Carál Ní Chuilín
North Belfast · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“To continue the theme of undermining public confidence and public effectiveness, I ask you this, Minister: why do you and your DUP colleagues continue to block the 'good jobs' Bill, particularly the measures for parents whose babies require neonatal care and, indeed, other measures that will support workers who are struggling with the cos…”
“At the end of the day, guns were used to kill Catholics — Davy Payne; surface-to-air missiles in South Africa and Paris and then some. I will give the deputy First Minister another opportunity not to deflect but to condemn her party's involvement in Ulster Resistance and with the red berets that they wore.”
“I thank the Minister for that response. I have a close family relative who is in need of a SPiMS unit in an Irish-medium school but cannot access one in North Belfast at all. Apart from access in P4 and P5, they will have to go to an English-speaking school, even though Irish is their first language.”
“You mentioned some of the issues that are important: trade union representation, the banning of zero-hours contracts and employees being able to have their tips and service charges. Anyone who cannot get behind these proposals needs to be clear — concerns for some, and hiding behind the industry for others.”
“First Minister, I know that, recently, you were in Ardoyne for the sod cutting of the new £3·4 million purpose-built youth facility for Ardoyne Youth Enterprise. Further to your response to Brian Kingston, can you give us an update on that project and, indeed, any others?”
“I agree 100%, Linda. That is something that we all agree on. We met many people. The Bill was published and was based on the report of the truth recovery process.”
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“I am really sorry to hear that, Gerry. Pass my sympathies and thoughts on to the family. I am not aware of the answer, but, when I am asking for the data that Andy asked for, I will ask for that as well. The last thing that should happen is that someone's grief be compounded by a letter, either successful or unsuccessful, coming out after a loved one has passed.”
“I thank the Member for her question. That is certainly one of the issues that I am considering. It comes up time and time again from the independent advice sector, as well as from GPs, social workers, family support workers and a whole range of others. I absolutely will consider that, and, as I said to Kellie Armstrong, I think that it would be more human rights-compliant and more humane if that were allowed to happen.”
“We perhaps need to use this opportunity, if it is appropriate to call it that, to do things a bit differently and make sure that there are better outcomes for people who are waiting on good decisions.”
“Fair play to you. I do not have the answers to the first two questions, but I will certainly get the Member the data that he has asked for. It is probably here somewhere, but it certainly did not jump out at me. I will get that response to you. <BR /> <BR />I have said this to others, but, as the Member will be aware from his constituency, going through the appeals process is very stressful. The last thing that we need is for people's stress levels to be increased, and we do not want the appeal to impact on other benefits and entitlements. We therefore need to make sure that it is done as smoothly as possible. That sounds like an easy thing to do, and it should be an easy thing to do, but the backlog is such that we need to tackle it head-on.”
“I thank the Member for his three supplementary questions.”
“I completely agree with the Member on all of the points that she raised. If people are doing video calls and have hearing impairments, they should absolutely, under disability law, which should be human rights-compliant as strongly as possible, have an interpreter there, even for those who have difficulty communicating. The other aspect is that we need to make sure that, particularly as I said to Nicola, this process is as stress-free as possible, so I am looking at alternatives. I met the Participation and the Practice of Rights group (PPR) last week, and that was one of the issues that was on the human rights checklist that it is asking us to bring forward.”
“I welcome the Member to the Assembly and wish her all the very best. The least favourite — also in response to Daniel McCrossan, as both of you share the same constituency — is probably the desktop. We are looking at video and telephone calls to try to assist people, because it is very stressful applying for this benefit, and it is even more stressful appealing it. We need to make sure that it is as smooth and stress-free as possible when people are applying for a PIP appeal.”
“I agree with the Member that there was a backlog prior to COVID and that COVID has not helped at all. I have asked officials to try to expedite ways in which people can have their appeals heard. Many people are not comfortable with a desktop review and are looking for telephony, should that be a video call or a phone call. Some have the opportunity for face-to-face, but it is important that we get not only the pre-COVID backlog addressed, but also the backlog since. I suspect that the figure that you have quoted has actually increased since that response was given.”
