Carál Ní Chuilín
North Belfast · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“To continue the theme of undermining public confidence and public effectiveness, I ask you this, Minister: why do you and your DUP colleagues continue to block the 'good jobs' Bill, particularly the measures for parents whose babies require neonatal care and, indeed, other measures that will support workers who are struggling with the cos…”
“At the end of the day, guns were used to kill Catholics — Davy Payne; surface-to-air missiles in South Africa and Paris and then some. I will give the deputy First Minister another opportunity not to deflect but to condemn her party's involvement in Ulster Resistance and with the red berets that they wore.”
“I thank the Minister for that response. I have a close family relative who is in need of a SPiMS unit in an Irish-medium school but cannot access one in North Belfast at all. Apart from access in P4 and P5, they will have to go to an English-speaking school, even though Irish is their first language.”
“You mentioned some of the issues that are important: trade union representation, the banning of zero-hours contracts and employees being able to have their tips and service charges. Anyone who cannot get behind these proposals needs to be clear — concerns for some, and hiding behind the industry for others.”
“First Minister, I know that, recently, you were in Ardoyne for the sod cutting of the new £3·4 million purpose-built youth facility for Ardoyne Youth Enterprise. Further to your response to Brian Kingston, can you give us an update on that project and, indeed, any others?”
“I agree 100%, Linda. That is something that we all agree on. We met many people. The Bill was published and was based on the report of the truth recovery process.”
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“<BR /> <BR />Mark Durkan raised concerns about accelerated passage, but, in fairness to him, I do not think that he voted against it. However, it is his prerogative, as it is with every one of us, to bring forward amendments if we so wish. <BR /> <BR />I completely accept the points that the Member is making in his amendment that there needs to be a read-across in going through to the Housing Executive because you do not want to cause a gap or inequality. However, that amendment does not meet the criteria for this to go through. That is where we part company. That is basically it. <BR /> <BR />I want to say on the record that I, too, got the report on Friday. On first look, I thought that it was part of the Assembly materials in preparation for this debate. I then discovered that it was something completely different.”
“I join others in wishing Deirdre Hargey all the best. I do not know what the craic is with Christopher, but I wish him the best as well and I thank people for their generous comments about me stepping in, hopefully, for a very short time. <BR /> <BR />I will start with the points that Gerry has just made. I want to make it clear that there is absolutely no issue with anybody bringing forward any amendment on any bit of legislation. That is what this place is for. You may agree or disagree with it. People may be hot and heavy in their agreement or disagreement, but that is fundamentally their right. This is a legislative Assembly to bring forward legislation either amended or not amended. So, to that end, I do not recognise what he is saying, and it will not be the case here.”
“The Minister has already said that there are plans to go out to further consultation on the subregional stadia. In her discussions with the IFA, the Minister needs to raise the primacy rule and designated grounds, because, otherwise, other soccer clubs will be hampered. <BR /> <BR />Will she provide details about any future subregional stadia to the three big sporting bodies? Are there any plans to introduce funding measures for them?”
“This is a good move, and it provides much more clarity. It does not discriminate between families with married parents and those with unmarried parents. The process ensures that everybody has clarity, particularly children and families, on the bereavement payment. It goes without saying that bereavement is hard enough. Families have to deal with their emotional loss and all that comes with that, and, on top of all that, there is the financial burden. The new rule makes things easier, and the Committee looks forward to the introduction of statutory rules that provide greater clarity and certainty for everybody concerned.”
“I thank the Minister for bringing the statutory rule forward. Our Committee Chair, Paula Bradley, has outlined the discussions that we had in relation to ensuring that couples who are not married but cohabiting and their families are not discriminated against. <BR /> <BR />The move to change the statutory rule was already in progress when the McLaughlin case took place. We need to get it cleared so that we can go forward with more definition and detail. As the Committee Chair, Paula, mentioned, the case in England, last month, has ramifications for the statutory rule here.”
