Carál Ní Chuilín
North Belfast · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“To continue the theme of undermining public confidence and public effectiveness, I ask you this, Minister: why do you and your DUP colleagues continue to block the 'good jobs' Bill, particularly the measures for parents whose babies require neonatal care and, indeed, other measures that will support workers who are struggling with the cos…”
“At the end of the day, guns were used to kill Catholics — Davy Payne; surface-to-air missiles in South Africa and Paris and then some. I will give the deputy First Minister another opportunity not to deflect but to condemn her party's involvement in Ulster Resistance and with the red berets that they wore.”
“I thank the Minister for that response. I have a close family relative who is in need of a SPiMS unit in an Irish-medium school but cannot access one in North Belfast at all. Apart from access in P4 and P5, they will have to go to an English-speaking school, even though Irish is their first language.”
“You mentioned some of the issues that are important: trade union representation, the banning of zero-hours contracts and employees being able to have their tips and service charges. Anyone who cannot get behind these proposals needs to be clear — concerns for some, and hiding behind the industry for others.”
“First Minister, I know that, recently, you were in Ardoyne for the sod cutting of the new £3·4 million purpose-built youth facility for Ardoyne Youth Enterprise. Further to your response to Brian Kingston, can you give us an update on that project and, indeed, any others?”
“I agree 100%, Linda. That is something that we all agree on. We met many people. The Bill was published and was based on the report of the truth recovery process.”
The complete record
Every one of 2,734 lines we hold for Carál Ní Chuilín, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 3 of 55.
“Begrudgingly. I do not like the language, but I will support it. We will also support the amendment. I say "begrudgingly" because we did not write it, but, accepting the spirit of it, we absolutely will support it. You cannot talk about reform, equality, inclusion and the very essence of this place and then block the very motions and amendments that are trying to look at things differently. <BR /> <BR />What some Members are going to say has become almost predictable. Members need to be genuinely serious about reform. If they are happy to hold on to vetoes and blocking mechanisms, at least we will all know where we stand. The progressive parties need to get on with the business, and, hopefully, some people will come to their senses along the way.”
“The proof has been in the pudding. We are looking at the bill of rights and lots of other issues that would promote rights, equality, inclusion and respect, which are the fundamental cornerstones of the Good Friday Agreement and anything that comes with it. <BR /> <BR />Both Governments need to be involved at some stage. If we get to the stage of having to decide on proposals in AERC — hopefully we will — and yourselves and the UUP —. Robbie is not here, but I was on the Executive when Robin Swann voted against his own proposal because he was a DUP fanboy at the time. I am just putting that on the record. At some stage or other, we are going to have to look at reform. What is happening here at the minute is not working.”
“Alliance, the SDLP and ourselves are trying to get to that point in AERC. The Member may not appreciate this, but we are trying to get to a point at which we all agree on institutional reform. With respect, Jonathan, coming from a party that has blocked equality and progress —.”
“I will give way in a wee minute, Jonathan. <BR /> <BR />That demonstrates a lack of political confidence and political leadership.”
“I, and, I think, the people watching and listening, would have much preferred to hear what you are doing about reform. Instead, you attacked parties because they are different from you.”
“I do not agree with a lot of what they said, but we can certainly appreciate what they said. That is why we are serious about reform. I do not want to do down AERC, because it is a space in which we go through the process of working with academics, listening to consultations and doing the citizens' assemblies before bringing our findings back to our parties. I want to put to bed any suggestion that we are not serious about reform. If people want to approach that from a different political perspective, that is up to them. <BR /> <BR />This debate is really interesting for me, and a lot of observers who watch this place. Paul Frew is very vocal about the impacts of COVID, which is his prerogative, and Jonathan Buckley has talked about what Jonathan talks about.”
“I thank Alliance and the SDLP for tabling the motion and amendment. While I do not like some of the language in them, I completely support the spirit of both. <BR /> <BR />I declare an interest as I was a Minister from June 2020 to December 2020 and was responsible for making some of the COVID regulations. I went in front of the COVID inquiry. I have read each of the module reports. I have read the recent report. It is not good reading for anyone. I apologised privately to families and at the COVID inquiry for my attendance at Bobby Storey's funeral. That is the measure of political leadership. <BR /> <BR />Matthew, my party has not come late to the table on reform. We have taken part in a series of citizens' assemblies right across the island. We have listened to people.”
“Can the deputy First Minister confirm that the budget figure that she read out will not impact on the work that the Equality Commission does, particularly for vulnerable groups, on equality, inclusion and, indeed, respect?”
“achieve good jobs? If you do not have a response now, maybe you can get back to me with an update.”
