Carál Ní Chuilín
North Belfast · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“To continue the theme of undermining public confidence and public effectiveness, I ask you this, Minister: why do you and your DUP colleagues continue to block the 'good jobs' Bill, particularly the measures for parents whose babies require neonatal care and, indeed, other measures that will support workers who are struggling with the cos…”
“At the end of the day, guns were used to kill Catholics — Davy Payne; surface-to-air missiles in South Africa and Paris and then some. I will give the deputy First Minister another opportunity not to deflect but to condemn her party's involvement in Ulster Resistance and with the red berets that they wore.”
“I thank the Minister for that response. I have a close family relative who is in need of a SPiMS unit in an Irish-medium school but cannot access one in North Belfast at all. Apart from access in P4 and P5, they will have to go to an English-speaking school, even though Irish is their first language.”
“You mentioned some of the issues that are important: trade union representation, the banning of zero-hours contracts and employees being able to have their tips and service charges. Anyone who cannot get behind these proposals needs to be clear — concerns for some, and hiding behind the industry for others.”
“First Minister, I know that, recently, you were in Ardoyne for the sod cutting of the new £3·4 million purpose-built youth facility for Ardoyne Youth Enterprise. Further to your response to Brian Kingston, can you give us an update on that project and, indeed, any others?”
“I agree 100%, Linda. That is something that we all agree on. We met many people. The Bill was published and was based on the report of the truth recovery process.”
The complete record
Every one of 2,734 lines we hold for Carál Ní Chuilín, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 5 of 55.
“I do. If you notice, I used a different phrase — "genuine concerns" — about housing. The term "legitimate concerns" has been used as a catch-all phrase for not calling racism out, frankly, and that is the bottom line. Indulging the Loyalist Communities Council (LCC) and hearing its "legitimate concerns" about housing and education has been nothing short of pathetic, and it adds to the feeling that there is access for some but none for others, and that needs to be called out. <BR /> <BR />Is the LCC a legitimate group? Yes, it absolutely is, but the police said that loyalist paramilitaries were involved in the riots during the summer. The police said that in public, at the Committee and at subsequent meetings. Let us not let on that they were not involved.”
“Rather than listen to the concerns that people have about childcare, schools, housing, community safety, their ability to feel free and their ability to grow and resource their own areas, we get taken down a road in working-class areas, where there has been a concentration of people who have made this place their home, even if it is temporary. It is not the Executive; it is the British Home Office through Mears, and Migrant Help needs to do more.”
“I appreciate your intervention. It is quite timely. However, there is something even more sinister in that. I think that it all depends on the colour of the people who have immigrated here. We need to call that out. I know that Gerry did not mean what he said, but some of us consider ourselves to be decent working-class people as well. Working-class communities have faced the brunt of deprivation and being starved of money for decades. They are the communities that constantly feel the worst impact. What do we do?”
“<BR /> <BR />The term "legitimate concerns" has become a watchword for saying, "Yes, there was racialism, but we have concerns too". I have never once heard the Tory Government being blamed for a lack of Budget here or the lack of money to access GPs and to help with housing.”
“Their lived experience needs to be heard. When we spoke to statutory bodies, including the PSNI, about what happened in the summer and what we can do to prevent something like that happening again, the issue of resources came up time and time again, as did our attitudes, particularly in this place. <BR /> <BR />It was important for the Committee to table the motion. It is important that all the scoping exercises have a start, a middle and an end and that they move quickly so that we know their conclusions very soon. I will not go through what Members said; we were all here, so we heard what everybody said. On a positive level, we all said that what happened over the summer cannot happen again and that we need to look at interventions. I will set that aside and talk about what happened during the summer and prior to it.”
“We have the T:BUC strategy, Communities in Transition, the ending violence against women and girls framework and the racial equality strategy. We are looking at where things stand for refugees. We are looking at equality and good relations. As part of a Committee inquiry, we are looking at equality gaps. <BR /> <BR />Given the size of the problem, we agree that it did not start in the summer. The summer was an expression of what has been going on for some time, but it was at that point that many of us just said, "Enough is enough". <BR /> <BR />We heard from people from Derry, or Foyle or the north-west — whatever you are comfortable calling it — who were referred to community leaders. That did happen. We heard that from individuals who came to us as part of these debates but did not go in front of the Committee.”