“I thank the Member for his question. For the period of 1 April 2019 to 31 March 2020, there were 3,779 successful PIP appeals and 2,201 unsuccessful appeals. Therefore, 63% of PIP appeals were successful in 2019-20. For the period of 1 April 2020 to 31 October 2020, there were 104 successful PIP appeals and 133 unsuccessful appeals. Therefore, for the seven months up to 31 October, 44% of PIP appeals have been successful. As a result of the COVID-19 pandemic, no appeals were listed for hearing between 18 March 2020 and 6 July 2020. Since then, a limited number of appeals have been listed for hearing.”
“The payment is better than £500. The £500 or €350 are fixed and taxable. If £100, €100 or €140 is taken for tax, the payment is less. If, for example, a couple has three children, they can receive £683 for the 14-day period of one isolation. If the same family has to isolate six or seven weeks later, they can expect to receive the same amount of support. That is not the case elsewhere. As long as the pandemic continues and more families are impacted by COVID, at least, once they have to isolate — I have heard of families having to isolate two and three times — we can ensure that we support them. We are asking them to follow government guidelines, so we need to make sure that the support is there, be it discretionary support, business support or whatever. If there is hardship, we need to get support out to people.”
“Rather than waiting on a perfect fit, we need to get it changed, get it out, get it clarified, and, hopefully, people will get the support that they need.”
“I received AME, so it is an AME issue rather than a Barnett issue because it is benefits related, so the money is there. If I understand the Member's question properly, there were issues regarding clarity over whether it was a grant or a loan. We all heard too many stories about people who felt that it was a loan and they did not want to get into any more debt. <BR /> <BR />The issue is that we, as a Government, are asking people to self-isolate, but we cannot ask people to self-isolate and not support them. That is the bottom line. So, that is what we are trying to do. Will there be lessons learned as a result of this? I am sure that there will be. It is like anything that we bring forward. We need to accept the good parts, change the parts that do not work and try to make it better in the future.”
“I agree that there are issues with the app even for people who get confirmation of a negative or positive test result. The fact that they have gone to get a test means that they have concerns. <BR /> <BR />With regard to Trevor's question, we want to make sure that employers are adhering to that good practice because we are asking people who have any symptoms to isolate straight away, but we cannot ask people to follow government guidance and then have their salaries deducted because they have to wait for two days for a result from the app. We need to make sure that the app is better, but I want to make sure that, when people apply for the payment, they get it as quickly as possible and they are not held back by further bureaucracy that is not of their making.”
“I will carry out the review as quickly as possible and look at the questions that have been raised, and I will put the officials on notice. I want to get the data, and, following Pat Catney's question, I will try to capture the data from people who were rejected. <BR /> <BR />As the Member will be aware, Deirdre Hargey increased the threshold. If I need to do that, and if I can do that, I will look to do that. People may think that £20,400 is a decent enough wage, but if that is your only income and you are paying all your bills and rearing your kids, it all adds up. So, we need to ensure that people who need the support get the support, and we will find out very shortly if the level of income needs to be increased because if it prevented people getting access to support, it is a problem that we need to look at.”
“The issue that I have always had with the fragility of zero-hours contracts in particular is that people are even more vulnerable and more susceptible to exploitation, if any employer is minded to do that, or, for want of a better term, if any employer wants to chance their arm. Employees have rights, and we will remind them of the rights that they have. If there are any indications or examples of workers feeling that they have not been given the due respect or, indeed, the due entitlement from their employer, I will certainly welcome hearing who they are and where their employer is. I would be happy to share that information with the Member's colleague Diane Dodds, because I am sure that she would not have that either.”
“The support is taxable in other jurisdictions, including the South. It is also for a fixed period in other jurisdictions, which it is not here. Indeed, the difficulty that I have, certainly with the other jurisdictions, is that they are giving it to people with one hand and taking it off them with the other. That is grossly unjust and grossly unfair.”
“I do not have that information. It is 14,800 people, Pat, so it is almost 15,000. I do not have the information about how many people were unsuccessful in terms of data from the Department. I have the anecdotal evidence. I have the people who are reaching out by email on our Assembly email, my constituency office and, indeed, on social media to tell me different, so there is an issue. When we get through this, we will start clicking through each of the questions that have been raised and will put this one down for clarification. If we have that data, I will certainly share it with the Member.”
“We are all living in each other's shadow, as we should be, but one Department should not be ringing another Department to find out what this is about; everybody should have the same level of consistency about this information.”