“Minister, thank you for that response. You talked about "all sectors" across the economy, so how are you working with groups in the Irish language sector, such as GaelChúrsaí, to help Gaeilgeoirí”
“I thank the Minister for his response. The question was about the publication of a strategy for the arts. Can he ensure that that publication happens? I am sure that he will appreciate the economic and health and well-being benefits that the arts sector contributes to the economy and, indeed, to all our lives.”
“I thank the First Minister for her statement. As she knows, and it is referenced in the statement, there is an unacceptable level of violence and abuse towards women and girls across this island and beyond, so the issue is relevant to the NSMC. Can the First Minister provide an assurance that ending violence against women and girls will remain a key priority of the NSMC?”
“That commitment to equality and inclusion throughout Ulster and Ireland has long been a proud tradition and has brought people together across community lines. Clubs are inclusive and community-based and welcome everyone, regardless of their background, faith or belief. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the opportunity to directly challenge some of the narrative from last week, and I appeal to all Members to ensure that there is constructive engagement and cooperation, which should remain central to ensuring public confidence and achieving the shared goal of making boxing a truly inclusive sport for all.”
“On that basis, the IABA strongly and unequivocally refutes any suggestion that discrimination on religious or community grounds has taken place within the IABA or, for that matter, the Ulster Boxing Council. <BR /> <BR />The IABA and the Ulster Boxing Council have engaged, and will continue to engage, fully and constructively with the Equality Commission. The report makes a number of recommendations to strengthen governance, clarify selection processes and further embed good relations practices within boxing structures. In addition, it highlights areas for continuous improvement in governance and communication. In my experience, the IABA is well advanced in implementing those recommendations. The IABA and, indeed, the Ulster Boxing Council emphasise their work on equality, diversity and inclusion in boxing. That is a proud tradition.”
“I want to challenge some of the narrative and, frankly, the mistruths that were spoken here regarding the Irish Athletic Boxing Association (IABA) and the Ulster Boxing Council. The IABA is reaffirming its alignment with the work of the Equality Commission and the importance placed by the association on the publication of the commission's review of the Ulster Boxing Council in light of comments made by the Communities Minister and others last week. The IABA acknowledges that the Minister, in a statement to the Assembly, shared his personal view. That view is not supported by the findings in the Equality Commission report or its recommendations. The Equality Commission's report does not make any findings of discrimination.”
“However, you cannot point the finger at anyone else, particularly in the Assembly and Executive Review Committee, when you have an opportunity in this place to bring forward something, non-binding as it is, and do not do it. So pardon me for being a bit cynical about the lack of consistency when it comes to reform across this place.”
“Thank you. <BR /> <BR />I gave you an opportunity to do that, Michelle, on the basis that I heard what you had to say eloquently at the AERC. That is why I do not understand. I am not agreeing with Phillip Brett — I understand why Matthew tabled the motion — but I do not understand why the amendment will not be accepted. <BR /> <BR />There is part of this that makes me think that this is just stroke politics for the sake of it. This was an opportunity to point out what we all need to do collectively and to put it up to us all, but, no, that has not happened. What has been put up to one another, frankly, is insult and offence. Does it need reformed? Do we need to be reformed? Absolutely. Does the way people speak to each other in this place need to be reformed? Absolutely.”
“It is also about attitudinal reform and about people who, frankly, use debates such as this to be hurtful, offensive, misogynistic, sectarian, racist, homophobic and Islamophobic and to be lacking in equality and respect. The reasons why the institutions came down and were under threat were basically about a lack of respect, a denial of equality and allegations at the heart of government, so let us be honest about that. <BR /> <BR />I still do not understand — I am willing to take an intervention — why anyone cannot accept the amendment.”
“One of the best things was the Líofa programme. It was accepted by the Executive, and then Paul Givan decided to pull the bursary for working-class kids who could not afford to go to the Gaeltacht. People across the board commented on that. We had legislation as a result of RHI. I am long enough here to say that we should have had it as a result of Red Sky, and we go on and we go on. I do not want to be associated with any allegations like that, and I think that most people here are the same. <BR /> <BR />I look forward to the day when it does not matter who brings proposals forward: it is what we do with them and how we make a difference. Does this place need reform? Yes, it does.”
“They are good, because people use them as an opportunity to tell you what they think. They do not miss you and hit the wall, and they are honest and productive. However, the toxicity in this place is not down to Ministers; it is down to people who speak from these Benches, as well as some of the Ministers. What we saw two weeks ago was Members going on a genocide junket. That is the best way that I can describe it. One of them was a Minister, and that has caused people from across the board to ask, "Where is the bar? Is the bar now so low?". It has caused public damage. <BR /> <BR />The Assembly and Executive Review Committee can be as good or as bad as we want it to be, but there needs to be an outcome. I have been here since 2007, and I have seen Ministers agree to do things in Programmes for Government and then walk away.”