“Those people talked about their experience, and not one of us was unaffected by it. We obviously need to look at that. <BR /> <BR />Some Members made allegations or claims and other Members refuted them, but, at the end of the day, that is about experience. As with everything else in life, we will have to back up claims with evidence, but that is not the case when it comes to someone who feels that, in their experience, certain things have happened with some of the statutory bodies. When you hear how that has impacted on them and their families, you know that questions certainly need to be asked. <BR /> <BR />The Committee has been diligent in trying to get beneath the issue of what else can be done.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. First, I will make remarks on behalf of the Committee, given the change with Connie and Stewart, and I am pleased to do so. I will take some of my time to speak as a Committee member and then, separately, I will speak as one of the riff-raff, anti-fascist protesters who were out on the street. <BR /> <BR />The Committee motion has received cross-community support. Every Member mentioned concern about the issue. After the recall in August and what most of us have described as "the summer of hate", the Committee heard from a panel of people from different minority ethnic groups and others who spoke about the need for legislation. They are all aware that there is a strategy; they just do not feel that it works for them. We all need to look at that as part of the scoping exercise. We talk about lived experience.”
“I thank the Minister for his response. Prior to the latest announcement, I submitted a freedom of information request to ask what the cost of the delay was. I was told by the Belfast Trust that that was commercially sensitive information. Given the vast sums of public money involved, will the Minister commit to informing each MLA of the total cost of the delay to the build? The answer that I, as a democratically elected MLA, was given was completely unacceptable and lacked transparency.”
“While it is about gaps in social services in North Belfast and West Belfast, in the end, it is all about making sure that our residents, constituents and families and friends will have better outcomes than they currently have.”
“They need us to pay them; they need us to look after them; they need us to introduce the legislation, guidance and protection that will ensure that they will be looked after. I am really concerned and surprised that there have not been any serious adverse incidents (SAIs) up until now, not because of any mistakes that they have made but because of the pressure that they are under. The pressure is increasing, and the supply of workers is not there. We need that to be resolved. <BR /> <BR />I pay tribute not just to social workers but to people who, as we speak, will be out, going above and beyond to make sure that those who are the most vulnerable are safe and protected and get the support that they need.”
“I would like to know how the gaps — the 81 vacant social worker posts — have been filled. If they have not been filled, what is the plan? <BR /> <BR />I take the opportunity to commend our youth services in particular and our family support hubs. They go above and beyond in North Belfast, and I know that it is the same for West Belfast, because they all work across the community and help each other out. They are keeping kids safe but keeping them well. They are the agencies that have advocated, along with social services, to have better outcomes for the kids, because that is what it is all about. It is about having better outcomes. <BR /> <BR />I will finish by repeating that our social services and our social workers need our support. They do not need us to pay tribute to them.”
“The day-care places that were secured for social services went amiss, which has resulted in the day-care providers having to almost block-book because they cannot afford to lose those places. That was all because of staff sickness and people who were genuinely sick and perhaps even burnt out. It was not that there was no engagement: it was that that essential cog was missing. <BR /> <BR />There is another example of unintended consequences that have a direct impact on the vulnerable. When they are not there and there are concerns about children who are vulnerable or are at risk, what happens to that vulnerability and risk? Even working with the PSNI, the community and voluntary sector, youth services and social services, it is really hard to get people engaged, but, once they are engaged, there is normally a positive outcome.”
“<BR /> <BR />The issue for us is that children and families in North Belfast and West Belfast are living in persistently high levels of deprivation and inequality. The additional inequality is compounding the sense that there is a need for a whole-system approach and that, unless we get that fixed, there is just a constant cycle of misery. Nobody wants that at all. <BR /> <BR />There are unintended consequences. For example, providing sponsored day-care places is an initiative where social services, in partnership with day-care providers, try to help families to get children minded so that some of the parents or carers can get some support, counselling, parenting skills or whatever. There were not enough staff to make the referrals, so those children did not get the day-care places that they needed.”
“When children are brought together through that multi-agency approach, that is normally when those interventions work. Some of those families are also involved in kinship arrangements, or they care for family members or provide, as I mentioned, care and support for vulnerable people. That is critical. The social worker is the linchpin in all that success. <BR /> <BR />You have heard about the lack of respite and support generally for families with children with disabilities. We all know that that is unacceptable. There is a lack of support for them when they are getting the initial social services contact and support thereafter, and they feel unsupported and alone. We need to talk about that when we look at the issue, and I know that that has been at the centre of debates today.”
