Carál Ní Chuilín
North Belfast · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“To continue the theme of undermining public confidence and public effectiveness, I ask you this, Minister: why do you and your DUP colleagues continue to block the 'good jobs' Bill, particularly the measures for parents whose babies require neonatal care and, indeed, other measures that will support workers who are struggling with the cos…”
“At the end of the day, guns were used to kill Catholics — Davy Payne; surface-to-air missiles in South Africa and Paris and then some. I will give the deputy First Minister another opportunity not to deflect but to condemn her party's involvement in Ulster Resistance and with the red berets that they wore.”
“I thank the Minister for that response. I have a close family relative who is in need of a SPiMS unit in an Irish-medium school but cannot access one in North Belfast at all. Apart from access in P4 and P5, they will have to go to an English-speaking school, even though Irish is their first language.”
“You mentioned some of the issues that are important: trade union representation, the banning of zero-hours contracts and employees being able to have their tips and service charges. Anyone who cannot get behind these proposals needs to be clear — concerns for some, and hiding behind the industry for others.”
“First Minister, I know that, recently, you were in Ardoyne for the sod cutting of the new £3·4 million purpose-built youth facility for Ardoyne Youth Enterprise. Further to your response to Brian Kingston, can you give us an update on that project and, indeed, any others?”
“I agree 100%, Linda. That is something that we all agree on. We met many people. The Bill was published and was based on the report of the truth recovery process.”
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“The health regulations and restrictions that we have had had to bring in as a result of the global pandemic have prevented theatres from opening their doors. Certainly, performers and maybe even one- or two-piece bands who make their living that way faced a double whammy last week, as the Member said. A fund is already available now if the Member knows anyone who needs it. The Arts Council is looking to help people in that situation until the end of October. We need to ensure that we help as many people as possible over, I imagine, the next few months, particularly those who have had no recourse to public funds at all.”
“That is exactly what I want to try to do as best I possibly can.”
“An arts and culture strategy was about to be produced, but then the Assembly collapsed. So there is one sitting there that is three years old, but some of the people who contributed to it are saying that it is not reflective of what was there three years ago. I can try to help as many people as possible, but I also want to ensure that those who have never received or had any recourse to public finance or public money are serviced as well. If we just look after the big institutions, there is nothing left for anyone else. I am sure the Member would agree that that is not a satisfactory position.”
“I thank the Member for his question, because it is really important, in relation not just to NDNA but to this process going forward. The weakness is that there is no arts, culture and heritage strategy — none whatsoever — and so we are all in a big queue, hoping to join that queue, put in an application and get something. That is not a good way to do business. If we accept — and we do — that culture, arts and heritage not only help people but generate the economy, then they need to be put on a proper footing. I have met a group of musicians who are looking at a music strategy. I spoke to some freelancers who need to be supported as well. They have all said that, long term, they need to see an arts and culture strategy in the same way as there is one for sports. For me, that is a big weakness.”
“I thank the Member for his supplementary question. I have literally just come out of a meeting with Minister Dodds on this very issue of people who are involved in events, music, sound and all that background stuff, as well as looking at some of the bigger establishments. What I want to say is this: arts and culture are an evolving thing. People who are recipients of Arts Council funds are still getting their funds, but there are other groups who have been doing really, really great work, particularly since March, and taking the lead who have not got one penny of public funds. We need to ensure that they are looked after as well.”
“I thank the Member for his question. He will be aware that the Executive announced £29 million of investment to support our culture, language, arts and heritage sectors. This is additional to the £5·5 million creative fund previously announced. These sectors make a substantial contribution to our local economy, the quality of our lives, our health and well-being, and the shaping of our standing as a place to live, work and visit. They have a vital role in delivering social renewal for communities and, indeed, the economy. My Department is finalising proposals for a suite of funding schemes to maximise the impact of this very welcome financial support in these most challenging times.”
