Carál Ní Chuilín
North Belfast · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“To continue the theme of undermining public confidence and public effectiveness, I ask you this, Minister: why do you and your DUP colleagues continue to block the 'good jobs' Bill, particularly the measures for parents whose babies require neonatal care and, indeed, other measures that will support workers who are struggling with the cos…”
“At the end of the day, guns were used to kill Catholics — Davy Payne; surface-to-air missiles in South Africa and Paris and then some. I will give the deputy First Minister another opportunity not to deflect but to condemn her party's involvement in Ulster Resistance and with the red berets that they wore.”
“I thank the Minister for that response. I have a close family relative who is in need of a SPiMS unit in an Irish-medium school but cannot access one in North Belfast at all. Apart from access in P4 and P5, they will have to go to an English-speaking school, even though Irish is their first language.”
“You mentioned some of the issues that are important: trade union representation, the banning of zero-hours contracts and employees being able to have their tips and service charges. Anyone who cannot get behind these proposals needs to be clear — concerns for some, and hiding behind the industry for others.”
“First Minister, I know that, recently, you were in Ardoyne for the sod cutting of the new £3·4 million purpose-built youth facility for Ardoyne Youth Enterprise. Further to your response to Brian Kingston, can you give us an update on that project and, indeed, any others?”
“I agree 100%, Linda. That is something that we all agree on. We met many people. The Bill was published and was based on the report of the truth recovery process.”
The complete record
Every one of 2,734 lines we hold for Carál Ní Chuilín, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 6 of 55.
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a freagra.”
“Cé gur bunaíodh dualgas reachtúil le Comhaontú Aoine an Chéasta leis an Ghaelscolaíocht a chur chun cinn agus a fhorbairt, tá an Roinn ag caitheamh go héagórach le scolairí agus í ag diúltú na huirlisí cuí a fhorbairt. Fiú agus ráitis RSO ann, ní bhíonn na hábhair tacaíochta cuí ann trí mheán na Gaeilge, agus bhí ar na scoileanna a gcuid ábhar féin a fhorbairt thar na blianta. <BR /> <BR />In athbhreithniú neamhspleách IPSOS a rinneadh anuraidh ar sheirbhísí agus próisis RSO, níor luadh an Ghealscolaíocht ach an t-aon uair amháin. Níl sé sin inghlactha. I ndiaidh 50 bliain, tá bearnaí bunúsacha tuisceana ann go fóill faoin tumoideachas sna heagraíochtaí reachtúla, seirbhísí tacaíochta agus seirbhísí for-rochtána.”
“Faigheann thart ar 7,500 oideachas trí mheán na Gaeilge inár naíscoileanna, bunscoileanna agus iar-bhunscoileanna. Le fás na Gaelscolaíochta, cuireadh dúshlán mór roimh an Roinn Oideachais agus roimh na seirbhísí reachtúla, agus cuireadh bacainn i ndiaidh bacainne os comhair na hearnála maidir le maoiniú, áiseanna agus tacaíocht. Taobh leis na fadhbanna móra cóiríochta san earnáil, tá bearnaí móra sna creatlacha measúnaithe agus sa phróiseas le ráiteas riachtanas speisialta oideachais (RSO) a thabhairt. <BR /> <BR />Thug an Roinn Oideachais faoi athbhreithniú ar an Ghaelscolaíocht in 2008, agus rinneadh moltaí ar leith faoi uirlisí ardleibhéil diagnoisice a fhorbairt. In 1999, d’aithin an Chigireacht Oideachais agus Oiliúna go raibh laigí móra sa tsoláthar tacaíochta RSO san earnáil.”
“You give GPs three times out-of-hours, paying them through the private sector, but, yet and all, you will not increase the mileage for a domiciliary care package. It is disgraceful. Own that as well. Own the fact that we need to have a more collegial approach to arguing for more money. It is not just about a motion: actions speak louder than words. I would like to see us looking at the ways in which we can put our profiles forward. Make your political decision, put your financial objective and priority forward and stand over it, instead of hiding behind someone's back.”
