Carál Ní Chuilín
North Belfast · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“To continue the theme of undermining public confidence and public effectiveness, I ask you this, Minister: why do you and your DUP colleagues continue to block the 'good jobs' Bill, particularly the measures for parents whose babies require neonatal care and, indeed, other measures that will support workers who are struggling with the cos…”
“At the end of the day, guns were used to kill Catholics — Davy Payne; surface-to-air missiles in South Africa and Paris and then some. I will give the deputy First Minister another opportunity not to deflect but to condemn her party's involvement in Ulster Resistance and with the red berets that they wore.”
“I thank the Minister for that response. I have a close family relative who is in need of a SPiMS unit in an Irish-medium school but cannot access one in North Belfast at all. Apart from access in P4 and P5, they will have to go to an English-speaking school, even though Irish is their first language.”
“You mentioned some of the issues that are important: trade union representation, the banning of zero-hours contracts and employees being able to have their tips and service charges. Anyone who cannot get behind these proposals needs to be clear — concerns for some, and hiding behind the industry for others.”
“First Minister, I know that, recently, you were in Ardoyne for the sod cutting of the new £3·4 million purpose-built youth facility for Ardoyne Youth Enterprise. Further to your response to Brian Kingston, can you give us an update on that project and, indeed, any others?”
“I agree 100%, Linda. That is something that we all agree on. We met many people. The Bill was published and was based on the report of the truth recovery process.”
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“The pensions landscape has changed significantly over recent years. As a result, the way in which people can save and access their pension savings has been transformed. Automatic enrolment has resulted in a significant increase in the number of people being enrolled in a workplace pension scheme. Master trusts have become a popular vehicle for employers, particularly small employers and microemployers seeking to enrol employees in an occupational pension scheme. <BR /> <BR />A master trust is a form of multi-employer occupational pension scheme for unconnected employers, where, instead of the employer setting up its own pension scheme, the scheme is provided by an external organisation that runs a pension scheme for numerous employers. <BR />Such schemes offer benefits to employers and members.”
“<BR /> <BR />This Bill, in its Final Stage, will mean that we will meet the commitment that most of us signed up to in New Decade, New Approach, because we could not have enabled the Co-ownership scheme to thrive without the financial transactions capital that it needed. Certainly, the housing associations and, indeed, more so, the Department, would face penalties of £3 million a month if this Bill does not go through. So, once again, I thank all the officials and everyone who brought this Bill to this stage for their contributions, and I commend the Bill to the House.”
“We talk about poverty, for someone who is on family or working tax credit, trying to pay their rent and not getting a house for years in north Belfast, west Belfast, Derry or right across. We all have really big pressures. <BR /> <BR />We need to be far more ambitious. As I said today, for me, it is the floor rather than the ceiling. I want to look at ways in which we can deliver more social housing. I want to look at surplus land and work with colleagues in the Executive to ensure that the infrastructure is there. I also want to look at opportunities for people to buy into different options to try to get the housing waiting list reduced.”
“<BR /> <BR />Not to rehearse all of the comments already made, but just under 7,500 homes over five years is quite disgraceful. That is on all of our watches and is quite disgraceful, given that there are 40,000 people on the housing waiting list and at least 26,000 in housing stress. That is a responsibility that we all have to step up to. Gone are the days when I had difficulties — I admit — around co-ownership because I felt that there should have been more options; I still feel that there needs to be more options. However, I know, from my own family and constituents — and we all get housing queries from constituents — that some families are paying £685 a month in rent to the private rented sector and some are paying £328 a month for a co-ownership mortgage.”
“When Members who have spoken, and even those who have not, read Hansard, I hope they will accept that, since the last debate, I tried to get answers to some of the queries that were raised then. I also tried to address some of the concerns that Mark Durkan raised through his amendments. I agree that, to proceed, we need the Housing Executive's house sales scheme. The difficulty with this is that they needed accelerated passage to meet the deadline. Other than that, I assume that this would have been taken forward just like any other legislation. Indeed, the less accelerated passage we use the better because, as MLAs and people who are looking at legislation, it should be the last resort rather than the first option. That has been accepted.”