“It was agreed that we would do that, but Paula Bradley, the Committee Chair, said that any future legislation that comes in front of our Committee will certainly be scrutinised, and I welcome that. I also welcome the raft of statutory rules that will come forward. We will be able to scrutinise those and, potentially, private Member’s Bills that may amend current legislation. It is a good start, but I think the sentiments are that we are looking forward to seeing more.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am not on the Justice Committee, but I am really interested in and quite supportive of the domestic abuse Bill. I agree with the Chair of the Justice Committee, Paul Givan, when he said that he would to see other legislation coming forward, and I would particularly like to see legislation on upskirting and other offences, which we do not yet have in full. There are a lot of pieces of legislation that I do not foresee taking a lot of time. Kellie Armstrong mentioned the two bits of legislation that we will be dealing with on the Communities Committee that are going forward through accelerated passage. That is not anybody's first option; I think it is a last resort.”
“The repeal of the 1737 legislation will be very welcome, particularly for children or anybody who has to go through court, including families dealing with wills and things. I do not think that people fully understood the iniquitous impact that that legislation had, particularly to people's identity and their ability to express themselves in their first language. <BR /> <BR />Legislation on liquor licensing will be greatly welcomed, particularly by the hospitality industry. With potentially more hours, I would like to see better protections for workers, particularly those who are on zero-hours contracts. I know that this will not cover all workers, but it would certainly cover those who are involved in the hospitality industry.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am concerned about an element of the proposed pensions Bill, so I would like to see more information about the automatic enrolment of employees. Maybe that will happen in the legislation that comes forward. In particular, I am worried about those who are on zero-hours contracts, and that has not been mentioned in any great detail. With a lot of these entitlements, people on zero-hours contracts do not enjoy the same benefits as the rest of the employees. That will certainly have an impact on them once they reach pension age. <BR /> <BR />I think that it is particularly good that we are looking at a suite of legislation on language and culture. Like many Members, I listened to Christopher — he is not in the Chamber at the minute — talk about his background.”
“<BR /> <BR />The legislation that is coming forward on the reclassification of housing associations is really important because it means that the money from financial transactions capital, particularly for co-ownership, which we talked about during last week's Budget Bill debate, will be spent. It will be spent delivering much-needed homes, and it also means that housing associations will remain private so will be able to build with half their own money and half from the Department rather than all the money coming from the block grant. I, too, would like to see the Housing Executive building again in conjunction with housing associations because I do not think that there is enough housing to meet needs, irrespective of any bedroom tax. I think that it is a horrible piece of legislation to hurt those who are most vulnerable.”
“No, I have heard enough. <BR /> <BR />So, I am glad that they are now on board. One thing I do agree with the Member on is that I do not like the term "welfare reform"; it is very American and masks the impact of Tory austerity on people's lives. <BR /> <BR />This morning, I noted Michelle O'Neill, joint First Minister, saying that the small window is what it is but that she was hopeful that other legislation would come forward. I was delighted to see the Minister for Communities come straight out and along with the support of her Executive colleagues, and that is the entire Executive, look at protecting those most vulnerable on the mitigations on what has been known as the bedroom tax.”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a ráiteas agus as an rún seo. I thank the Ministers for tabling the motion on forthcoming legislation to the House. <BR /> <BR />I have to say — Mark will not be surprised at this — that the SDLP also voted against protecting the most vulnerable. The party claim to be the champions of the most vulnerable. SDLP Members also voted against cancer drugs, special educational needs and so on and so forth.”
“In terms of the Barnett consequentials that came forward, and we hear that there was a reduction in some this week, we are not getting some of the consequentials invested in England, and we need to look at that. The issue for us is deciding what to do with the money that we have in a period of Tory austerity, which looks like it will last for a long time. We have a particularly emboldened British Prime Minister who has a vote on the back of an increasing sense of British nationalism. Those who have less are going to get less, and those who have more are going to get more, and none of us in this House want that. I appreciate the Minister bringing the Bill forward, and I look forward to the Budget debate.”
