Carál Ní Chuilín
North Belfast · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“To continue the theme of undermining public confidence and public effectiveness, I ask you this, Minister: why do you and your DUP colleagues continue to block the 'good jobs' Bill, particularly the measures for parents whose babies require neonatal care and, indeed, other measures that will support workers who are struggling with the cos…”
“At the end of the day, guns were used to kill Catholics — Davy Payne; surface-to-air missiles in South Africa and Paris and then some. I will give the deputy First Minister another opportunity not to deflect but to condemn her party's involvement in Ulster Resistance and with the red berets that they wore.”
“I thank the Minister for that response. I have a close family relative who is in need of a SPiMS unit in an Irish-medium school but cannot access one in North Belfast at all. Apart from access in P4 and P5, they will have to go to an English-speaking school, even though Irish is their first language.”
“You mentioned some of the issues that are important: trade union representation, the banning of zero-hours contracts and employees being able to have their tips and service charges. Anyone who cannot get behind these proposals needs to be clear — concerns for some, and hiding behind the industry for others.”
“First Minister, I know that, recently, you were in Ardoyne for the sod cutting of the new £3·4 million purpose-built youth facility for Ardoyne Youth Enterprise. Further to your response to Brian Kingston, can you give us an update on that project and, indeed, any others?”
“I agree 100%, Linda. That is something that we all agree on. We met many people. The Bill was published and was based on the report of the truth recovery process.”
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“That is actually illegal, but I hear what the Member says. If I understand the Member right — I do not want to put words in his mouth — local people languishing on a housing waiting list should have the aspiration, hope and, indeed, expectation to live locally. What happens is that people from other areas who claim to be intimidated come into an estate, get brand new houses and then move from one estate to another. I sympathise completely with the Member on that, and we need to ensure that that does not happen. <BR /> <BR />If local people have that area as their choice and they have the points that they need — it goes back to your first question — when will we look at the points to ensure that those people will get houses? Even a new system will not ensure that that happens.”
“I mentioned, I think, in response to Steve Aiken's question on domestic violence that intimidation points for people suffering from domestic violence was included in a lot of the responses that parties made. I am looking at those, and I will go to the Committee, because we need to change the way that allocations are made. We need to ensure that there is a fairer system. <BR /> <BR />I remember the debate in the House. We looked at intimidation points, and, as sure as whatever, as soon as the new scheme came, the levels of people claiming to be intimidated went through the roof. We need better and stronger verification of intimidation. The allocation process looks at many areas, and I give you and other Members a commitment that we are actively looking at that as we speak.”
“I am happy to write to the Minister of Education to see if we can take that forward. I have met no resistance whatever from the Department of Education or the Education Authority to using facilities and schools infrastructure such as buses to help communities. I am not saying that the Member is suggesting that, but I would be shocked. All the usual risk assessments and all the reasons why you cannot do something were overcome. People saw that the sky did not fall in when those partnerships happened, and they need to be supported for the future — hopefully, without a second spike.”
“I certainly will. The Member was here throughout questions for oral answer, so he will know that I am genuinely delighted by the partnership that has developed across the community and voluntary sector, sporting groups and faith-based groups during COVID. I want that relationship to endure beyond COVID, and that needs to be recognised through investment from the Executive.”
“I will add that to the written response that I will give the Member, including, if possible, any resolution.”
“I will provide the Member with a written response, because it is very technical. When the legislation is devolved back to the Assembly, we will have the ability to ensure that, unlike in England, there are continuing mitigations. Therefore, unlike England, we will have mitigations on top, and we want to ensure that that happens. I will get the Member a fuller response on Danielle's case.”
“At the outset of the emergency, Minister Hargey announced a £1·5 million creative support fund, recognising that further support would be required. I secured an additional £4 million in June monitoring to reopen the fund, first for individuals, including freelances and self-employed in the sector, and then for organisations. The funding is in recognition of the importance of a vibrant arts sector for wider social and economic recovery.”