“I appreciate every contribution that has been made. This process, albeit under accelerated passage, has been very inclusive. Even the debates that we had about our differences were done mostly in a measured way, and I do share some of the concerns.”
“As I have said previously, there is a huge need for investment in Housing Executive stock if we are to ensure that its homes are fit for the future. That is a much wider problem. I am sure that we will return to it at a future stage. <BR /> <BR />I want to acknowledge the many stakeholders who have been involved in the Bill. It is right that I offer my thanks for all their contributions, and also thank the Committee for Communities for its support in getting the Bill through the House by accelerated passage. <BR /> <BR />Finally, I want to thank those in the Department for Communities and indeed in the Assembly, and the various legal teams, who have worked on the Bill and enabled it to get to this stage. I hope that all parties can give the Bill their full support. I commend the Bill to the Assembly.”
“Receipts from its house sales scheme are returned to the Department each year for consideration in the context of funding in the wider Department for Communities budget. Receipts from Housing Executive house sales since 2008-09 have been in the region of £170 million. The level of receipts that the Housing Executive, through the Department's capital grant, can retain each year is determined by the Department, with the balance used to fund other departmental priorities. Any receipts that the Housing Executive may retain through capital grant are used by its landlord services to fund in part, along with its own rental income, improvements to its own stock. It is not used to finance new build programmes.”
“<BR /> <BR />In the previous debate on the Bill, we discussed the revenue that has been generated by the house sales schemes in the past and what has been done with the money raised. Capital receipts from housing association sales continue to provide funding which is used to deliver the social housing development programme. It must be reinvested in the provision of new social housing within two years, though associations can also use some of the capital that been generated to cover fees, such as solicitors' costs and valuation fees. The Housing Executive's available records indicate that £104 million has been generated by housing association sales, of which £89 million has been reinvested in new builds. <BR /> <BR />The position is different for the Housing Executive.”
“It is a far better outcome for the public purse, and for those people who are desperately in need of social housing, that this money comes via financial transaction capital (FTC), which it will be able to as a result of this Bill. <BR /> <BR />I am committed to do more to deliver for those who are in real need, and this Bill means that we are levering in all the financial resources we possibly can to make homes available to those in need. <BR /> <BR />The maintenance and, hopefully, expansion of those programmes will also help the construction industry. I think that all Members will agree that having a strong construction sector will help to support economic recovery as we move into the recovery phase of dealing with this horrible pandemic.”
“We have to allow a register of housing associations to provide homes for our most vulnerable and to operate the Affordable Homes programme, which provides a route into affordable home ownership for many. <BR /> <BR />Passing this legislation will protect those programmes and ensure that the social housing development programme, and the Co-ownership programme, can continue in the future. <BR /> <BR />Just last week, I announced a £10 million investment from my Department to enable the Co-ownership scheme to open up again to new customers, following a pause in applications since March, due to COVID-19. While I am glad to be able to support the Co-ownership scheme, it is worth remembering that that £10 million, in itself, is equivalent to the cost of 150 social homes.”
“Finally, the Bill proposes to end the statutory house sales schemes for housing associations and introduces a power to enable the Department to support a voluntary house sales scheme. <BR /> <BR />I also remind Members and, in particular, I want to reassure tenants, that the Bill will not see a decrease in the regulatory authority exercised by the housing regulator. It does not diminish the relationship between the tenant and the association, nor the tenant's ability to engage with the regulator. <BR /> <BR />The approach to the legislation has been based on the direction from the Executive in September 2016, and does only that which is necessary to achieve reversal of the ONS decision. The ONS's reclassification decision put at risk the financial arrangements.”
“That is why the sole focus of the Bill is to remove or amend those provisions in current housing legislation that provide for that control. <BR /> <BR />The Bill will replace current consent processes, for a number of functions carried out by housing associations, with a notifications process. It will more clearly frame the circumstances in which the housing regulator may launch an inquiry into the activities of a housing association, and provides that those must be based in failure, or suspected failure, to comply with legislation. The Bill removes the power of the Department to petition for the winding-up of an association, a power that was never used. Creditor bodies can still use this.”