“I thank the Member for her question, and she is right: it is a lifeline. As MLAs with, I am sure, a busy constituency office, we have all got the distressed phone calls, and our constituency staff have as well. Through the Executive information website and our discussions with colleagues in Health and the PHA we are genuinely trying to ensure that there are no gaps. As I mentioned in response to Mark Durkan's question, that is on my list for discussions with officials just to be sure, to be sure. I have heard too many reports of people still feeling that this is a loan and that is why they did not apply, so something has gone wrong. We need to ensure that any clarification that is needed is provided after the statement this morning and that every aspect of government is aware of it.”
“I really hope that there is an increase in people making applications, because, while almost 15,000 have done so up until now, we know that there are many others who are out of work, self-isolating, impacted and affected by COVID. I hope that there are no further delays. As I said to other Members, if you or anybody else has concerns or are hearing reports that there are undue delays, then get in contact with us. That is not what we want, it is not what I or the officials want — they are processing the applications as quickly as they can to get money into people's bank accounts and pockets as quickly as they need them.”
“I thank the Member for his sentiments. As I said in the statement, people can apply for this when they need it. Unfortunately, due to the length of the pandemic, some people have had to isolate at least once; others a lot more than that. It is a non-taxable grant. Therefore, it should not impact on tax credits. We need to make sure that what we give on one hand is seen in the other. That is not the case across other jurisdictions and we do not want that to happen. Many people who are on tax credits are already on a low income. We need to ensure that, after their application and when this support is given to them, they know exactly what they are getting and exactly what they have.”
“I thank the Member for her question. For each change that is made regarding this or any other support, the decision makers will have it again and again and again, because we need to ensure that consistent information is going out. Yes, there is enough money in the budget, for now. The important thing is that, between now and the new year, we need to try to give people support to self-isolate. As the Chair of the Committee said, there are people who are making the decision to not self-isolate because they cannot afford to. We know that the rate of people who have to self-isolate, or who are impacted by COVID, has not abated in the way that we would have hoped. We need to try to support people to stay at home and it is our obligation to do that.”
“I am told by officials that applications are being processed as quickly as possible. However, in my constituency office and on social media, I have received reports to say that that is not the case across the board. My commitment to all of you is that I will review this on an almost weekly basis. I need to ensure that those who need access to these payments get them, and get them in a timely fashion when they need it most. I urge Members to please let me know if they hear any reports to the contrary.”
“You will know this as a member of the Committee, but, even though this Assembly accepted legislation brought forward to increase the threshold, I am looking to see what I can do within my vires to make it easier for those people who need it most, particularly going into the winter months and particularly if they are at home, where they are eating more and heating more. We need to make it easy for people, not only to get access to the grant but to ensure that they qualify for it.”
“I thank the Member for his question. He will be aware that Deirdre Hargey increased the threshold, and I am going to look at it again. You are right in the sense that we need to have more people applying for the grant, because they need it, but we also need to make sure that it is going to be supportive: that it will be a help rather than a hindrance. I will be talking to officials again this afternoon, and one of the questions that I will be asking them is whether we can do it without impacting on parity.”
“The first step is to remind people that this help is out there today, because it is quite clear that, although many people — almost 15,000 — have applied for discretionary support, there are many others who are completely unaware of it or who think that it is a loan rather than a grant. We are all hearing that in our constituency offices. From today therefore, having made the statement, I will also ensure that our media outlets, our advice and welfare networks and, indeed, our constituency offices all have this statement, because they, particularly our constituency offices, are usually the first point of contact for many people. When people contact us, particularly about something like this, they are in distress, so we need to minimise that for people who need our support.”
“I thank the Chair for her question. She will know that there have been problems with the test-and-trace app. I have to say, however, that the Department is working with people on the basis of need and what they ask for as part of their application process. If, like with any other benefit, it is later found that there were fraudulent claims, we will have to deal with those, but, up until now, most people who have contacted the Department have been genuine cases. As you said in the preamble to your question, a lot of those people are working two jobs — at least — and if they have to self-isolate, this is a lifeline for them. I therefore imagine that most of the claims, if not them all, are completely genuine, and that is the approach that we will be taking.”
“People should be supported to isolate if they need to without fear of going under or being further penalised financially. That is why I have improved the level and duration of financial support that is available to those who are eligible to apply for it. I will continue to keep that under review, and I would welcome Members' feedback as we need to make sure that we keep providing support where and when it is needed.”