“I am not the Minister for sport now, but does sport need more money? Yes it does. Do grassroots sports, which keep people healthy and, at times, keep people alive — literally at times — need more money? Yes, they do. Do we need to reduce obesity, heart problems and circulation problems? Do we need to increase participation, inclusion and all those things that sport brings? Yes, absolutely. I am not going to say any more than that, because I am conscious that Conor and Deirdre are responsible, along with Executive colleagues, for bringing that forward. I appreciate the Member's intervention. <BR /> <BR />I will finish on this. The next serious conversation needs to be about raising our own money and what we can do across the island.”
“However, if you were to lift the conclusions from RHI whenever they come, the different audit reports that have come through Kieran Donnelly's office and some of the lessons that we have learned from our own Departments, we could save hundreds of millions of pounds. If we make a commitment to do that, that is fine. I will finish on this —.”
“It needs to be delivered, because it was part of a stadia development programme at a cost of £110 million which the previous Executive signed up to and which we have all carried forward since. The subregional programme needs to be consulted on, as does the next one and the one after that. The point is this: are there lessons to be learned? There absolutely are. That is the point that I made earlier about budgeting. <BR /> <BR />We were talking about the Estimates yesterday and the Supply resolution, we are going through this debate today and we will probably have the same, if not similar, debates when the Budget comes forward.”
“Let me say for the record that there absolutely are not. I am looking at him because I actually listened to him yesterday and today, but I am going to look at you now, a Cheann Comhairle, and I am going to talk about the Budget. <BR /> <BR />The Member has given me an opportunity to talk about Casement Park, and he is probably going to kick himself for doing so. Nelson McCausland approved the original business case, and I lifted it and took it. I brought Casement Park to planning, but it failed planning on traffic management. Since then, like the A5 and other big projects, lots of zeros are ticking up, but not a sod has been cut. That is not good enough on my watch or anybody else's watch.”
“I assure you, a Cheann Comhairle, that I will stick to the Budget. I am afraid to look at Mervyn in case he thinks that there are any notions.”
“It was certainly in the middle of a crisis that caused us all sorts of problems.”
“The RHI report will come out, and lessons will be learned. I hope that you are wrong, Mervyn, that some of the officials who may be implicated in that are obviously going to work elsewhere, but I do not want to make any comment on any of that stuff. I will respect the decision. What we all know is that substantial sums of public money, going from millions to tens of millions to hundreds of millions, have potentially literally gone up the chimney. Who wants that? No one does. <BR /> <BR />We want to make sure that, whatever Budget process comes forward, as you did when you were the Minister, and as we will do in our Committees, we will be reading. If there is anything that we have learned from RHI, it is that everybody will read their papers and then some, and reading them again and then some. That affects us all.”
“<BR /> <BR />We need to have fiscal powers and the ability to raise our own funds for planning. Matthew spoke about the Scottish model and commissioning. There is good practice on this island and across these islands, and we need to gather all those up. It will not be for the next Budget process and it might not be for the one after that, but it will certainly be for the next mandate. I would like us, collectively, to — it was mentioned yesterday, and it has certainly been mentioned today — look at the processes and try to bed down roots for those coming behind us, irrespective of who takes the Departments, to make sure that we do not have another report from Kieran Donnelly, as nice a man as he is, that talks about, as you referred to earlier, the eye-watering sum of £700 million.”
“The way in which New Decade, New Approach laid out co-design and participation will be pivotal, particularly in the next Budget process, for not just us as elected representatives, but for people involved in the community and voluntary sector. No disrespect to any of the big community and voluntary sector groups, but I would like to see the smaller groups having the ability to get involved in the process as well. Often enough, the big community and voluntary sector groups do a great job, but they do not always speak on behalf of the smaller groups that we all know. To be quite honest, there is nothing empowering about somebody sending you a message on WhatsApp about a meeting that you were not at or, worse still, that you did not even know about.”
