Carál Ní Chuilín
North Belfast · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“To continue the theme of undermining public confidence and public effectiveness, I ask you this, Minister: why do you and your DUP colleagues continue to block the 'good jobs' Bill, particularly the measures for parents whose babies require neonatal care and, indeed, other measures that will support workers who are struggling with the cos…”
“At the end of the day, guns were used to kill Catholics — Davy Payne; surface-to-air missiles in South Africa and Paris and then some. I will give the deputy First Minister another opportunity not to deflect but to condemn her party's involvement in Ulster Resistance and with the red berets that they wore.”
“I thank the Minister for that response. I have a close family relative who is in need of a SPiMS unit in an Irish-medium school but cannot access one in North Belfast at all. Apart from access in P4 and P5, they will have to go to an English-speaking school, even though Irish is their first language.”
“You mentioned some of the issues that are important: trade union representation, the banning of zero-hours contracts and employees being able to have their tips and service charges. Anyone who cannot get behind these proposals needs to be clear — concerns for some, and hiding behind the industry for others.”
“First Minister, I know that, recently, you were in Ardoyne for the sod cutting of the new £3·4 million purpose-built youth facility for Ardoyne Youth Enterprise. Further to your response to Brian Kingston, can you give us an update on that project and, indeed, any others?”
“I agree 100%, Linda. That is something that we all agree on. We met many people. The Bill was published and was based on the report of the truth recovery process.”
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“Minister, thank you for your answers thus far. I want to expand on the question that Clare Bailey asked. I do not want to be disparaging about some of the groups that the Minister said that officials have been in contact with, but, more often than not, officials go to the big groups in the voluntary sector and forget about the smaller groups in the community sector that do a lot of the work on the ground. Can he give an assurance that, as the programme rolls out, those community groups, particularly women's groups, will not become invisible?”
“I thank the Minister for her comprehensive response. I will write to her on the details of the transition process. She has partly answered my question on the details of what is available for children and young people who go through the criminal justice system. However, we need to make sure that children who are not academically inclined have opportunities for vocational training and education as well.”
“I believe that, as it goes through scrutiny, as we anticipate, in this mandate and mandates ahead, that will be brought to the attention of the Department for Communities. We support the LCM.”
“<BR /> <BR />As the Minister said in his opening remarks, the Bill is passing through Westminster, and if any changes are made, I would anticipate that they will be brought to us. I would also expect — it is not in the Bill in any great detail, although the inference is there — that when cultural property is seized, it is returned. There have been instances where that has happened in the past. Indeed, it has also been a very important part of many conflict resolution processes to have property brought forward and granted. <BR /> <BR />The designation is really important, as is the symbol. It gives it equal status, as was mentioned previously, with the Red Cross and the Red Crescent.”
“I, too, support this LCM. I declare an interest as one of the four or maybe five Ministers who tried to bring this forward. Many accusations are levelled at this place about things moving slowly, but we have waited since 1954, so this one was not on our watch, in fairness. There were attempts from 2007 through to 2008 to have the convention ratified. That is really important. <BR /> <BR />To be fair, the Chair summed up exactly what was discussed in Committee and laid out very clearly our understanding and acknowledgement of the need for this LCM to be brought forward. As has been mentioned, the definition of cultural property in article 1 is very wide, but I am delighted that the clarification that we sought has been granted and that all devolved Administrations and institutions will be responsible for its designation.”
“I thank the Minister for her response. There are issues, in that people with mental health problems end up in prison when what they need is treatment and support. I know that that is an issue for the criminal justice system at the other end, but, while people are in custody, I am not convinced that there is enough training and awareness given to prison staff on mental health needs. I encourage the Minister, the Minister of Health and anyone else to ensure that that is the case. In many instances, people end up on a conveyor belt. They get a custodial sentence and end up in prison, but what they really need is treatment. I am not convinced that the awareness is there even to recognise that they need treatment in the first place.”
“I am glad that the resolution has received the full support of the House.”
“We confront what happened on Saturday. Should it be against Father Gary Donegan, or Brian who was with him or anybody else, even some of the people with GARC, who have the right to protest, will back off when they see that behaviour.”
“For me, the message is that we all need to support resolution where that is possible. In order to provide that sort of leadership, even this afternoon, we must use softer words. Nelson spoke about hatred but his language could have been a bit softer when he joined in with the rest of us. I am delighted that he is supporting the agreement but he should support it without conditions and without making points. It is a community that we all represent and we all have interests in but we all need to show leadership and reach out to one another. <BR /> <BR />We have political and ideological difficulties, but that is what this place is for. We need to make sure that our communities, our streets and our children and grandchildren — ours, not mine or yours — are left a legacy that is far better than the one we had. How do we do that?”
“Residents in Twaddell Avenue and in Mountainview, Ardoyne and the Dales, as well as businesses, have had their quality of life greatly impacted by nightly and weekly parades. People going about their business and getting on with their lives were greatly impacted.”