“<BR /> <BR />I stress again that if people continue to find themselves in a crisis situation after receiving a self-isolation grant, they can apply for further support. There is no limit to the number of grants that can be awarded. I also believe strongly that the enhancements that have been introduced to the scheme are another important step in strengthening an already comprehensive package of support. <BR /> <BR />To conclude, the discretionary support self-isolation grant is a very important and accessible means of providing financial support to those who are affected by COVID when they need it most. We know that COVID-19 has widened the gap in our communities and impacted people differently, and it has had a disastrous impact on the people and families who were already struggling.”
“That means that, rather than making a fixed payment that does not take account of the size of a family, we will always take into account all dependent children and include them in an award. For example, under the new rules, a couple with three children can receive £683 of discretionary support to cover a period of 14 days. That payment is not taxable and further awards can be made if the family continues to find themselves in a crisis situation. Those payments will also not affect any future applications to the discretionary support scheme. The self-isolation payments can be made if a person is self-isolating because they or someone else in their household is displaying symptoms. Entitlement is not restricted to those who have been contacted and told to self-isolate.”
“<BR /> <BR />I believe firmly that the discretionary support self-isolation grant offers an enhanced overall package when compared to other areas. For example, the Irish Government have provided support for people who are required to self-isolate that is based on a fixed weekly payment and treated as taxable income. In England, Scotland and Wales, the test-and-trace payment offers fixed amounts of £500 for 14 days, regardless of family circumstances, and the payment is available only to those who have been told to self-isolate by the NHS Test and Trace service. They must prove that they are unable to work and have lost income as a result. The payment is also taxable. <BR /> <BR />The self-isolation payments that are available here are targeted at those who are in need and are always assessed based on their personal circumstances.”
“The changes that I have made are designed to enhance the level of financial support that is available through the self-isolation grant. It is hoped that that will be of particular benefit to people who are temporarily unable to work. <BR /> <BR />In practical terms, my Department will now use higher daily rates of benefit when calculating the amount of an award. Decision makers will also be expected to take into account the impact of the financial shock of self-isolation when calculating the number of days for which to make an award. That is appropriate as a sudden and temporary reduction in normal income levels will mean that a person is at greater risk of experiencing hardship. Therefore, an award of living expenses to cover the whole period of self-isolation should always be considered.”
“The latest available information shows that, between 25 March and 31 October 2020, my Department awarded 14,800 self-isolation grants with a total value of £2·1 million. That is money going directly to people who have found themselves in a crisis situation during the pandemic. However, it is clear that we all continue to face unprecedented challenges as the effects of the pandemic show little signs of abating. Therefore, it is essential that we continue to monitor the support that we can provide to ensure that we help the people who need it most. <BR /> <BR />I have decided that it is appropriate to introduce some enhancements to the scheme. Those changes do not require new legislation, and I have, therefore, instructed my officials to implement the revised policy immediately.”
“<BR /> <BR />We introduced a new discretionary support self-isolation grant for people who have been diagnosed with COVID-19 or are advised to self-isolate in accordance with official guidance. With the introduction of that new grant scheme on 25 March 2020, we ensured that people in the North who are on a low income were amongst the first to be able to access specific financial support. There simply has been no comparable support available to most people in Britain. <BR /> <BR />I am pleased to note that the rapid response of the Assembly in approving the necessary changes to the discretionary support legislation, alongside the effort of my Department in implementing the changes, has had a very real and direct impact on so many people. That is clearly evident by the extent of the support already made available.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I want to update the House today on some of the measures that my party colleague Deirdre Hargey instigated as Minister for Communities to ensure that the Department for Communities could support people who are affected by COVID-19. <BR /> <BR />As Members will be aware, as part of the response to the current pandemic, my Department introduced a number of emergency changes to the discretionary support scheme. Those measures included increasing the maximum income that a person can receive before becoming ineligible for discretionary support. This means that anybody with an income of up to £20,405, whether they are in work or receiving benefits, may be eligible for a payment.”
“I agree. I think that it was Mark who raised the issue of the BBC saying that it was 2022: it is 2021. Perish the thought that the BBC is wrong. <BR /> <BR />I understand that this is an opportunity for some of the smaller parties and the independents to have longer speaking time. I respect that. I also respect the fact that that is what legislation looks like. I have no issue with that. <BR /> <BR />I do not want to be disrespectful to Members, but I cannot answer some of the questions individually. I will endeavour, through the passage of time, to get you responses. I ask the Assembly to approve the Bill's Second Stage.”