“The Member will be aware that Deirdre Hargey brought forward measures to prevent evictions, particularly during the pandemic. I continued those, and extended them to next March. Unfortunately, the mortgage relief scheme, which helped a lot of people, was taken away by the Tory Government, as happened many, many years ago. I have spoken to people in my constituency who are receiving mortgage holidays, but achieving that is, in itself, a very stressful process. The measures that the Department, along with the Housing Executive and housing associations, put in to ensure that people were not evicted, are still there. The Housing Rights Service is still there to ensure that anybody who finds themselves in that situation gets help as early as possible. We need to ensure that evictions under those circumstances are consigned to the past.”
“I am acutely aware that we are moving into three generations of people living in housing stress. That is completely unacceptable.”
“My main reason for rejecting the Living Over the Shop grant scheme was that I had received a lot of reports that it was not value for money. Grants for private accommodation over shops, which need disability access, proper storage and space, would mean additional public spend, so it did not work out as value for money. <BR /> <BR />Ensuring that we increase supply to reduce demand is a big challenge. In the next lot of weeks, I will bring forward proposals, looking at our NDNA commitments, revitalising the Housing Executive and examining how we can make it exempt from paying corporation tax, so that that money could go back into the system. We will also look at historical debt and how we will deal with it so that the Housing Executive will be allowed to build.”
“Absolutely. The need for homes to meet the needs of an ageing population and people with disabilities, as well as accessibility to such homes in areas where people want to live, raise their family and grow, has been raised a lot in the Assembly. In the past, our housing stock was sold under the right to buy, and the stock was never replaced. That is a big issue. In many respects, that displaced a lot of communities. They went to the private rented sector, which was OK at the time, but, because of a lack of security, they have had to move elsewhere — in some instances, a substantial distance away. We have a big challenge, but we are very aware of what we need to do, particularly in rural communities.”
“The Member will be keen to know that I have met with the rural community network on that issue. I have a responsibility to ensure that there is rural proofing, but my main focus and responsibility is to ensure that those in greatest housing need are housed. We are tackling a massive list, across the board. I know that many in rural communities have moved to or settled in the private rental sector and that there is a lack of security of tenure. That is a big issue. Transformation of housing is something that I will be taking forward within the next few weeks.”
“The most recent waiting list figures for East Londonderry stood at 2,167, from which 1,241 applicants were deemed to be in housing stress. I am acutely aware that the number of people who are on the waiting list, along with those deemed to be in housing stress, remains very challenging, not only for that constituency but right across the entire North. That is why I am focusing on delivering as many new social homes as possible with the available funding, and I am also keen that we consider ways that we can increase the supply of new social homes to reduce the demand.”
“The answer is absolutely, yes. This has, unfortunately, been a perennial problem. Up until now there have been a lot of complaints, but there have been absolutely no requests, that I am aware of, for changes in the legislation or even additional powers. I am going to check it out to be sure, but let me be clear again: if there are requests, we will certainly look at them. Indeed, I am not going to pass the buck at all. In April last year, responsibility for HMOs was passed to Belfast City Council, on behalf of all the other councils, but if the councils feel that that arrangement need to be tweaked or to be changed, let us have a look at it before the review kicks in next year.”
“The Member will be aware that the junior Ministers, on behalf of the Executive, are responsible for convening the group. I will not comment on what other Ministers do. If I am asked to look at additional powers, regulations or even additional support for councils, I am willing to do that. No one should be living in their homes in fear or unable to get a night's sleep: their kids are going to school absolutely exhausted and their quality of life is completely diminished, and that is unacceptable. I know that the universities have stepped up to the challenges well in trying to ensure that if reminders are needed, they have been given, and they were quite public about that last week. We seem to discuss this problem every year and we need to fix it.”