“They need to have the apprenticeships in order to get the social clauses, in order to build houses, and so on and so forth. Can it be fixed? It absolutely can.”
“Of the 16 categories, five belong to DFC, covering housing for people with disabilities, empty homes and other things that we have all called for in previous debates in this mandate, the previous mandate and the one before that. Other things will take not a pile of money, just the political will. We need those responsible to get cracking, and that is one of the things that we need to look at. <BR /> <BR />We also need to look at procurement, particularly if we are buying in. For example, we have all spoken to different sectors, particularly in the past couple of years. The construction sector will tell us that it is good to go and just needs the projects, but the projects in the construction sector do not have apprenticeships.”
“I see it in my constituency — I see it in my family — so this is not just politic rhetoric. Who would want that? No one wants it, but we need to look at ways in which we can raise money to add to the block grant to try to begin to deliver to meet the need. <BR /> <BR />At the minute, there are 36,000 people on the housing waiting list, 26,500 of whom are in housing stress. Who wants that on their watch? None of us does. It is a five-party Executive, and we do not want that, but we also need to look at other ways of dealing with it. For example, yesterday, you or someone else described the sums of financial transactions capital that were sent back as "eye-watering". I have complete confidence that that will not happen again.”
“<BR /> <BR />I doubt that your constituency needs more houses than mine does, but, if it did, I would support them being built, and that is the way in which we need to continue. Your constituency has needs, but there are needs in all our constituencies. For example, there may be a need for more family homes in my constituency and for more homes for older people and those with disabilities elsewhere. We need to scope out what the need is and try to deliver on it. There are those who do not have a roof over their head or an address of their own, and there are homes in which three or four generations live under one roof. That is humiliating. Kids grow up with mental health problems that they never had before. There is no privacy. There is no space to grow, to make mistakes, to listen to music or to have a shower: all that stuff.”
“The reason that it is not is that it is only in 'New Decade, New Approach' that there has been an agreement to exclude it from paying corporation tax and to get rid of the historical debt that came to the Housing Executive from local government. We need to look at its vires to build houses and do better, but we also need to look at other systems and structures that are fit for purpose in the 21st century. I imagine that we will have the same conversation with Deirdre Hargey and officials from DFC. I am not neuralgic about that; what I am passionate about is that, regardless of who people are, it is about need not creed, and it should never have been that way. It was what it was, but we are now moving forward.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. He is right: we have had the discussion before. We have had some rows as well, but the good thing is that we were still talking afterwards. That is politics. It is good politics. <BR /> <BR />We will not agree on a lot of things, but one thing that I agree with you on is that all citizens need good services, and housing is one such service. The Housing Executive emerged from the fact that there was discrimination in councils, and the model has been there for a long time. Is the Housing Executive delivering housing in the way in which it was intended to? No, it is not.”
“She has also talked about protecting people who are very vulnerable and about the need to consider how we look at housing. Yes, it will take loads of money and new ways —.”
“If we have made commitments, which we have, to take the big issues on, we also need to work out at what stage we take them on. That is part of political discourse. There will be some legislation — the Budget Bill is no exception — that will be done through the accelerated passage process. That is the last option for anyone. It is the last resort rather than the first option. We all got to read the Budget in our Committees, and, if you had more time, you could say more things, but, essentially, we were all given the opportunity to raise our concerns. I am not saying this just because she is my colleague, but, even in the short time that we have been here and with the small bits of money that we have — more is needed — Deirdre Hargey has been able to make decisions on bedroom tax and her intention to set that pathway out.”
“I am one of the people who stood on interfaces to make sure that kids did not go in jail and ended up in the Mater A&E. I want them gone, but I also want consultation with the residents first rather than some grandiose statements, because they are the people and the community and they need to be consulted. Do I want to see them gone? Absolutely. I am with you on that. I am also with you on sharing services in education as long as parents are consulted. We go through primary education and maybe go to a post-primary school and even to third-level education. The first time I met somebody from the opposite side of Belfast, never mind somebody of another religion, was the first time I put my foot in university. That is the experience for a lot of people of my age. <BR /> <BR />We need to take all this in the round.”