“That supported what, I believe, is a correct conclusion: achieve reclassification safely and securely in the first instance through this Bill, and then address the Housing Executive sales scheme afterwards. My predecessor Deirdre Hargey and I committed to do that with all urgency. When my Department brings forward proposals for that scheme, it will be considered properly, in its own right and not as an add-on to a Bill proceeding under accelerated passage. <BR /> <BR />I remind the House why we need this legislation, and why we have worked, at speed, to put it in place. ONS determined in 2016 that housing associations should be classified as public sector because they observed a level of control of housing associations by the Executive through my Department.”
“<BR /> <BR />If we bring forward proposals with a different and broader objective, as I and my predecessor are committed to do, as part of a different Bill and a process that was considering how to maximise the supply of social housing, the courts would be more likely to consider abolition of the Housing Executive sales scheme as justified in the public interest and, hence, more likely to fit within the competence of the Assembly. <BR /> <BR />We should address the inequity between Housing Executive and housing association tenants. That is an issue on which the Department has been very transparent in the four years developing this legislation. The Department's consultations on the Bill explored the point exhaustively. They gave particular consideration to the issue of the Housing Executive sales scheme for that very reason.”
“There are good grounds to consider the abolition of the right to buy of Housing Executive tenants, but that needs its own policy justification. It simply cannot exist in a Bill that addresses a specific problem: the reclassification of housing associations. <BR /> <BR />Every Bill, once it has passed Final Stage and before it proceeds to Royal Assent, is passed to the Attorney General for him to consider whether it is within the competence of the Assembly as defined under section 6 of the NI Act. Should the Attorney General consider that the competence of the Assembly is in question, then, before the Bill proceeds to Royal Assent, the attorney may refer the Bill to the UK Supreme Court for a determination. In our current circumstances, this outcome would present a significant and costly delay to the Bill.”
“<BR /> <BR />The only supposed basis for abolishing the Housing Executive's sales scheme as part of this Bill was to prevent a challenge arising from the difference between the right to buy and those who rent from a housing association not being able to do so. However, no such challenge could be successful, because the reason for taking away the right to buy from housing association tenants simply does not exist in relation to Housing Executive tenants. Removing the right of housing association tenants is a clear and integral argument in achieving reclassification by ONS, and it requires the abolition of the housing associations' sales scheme. <BR /> <BR />A court is likely to consider that abolishing the Housing Executive's sales scheme through this Bill would unjustifiably interfere with its tenants.”
“That is because taking away the right that Housing Executive tenants currently have to purchase their home has the potential to engage article 1 of protocol 1 to the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR), the right to property. In a process driven by the pressing need for housing association reclassification, the abolition of the Housing Executive's sales scheme would interfere, without any clear reason, with that right to property. Any Assembly Bill provision that is incompatible with ECHR rights is not law, so the removal of the right to buy might be considered by a court not to have been effective.”
“The second issue that I want to address is what appears to be a misunderstanding of the role of the Office for National Statistics (ONS). Some Members referred to ONS having rejected the amendments. I can confirm that that is not the role of ONS. The decision on what is or is not included in the Bill is one for the Minister, the Executive and, indeed, the Assembly. ONS will simply review the reclassification decision once the legislation receives Royal Assent. <BR /> <BR />When I spoke about the possibility of legal challenge, that was not about ONS. To be clear, it was about the risk that the Member for Foyle Mark Durkan had raised in his proposed amendments. I believe that the inclusion in the Bill of provisions to abolish the Housing Executive's sales scheme would cause a legislative competence problem.”
“Thanks very much for that clarification: it was almost an invitation to Members to add their name to the list and talk for as long as they want. I assure Members that I want to cover only the issues that are pertinent to the Bill and to provide clarification on issues raised in the previous debate. It is important that people get that clarification. <BR /> <BR />As I was saying, Members raised a concern, as did I, about the very late publication of the report on the two consultations on reclassification. During the Consideration Stage debate, I said that I would establish what happened, and I have done so. I wrote to the Chair of the Committee for Communities asking that an explanation be provided, and I will share the response:”
“I welcome the further opportunity to speak about the Bill and why it is important for the future of our social and affordable housing programmes. Before I speak to the Bill generally, I would like to address a couple of issues that were raised in previous debates.”