“I am not aware of the volume of it; I am aware that people have been offered a paper-based appeal as an option. I do not want to misquote or misrepresent what you have said, but it sounds like a paper-based appeal is of such a nature that it puts people off going for face-to-face. I do not know. I am happy to talk to the Member to find out exactly what is going on. I know that paper-based appeals have been used in my constituency and have suited the clients, but that will not suit everybody.”
“That is what we have tried to do in the Department for Communities to support people who may be entitled to a lot more money than they are receiving. I will look at anything that I can do to reduce the stress that people go through as they wait for an appeal.”
“As I am sure that the Member will appreciate, getting the system to go out to towns and villages has been a positive step. It is better. If you are not from Belfast and have to travel to Belfast for a hearing in a court setting, it is daunting. I would feel a bit daunted. Our trying to get the hearings brought out to people is, hopefully, one way of reducing stress — but it is only a bit of stress — and ensuring that whatever option they take is one that they are most comfortable with.”
“Let me give the Member as much reassurance as possible. I have tried to be as flexible as possible in ensuring that people who are most vulnerable are not subjected to any further trauma or stress. That is what we are trying to do. If face to face suits people, that may be the process. If videoconferencing or teleconferencing does not suit and they feel that they are at a disadvantage, we need to work to address that. If that means an extension, I will certainly look at that. From the evidence that I have had up to now, and I have asked about it regularly, that does not seem to be the case. That comes from people working in the areas that suffer the highest deprivation with those who receive the highest levels of the benefits. If it turns out to be something else, I will look at it.”
“I have given the Member dates for when the hearings will commence, so the risk assessments are being done. I do not want a long process or for people who are waiting and may be due substantial amounts of money if decisions are overturned to be waiting any further. I have also asked them to go out to where people are. Anybody in receipt of the payments is suffering with a substantial level of disability. It is one of the most difficult benefits to get. I want to make it as easy as possible. I am not slowing anything down. I want to give the Member that assurance. If he has evidence that I am, he needs to come to the Department.”
“Sorry, Paul, that was not at you; it was at the other Paul. <BR /> <BR />Oral hearings using technology options will commence with effect from 28 September this year. Face-to-face oral hearings are set to recommence from 28 September in the main hearing centre, subject to the favourable outcome of a risk assessment — that is always in brackets. Face-to-face oral hearings at venues are set to recommence from mid-October, again subject to the completion of risk assessments. I have asked that alternative accommodation options be sought to facilitate hearings in local towns and villages.”
“I have asked for those figures because the guesstimates are wild, to be frank, Kellie. Like me, you probably have a couple of different sets of figures, even from the Housing Executive on what it needs. Frankly, I hope that the debt is removed, for example, and that the corporation tax of over £13 million a year does not have to be paid. That in itself will ensure that Housing Executive reserves can be built up and used in a way that allows more houses to be built and more construction methods to be used — in answer to Philip's question — to make sure that those homes are energy efficient and are of the best possible standard.”
“That needs to be knocked on the head. <BR /> <BR />We also need to ensure that the investment is there for a longer-term programme because, unless we seriously look at this and tackle this crisis in homelessness and housing, we will ensure that three generations will be reared under one roof. I do not think that any of us wants that on our watch. You are right that we need those proposals. As soon as those are advanced through the NDNA piece, my Department will be working with other colleagues in local government and right across the Executive to try and get that restored.”
“It is £3 billion over the next 11 years. Even with our 2018 figures, it is probably reduced. The Member is right to ask: where are the proposals? The main proposals were in New Decade, New Approach, looking at the ability to remove corporation tax that the Housing Executive has to pay — the only social landlord that has to pay corporation tax — and also looking at getting rid of historical debt. I have already met my colleague Conor Murphy to expedite that. That, in itself, will mean that the Housing Executive can borrow money and build. That is really needed. <BR /> <BR />To be frank, we also need to stop blocking houses in each of our constituencies. There is some NIMBYism out there against people who have disabilities, Travellers and people who are one religion or another. That has held up the potential to develop sites.”