“A lot of us, regardless of what priority we give to them, will certainly be able to see something that, we all felt, citizens and constituents needed to see a difference in. More importantly, the British Government need to invest — along with the Irish Government but more so the British Government — due to the consequences of the legacy of the past and all that that brings. We will all come at these debates on money and budgets from a different position, and we all may have different ideas about what needs to be priority one, two, three or four. <BR /> <BR />I listened to Andrew blame us all for the cost of division. There was no mention of the British Government or anybody else's role, for that matter, but I accept his point. I live in north Belfast. I do not want to see interfaces there for evermore.”
“I cut my budget to do that because it was the right thing to do. When you ask the Finance Minister to be brave, those are the sorts of things that we need to look at, regardless of who is in the Department. We need to prioritise the services that all our citizens rely on, and the money that we need to supply those services is very important. <BR /> <BR />I also want to make the point that it is worrying that, when you look at the whole budgeting process or even the lack of it — that is what we meant when we talked about the lack of transparency — you see that, while the British Government have made commitments in 'New Decade, New Approach', they certainly have not been as forthcoming about who will pay for them. Those are commitments that all the parties who were involved in the discussions and negotiations raised as very important.”
“We will have the Budget Bill in the future, and we will probably have the same debate again, if we are honest, maybe with some tweaks. <BR /> <BR />I want to make the point that we are not just saying that we need to look at fiscal flexibilities or even fiscal autonomy in raising our moneys. We are not just saying it from an ideological point of view; we are saying it because we do not have enough money in the grant. We are at the mercy of a Tory Budget and Tory austerity, whether you call it "Conservatism", "Tories" or whatever or maybe something else that would not be recorded in Hansard. Either way, we all have problems with the way money needs to be spent and targeted towards those who need it most, and that is sometimes where the twain do not meet. I remember, when I was in DCAL, giving money to Health and Education.”
“Fáiltím roimh an Bhille ón Aire, agus ba mhaith liom ráiteas gairid a dhéanamh ar an Bhille. I thank the Minister for bringing forward the Bill. I want to say a few words, like everyone else. <BR /> <BR />Yesterday's debate was interesting, and, actually, today's debate has been interesting. It might not be as interesting for the Minister because he has had to endure this and a Question Time. Even though there have been disagreements in the Chamber about the way certain things have happened, everybody has taken into consideration not being here for three years and the way in which money was spent or even not spent during that period. We all know that the process is about gathering up the Supplementary Estimates and Supply resolution.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I listened to him yesterday, and I hear him saying the same thing today, which will probably be the case with a lot of Members. The Member referred to the fact that no Budget Bill was brought forward, but he failed to explain why. I heard him and his colleague yesterday refer to RHI as a "botched boiler scheme". Given the fact that there were allegations leading to corruption at the heart of government and the fact that public money was under such scrutiny by the public and other Committee members, will the Member perhaps elaborate on why the Budget Bill could not be brought forward, please?”
“I thank the Minister for her response. Central to all that will be closing the gender pay gap, particularly in relation to section 19 of the Employment Act 2016. I assume that that will be an integral part of the work that needs to be brought forward on this issue.”
“I thank the Minister for her response, particularly to Kellie Armstrong's question. My question is similar. The 'New Decade, New Approach' document has within it the potential for removing historical debt from the Housing Executive. Will the Minister ensure that any proposals to increase rents are matched against affordability? How will the commitments around the revitalisation and the removal of historical debt be delivered within this Assembly?”
“I, too, welcome the Minister to her first Question Time and wish her well. The Department has been working on revised guidance to staff around this issue for some time. Will she ensure that robust measures are taken through legislation to deal with illegally erected flags? I am sure that she will agree that everyone, regardless of who they are or where they live, has to live free from sectarian harassment.”