“By bringing together some of the commonality, we can bring that down to a few, and I will share them with the Committee.”
“No, I do not need it. I am only going to be 10 minutes. Thank you anyway. I will just stand here and not move. <BR /> <BR />Many good suggestions have been made. Liquor licensing modernisation has been a long time coming. I make it clear that this is about pub opening hours, not Christianity. I believe in complete separation of church and state: end of. We make laws for everyone, not just Christians. <BR /> <BR />I remind Members that minimum alcohol unit pricing is the responsibility of Health, and I have spoken to Minister Swann about that. I will also speak to Minister Long and anybody else who will look after workers, tackle zero-hours contracts and look at the issues. I have listed the surrender issue quite a lot. My colleagues in the Department have taken notes, and I will read Hansard. I counted about 64 questions.”
“I will say no more than that. <BR /> <BR />I also need to go to the bathroom. I have been sitting here from 2.45 pm, and I ask that we look at the facility for a break. I notice that the top Table has changed and rightly so. However, I am afraid to drink water. I want you to look at that as well.”
“Members will be delighted that I will not go through every point. For the questions that some Members asked, I will need to look at Hansard and get back to them. I also want to say that the Bill has not been through the Committee yet. All these great ideas should go in front of the Committee for the Bill to be amended. That is what the Committee is for. <BR /> <BR />Frankly, I need a drink after listening to half of you. I am of the opinion that, if some of you were pints of Guinness, you would drink yourselves”
“Maybe, when I give you the figures, we can go back to the Bill. The PSNI has not given figures, and I would expect it to give figures. As soon as I get any of those figures, I will share them with you and the rest of the Assembly because it is an important point.”
“I will get the Member that information and detail. Unfairly, some families are being reared in houses where they have been impacted by respiratory conditions resulting from the conditions that they live in. That is a disgrace. I know that the Housing Executive is completely uncomfortable with that as well. I will get the detail and the information that she has asked for.”
“I know that the Member knows this, but the restriction to emergency repairs has created a wider gap in the maintenance programme. I will get a response to the Member, because I am also keen to find out exactly what the figure is.”
“I will get the exact figure for the Member, because it has changed. It has changed because, as we mentioned earlier, there have been procurement challenges in some areas that have put back maintenance contracts. The threshold for challenging procurement contracts is so low that anyone with 250 quid can go into a court to object to millions of pounds of procurement to alleviate some of the worst conditions that people are living in. That is a disgrace. As I say, I will get the Member the exact figure. <BR /> <BR />The Housing Executive has brought forward a pilot scheme in its southern region that has brought the procurement list down by 40-odd weeks. I am willing to learn lessons from that and bring them forward.”
“I want to make something clear: the fact that Casement Park has overrun in cost does not mean that that overrun will transfer to the subregional programme. That would be completely unrealistic. Does the subregional fund need more money? It does. When the final business case is done, I will see what money I have left to allocate from that fund, as well as any potential for additional money.”
“I am looking at the final business case for the subregional football programme. It has been a long time in the making. There had been variations to consultations and plans. They have been reworked and amended, but, hopefully, the final business case will be completed in the coming months. I hope to announce that as soon as I get everything else sorted.”
“I will get an update from Sport NI, but I was encouraged to hear its chief executive, Antoinette McKeown, make it clear that, because of the nature of the fund and the hardship that groups in the sporting family have endured throughout the pandemic, she wants to get the funding open and available to them as soon as possible, as do I.”
“I thank the Member for her important question; I have been asked it a few times. To be fair to governing bodies, they need to apply for it in their own right, as do the grassroots groups. I do not imagine that any governing body will want to take responsibility for dealing with applications from loads of clubs in their sector. Anyone, be that a small group or a large governing body, can apply to the hardship fund in their own right.”
“It is not a football club, but, in my constituency, Ardoyne GAA, along with people from a community food bank, were up to all hours of the morning delivering food parcels for kids in deprived areas, and I know that Crusaders and Cliftonville football clubs, which are also in my constituency, have done the same. I know that that is replicated right across, so I want to give clubs as much support as possible.”
“I agree, and I put on record my appreciation and thanks, on behalf of us all, for the work that those clubs have done on the ground from the start of the pandemic.”