“First of all, I agree that there is an obligation on landlords to ensure that their tenants are behaving responsibly. There is also a focus and, certainly, a responsibility on landlords because in order for them to get their licence for HMOs, they need to have fitness testing. There is also a responsibility on us all to be good neighbours. I concur with Paula Bradshaw that even before the return to university started, there were problems with houses getting cleared out, with the debris that was left for local residents. Unfortunately, that left Belfast City Council to pick up the tab. So there is a need to ensure that landlords fully accept their responsibilities, including before tenants go into their houses, when they are in those houses and when they leave them and before new tenants come in.”
“My officials have been part of working groups along with Belfast City Council officials, and I am quite open in saying that, if they feel that the powers that they have are not strong enough, Belfast City Council officials need to feed that back to us. <BR /> <BR />There is a big focus on landlords here as well as on tenants, because tenants have to be responsible for their behaviour. If it does come back to us from Belfast City Council, which is operating licensing on behalf of all councils, that there is a need for additional powers and additional enforcement, I am happy to look at strengthening councils' powers.”
“As well as providing support and assistance to councils on the development of the HMO licensing scheme, my Department has provided detailed guidance for local government on the exercise of its HMO licensing functions and a statutory code of practice for landlords to manage their properties to the required standards. <BR /> <BR />My officials will continue to participate in various cross-departmental groups, including those convened recently by the junior Ministers, and to work with all stakeholders to address ongoing issues in the Holylands.”
“I thank the Member for her question. As she knows, the responsibility for coronavirus health protection regulations lies with the Department of Health. My Department has, however, published guidance for private rented sector landlords and tenants that includes information on shared houses. The guidance makes it clear that everyone living in a HMO is a member of a single household. I have no doubt that every Member of the Assembly will join me in appealing for all people in all types of households to adhere to the regulations and guidance. <BR /> <BR />The operation of licensing for HMOs is a matter for local government and is currently led by Belfast City Council on behalf of all councils.”
“The Member will be aware that the issue was raised at even the most recent Question Time. It really is important that, first, the hearing take place as close to the person as is possible. As the Member knows, they are all in Belfast. Not everybody who applies for the benefit is from Belfast, so we need to do something about that. <BR /> <BR />We need to ensure that the ability for someone to accompany an applicant is still there should the hearing take place by telephone, by teleconferencing or in person. As other Members have said, the independent advice sector that supports people needs in particular to be supported properly, in order to ensure that all, should they be an applicant or an appellant, are given the support that they need. More often than not, applying for those benefits is a very stressful process for people.”
“Pat, I am unaware of what the process is for the long-term stuff, but I am certainly happy to look at it, because, as I said in response to Trevor Lunn, we need to make the process as easy as possible for people to access.”
“I thank the Member for his question. There is a big backlog. Appeals Service has commenced listing a number of hearings and will continue to work with the President of Appeal Tribunals and DFC to ensure that more cases are listed for hearing. Appeals Service has obtained a number of licences for technology options so that it can run a number of hearings at the same time. It is also refreshing the hearing-type options with appellants using those technology options, and that will hopefully result in earlier hearing dates.”
“I concur with the Member; the support that the independent advice sector gives people going through that process is very much valued by me and my Department. I am looking at funding for the independent advice sector, including some of the grassroots groups and even through the Appeals Service and others. I am sure that the Member agrees that it is important that we make it as easy as possible for people. When they are applying for that benefit, it is because they really need it. We need to make the process as easy and simple as possible for them.”
“Maith thú, a Threabhair. I recognise that there is an impact on waiting times for all appeal types as a result of the pandemic. My Department has worked with the President of Appeal Tribunals to offer appellants a range of hearing type options, including face-to-face oral hearings; oral hearings using teleconference; oral hearings using video-link facilities; and a paper determination based on papers before the tribunal panel. Paper-determination cases commenced only on 6 July 2020. Oral hearings using technology options will commence with effect from today, 28 September 2020. Face-to-face oral hearings are set to recommence from mid-October at the main hearing centre. I have asked that alternative accommodation options be sought to facilitate hearings in local towns and villages.”