“The clue is in the title: Assembly and Executive Reform Committee. That is about reform across the board. Irrespective of that, I still do not understand why the amendment cannot be supported. I genuinely cannot, because it includes what people in the SDLP and the Alliance Party have said at the Committee. Yet, when they step in here, it is something completely different. I am sceptical about why they cannot support the amendment. <BR /> <BR />There is absolutely no doubt that confidence among any members of the public watching or listening to this place, particularly after today, will be at an all-time low. In fact, I was speaking to a group of people from across the community at a good relations event last week about acts of remembrance, talking about the need to move on and talking about citizens' assemblies.”
“Will the First Minister expand on what the Executive Office does to build international relations?”
“Minister, I really appreciate your giving way. Can we make sure that the regeneration is not developer-led and that the Departments, communities and residents are at the heart of it? We have had development companies for a long time, but we have had nothing back, and communities have been shut out again.”
“The only body that has the ability, the authority and, indeed, the credibility to do this is the Department for Infrastructure. It can bring other agencies to a round-table discussion to bring everyone together. It has regeneration powers, with the kudos of acting on behalf of the Assembly and the Executive, even just to lever other Departments. <BR /> <BR />I am glad that Hill Street is to be pedestrianised. It has taken too long. If developers are watching how we do things, they will do nothing in haste. We all need to be honest about that. <BR /> <BR />There is an opportunity for us all to come together and put Castlebrooke and others on notice, along with our community, business and statutory partners. I am up for that. Thank you. Phillip, for securing the Adjournment debate today.”
“<BR /> <BR />We have had meetings with housing associations and other housing providers, as well as developers, to look at using the 80:20 social/private ratio. Everybody has stretched themselves and then some, and it is still sitting there. The engagement all depends on correspondence from Belfast City Council's planning committee, which reminds the developers that they need to engage. Engagement and communication should be a constant. We know that in this place. Even if it is good — we have good days and bad days — most people know exactly where they stand. We thought that we knew where we stood with Castlebrooke. I hate the name "Tribeca"; it is just rubbish. That whole development needs lifted, and we would all welcome the opportunity to do that.”
“Castlebrooke need to be put on notice. I am not getting stuck into South Belfast, but this would not be allowed to happen in BT9 or elsewhere. It should not be allowed to happen anywhere, regardless of postcode. <BR /> <BR />I would like the Department to use its regeneration powers and act as the leadership on the matter. I know that businesses pay a lot of money in rates, but Belfast ratepayers have coughed up more than anyone else. The developers have led us all a merry dance. We have all been clear about what we want and what we do not want. Every time you think you are getting somewhere, they come back. I would go as far as to say that, in my experience, they have been very disingenuous. I can only imagine the frustration felt by potential developers.”
“Hopefully, it will end up as a mixture of both. Following the awful fire in North Street Arcade in 2004, there has been mission creep. Royal Avenue used to be bustling, from Lower Donegall Street through to Donegall Place, but now it is not. As someone who has been there in the evening, on dark nights, I can say that it is a scary place; even the businesses there say that. <BR /> <BR />I completely agree with everything that Phillip said about Castlebrooke. Deirdre and I, along with our team, have been involved. Phillip is right about the cross-party team in Belfast City Council that has led the charge on that. Our party is adamant about the Assembly Rooms. The cross-party support to try to get the whole thing done is sustaining us all, to be frank.”
“I thank Phillip for bringing forward the Adjournment topic today. I am from the area. I still occasionally call over and go for a walk with my friends and their dogs around there. I do not stray into the Deer's Head, but I have seen some of you at the Duke of York when we have walked up there with the dogs. Those are great establishments, by the way. Phillip is 100% right that all that you are met with around there is dereliction and scaffolding. No attention or care is paid, and that sends out a message to residents, and, potentially, to developers. One of the most iconic parts of the city, including its architecture, is being lost. <BR /> <BR />I remember — this is not a dig at the SDLP, Matthew — the announcement in 2003 about Royal Exchange. It was really ambitious. Phillip is right: it was retail, and then it became office space.”
“Minister, I thank you for that overview. You outlined the fact that you will need legislation. Bearing that in mind, when do you anticipate that the scheme will become operational?”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an fhreagra sin.”