“<BR /> <BR />The challenge of increasing the supply of social housing and, indeed, affordable housing is one that we need to take for at least 10 years rights across this Executive to get met.”
“Meeting social housing needs is a mammoth task. To be honest, I am looking at exercises that were undertaken, such as looking at the availability of land. I am meeting the newly formed partnership panel with local government to look at the whole local development plan process. I am asking officials to talk to officials from other Departments to see what land has been banked and what land is derelict because it is essential that we increase supply to reduce demand. <BR /> <BR />In relation to the environment, we have not been successful in getting the green homes grant scheme just yet, but I anticipate that we will get a Barnett consequential. That is looking at things like ensuring that we reduce fuel poverty, use new construction methods and so on, but we are committed to doing that anyway through what the housing associations do.”
“Part of the solution will ensure that rents remain affordable and sustainable to Housing Executive tenants, and we are looking through the NDNA process at other ways to try and meet that requirement.”
“I thank the Member for his question. The commitment in New Decade, New Approach (NDNA) to tackle the maintenance backlog for the Housing Executive’s properties reflects a much wider revitalisation programme aimed at securing the long-term future of social housing stock. <BR /> <BR />The Member will be aware that the backlog of maintenance referenced in New Decade, New Approach is really significant. Estimates in 2018 showed that £7·1 billion of investment is required over the next 30 years, with £3 billion required in the next 11 years to deal with the urgent backlog. I appreciate that those are March 2018 figures, but they are still stark. The Housing Executive simply cannot afford that level of investment on its own. This is a strategic issue of long-term significance, and it will require broad political and social consensus.”
“From the two questions that have come up, I will certainly take it on board to find out what groups have lost out. The charities fund was exactly for that. It was for groups that did not have access to public funds, such as the group in Eglinton, that are doing a good job, and many others across the board. Will they need funding in the future? Absolutely. There are many others out there. From COVID-19, we have learnt what people have done with a small amount of money. Certainly, if the Member wants to write to me about anything specific, I am happy to receive that and, hopefully, reply to it. I will also undertake to try and find out whether any group lost out on any funds.”
“I am unaware of any group that has lost its funding, which is good news. If there are groups in the Member's constituency, he can come to me about them. If anything, most groups received additional funding because of the work that they are doing. I visited Via Wings in Dromore and it was an absolute pleasure. Via Wings, like many other groups from a community and voluntary background are involved in faith-based work. They took the food box and showed me how to make it stretch and do more with it. I do not know whether that is an urban/rural thing, but Departments certainly have a lot to learn from those groups. I commend the work that Via Wings and loads of other groups have done, and are continuing to do, to help people who are vulnerable.”
“Yes, I do recognise the role that sporting organisations have and, indeed, will continue to have. Jonathan will remember that, when we were on the Committee, a lot of the sporting organisations were responsible for delivering food and shelter and standing at people's garden gates and talking to them, particularly people in rural communities who were isolated, and that needs to be factored in. Even the presentation that we received from Sport NI showed that a lot of people were doing their best in a very difficult situation and that they made the best use of the small bit of money that they received. <BR /> <BR />We certainly need to ensure that, as part of community development, working in partnership, co-design and co-production, sporting bodies and small sporting groups are involved.”
“The Member and, indeed, other Members in the House will agree that the work initiated by Deirdre Hargey, on behalf of the Executive, to support community and voluntary groups has been exemplary. As we move with easements, hopefully out of COVID, that money and investment needs to continue, albeit in a different way. The Member will be aware, from her constituency, of the work of some of the neighbourhood renewal groups. They are already working along the lines of what they can do with regard to anti-poverty. One thing that government, right across the piece, cannot ignore is the way that the community responded to help their friends, families, neighbours and, indeed, communities that they would not normally work with throughout the pandemic. We need to protect that investment.”