“By and large, the private rented sector has played an important role. I am not saying that it does not have a role to play. However, it is not acceptable that the private rented sector is now being used to deliver a public and statutory duty and obligation. That is not acceptable. Public money should not be put into the private rented sector at the detriment of people who need a social home. <BR /> <BR />I thank the Members who spoke for their contributions. I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to the debate.”
“Some people who really need social housing not only deserve it but are being held in a situation where they feel as though they are almost locked into private rented accommodation and have nowhere else to go. That is absolutely horrendous. I, too, have been in that situation with small children. <BR /> <BR />There is a lot to be said, particularly when we talk about city centre living, and I would like to end on this: Carrick Hill, the Market, the Strand and all around York Road, those communities are still there generations later and have been part of the city since well before a lot of those other places in Belfast emerged. I do believe that each of us will have examples of that in our own towns and villages. It is important to try to sustain communities and to sustain families, but we also have to be honest.”
“I commend the Member for South Belfast for her dignity in not responding to Mr Beggs's attempt to mansplain. If anyone has to go into a hostel with two small children after they have lost their home in the private rented sector, that is exactly the reason why the amendment needs to be supported, not the motion. <BR /> <BR />Gerry Carroll mentioned that sustainability and affordability are an issue, as did many other Members, and that is the case. Housing Executive and housing associations' rents need to be better reconciled. As has been mentioned previously, some people refuse housing association homes because they cannot afford the rent. Rent in the private rented sector, even with a public subsidy, is higher than it needs to be. I believe that there is mission creep going on here. It is not a renters' market.”
“No, thanks. I do not agree with some of the ways that the Members suggested. <BR /> <BR />Sinéad Ennis also mentioned the NDNA commitment on objective need, particularly in relation to some of Sinn Féin's proposals as part of those negotiations; on removing corporation tax and the historic debt in order to allow the Housing Executive to build more homes, despite the fact, as she pointed out, rightly, that it has missed targets each year. While, some years, there is an explanation, the Housing Executive needs to be a bigger champion and better advocate for people who are homeless and on the housing waiting list than it is currently. <BR /> <BR />I want to thank Clare for talking about her experience, because, sometimes, I think that that is missing.”
“Apologies. <BR /> <BR />I believe that it is generally accepted that there is a housing crisis and that we need to look at ways in which to deal with it. However, I do not agree with some of the —.”
“As twee — not as twee, but as good as our upbringing was, our happy memories — there are good memories — and the fact that it grounded us all, I know that, given the housing figures in some of the areas of highest demand, families are being brought up in homes that are meant for one or two people on their own with no children. <BR /> <BR />Kellie and I were on the Committee with Fra and Mark. I, honestly, think that there is a nervousness in the Alliance Party about objective need, because I found both your contribution and John's convoluted and confused. While you support the motion and not the amendment, and spoke about NDNA and the need for inclusive space, you went on to talk about concerns about access —.”
“That needs to change. Mark Durkan mentioned the need to look at opportunities, not just to have greater supply but to ensure that as much good-quality housing as possible is delivered without rushing to give out grants. That is quite appropriate. <BR /> <BR />Roy Beggs spoke next to support the motion and not the amendment. He mentioned planning and conservation concerns and planning policies. While all those issues are correct, it goes back to the point that Pat made. I grew up in Carrick Hill, an area with great Victorian character, but plumbing that was not great, outside toilets and overcrowding, with four generations living under one roof.”
“Given the economic conditions that we are living in, hardly anyone could dispute that. However, wedging public money for housing to landlords is not going to happen. <BR /> <BR />Fra McCann moved the amendment, spoke about the previous policy and spend, highlighted the role that councils play in other plans and developments, and, in particular, spoke about the challenge of delivering effective outcomes that was faced in the past. One of those outcomes was inclusion. <BR /> <BR />Mark, you can check these figures out, but I think that West Belfast has the highest number on the housing waiting list; North Belfast is next; and Foyle is after that. To be frank, those figures are not good. Those constituencies are in the top three. They have persistently been in the top three because there has been systematic inequality in housing for decades.”