“I thank the junior Minister for her response. I am sure that she will appreciate that many victims and survivors have expressed deep concerns about the posthumous date for redress, and, indeed, there are other concerns about the Bill. Will the junior Minister commit to listening to those concerns, and will she continue to engage with the victims and survivors of the mother-and-baby institutions, Magdalene laundries and workhouses?”
“Those families, and their extended families, are not sleeping. They are terrified. Their mental health is under massive pressure. I once again call out those sectarian and racist attacks without equivocation. No ifs, ands or buts: they need to stop. <BR /> <BR />My final appeal is for individuals who go to the media without talking to families or having concern for the wider community please to stop. That, too, is causing stress.”
“Members will be aware of a number of sectarian and racist attacks in the lower Oldpark area of north Belfast before the recess in May of last year. As recently as last week, residents were subjected to those horrifying attacks again. The terrified victims in the middle of all that need to hear our joint condemnation. <BR /> <BR />I thank Nuala McAllister, one of the MLAs for North Belfast, and Jordan Doran, a DUP councillor, for attending a multi-agency meeting last week that my colleague John Finucane called. That was an opportunity for everyone there to call out sectarianism and racism. Today, I wish that we all stand together and call for that collective condemnation. In 2025, we are dealing with families who are barricading themselves behind their front and back doors in the evening, and that is completely unacceptable.”
“Will the First Minister detail her thinking that informed the launch of the Executive's artificial intelligence office, please?”
“I thank the First Minister for her statement. I join Paula Bradshaw and many others in extending sympathy to the family of Sarah Montgomery. The events at the weekend were tragic. The First Minister mentioned that the NSMC is one forum that will discuss ending violence against women and girls: will she confirm that that forum is of strategic importance? Will she ensure that, in all fora in which they meet, the ending of violence against women and girls is discussed and that actions arise from that?”
“I also want to assure the adult adoptees that we will ensure that they are not forgotten in this either. That goes from the very birth certificates that had "Adopted" stamped right across them. That needs to be challenged and changed. One thing about this place is that, when it comes to this legislation, there is a cigarette paper between each and every one of us, regardless of political party or complexion. We see you all, we hear you, and we will fight to ensure that you are supported and recognised and, indeed, that you get some sense of justice.”
“It is really important that that acknowledgement comes as well, because, frankly, all this was done in secrecy in the context of what women and girls faced. <BR /> <BR />What we are all determined to do through this legislation — we will do it, starting with our Committee Stage tomorrow — is try to honour those people as best we can by fighting to ensure that we get some sense of justice. None of us will even try to say, "We will get you full justice", because we cannot do that, but we will do our best. We guarantee that we will do our best. We will support you right through. Above all else, we need to make sure that nothing like this ever, ever happens again. <BR /> <BR />I thank the families and individuals who came to the Committee and the many people who met me individually — you know who you are.”
“The Department and the Minister of Justice introduced legislation around coercion and control. These women are one of the best examples of a lived history of violence against women and girls and coercion and control. The worst injustice that we can do to them and their families is not to recognise that. It is essential that we find out what happened, as laid out in the Bill, why it happened and who was responsible. We need to know, and others have raised that before. It includes the high mortality rates of wee babies who were either born dead or died shortly after birth. Where were they? Who took them? Where are they buried? Are their graves marked? We need to find answers to all those questions. I firmly believe that although those babies have been buried, none of us will allow their history to be buried.”
“<BR /> <BR />I understand that some of the institutions have been listed simply because of the research that Brian outlined by Queen's University and Ulster University. I know that, even in my constituency of North Belfast, where two of the institutions were listed, there were others. There were private hospitals and private homes. That was where all the middle-class girls were sent. The middle-class girls were sent to the private hospitals. I am not saying that they were not traumatised. They absolutely were. Were they under coercive control? Yes, they were. Were their children adopted against their will? Yes, they were. We need to look into that, and I hope that the inquiry will shine a light on those practices as well. <BR /> <BR />We, and our Executive, are now in possession of the ending violence against women and girls strategy.”
“I believe that the mother-and-baby institutions, the Magdalene laundries, the workhouses and, indeed, the state-run institutions need to step forward. As Paula mentioned, they refused to come to the Committee. They sent letters. In fact, I specifically remember one piece of correspondence in which they said that running those schemes cost them money. No compassion, no love — an absolutely disgraceful response. I know that we all on the Committee — indeed, those who are not on the Committee — will be steadfast in ensuring that, with whatever means we have, not only will they be held to account, but they will pay. They must pay. It will never replace anyone or address the hurt and trauma, but, for me, voluntarily contributing what they think to be appropriate should not be allowed.”