“We get nothing. <BR /> <BR />I would like to see TEO Ministers continue to address the inescapable pressures that they have talked about. They want to see an end to violence against women and girls. We have all made commitments around historical institutional abuse and around the mother-and-baby institutions. Some of us are making commitments to equality, while others see good relations as a priority. Either way, we cannot lose sight of the communities that are working really hard all year long, all week long and all weekend long to keep the peace. Unless they are funded, our summers could be completely different. <BR /> <BR />We also need to be honest about the money that we put into the private sector, particularly in health and social care. Domiciliary care is the lowest paid and last thought of. Own it — absolutely own it.”
“No, thanks, Mark. The fact is that the Opposition are funded to do all of that, maybe not to the level that they need, but they certainly have the resources. What do we get? Faic.”
“Instead, what we have is a petulant response: if you do not get what, you feel, you need, you will vote against. That is not political maturity. I smell an election, and that is why I am completely disappointed. To be frank, Robin has always risen above that nonsense, but he did not do so today. <BR /> <BR />In the long term, I also want to see what official opposition to the Budget will look like. I hear what we are all doing wrong and what we all need to do more of, but I see no proposals at all coming from the Opposition, despite being here for 100-odd days.”
“I did not hear about the reinstatement of moneys to Women's Aid, which represents the most vulnerable women in our society. They are vulnerable as a result of domestic abuse. It is a political decision not to fund that work, so let us not be fooled. <BR /> <BR />Regardless of what chair of what group has said what, we need to take decisions and own them. I do not see any Ministers being happy with the budget that they have got. We can agree on that, but what I have found disappointing, if not uncomfortable, is what I hear from the Ulster Unionist Party. I see Mike Nesbitt staring straight at me, so I will stare straight back at him. I would like to see him get his portfolio of money and make decisions on what, he feels, are his priorities so that we can scrutinise him on that basis.”
“<BR /> <BR />There is also no doubt in my head that the interim fiscal framework, which, again, the Finance Minister secured, was a game changer, by ensuring that, for the most part, the funding in the Budget must meet the level of need and, hopefully, be above it. That is where we need to go. <BR /> <BR />As it stands, we will get slightly more money in the short term. For me, however, and for each of us on our Committees, our interests and the pressures that we face mean that we will say similar things, yet we will come away from the debate thinking differently. For example, when I look at the Department of Health, having heard what the former Minister — well, he still is the Minister — had to say about his priorities, I did not hear mental health mentioned. I did not hear domiciliary care mentioned.”
“That is accepted, and, thankfully, Caoimhe Archibald, the Finance Minister, will continue to keep the pressure on the British Government on behalf of the Executive to ensure that the funding disparity is addressed. <BR /> <BR />We also need to look at alternatives by raising our own money. Those alternatives are not introducing water charges, introducing prescription charges, taking bus passes away from pensioners or stuff like that, but we need a proper discussion about how this place will be continually funded. From what I have heard, I have concerns that, whatever British Government are next, this place is not their priority. This place has never been the British Government's priority, and people need to be honest about that.”
“For a moment, Colin, I had a flashback to Nichola Mallon, who was in the Executive and also voted against, when she spoke about potholes and all the rest, but we will say nothing. She still voted against the Budget and asked for more money. That is constructive opposition. <BR /> <BR />I will focus on the fact that a lot of Members have said that they are deeply unhappy with the financial situation and that the onslaught of Tory cuts — those are my words and probably not what some would say — has had a massive impact on Budgets here. There has been a recognition that the British Government have consistently funded the Executive well below levels of need.”
“In short: you are waiting on the submission on the FICT implementation plan. When do you anticipate its coming forward? Will it be before or after the summer recess?”