“<BR /> <BR />I know from my experience in North Belfast that the complexity of the issues that families are dealing with are deepening. You could have an elderly parent, alcohol and addiction issues or issues with waiting for children to be assessed. The list goes on. Therefore, the wrap-around support that is needed is more complex. Social workers, in my experience in North Belfast, have been integral in helping with that multi-agency approach, but I can see that they are exhausted. I see people who are already stretched trying to do their very best. Regrettably, throughout the summer in our constituency, as well as in West Belfast, we witnessed some very young children and young people getting involved in rioting and antisocial behaviour. It is regrettable that some of those children will go through the criminal justice system.”
“<BR /> <BR />I remind us all that the work that our community and voluntary sector undertakes to support some of the most vulnerable families is an integral part of the overall support. I would be shocked if you did not hear that during today's debates. As mentioned, since COVID and the return to school proper, there was an increase in support, which shows that safeguarding is working. Again, however, the system is trying to catch up. The community and voluntary sector worked in partnership with child and family teams to support families by providing fuel, food, counselling, emotional support and some short-term stopgaps. That was not always done through family support hubs, but they were critical. The issue needs to be sorted.”
“The delay in getting an allocated social worker causes an awful lot of stress. That is not down to the social workers: it is down to workforce planning. <BR /> <BR />The Minister will be aware that, in May and June, social workers were out on strike. Some were on strike because of the pressure, but some were on strike because of issues around safe staffing and safeguarding legislation, which we desperately need. For the most part, their main concern was that they felt vulnerable. A lot of the stuff, such as other issues around terms and conditions and workforce planning, was, largely, unresolved due to staff shortages, sickness and the lack of pace in recruitment and, even more so, with retention.”
“When kids went back to school following that, however, the number of children who were brought forward and deemed as being at risk had severely increased. For a lot of those children and families, cases had not been allocated simply because the staff were not there in sufficient numbers. <BR /> <BR />As the Minister and all Members will appreciate, when families are contacted by social services, it causes fear and panic. Some may expect it, but most do not. That is a fact. When that contact is made and the case has not proceeded, it places additional pressure on the people who made the referral in particular, but also on the social workers. For most cases, there is a resolution, which is worked out in conjunction with the families, social services and others who provide support.”
“If they have been filled, can you say in which field they have been filled? If you cannot, I am sure that you can provide any additional information in writing. I appreciate that you do not always have these things to hand. <BR /> <BR />The Minister has said that he wants to end inequalities in health and social care. The topic of the debate is an example of where some of the biggest inequalities have persisted. Some of our most vulnerable families face additional pressure due to not having access to much-needed expertise and support when they need it most. One example that is persistently raised with me is unallocated cases. That concern is constantly raised with me by my constituents. For example — I will touch on this further later — during COVID, people worked steadily and at pace.”
“The response from the Department was that there were 72 vacancies for child and family social workers; seven for disability social workers in children's services; two for disability social workers in adult services; and none for out-of-hours social workers. That was a total of 81 vacant posts. <BR /> <BR />In May, I asked a further question of the Minister, which was that he detail his Department's plans to recruit, given that there were 81 gaps in February. The Department responded by saying that health and social care trusts had undertaken a large recruitment exercise to recruit 200 newly qualified social workers and that the Belfast Trust intended to appoint approximately 60 newly qualified social workers throughout the summer. Minister, I ask that, in responding to the debate, you say whether those 60 posts have been filled.”
“At the outset, I acknowledge that the Minister has had a day of talking about social care, but he is up for it, so he will be grand. <BR /> <BR />This debate is not about criticising social services. If anything, I am trying to make a case for getting additional workers into both constituencies. It is also about trying to get answers to how the recruitment and retention of social workers to fill the gaps in North Belfast and West Belfast will be achieved. I am sure that, having prepared for the debate, Members may have some of the information that I will set out. <BR /> <BR />In February, I asked the Department how many vacant posts there were for child and family social workers, disability social workers and out-of-hours social workers in North Belfast and West Belfast.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.”