“I beg to introduce the Pension Schemes Bill [NIA 07/17-22], which is a Bill to make provision about pension schemes.”
“I will take the last point first. The priority slots in supermarkets are important. Some supermarkets in north Belfast are keen to do that post-COVID, particularly for people working in education and health, but certainly for the elderly and children with autism. <BR /> <BR />In north Belfast, and I hate using north Belfast as an example, there is a lot of need and a lot of food was delivered. I am unaware of people getting food who did not need it. I am not saying that it does not happen, but I am not aware of it. <BR />Do we need to tighten things up? Absolutely. We need to ensure that people who did not get, do get. That is where we are all coming from. Whatever the lessons and experiences, that is one of the things we will look at coming out of this.”
“The answer is yes, even though it has nothing to do with food. Yes, I saw the letter. We saw it at the Committee. It was detailed, so we are certainly looking at it. Again, it is about the Executive's five-stage recovery plan and how we can move forward. I fully understand the absolute pressure that the arts sector is under. It is about people's livelihoods, and people are having to go to food banks, so there is a connection — they are going to food banks. So, I understand.”
“We discussed that at the Communities Committee and were really frustrated that some very vulnerable people had only got their shielding letters. We were worried that they were invisible, by and large. They had good community networks and neighbours, but if they lived in an isolated or rural area, such as Rosemary represents, that is a fear for us all. I will be having conversations with the Department of Health to try to ensure that something like that does not happen again.”
“We were told that 40,000 people received shielding letters, and that figure more than doubled. In my constituency, people got their first shielding letter only four weeks ago, never mind the continuation letter. Granted, they were helped out by neighbours, but without their neighbours' vigilance, they may have been ignored. <BR /> <BR />I understand what the Member is saying. That is the sort of lesson that we need to build into the review to ensure that those people are not missed a second time. For those shielding, the food boxes are continuing until 31 July. After that, we need to look at other opportunities for support.”
“My Department is seeking to target and help those in most need. I am sure the Member has listened. The food parcel service has been critical and, in particular, has delivered to people who are vulnerable or have been shielded through notification from their GP. The boxes have also been available to people who are not shielding, but who are in critical need of food. People are able to request support through the COVID-19 community helpline. A triage system is operated locally through helplines to assess the needs of a person, regardless of whether they are shielding or non-shielding, or have already received support through other networks, such as family and friends.”
“We cannot lose sight of those connections and friendships that will, hopefully, endure well beyond the crisis.”
“The answer is yes: it definitely can be built upon. In North Belfast — my constituency, and Paula's — we had soup deliveries from north to west Belfast, from the New Lodge to the Shankill. Relationships, which had always been there and had worked through the most difficult times, shone throughout the pandemic. On Sundays, people on the Shankill made all the soup for the residents; roast chicken and roast beef were cooked in another kitchen; and the youth clubs tried to put it all together and deliver it safely. There were lots of groups involved. People from GAA clubs, soccer clubs and Scout groups, for instance, were out delivering. You would not have got that effort in the absence of a crisis, despite the fact that they all do good work.”
“It is important to recognise the individual acts of kindness shown by many people: checking on their neighbours; picking up their neighbours' messages; chatting to each other across the fence; walking their neighbours' dogs, or whatever it has been. Those strong communities and strong bonds have been crucial throughout the emergency, and we will continue to ensure that their significance and contribution is recognised as we, hopefully, move into the recovery phase.”
“During the crisis, volunteers have been critical to the success of community-level response. They have been involved in a wide range of activities to support vulnerable people, from providing practical support, delivering food, delivering prescriptions and collecting shopping, through to providing emotional and well-being support. Sporting organisations and faith-based groups have stood out for their contribution. They have played a massive role, as have some businesses in their volunteering role. <BR /> <BR />Sporting organisations have been key stakeholders throughout the crisis. I commend everyone who has volunteered, particularly the grassroots organisations. In many ways, volunteers have been the first responders during the crisis.”
“Everybody knows what they do not want to do again, but we need to put a plan on paper for what we will need to do post-COVID, and, God forbid, if we ever go through a second wave of this, to ensure that we are in a better position than we were in March.”