“It is clear that, in this case, Dr Aiken's conduct was, indeed, an egregious breach of the rules, and therefore the Committee believes that the recommended sanction of excluding Dr Aiken from Assembly proceedings for a period of two sitting days is appropriate and proportionate. I commend the motion.”
“It was also found that Dr Aiken's conduct was inconsistent with both the respect principle and the leadership principle of the seven principles of public life. <BR /> <BR />As the previous Committee was able to publish its report only at the very end of the last mandate, it called on the next Committee to recommend a sanction in this mandate. The current Committee has proceeded with the case as quickly as possible. In reality, it has brought the motion within eight operational weeks of the report being published, leaving aside the time when the Assembly was not fully functioning. The Committee carefully considered the particular circumstances of the case against the range and scale of sanctions available. <BR /> <BR />It is a serious matter. The code of conduct sets out the standards required of Members.”
“I am sorry, but I have a lot to get through. I am sorry about that. <BR /> <BR />On rule 16, the previous Committee pointed to the importance of all Members recognising and respecting the vital role that the independent commissioner plays in the Assembly's ethical standards regime. The Committee concluded that Dr Aiken's failure to cooperate at all times with the commissioner's investigation was misconduct that undermines the office of the commissioner and, consequently, the Committee and the wider Assembly. Moreover, the previous Committee concluded that that was an egregious breach of the code, given that, as a member of the Committee on Standards and Privileges at the time, Dr Aiken should have been leading by example in that regard.”
“by the Assembly commissioner. On rule 12, the previous Committee highlighted the importance of maintaining the confidentiality of live complaints in order to safeguard the fairness and integrity of the process and to avoid any unnecessary reputational damage to any of the parties involved.”
“It was also reported in the media on 5 November 2020 that, following investigation and adjudication, Dr Aiken's complaint had not been upheld and that Mr McHugh was found not to have breached the code. On the back of Dr Aiken's disclosure, Mr McHugh submitted a complaint against Dr Aiken, and it is that complaint that forms the basis of today's debate. <BR /> <BR />Following investigation and adjudication, Dr Aiken was found to have breached two rules of conduct, namely rule 12 and rule 16. By way of reminder, rule 12 states that a Member:”
“At a meeting of the Finance Committee on 4 November 2020, Dr Aiken, as Chair of that Committee, disclosed publicly that he had submitted a complaint to the commissioner relating to a member of the Committee, Mr McHugh. The disclosure included both the fact and the detail of his complaint against Mr McHugh, which was the allegation that Mr McHugh had failed to declare an interest while the Committee was receiving evidence on mispayments by Land and Property Services (LPS) of the COVID-19 business support grants. <BR /> <BR />The public discussion of Dr Aiken's complaint in the Finance Committee, which Dr Aiken initiated, facilitated and participated in, lasted 27 minutes.”
“<BR /> <BR />In undertaking its adjudication, the previous Committee received a briefing from the commissioner; a submission from Dr Aiken in response to the commissioner's report in which he criticised the investigatory process; a robust and factual rebuttal from the commissioner of the criticisms made in Dr Aiken's submission; and detailed legal advice on the case. Following deliberation, the previous Committee published its conclusions in a report on 25 March 2022, which, incidentally, was the last day of the previous mandate. <BR /> <BR />Although the previous Committee's report has been in the public domain for over two years now, I will briefly remind Members of some of the key findings of the case.”
“On 4 May 2021, the independent Assembly Commissioner for Standards received a complaint from Mr Maolíosa McHugh MLA, alleging that, during a meeting of the Finance Committee, Dr Aiken had breached the Assembly code of conduct by disclosing both the fact and the contents of a complaint that Dr Aiken had made against Mr McHugh. The commissioner's investigation of the complaint concluded in February 2022, when she sent her report to the previous Standards and Privileges Committee for consideration.”