“I am encouraged to hear today that everyone has had an opportunity to give support to the agreement. Indeed, many did last week, and that was greatly appreciated, particularly by CARA and some other residents. It is important that, when we use this opportunity to speak in the Assembly, we speak with one voice, particularly on such an important issue. I think that, for every political representative, or most of them, despite their best efforts to get resources, facilities and services to their constituents in North Belfast over the last few years, this has been an issue that has been crying out for resolution. It is also an issue that has been crying out for leadership. I commend CARA and, indeed, the loyal orders for using that opportunity and leadership to come to a resolution that we all now know about in its public form.”
“Yes. Beidh mé ag críochnú anois. I am delighted to take part in this and delighted that we have got it this far, but there is still much more work that we need to do.”
“I shared some concerns around the outworkings of some of those programmes, particularly in relation to Ulster Scots, but that is by the by. That is something that we need to look at. <BR /> <BR />It is really important that we look at governance and lessons learned from the failure around some of the governance issues with the BBC in the past. One of the biggest issues is the governance around some of the historical sexual abuse allegations. I think that the BBC was quite disgraceful in the way that it governed. It looked after the celebrity rather than the victims. If anything, this presents us with an opportunity to ensure that that never happens again. I am quite looking forward to hearing what some of the big presenters earn. I think that we could take a guess on that. <BR /> <BR />This is a take-note debate —”
“We have made excellent programmes that can be shown anywhere. I believe that it is a two-way process, and not enough has been done, despite the fact that the creative industries sector here, NI Screen and the BBC here have lobbied and argued for that. <BR /> <BR />The context for all that argument was particularly around the charter renewal and the funding agreement. I do not think that it is challenging the independence of the BBC to ask where the money is being spent and, more importantly, how it is being spent. I would definitely like to see more of a breakdown of local commissioning here and, particularly, more commissioning in addition to the broadcast funds around the Irish language and Ulster Scots.”
“<BR /> <BR />I also believe that, without the broadcasting funds, the BBC has not contributed enough to Ulster Scots and the Irish language. While the broadcast funds are administered through the BBC and even through the work of NI Screen, it still, for me, raises concerns. I am not convinced that the argument around parity of those broadcast funds stands up, to be frank. <BR /> <BR />I have shared some of the concerns, and that will be reflected somewhat in the charter, about making sure that we are represented in a way that is true, reflective and faithful to the people here, and the Minister touched on that in his opening remarks. That is really important, and I believe that the BBC has lacked in that in the past. One of the best ways that we can change that is to spend more money here commissioning programmes.”
“I had a concern about any body regulating itself, so Ofcom has now become the regulating body, and even the concerns about the arrangements around the advisory committee have been listened to as well. In one year, the BBC had accrued around £4 billion. A lot of us would like to know how that money was spent. <BR /> <BR />I listened to Jonathan Bell talk about the BBC needing to have a production house here. I tend to disagree with him. I think that one of the successful arguments that we have made is that we have excellent producers and commissioners and the ability to commission programmes here, and, in order for our independent creative industries to thrive, we need to try to support that. The BBC has not exploited the skills and expertise that we have here as much as it should have, in my opinion.”
“I declare an interest at the start: I was one of the Ministers — the other one is over there — who probably started the process of the review of the BBC charter and funding agreement. I am delighted to see that some of the suggestions that were brought forward have been taken on board, but I still think that, notwithstanding that our Committee will meet on Thursday, there are some concerns about some of the issues. The whole issue about the independence of the BBC is, I think, just a given. However, as a result of the Silk and Smith commissions, the funding arrangements, particularly for Scotland, and the memorandum of understanding that was brought forward then, we here and Wales felt there was an inequality. So that seems to have changed.”
“I thank the Minister for his statement. I know from my experience that, at times, issues come up, such as the last question, that are not covered in the statement. Perhaps, at the next NSMC sectoral meeting for languages, the Minister could get an update from Foras na Gaeilge on its arrangements for the groups that get smaller bits of funding under scéim phobail Gaeilge (SPG). There is growing concern that Foras, as a parent body, is not giving the support and finances needed for those groups to grow right across the country.”
“Further to the response to William Humphrey's follow-on question, will the Minister outline the importance of community participation in the Urban Villages and T:BUC programmes?”
“<BR /> <BR />I am delighted that we have received cross-party support for the motion. I commend Fra for bringing it forward, and I look forward to the consultation on the revised housing selection scheme.”
“You cannot ask somebody to intimidate you in a pub on a Sunday, walk round the corner, get your so-called threat on a Monday and have your points allocated the Monday after that. That is ridiculous, but that is what happens. When that happens, the humiliation of the families in the hostels continues. I defy anyone to stand over that system. It is not working. There was a need for a third-party scenario to exist years ago, but that has gone. If people get their cars broken into, they can go to the PSNI. If the PSNI, along with a charity or an independent, can verify it, so be it, but the days of people claiming intimidation through schemes, pals or whatever need to end. Our constituents are living in misery for years on end. I do not know anybody who could stand over that record.”