“— they await diagnosis. <BR /> <BR />Minister, this is not just your responsibility, but you have the privilege of bringing something forward to address it. We look forward to hearing what you have to say.”
“Accessing affordable housing is a massive challenge across all constituencies, but, in areas where there is big demand, landlords — I will not repeat what I think of most of them — use market forces to squeeze families out. That is horrendous, and it is greed. The impact of that on children's physical and mental health is huge. <BR /> <BR />Nuala mentioned speech and language. In our constituency, there are long waiting lists for children to access autism assessments, speech and language therapy and dentists. The oral and dental health is horrendous. There is also childhood obesity. In addition, a number of children are on individual education plans while —”
“<BR /> <BR />Brian will know that, although it is taking a bit of a hammering at the minute, good relations work in North Belfast will, as usual, bounce back. A lot of the youth good relations programmes have food built into them. It is not just about getting the kids in; health and safety and food are now built into those programmes as well, because children are coming to them hungry. <BR /> <BR />Housing and health are other aspects. There could be three or four generations under one roof, with teenagers and young children sharing one or two rooms. That is humiliating and horrendous. That has been the custom and practice, and I desperately ask that we change it.”
“I remember feeling embarrassed standing beside people who had a pink or green dinner ticket; the stigma of poverty was there. For me, like many of my friends and the people whom I grew up with, that became a way of life. <BR /> <BR />We are all passionate about different aspects of this. Nuala mentioned something that I have also seen, and it is horrendous. The education maintenance allowance (EMA) for teenage children was removed, but, when it comes to participation in sports, arts and other things, there are children who do not have access to the necessary equipment, even though there are clothes banks, sports banks, music banks and all sorts. That means that a lot of children will not even have aspirations in those areas. There is poverty of aspiration, which is debilitating and horrendous.”
“The cost of living has been discussed in the Chamber and others across the board. It has been incrementally increasing since 2018. Six years later, things are not getting any easier. Wages have not gone up. People are having to wait for five weeks to migrate from different benefits to universal credit (UC) and rely on food banks and, perhaps, loans. That is pushing people into poverty. <BR /> <BR />The humiliation of poverty is long-lasting. I remember growing up in a house in which most of the women worked because men could not get jobs. I am not being political as such, but there were few jobs for people like my father, who was a skilled engineer, because he was a Catholic. That was a fact when we were growing up. He had to go elsewhere to work. I remember getting what was then a blue dinner ticket for access to free school meals.”
“<BR /> <BR />Poverty levels in the constituencies of North Belfast, West Belfast, as Nuala pointed out, and Foyle — Sinéad is here from Derry — have remained persistently high and in the top 10% of the most deprived. It will take an all-Executive approach to eradicate poverty. In our constituency of North Belfast, New Lodge 1 is ranked fifth; seventh is Crumlin 2; ninth is Ardoyne 3; fourteenth is New Lodge 2; fifteenth is New Lodge 3; nineteenth is Duncairn 1, and twenty-first is Water Works 1. It is a depressing read. Hopefully, the Minister will bring the strategy forward under the social inclusion strategies soon. I look forward to hearing what he has to say today.”
“Thank you, Nuala, for securing an Adjournment debate on the issue. I am sure that Nuala and others would agree that providing an anti-poverty strategy and resolution is a cross-departmental issue: it absolutely is. Certainly, DFC is taking the lead on it, but this goes as far back as the Good Friday Agreement — half of those in the Chamber probably will not remember it — which included a section on bringing forward an anti-poverty strategy. It is another outstanding commitment that we have been waiting for. Certainly, the current British Government appear to be following in the footsteps of their Tory partners. Their announcements on the winter fuel payments, not scrapping the two-child benefit cap and all the rest just do not augur well for people who are living in already challenging circumstances.”
“I invited the British Cabinet Office to investigate those allegations, which were proven to be incorrect. I want that on the record. Like other Members, I am well attuned to the cut and thrust of politics, but I believe that that went well below what was acceptable, and I want that to be recorded in Hansard.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. At yesterday's sitting, during the Matter of the Day on Casement Park, Mr Phillip Brett said:”
“I thank the Minister for his response. It was a bit convoluted. Given the shortage of funding for housebuilding, can he ensure that he will stand over houses being built and delivered on objective need, rather than along sectarian or social engineering lines, and that houses will be allocated to those who are in housing stress on the housing waiting list?”