“<BR /> <BR />It is clear that there are currently problems faced by town and city centres, and this needs to be addressed as part of the TEO high street task force. There was a clear lesson in the Living over the Shop pilot. There are fundamental issues that went beyond the influence of the scheme. The focus of any future intervention by my Department will always remain on targeting those in most need. I firmly believe that this focus should increase supply to reduce demand. In the meantime, the Department for Communities will continue to work actively to engage with councils and, indeed, other bodies, particularly in rural communities, to work with their local plans. <BR /> <BR />I will now turn to some of the contributions. Jonathan Buckley moved the motion and spoke of the need to revitalise our town and city centres.”
“For example, in Belfast, a key policy objective that we share with Belfast City Council is to increase the residential population living in the city centre and around the city core, in line with the local development plan. This will include the provision of 20% social and affordable housing in proposed schemes. One example of this process in action is my Department's input into the strategic site assessments conducted by the council, which identified a number of key sites that it currently owns. However, it is not just Belfast. My Department has taken practical steps to help regenerate urban centres and provide housing right across the North. We are involved in mixed-use regeneration schemes that will deliver affordable and more social homes. These efforts will undoubtedly improve the economic and social fabric of our town centres.”
“Some of the work includes an advice note on delivering affordable housing, with planning conditions for any new housing development; a new definition of affordable housing; scoping new types of intermediate housing, including new initiatives within the private rented sector, such as below-market intermediate rents; and partnering with Belfast City Council, in part to fund a study to understand the viability of housing development, including affordable housing provision. The Housing Executive has engaged with councils on a strategic and scheme basis to ensure that housing need is addressed locally. <BR /> <BR />My officials are also working with local authorities on urban regeneration projects and programmes that have a strong housing element, and I would like to highlight some of the work that we are doing.”
“I welcome the fact that councils are supporting this through their local development plans to increase the provision of housing in their towns and cities. <BR /> <BR />My Department has undertaken a wide range of work to assist councils in developing and implementing affordable housing policies through the local development plan process, and my officials are keen to continue to collaborate with councils on this very important work.”
“No. <BR /> <BR />Given the high level of housing stress here, my primary focus will be on increasing the supply of public housing in future. A grant scheme for developers that does not aim to specifically increase the provision of public housing is not part of my plans. As I said at the start, that does not mean that I am not going to look at options or a range of other measures to help reimagine or regenerate our towns and cities. However, putting public money into vacant shop spaces while there is such a growing need for social housing cannot be reconciled. My Department is therefore committed to finding new and innovative ways of increasing the supply and, indeed, affordability of housing.”
“Personally, I see no evidence that any of this has changed. To be clear, I have no plans to reinstate, under any circumstances, the Living over the Shop scheme. Indeed, the provision of a public subsidy to support the creation of new homes by private developers, potentially at the expense of additional public housing, is something that I will not support.”
“The provision of a small grant scheme, or any grant scheme, did not significantly overcome these issues and, as a result, the scheme hardly managed to deliver any homes. Moreover, as private and public funding was directed towards the provision of private dwellings, there was no increase in the delivery of public housing.”
“However, the scheme closed to new applicants in 2009, due not only to budgetary constraints but to its absolute failure to deliver on anticipated outcomes. An independent review of the scheme supported that analysis. It was a grant scheme; it did not make any significant difference to housing supply or regeneration; and focus then moved on to other work that held more promise. <BR /> <BR />The report was clear that there were numerous issues causing the underutilisation of former commercial space in towns and city centres, and some of those issues have been raised today, issues such as planning, building control, health and safety, financing, insurance, rates, the layout of the buildings and disability access.”