“That is not good enough, to be honest with you. We all have dignity, and nobody wants to get out-of-date bread. There is a message when you get that: you feel like an afterthought, despite all of the good efforts and good heart behind it. I hear that. <BR /> <BR />What lessons can be learned? We have to learn lessons regarding access to some of the supports under the social supermarkets. They are looking at fresh fruit, fresh meat and fresh bread. We are all entitled to fresh food. Lessons will be learned. If we go into a second quarter, councils will be taking forward the support for money, but it is also about due diligence.”
“An enhancement to discretionary support was quickly put in place and over 99% of all universal credit claims have been paid on time each week, despite the caseload almost doubling.”
“<BR /> <BR />I mentioned earlier, and the Member was present, that access to food has been one of the most critical elements to the emergency response. Access to medication is also particularly important for those who are shielding and those who support them. In partnership with the Department of Health, we helped match over 250 community pharmacies with voluntary and community groups that have delivered over 34,000 prescriptions. A further partnership has also seen the launch of a virtual well-being hub, providing mental health and well-being resources and support for those impacted by the crisis. <BR /> <BR />Throughout the response, the Department has ensured that financial assistance is successfully provided to those impacted by the pandemic.”
“I thank the Member for his question and I also thank all those who have been involved in what has been a really great community effort. <BR /> <BR />Minister Hargey responded quickly. On 20 March she established an emergencies response leadership group. The group, which includes local grassroots community groups as well as the wider voluntary and community sector, has worked side by side with the Department, health and social care trusts, and local councils to ensure that tailored support is in place for the most vulnerable. The speed at which that cross-sectoral partnership approach was developed was particularly important. The COVID-19 community helpline was launched on 27 March, only a few days after shielding was announced.”
“<BR /> <BR />As well as looking at contractor arrangements, I am also looking at reports about the staff side representatives and allied health professions who are needed. We need to unlock that; people are waiting too long. To be honest, their lives are miserable and I do not think that any of us want that on our watch.”
“To be honest, I cannot say I am confident yet, because I have not looked at all the details. I assure the Member that she should be confident that I will certainly make that a priority. That is the only commitment that I can give. <BR /> <BR />As well as the backlog I outlined, she and other Members will be aware that there has been a backlog in occupational therapists (OTs) doing the assessments that are passed on to the housing providers, either the Housing Executive or housing associations, so that adaptions can be carried out. Meanwhile, people who have to go from one place to another, for example the kitchen or the bathroom, are in sheer agony. Their quality of life has reduced, so I am with her. I want to make sure that we make the process as smooth and streamlined as possible, so that we are not sitting in this situation again.”
“While good progress has been made, there are still backlogs following the insolvency of a consultant who previously provided much of this work, along with other external factors. <BR /> <BR />To mitigate that kind of ripple effect from contractor insolvency in the future, the Housing Executive has gone to tender with the larger contractor framework, and is hoping to attract a larger pool of contractors, in order to limit the need for further procurement through the duration of any new contract framework.”
“This is an important issue for my Department and me. On my behalf, it was raised by the permanent secretary, and I will discuss it with the chair and the chief executive of the Housing Executive at the forthcoming accountability meeting. <BR /> <BR />Prior to COVID-19 and the subsequent lockdown, the Housing Executive took forward a pilot scheme with a view to streamlining a major adaptions process. Following the success of that pilot in the south region, the Housing Executive mirrored that approach in the north region, with timescales for improvement in both cases. In the 12 months prior to lockdown, the Housing Executive moved towards recruiting additional staff resources to undertake the design element of adaptions in-house. That has been proven to increase the quality and has definitely improved the time frames.”
“<BR /> <BR />I know that my Department and that of my colleague Edwin Poots could work on extending regeneration schemes to towns and villages, right down to small rural places of fewer than 5,000 people. I will certainly look at it and write to the Member to give her an update on what is happening in her constituency.”