“is needed to end the daily violence against women and girls. Will the First Minister confirm that the voices of those with lived experience and expertise are and will be reflected in this vital strategy and delivery plan?”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Chead-Aire as a ráiteas.”
“It is a significant milestone for the four-party Executive, particularly as it sets out the priorities of the draft PFG for the rest of the mandate. How confident is the deputy First Minister that the draft PFG commitments will be delivered?”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an leas-Chéad Aire as ucht a ráitis.”
“We cannot cycle around Parliament Buildings. I did not ask about that. I asked, "What is happening in Parliament Buildings?" I appreciate what you said in your response about food. I know that this is a grade A listed building, but, for people who walk around here, as I do, could markers be put on the floors to let them know the distance that they have covered? That is the question that I wanted an answer to. I appreciate that that is the answer that you were given, but can you take my question back and get something more specific? Thank you.”
“I feel sorry for you having to read that out, to be totally honest.”
“I welcome the legislative programme. It is good progress, but there is still much work to be done. I look forward to seeing what private Members' Bills are brought forward. Tacaím leis an rún.”
“<BR /> <BR />When it comes to mother-and-baby institutions, Magdalene laundries and the need for a public inquiry and everything that we have heard, I want to see an acknowledgement that, while financial redress is important, it is about not only acknowledgement but inclusion. We have listened to the members of the consultative forum and learned that they are not happy with the officials' approach. I want to see a greater level of inclusion as part of that and, indeed, other legislation.”
“I do not agree with the format that you outlined, Paula, but it will be welcomed, particularly by the deaf and hearing-impaired community, because, effectively, without putting it on a statutory footing, unintended consequences and discrimination will continue. <BR /> <BR />I also welcome the adult protection Bill. It is very important, as the First Minister said, in the aftermath of the review of Dunmurry Manor care home. That all must be done using a human-rights approach. At the core of the legislation, every process must be implemented to uphold the dignity and rights of some of those who are the most vulnerable. I have looked at the legislation that the Health Minister will introduce, and I would like to see an individual duty of candour in Health and Social Care, particularly given the hyponatraemia and neurology scandals.”
“I am encouraged to hear that other legislation will perhaps be brought forward, followed by a statement by the First Minister and the deputy First Minister. <BR /> <BR />I welcome in particular, as I said, the introduction of legislation on the Fiscal Council, because it needs to be put on a statutory footing. Although I do not sit on the Finance Committee, in my opinion, that will ensure greater independent transparency and scrutiny. That is important work for our Finance Minister. <BR /> <BR />I am delighted to see the sign language Bill. I have been working on that matter for a long time. It should have been brought forward before.”
“Notwithstanding the challenges and the work that is ongoing to ensure that the British Government provide funding that meets our objective need, it is good that, at least, there is some funding to underwrite the legislative programme. I hope, as I am sure will others, that the Executive will progress the Programme for Government very soon. <BR /> <BR />It is clear from what the First Minister said that the Executive's legislative programme is the result of the advanced stages of work on policies from the Department. Paula, the Chair of TEO Committee, outlined some of the issues around scrutiny for TEO. I am sure that members of other Committees will do likewise. It is also important that the programme will not be just the final piece of the legislation.”
“You are going to vote against a public inquiry into mother-and-baby institutions and Magdalene laundries. You are also opposing fiscal transparency through putting the Fiscal Council on a statutory footing. It is important to make that clear. As we would say in the New Lodge rather than Texas, that is all fluff and no stuff. We will move on. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the Executive's programme of legislation for this year. It will probably be a minimum. It is an ambitious programme of legislative work, given that many of the issues have been around for some time. It is a demonstration of the Executive moving forward, and that is to be welcomed.”
“OK, you will not force a Division — thanks for that clarity — but you are going to vote against the motion”
“No, I will not, Matthew. Thank you. <BR /> <BR />It means opposing sign language and opposing protections for some of the most vulnerable adults through the regulation and protection of safeguarding.”
“I want to be clear: the leader of the Opposition will force a Division, which means opposing sign language.”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Chéad-Aire as ucht an rúin ar maidin.”
“In addition to the key changes that she has outlined, what aspects would the Minister like to see in the policy in order to ensure more inclusivity around social value?”