“Another aspect of the Bill that has been raised with us — it was raised in previous legislation, particularly the Adoption and Children Act — is access to public records. When I say "public records", that is what they are. It is someone's life; it is their history; it is their story. They need to have that access, and we need to ensure that they get it and that no stone is left unturned to ensure that people get whatever information they have not got until now. That is really important. We all agreed on that in Committee. <BR /> <BR />Sinéad and Paula pointed out that our Executive have stepped up and stepped forward in introducing this legislation to establish a public inquiry. They have also tried, in some way, to look at redress schemes. Everyone spoke about posthumous claims, and I concur with that.”
“The concerns that I have raised relate to clauses 14, 15, 16 and 17. They are also there in clause 40 specifically. We raised those with the officials who attended the Committee, and I believe that they are going to look at them with careful consideration.”
“That is grossly unfair, and it flies against everything that we want to do. It is important that if victims and survivors and their families feel that the flexibility of giving evidence in private is the only way that they can do that, then so be it. However, no institution that was responsible for the cruelty, hurt and pain should be allowed the luxury of giving evidence in private. None of us should allow that to happen. <BR />We understand article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR), on the right to respect for your private and family life. We get that, but let no institution use article 8 to duck out of facing people. They may not have been personally responsible, but the institutions, which they work for and are part of, were responsible.”
“Acknowledgement must also be given to TEO officials, the truth recovery panel and the consultative forums for all the work that has been done to try to support people up until now. It is important for us all to say, "We see you, we hear you, and we want to ensure that recognition is realised through this legislation, which will end in a public inquiry that is just and fair". <BR /> <BR />Aspects of the Bill have already been flagged up, and I will not repeat what other Members have said. I just want to say that. It is not that I do not think that they are important; there is no point in repeating them. However, other things that really concern me are aspects of the Bill that look at the possibility of institutions and others giving evidence to any public enquiry with anonymity.”
“For me, that was a complete indictment on us. It is imperative that the stories and the lived experiences of those women and girls are front and centre. <BR /> <BR />As Junior Minister Pam Cameron said during her introduction, the legislation is an opportunity for a public inquiry to start. That is really important. I do not think that any of us would even try to say that it could completely replace or eradicate the trauma experienced then and the trauma that is lived through every day of their life, but it is an important start, and there is a lot of work to be done. <BR /> <BR />A lot of Members have concerns already, and some of those have been mentioned. It is appropriate for us all to acknowledge the bravery of those women and girls and their families in coming forward.”
“The context that allowed that to happen was patriarchy, gender bias and misogyny against women and girls, where women and girls were viewed as "less than" and as "others", and what they experienced, as has been proven in other jurisdictions, was forced adoptions, coercion and control, cruelty and barbaric practices in institutions that showed a complete lack of compassion for women and girls that were in their care. As Sinéad and others have said, no care was shown whatsoever. There was no sensitivity and no regard for the women and girls and their experiences. <BR /> <BR />Many of the girls who entered those institutions were children. By today's definition, they were children, and no one questioned why 14-year-old girls, 13-year-old girls and 12-year-old girls went into those institutions pregnant. No one questioned that.”
“This legislation, as others have said, will provide the basis for a full public inquiry, and that is really important. The victims and survivors and their families have been campaigning for that for decades. <BR /> <BR />As has already been mentioned, no one should be in any doubt that, because of the way that our society was, it not only allowed those scandals and, in my opinion, crimes to happen, it actually facilitated them. Women and girls who became pregnant were treated disgracefully , and their families were treated disgracefully. Other Members have talked about the pathway from which the women and girls entered those institutions — some were sexually abused and raped, all were traumatised and all were alone.”
“This legislation is very important, and, as other Members have said, this is a momentous day. No doubt, it is a day that many individuals and their families have been waiting for, for their whole life. In my time here — I have been here since 2007 — this is one of the most momentous pieces of legislation that I have seen. <BR /> <BR />Every Member who has spoken in the debate has been able to give only a glimpse of some of the issues that have disturbed and infuriated us, made us cry and made us angry; in particular, the way in which injustices and shame were inflicted on many women and girls and their families. For me, today is a start: this will shine some light on what happened to women and girls in so-called mother-and-baby institutions, Magdalene laundries and workhouses.”
“Ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a ghabháil leis na hAirí as an Bhille seo. Lá róthábhachtach atá ann.”
“In Joanne Bunting's question, First Minister, she mentioned the ongoing strategies, and you responded to that. One of the long-term commitments made by the Executive goes back to 2010 and is about the building of Casement Park. Can you advise whether the funding for that and, indeed, other projects was raised at your meeting with the British Prime Minister, Keir Starmer?”