“It is Ní Chuilín. OK? Go raibh maith agat. <BR /> <BR />If the Minister does not mind, will he do that? I appreciate that that is a lot of information to be bounced with in topical questions. <BR /> <BR />Will the Minister take the opportunity to scotch any rumours by confirming that, once a medical practitioner, a doctor or a consultant recommends a drug for a patient, they are recommending that treatment for them on the Health and Social Care budget and that families will not be left to foot the bill, even if some of the drugs companies have given the licence to us on compassionate grounds, awaiting NICE approval? It is just that there is a lot of speculation out there, and we need to clear that up, particularly through the Cystic Fibrosis Trust and the Patient and Client Council.”
“I would be quite shocked if, at the meeting with TransgenderNI and others, the issue of conversion therapy, and the need to bring legislation forward to ban it, was not raised. Does the Minister have any plans to bring forward legislation to ban the inhumane practice of conversion therapy?”
“I appreciate the Minister's response. For the purposes of clarity, perhaps she could also try to get some figures on error. We often hear about fraud; we rarely hear about the errors in the system. In a previous question — I think Joanne Bunting asked it — we heard about errors in relation to universal credit and the impact that that has on people. It would be good to have those figures also.”
“If the Minister wants to know about NIFAIS, I can meet him after topical questions to give him an update”
“The Minister should know that I have been following the issue of single farm payments in North Belfast eagerly, given the announcement that he made last week, so it should come as no surprise to him. <BR /> <BR />On the matter of ensuring that the basic payments are maintained, will the Minister make arrangements to meet the British Treasury, particularly in the light of Brexit, to ensure that the payments are not detrimentally impacted?”
“Our concern is that we are putting public money into private healthcare to the detriment of Health and Social Care workers, effectively privatising a service that needs to be free at the point of delivery. <BR /> <BR />I wish the Minister well, but, in the coming months and, indeed, the time ahead, I look forward to more substantial plans — if we get this resolved this year — to tackle the big, big issues around workforce planning.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire. Thank you very much. Congratulations to yourself. I appreciate the statement that you have brought forward in such a timely fashion. You may have correspondence from me on your desk regarding drugs for cystic fibrosis sufferers and suicide prevention initiatives in North Belfast. I look forward to your response and even meeting you about those. <BR /> <BR />The Minister and other Members have mentioned the issues with recruitment and retention and workforce planning, particularly around safe staffing. Can the Minister, to the best of his ability today, even through this renewed strategic health partnership forum, try to look seriously at workforce planning, because I, too, remember Agenda for Change in 2004.”
“I, too, congratulate the Minister of Education. I congratulate him on the investment in Cliftonville Integrated Primary School in North Belfast. It is very much welcomed. <BR /> <BR />The Minister mentioned procurement earlier in his answer to, I think, Dolores Kelly. I would like procurement procedures to be strengthened so that it is not the case that, if schools go down the CPD route, more money is spent doing minor works and replacing fixtures than would be if that work had been done independently. Significant money is being invested, so I ask the Minister, along with CPD, SIB and others, to bring forward enhanced procedures. That money is welcome. However, procurement certainly needs to be tightened up and to be more cost-effective and inclusive of social clauses and social benefits.”
“The Minister mentioned the Public Accounts Committee's highly critical view of Ofgem's administration of the RHI scheme. Will the inquiry, in all the details and everything else, examine Ofgem's role in this and the administration of Ofgem vis-à-vis the former Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment, now the Department for the Economy? Will the inquiry investigate and examine its role in managing Ofgem's management of the RHI scheme?”
“Will the Member give way? I just want to clarify the situation. We have been very consistent on accountability and transparency and on stopping the flow of public money into this scheme. People have been very patient. You have asked for a tactic in order to look at further scrutiny. That is our position. I thought, even going by some of your own comments earlier, that we were speaking ad nauseam so, hopefully, that has clarified it again.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am glad to see the regulations, however, because if they help make it clearer for people how to get access to benefits, all the better. However, I urge the Minister to give additional support, particularly to the advice sector.”