“I welcome the opportunity to open the debate on the motion from the Committee on Standards and Privileges. The purpose of the motion is clear: to seek Assembly approval of the Committee's decision to impose on Dr Steve Aiken the sanction of exclusion from the proceedings of the Assembly for a period of two sitting days. If the motion is approved, Dr Aiken will be unable to participate in plenary proceedings on 13 and 14 May. He will also be unable to table any business or attend any Committee meetings if they happen to be scheduled to take place on those days. <BR /> <BR />Before outlining the previous Committee's conclusions on the complaint against Dr Aiken, I will explain the timeline of the case.”
“Minister, given the focus that you have rightly put on regional balance, will you please ensure that the focus of the social economy and community wealth building is on areas of deprivation such as the north-west and parts of Belfast?”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a fhreagra.”
“Will the First Minister confirm whether there is a timeline for the negotiations? I appreciate that April 2025 is the deadline, but is there a timeline for the negotiations to ensure that all the other four institutions not only make an interim payment but make their payment in full?”
“I thank Members for their support. I commend the motion as proposed by Órlaithí.”
“I thank all groups. For us, it is about where the need is. Órlaithí, as a Member for West Belfast, and I, as a Member for North Belfast, are going to argue for Belfast, but we want a needs-based approach to be taken to every available resource.”
“Addiction is prevalent right throughout the family, and it seems that, the bigger the conflict and the bigger its impact, the more likely addiction is to become almost hereditary.”
“The Member is right, and that is what I said at the start. All those professionals, be it in health, housing, education or the community, are really compassionate, but they are not equipped. The saying that we all live in and rely on each other's shadows is really evident, but we need somewhere. We need a place where it actually says, "You can come here and we can try to help", and that pathway and references to all the other supports that are there will be very clear. <BR /> <BR />The other elephant in the room is that we are a post-conflict generation — now into three and going into four generations. We need to take a trauma-informed approach to addiction. I have seen the grandchildren of people who have been through the conflict, and who lost members of their family during the conflict, and I cannot dismiss the coincidence.”
“Somebody who was really sick was more deserving than them. They took the brave step of going to the Mater to get help, and they did eventually get it, but they got it from other addicts. They went to housing, and it was almost like, "You cannot get a house", and when that person did get a house or was offered temporary accommodation, drug-related problems were prevalent in that area, and, because they wanted to get clean, they could not go.”
“<BR /> <BR />The other aspect — I would say that we all have experienced this — is that I have sat looking at really elderly constituents who are paying off debts to drug dealers on behalf of their grandkids. They are going to credit unions and going everywhere because they do not want their grandkids getting hurt. For me, that is an absolute disgrace, because the grandparents of the people who are coming to their doors know the grandparents whom they are squeezing. They all know each other's families and they really do not care, but we care, and that is the clear message that needs to go out today. <BR /> <BR />In preparation for today, I talked to someone who still considers themselves an addict, and they explained to me that, when they went to the Mater looking for help, they were seen as a nuisance.”
“<BR /> <BR />The NISRA report is very helpful, but for me, as someone living in one of the most deprived constituencies, I could almost — I am sure that we do — put together a list of things that people are going to be affected by: poverty, ill health, poor mental health, poor housing, poor educational outcomes and the rest. They are very resilient people and very proud people, but I have seen the journey that people have been on. Unfortunately, a lot of us have gone to wakes after family members have died because they "loved a wee drink" or because they "had a wee problem". Now people are saying that he or she "was an addict", and they are saying that because the rest of the community knows exactly what it means.”
“That is what they do, and I do not think that anyone is under any other illusion about what they are, because that is what they do. <BR /> <BR />I had and have the privilege — I am sure that we all do — of working with a lot of really compassionate people who go above and beyond. For example, they go into Belfast city centre — you know: this out of sight, out of mind — and talk to addicts on the street. They try to work with their families. They give them food and clothes, and they also help them with benefits. I visited the People's Kitchen when this place was recently restored, and the families there would have broken your heart.”