“My Department is also providing a safe reopening fund of £2·5 million to support safe return of provision of face-to-face community services to all of our people.”
“The voluntary and community sector has continued to play a front-line role over the past six months, particularly in response to the global pandemic. Very often, as has been acknowledged in the Chamber, they were seen as the first responders. <BR /> <BR />In terms of financial support, £1·5 million was directed through councils at the outset of the emergency to support community-led programmes for people in financial stress, in need of food or experiencing isolation. A further £3·2 million was allocated to support that work: £1·7 million for the COVID community support fund; £750,000 for an access-to-food fund; and £700,000 for a financial inclusion fund. The COVID-19 charities fund — £15·5 million — was opened in June; and I will shortly open applications for a £7 million social enterprise fund.”
“I am just being straight with you: it is not straightforward. It is very cumbersome, but it is something that we absolutely have to look at, irrespective of the bedroom tax, such is the problem. The demand for social housing is increasing, but the supply is not. That will not be reconciled; it has not been. We need to be mindful of what we ask for, particularly in ensuring that we have homes that are fit for purpose. When it comes to downsizing, the experience across the board is that that is not always the case.”
“We need to ensure that the mitigations are kept, first of all. For people who wish to downsize, it is not straightforward, because the stock is not there. That is the problem. Often, even housing associations that attempted to build small, studio apartments in preparation for the bedroom tax did not get support for that because families end up living in shoeboxes, and we cannot have that. The Member will know that, even through their reclassification, housing associations cannot — the right to buy scheme has ended, and we are looking at proposals for the Housing Executive. <BR /> <BR />Anyone who is leaving their family home, where they have probably reared their children and grandchildren, needs appropriate accommodation that is proofed as suitable for living out their best years and has all the necessary adaptations.”
“The Member will know that I have always brought any substantial changes to the Committee, even in my short time, and I will continue to do that. I still consider myself to be a member of the Committee, so I know the craic. <BR /> <BR />The issue is that there are gaps. There are always gaps and things we could do better, so, if we cannot get those reflected in the legislation, we most definitely need them to be reflected in the regulations. Certainly, the three issues that I mentioned in response to the question that Cara Hunter posed are raised with us time after time, and they need to be sorted. If we have the time and the money to sort out the rest, we will certainly look at them. However, those are three huge gaps that we must try to plug.”
“In short, yes. The advice sector has received money from the Department, and it will say it probably needs to receive more. I met a section of the advice sector not so long ago. I said it at the time, and I say it again now: I appreciate the role that the independent advice sector has played, particularly through COVID-19. A lot of people were isolated, and people in the community and voluntary sector were often the first responders for people who found themselves in really difficult circumstances. We cannot take that work for granted; we need to keep investing in it. Where there are opportunities — it is about where there are opportunities — to give additional support and do specific pieces of work, this Department, particularly on Deirdre Hargey's watch, has never been found wanting.”
“They absolutely should. There are three issues that the Cliff Edge Coalition — not just them — have mentioned: the bedroom tax, the so-called two-child rule and the benefit cap. There are many other asks, but those are the three central points that we have met those coalitions on. It is absolutely something that I envisage being included in any future legislation and regulations.”
“While the delay in progressing the legislation to extend the mitigation schemes is not ideal, I stress that my Department continues to make payments to people who are eligible. That is possible because my Department has agreed contingency arrangements with the Department of Finance so that payments are currently made under the sole authority of the Budget (No. 2) Act. Those arrangements will continue and will be kept under review.”
“The New Decade, New Approach deal included a commitment to extend the welfare mitigation schemes that my Department currently delivers. That was to ensure continued assistance for vulnerable people who have lost their benefit due to welfare reform. I can confirm that I absolutely intend to introduce primary legislation to amend the Welfare Reform (NI) Order 2015 to provide for an extension of welfare mitigation payments for people affected by the so-called bedroom tax. A draft Bill has been shared with my Executive colleagues, and I am personally committed to securing agreement to proceed as a matter of urgency. I will also bring forward new regulations to provide for the extension of the remaining mitigation schemes. They will be draft affirmative, and I expect that they will be laid shortly after the Bill has been introduced.”