“However, the basis for my Department to intervene with a subsidy to the private housing market will always be around the provision of public housing allocated on the basis of objective need, given the scale of the housing stress that was mentioned here today in the debate. <BR /> <BR />You all have the background notes on the Living over the Shop scheme. The Department funded the scheme for conversion projects from commercial to private residential properties. The scheme was aimed at encouraging the development of homes and empty spaces above high street shops and was targeted primarily at creating private homes for sale or rent. The LOTS scheme was then an attempt to help urban centres by providing housing and reusing buildings.”
“I thank the contributors to the debate and welcome the opportunity to speak on the motion. <BR /> <BR />First, in relation to addressing the question about the Living over the Shop scheme — the debate brought this out in a much broader sense — I fully recognise the role that a repurposed and attractive space can play in the success of town centres and making high streets desirable places to live. However, my priority is providing accessible, quality, public housing for those in most need, housing in quality neighbourhoods with access to suitable amenities. Repurposing vacant or underused commercial premises as homes can have a role to play.”
“The Member will know that that is a reserved issue. However, post offices are part of communities, so I will go back and ask officials what work we are doing with other Departments and take it from there. I will write to the Member with any response.”
“We have discussed it all. At the end of the day, it is everybody's business: mental health is every Minister's business. I want to assure the Member of the steps that we are taking to work together to try to support people with addictions whose families are going through crises. We will see what else we can do, very practically, across each of our Departments. <BR /> <BR />3.30 pm”
“I have met Robin Swann to discuss problem gambling and, indeed, the modernisation of liquor licensing. We discussed procedures for minimum alcohol pricing.”
“We are looking at legislation on gambling and at all the options. What happened elsewhere took 10 or 15 years of work. Despite many attempts here, we need to take it to another level. Certainly, we need to look at online and problem gambling to protect people the best we can. We are looking at the different stages of legislation, starting as soon as possible in this mandate.”
“Yes, I will ensure that the money gets to people who need it. There are also lots of groups, individuals, freelances and independents who do not get money from the Arts Council. We need to make sure, as best we can, that they are included. There is a lot of expectation. I have had no indication that there any difficulties with the proposal. The Minister of Finance has taken a raft of bids, and mine is in the queue. He will not tell me where it is in the queue, but it is in the queue. I imagine that we will hear some announcements very shortly.”
“I have made a bid for that £33 million. I know that it will be discussed this week or, at the very latest, next week. The bid is in, and I have communicated that. I fully understand where people are in the sector. Their livelihoods stopped overnight as a result of COVID. We have had discussions with the Arts Council and with lots of fora and consortia across the board. We want to make sure that we get the bid in, the bid is accepted and we get the money out as soon as possible.”
“To be honest, I think that it is a mortal sin to send money back to the British Treasury. I want to ensure that the young people who, we now know, need the scheme get the best possible scheme. Lots could be said about previous schemes. I want to learn from what did not work. I want to look at the needs of young people now. I want to look at what we have come through during the pandemic and ensure that that experience and the partnership approach to getting young people meaningful employment, albeit for six months, are taken on board. That is where we are.”
“First of all, the scheme will be launched in November, and I want to get it right. I want it to be a bespoke scheme, not just a replication of, for example, Steps to Work or anything else. I do not want young people to be sanctioned. I want to include young people who have autism and are on the spectrum. I also want to ensure that employers include those youngsters and not doing so willy-nilly or piecemeal. I want to make sure that we learn the lessons learned throughout COVID about the response by the community and voluntary sector so that they, too, can be considered as employers. <BR /> <BR />That is the position. I had a meeting on it this morning. We are looking at a bespoke response to needs that we already know. I will also meet service providers, employers and the Children's Commissioner.”
“We need to look at better ways of testing genuine intimidation cases as opposed to those who, I think, across the House, were dismissed for what they were doing.”