“One thing that everybody has in abundance is care and compassion, so that needs to be put on the record. <BR /> <BR />All Members who have spoken have raised the issue that drug dealers are death dealers. I do not care what organisation they were or are affiliated with: they are armed gangs who peddle misery and kill kids, and that is it. Sin é.”
“I just want to put on record my thanks to you for swapping our chairing duties so that I could speak on this very important issue today. I also thank Órlaithí and Alan for moving the motion and the amendment. <BR /> <BR />When we are talking about mental health and addiction, the whole issue of dual diagnosis comes up every single time. Like many others, I have worked with health and social care professionals, in hospital settings and within the community, who have said that they are frustrated and that they want to try to help people, but there is still a lack of understanding about what dual diagnosis is. Diane Dodds explained it by saying that someone comes forward for help and they are under the influence of drugs, alcohol or both, and trying to help someone in those circumstances needs specialism and proper training.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.”
“Does the Minister of Justice agree that a more joined-up approach at community level — through education with the police, Community Restorative Justice Ireland and anyone else, including residents — is needed? These attacks on the community, individuals and people's homes must be condemned by everyone. Does the Minister agree that it is crucial that the funding that is needed be confirmed as soon as possible?”
“Minister, I have been in your position where officials, in good faith, give you an answer and you use it in a response. I am telling you that what you have said is not fact. My constituent Alex Duffy died in January of this year as a result of complications of services received in the RVH. That was an adverse incident, as far as I am aware. If it was not, it should have been. I ask the Minister to go back and ask again how many children and young people with disabilities and complex histories have had adverse reactions. I know for a fact that Alex is one, but there are others.”
“If the Executive were to go to court, however, and say, "I hear what you are saying, but there is nothing that we can do", that is not something that any of us wants on our watch. I will leave it there.”
“I declare an interest. When I was Minister for Communities, I put this in my housing statement of November 2020. We looked at potentially ring-fencing areas of highest need. We did so to try to build homes in order to reduce homelessness. It is not an artificial way of doing so, because it works. Doing that had been removed by the SDLP Minister in 2010 and 2011. <BR /> <BR />Minister, if you can, I also want you to look at different ways in which we can try to relieve homelessness. It may mean holding a summit or pooling the best brains to look at what we can do. I do not want anyone to be trotting up to the courts to try to get a judicial review of why people have been on the housing waiting list for four years. Legally, anyone would be perfectly entitled to do that.”
“Some can borrow additional money, but it always comes back to a lack of land, so, even if they had the money, housing associations are not getting enough land. We therefore may need to look at vesting. I ask the Minister and his officials not so much to look at vesting, because it is always a last resort, but to have discussions with Belfast City Council and Antrim and Newtownabbey Borough Council and with other councils on the outskirts of North Belfast, or with the Belfast Harbour Commissioners, to see what else we can do.”
“<BR /> <BR />I know that the Minister's officials will say something different about this. It is not that they are disagreeable — I have had this out with them, and they disagree — but housing associations tell me that the amendment of article 15 of the Housing Order 1992 prevents them from building homes for sale. They are saying that, if they could build homes for sale within their envelope of providing social houses, they could put that back in and that could be used for a bigger pot.”
“That will be the biggest change in planning policy for probably a generation, but there may be opportunities through that. Percentage limits were put on people buying a home, whereby a percentage of those homes could be social and vice versa. However, there are opportunities for what private developers and housing associations can do under the LDP. <BR /> <BR />I know that councils do not have development powers — those powers were removed over 50 years ago — but I would like the Department to explore what can be done with local government, with all the equality protections that are there with the common selection scheme. To be frank, we are running out of land and road in North Belfast. There are three and four generations now living under one roof, and it is horrible. It is horrible for the kids, and it is horrible for the families.”