“For people who have been the victim of physical or psychological abuse or whatever it is that forces them to flee their home, we need to ensure that they get emergency accommodation that is as close to their family support or support systems, including schools, as possible.”
“I absolutely think that there is a need, particularly in areas outside Belfast. For example, Caoimhe Archibald mentioned to me that, in Coleraine, in her area, there was no emergency accommodation and people from that area had to go to Belfast or Derry. When you are going through a trauma like that in the mouth of a global pandemic and you have to go somewhere outside your family support to get succour and refuge, it is horrendous. It is something that I am absolutely looking at. <BR /> <BR />The other aspect of it is the impact on children's schools. We take for granted all the connections that we have as families.”
“The Member's question is important. Actually, it is worse than that: anyone fleeing their home as a result of domestic violence is not even considered as being intimidated. That featured in the review of the allocation of social points for housing. I am looking at that, because, regardless of where we are as parties, we all felt, even in debates, that that was unfair and unjust.”
“I will not be discriminating against anyone. The Member will probably appreciate that the Supporting People programme has been out for a long time now. That is not to say that there was no domestic violence against men — there was — but it certainly did not reach a number that allowed it to be included in Supporting People. I am happy to look at that, because it is about being inclusive.”
“Additionally, the Housing Executive supports a range of organisations that provide support and services to households who are homeless or are threatened with homelessness, including men suffering from domestic abuse.”
“The Member will be pleased to know that I am meeting Men’s Alliance NI to discuss support for male victims of domestic abuse. Last year, a total of 1,088 households fleeing domestic violence were accepted as statutorily homeless and therefore were considered as full-duty applicants. Between 1 April and 31 August this year, 59 single males presented as homeless citing domestic violence, 41 of whom have, to date, been accepted as homeless. <BR /> <BR />From its 2019-2020 budget, the Housing Executive spent just under £13 million supporting households who were homeless or were threatened with homelessness. That funding enables the Housing Executive to support men suffering from domestic abuse through the delivery of its statutory duties such as the provision of temporary accommodation and furniture storage.”
“<BR />The good thing about it is that everyone sees the need to legislate to protect workers. I am pleased that trade unions and people working in the pensions business are supportive of the Bill. Clear legislation and regulations are better for people who are investing their life savings in pensions, and the Bill close many of those gaps.”
“They were operating within the guidelines and within the regulations, but we need to change the legislation to ensure that people know exactly where their money is and that their savings are protected. That is important. <BR /> <BR />This is the first Bill that we have done that has gone through the normal passage. That, too, is to be welcomed. We have all dealt with a lot of accelerated passage legislation, particularly from this Department, because of COVID-19 and everything else. I look forward to the Bill going through the Committee. <BR /> <BR />The answer to whether there will be any further Bills regarding pension age or pensions is that a lot of that comes from Westminster. I hope to get this Bill as far as I can, so that Deirdre Hargey can come back and finish it all off.”
“I thank all the Members who contributed. I have to say that — no offence to Gerry, who is very good at all this — I had to read this a couple of times to try to get a sense of it. However, I understood clearly that it was a complete mess. <BR /> <BR />I will start with the point that you made. A lot of people, particularly those earning £30,000 or less, may have moved jobs, particularly if they work in the private sector or the community and voluntary sector. Given the precarious nature of funding, people move from one place to another and could have a lot of small pensions. By the time they try to consolidate them or cash them in, they are getting charged a small fortune, and it is not worth their while. I do not want to deny anybody a living in managing those pensions.”
“The Pension Schemes Bill, therefore, is firmly centred on further safeguarding workers' pensions. I believe that we can all support that, and I commend the Bill to the Assembly.”