“I will look at the portfolio of regeneration schemes. As a former Minister, the Member will appreciate that I want to look at that, because I am aware that, in an area that she did not mention — Bangor — there has been ongoing regeneration. However, that is not to say that the rest of that constituency does not have bids or calls in. It is important that we use whatever time we have now to make sure that the i's are dotted and the t's are crossed, so that, when we go back to normal — whatever that may look like — we do not waste time doing things that we could have done earlier to speed the process. I will certainly look at what regeneration programmes there are.”
“The Department is willing to make those available, where it can be helpful, to support safe queuing, social distancing or to provide spill-out spaces for clubs, cafés, bars and restaurants. I am also grateful to my Executive colleague the Minister for Infrastructure, Nichola Mallon, as we have written to all councils asking them, as planning authorities, to take a flexible, pragmatic approach to the use of street seating.”
“I acknowledge the contribution that the hospitality sector makes to the economy and to society more generally. I am keen to see that sector play its part in the safe recovery from COVID-19. <BR /> <BR />The outdoor spaces close to hotels, bars, restaurants and cafés could be utilised to maximise opportunities for businesses to deliver their services while ensuring the safety of staff and customers. I also emphasise that the needs of our citizens who are partially sighted or have disabilities or other mobility issues should be foremost in our minds when making any changes to our streets. <BR /> <BR />The Department for Communities owns a number of public spaces in our towns and cities as well as sites that have been acquired for regeneration purposes.”
“I remember it well, because I was on the Committee for Communities. We, particularly Jonny, remember the explosion almost of people who had had very little time to put their application in before the whole thing closed. Governing bodies are key. Any sport affiliated to a governing body providing advice, guidance and information is supported by Sport NI. It makes sense that Sport NI would use governing bodies to help to disseminate information and to support them so that, if they apply, they are in a good place. To be honest with you, in relation to previous questions, I think that a lot of local sports clubs, not so much the governing bodies, have been outstanding throughout this period, because they are all citizens and residents. They have experienced great hardship, yet, despite that, they have rolled their sleeves up and got stuck in.”
“I can advise that I have submitted a bid through the June monitoring round to help to prepare for further assistance to the sports sector. My officials continue to work with Sport NI on the return-to-sport framework, which provides vital guidance to sports' governing bodies as they develop their protocols for a safe return to sport.”
“The Department and Sport NI have provided both financial and practical support to the sector, including advice on accessing COVID-related relief programmes, maintaining the health and well-being of members and putting together specific protocols for a safe return to sport. In terms of financial support, Sport NI immediately paid the sector grants that were due under existing programmes. The Department and Sport NI launched the sports hardship fund, which now totals £1·245 million. That will enable 620 clubs to receive a £2,000 grant to assist with the cost of maintaining their facilities. In addition, Minister Hargey made the case for clubs to be included in the eligibility criteria for the £25,000 hospitality, retail, leisure and tourism scheme.”
“I will have a look. I agree: I do not think that anybody wants patchiness, where one area gets a really good service and another area gets a half-decent service. Regardless of where your constituency is, regardless of who the citizens are, they deserve the very best that we can provide for them. I will try to find out, and I will write to the Member. If he wants to share that correspondence with the officials up in the office, I will try to get him a quick response.”
“<BR /> <BR />As part of the transition from an emergency response, Deirdre Hargey decided to extend the food parcels beyond 26 June for people currently receiving a food box who have been told to shield by their GPs and have no other access to food. That support will be available for those who are medically shielding and in need of a food box until the end of July. For those who are not medically shielding, the Department recently made allocations of £1·5 million in support to councils. That enables them to make a significant contribution to those in need of food, income and connectedness. Furthermore, DFC, as the Member may be aware, has been delivering the social supermarkets pilot programme as part of its welfare mitigations package.”
“The Member has probably listened to some of the previous answers, so, if it sounds a bit repetitive, I apologise. <BR /> <BR />Access to the food programme, as the Member will know, has proven to be one of the key elements of our emergency response during the current pandemic. More than 150,000 food boxes have been delivered to those most in need since my Department launched its COVID-19 food parcel service in April. Alongside that, allocations of £1·5 million of financial support to councils have enabled a significant community response to those in need of food, income and connectedness. I am aware that there are a number of people across the community who currently rely on regular food parcels from DFC and are likely to continue to require its support when the present crisis ends.”