“Do you know what the difference in rent is? £450 per month. <BR /> <BR />There are lots of reasons why the supply has not been maintained. Some landlords just cannot afford it. If it is a family home, they are selling it on; for others, it is just not the market for them. I have spoken to, I think, every housing association about whether they had approached the Department or, in particular, the Housing Executive to ask whether they had land or whether they could go into joint ventures with other housing associations in the provision of social housing in North Belfast. <BR /> <BR />As with everything, if you get a lot of people in one room, they have a list of demands. The issue and the opportunity for us is whether we can explore the local development plans (LDPs) coming from the councils.”
“<BR /> <BR />In relation to housing in North Belfast — I know that colleagues have experienced this across the piece — you would have had the potential of a supply coming from the private rented sector. That is not the case any more. In fact, I dealt with a constituent last Friday who works in the Mater Hospital and is paying almost £900 per month for accommodation in north Belfast. She is having to leave. She was successful in getting accommodation elsewhere, but she considers herself to be a member of the Catholic community and her kids go to secondary school, and the affordable property was in an area where children would not go to Catholic post-primary schools. She is concerned. It is not to say that people are deliberately setting out. She is rearing grown-up teenagers, and she is just concerned.”
“We are asking for the Department, along with the Housing Executive but under your leadership in the Department, to be the advocate for housing need across our part of the constituency. <BR /> <BR />You have probably seen the figures, because I asked the questions. In North Belfast, there are around 4,400 applicants on the housing waiting list. Those figures are from 2022-23. A total of 3,479 are deemed to be living in housing stress, yet the estimate is that just 655 homes have been built. Ironically and disappointingly, they are not always in the areas of the constituencies that we represent. We are glad that those houses are built; we are just saying that they are not enough, and they are certainly not in the areas of greatest demand.”
“Those were the figures that were put on the record. <BR /> <BR />There was not only a perception but a belief that any available land in that area had been earmarked under different housing strategies for potential social housing. When I was CAL Minister, we looked at whether land behind the central library could run contiguously. We wanted to use the "Public land for public housing" approach, where we could try to bring pockets of land together for housing. That was not achieved, certainly with DCAL, but it certainly was in terms of plot 8, which was DFC's, and the Belfast City Council piece of land in that area, which is now the strategic site assessment. The context is that any bit of land that could be used for development — there is a need for older people's housing, folds and different things— is gobbled up by private developers.”
“It is not just the part that I represent, live in or whatever; it is accepted that the need is everywhere. I think that my colleagues from North Belfast will appreciate that there are stubborn parts of North Belfast that have not meaningfully shifted. I hope that we take a collegial approach to that. <BR /> <BR />One of the issues that have exercised many people across most, but not all, of the parties in Belfast City Council is the emergence of many managed student accommodation blocks. Initially, when we asked, for example, Ulster University and Queen's University — it was less Queen's and more Ulster — about the need for student beds in the city centre, they told us that it was 1,500. That figure has gone up to 15,000. I know that because I attended planning appeals against managed student accommodation in Union Street.”
“Thank you, a LeasCheann Comhairle. For your benefit, Minister, I did not want to start until you were here, so I asked for us to wait for a couple of minutes. I put on record my appreciation of your being here. I suspect that this is an issue that you are very interested in. I know that your party colleague Phillip Brett is, and, when Brian is here, he will be as well. I see that you have at least one of your officials there: David Polley. He will probably have you well briefed on housing statistics. <BR /> <BR />North Belfast is normally in the top three or four areas of greatest housing stress. I think that the concern for us all is that, as well as housing supply, there are many issues, but it is certainly about getting enough land to build houses where they are needed. Every part of the constituency needs homes.”
“A LeasCheann Comhairle, can we wait for a couple of minutes to allow the Communities Minister to arrive? We are at least an hour early. Is that possible?”
“Following on from that response, what consideration, if any, can be given to ensuring that the gender budgeting process can be improved?”