“The Bill, therefore, supports the policy intention of capping early exit charges in occupational pension schemes and banning member-borne commission arising out of existing contracts that were entered into before 6 April 2016. <BR /> <BR />The pensions market is continually evolving and modernising, and there is clearly a need to ensure that there is adequate regulation of master trusts, given how they have developed since the introduction of automatic enrolment. I think that, by most standards, automatic enrolment can be considered a success. However, we cannot take that success for granted. I am sure that Members will agree that we must take action now to ensure that pension scheme members are enrolled only in high quality schemes that look after their interests. Well-managed schemes will help to secure pension income in retirement.”
“Previously, individuals faced a range of potential barriers, including incurring early exit charges when seeking to access their savings. Schedule 18 to the Pensions Act (Northern Ireland) 2015 allows the Department to make regulations that restrict charges or impose requirements on certain pension schemes. This Bill amends the 2015 Act to allow the Department to make regulations to provide that any term in a contract that is inconsistent with the regulations is over ridden. For example, if a contract is in place between the trustees or managers of the scheme and a person who provides services to the scheme permits an early exit charge that is higher than the level of the early exit charge cap when it is introduced, this would allow that term to be overridden.”
“Information gathering is an important part of the regulator's toolkit in the Pensions (Northern Ireland) Order 2005, which already makes it a criminal offence for individuals to fail to provide information requested by the regulator. The Bill extends these powers to include those involved in the running of master trusts. Ultimately, the regulator also has a power to withdraw a scheme's authorisation, essentially forcing it to leave the market. These powers are designed to ensure that those managing master trust schemes continue to work to protect the interests of members. <BR /> <BR />I now move to the remaining provisions of the Bill. Since the introduction of new pension freedoms in April 2015, many people aged 55 and over have been able to access their pension schemes or savings more flexibly.”
“The intention is that the list of significant events will capture events that could affect the ability of a master trust to continue meeting the authorisation criteria. For example, the scheme may have a change of trustee and, as the fitness and propriety of a trustee is linked to the authorisation criteria, the regulator must be informed of such a change so that the new trustee may be assessed against the relevant standards. <BR /> <BR />The regulator will always seek to support and assist those involved in the running of a pension scheme. However, there needs to be clear consequences for schemes that fail to comply with their duties.”
“For example, the persons involved with a scheme must be fit and proper, the scheme is financially sustainable, the scheme funder has met specific requirements, the systems and processes used for governance and administration are sufficient to ensure that the scheme runs effectively and that it has adequate continuity strategies in the event of something going wrong or the master trust otherwise seeking to exit the market. <BR /> <BR />In addition to this, the regulator will be given new powers to supervise master trusts, enabling it to intervene where schemes are at risk of falling below the required standards. The regulator must be notified in writing if significant events occur with an authorised master trust scheme.”
“By November 2019, there were 16 million members in 37 master trust schemes, holding more than £36 billion in assets. The introduction of a new authorisation regime is designed to address the legislative gap and to try to prevent problems arising in the future. A similar provision was made for England, Scotland and Wales in the Pension Schemes Act 2017. The aim is to ensure that essential protections are put in place in a way that is appropriate to the risks experienced by master trusts. <BR /> <BR />Under the new regime, master trusts will be prohibited from operating unless authorised by the Pensions Regulator. The Bill sets out specific requirements that must be met for a scheme to be authorised.”
“They can spur competition in the market, allow for economies of scale and provide value for money. They are also an efficient solution for smaller employers for whom setting up an individual pension scheme would be difficult and prohibitively expensive. Currently, master trusts here are regulated in accordance with occupational pensions legislation. However, that legislation was developed with single-employer pension schemes in mind and, consequently, it does not take into consideration the different structures and dynamics of the master trusts that give rise to different risks. <BR /> <BR />The Bill is not a response to a fundamental problem with master trusts but to the exponential growth in membership. For example, in 2010, across Britain and here, there were 0·2 million members of master trusts.”