“The acute housing problem, if not addressed, either through affordable housing or the availability of land on which to build, will lead to the slow privatisation of housing, because the private rented sector, although some of it is great — I am not a landlord — is becoming the alternative to social housing provision. There is a need for the private rented sector, but not as the alternative. The alternative is not working. That is not working, either. There are some very good landlords out there as well. <BR /> <BR />The challenge for us is to look at the replacement of the scheme. I am delighted that that replacement is going to come forward for public consultation. We have said that, when people are claiming to be intimidated or are alleging intimidation, it needs to be verified.”
“We all gave and heard examples that all sound so familiar to us. <BR /> <BR />Questions were asked about the availability of land on which to build houses. We need to build houses, and we need to build them where there is need. We also need to try to develop and support communities. I, along with many other people, have written to different Departments to try to find out about land availability. It is up to each of us to try to get that sorted out. I, like Fra and many others, have seen successive Ministers, with the best of intentions, make promises that, for different reasons, cannot be kept. We are in a different place, however.”
“Let us call it what it is. For anyone to claim that we are doing away with intimidation points, that is misleading and unfair. There are people who are intimidated. There are asylum seekers who are intimidated and refugees who are intimidated. There are women and men who are intimidated through domestic violence. There are lots of genuine reasons for people being intimidated, but we have all said that the system is being abused and that people are taking the hand. What happens when the system is abused is that the genuine people who endure the humiliation of living on sofas and in hostels, with their wee kids, huddled up and waiting for years, see somebody jumping the queue, and I do not think that anybody could stand over that. I have not heard anyone say anything different.”
“I am delighted to hear that. Everyone who is listening to the debate will hear that, and even people who want to lift Hansard will see that, but, William, it is not 50:50. I am going to disagree with you there, but, sure, we have disagreed from the day and hour that we looked at each other, so it is nothing new. <BR /> <BR />Apart from anything else, I am heartened by the fact that we are looking at an alternative, which will go out to consultation. I have not seen it yet, but I heard the Minister outline at least five or six outcomes that he wants to see in it. That is a good thing, but we are going to add to those. <BR /> <BR />We need to talk about intimidation, and everybody talked about it. Jenny outlined some of what is happening in her constituency. In ours, it is referred to as the "buy the bullet" scheme.”
“What I will say, however, is that, if we are building houses and creating communities, that has to be done on the basis of need.”
“Better still, if we are coming at it from a good position, it is our job to make the consultation better in order to make it better for the people whom we represent. What I have absolutely no tolerance for is people with assumptions and making points and then not backing them up with real evidence. I dare say that people will grow into doing that. <BR /> <BR />Not to be sectarian, but it is a fact that in my and Nichola Mallon's constituency, and William's, at times, you can have from 70% to 81·3% of people on the housing waiting list who are deemed to be nationalist. That is a challenge. What I will not accept, and what I do not think that any Member would accept, is that that is allowed to prevail because a lot of Catholics live in North Belfast. I am not saying that.”
“What I do have an issue with is style over substance. I do not like popularism. I think that it is really cowardly, but pointing fingers on the basis of people having different political points of view is a wee bit silly as well. We need to approach this from an evidence base. If people expected us to bring an alternative without consultation, that would have been a problem, and I think that Gerry is big enough to accept that. I know that he had to make a point for the sake of making a point, but it is not in Fra McCann's gift to throw out an alternative for housing without any public consultation. He is not a Minister — yet. That is a Minister's job and that of a Department. It is then our job to tear the consultation apart.”
“I like red; it is one of my favourite colours. I will take exception to one thing. This place is for politics; let us not girn about that.”
“Nor are they happy with the advice that they are giving people within the current system. They are looking to us to make changes. It is not their fault that we all walk into a crowded room and overhear one another's conversations. It is our fault that that is happening. We need to sort that out. <BR /> <BR />I also want to pick up on a few points. To be clear, when we are talking about need, we are talking about need. We are not talking about creed. Everybody said that. We are talking about objective need. The way in which objective need is measured will stand the test of time, particularly if there is a review of the situation. That too will be as part of a public consultation.”
“<BR /> <BR />I will not go through systematically, as happens when winding on debates, what Members have said. Everybody remained for the debate and has heard all that. Certainly, there were some common themes. People are very passionate and concerned that the public housing element of the Housing Executive stays as it is. That is crucial. What we are saying is that the system, and the Minister confirmed that it has not been reviewed since 2000, is broken. It is not working. <BR /> <BR />I would like to clarify that some office staff have complained to us, as political representatives, that the conditions that they are working in when hearing confidential cases are not fit for purpose. Some of the staff hear very harrowing cases, and they are not happy with what they are hearing.”
“It is rare for us at the start of an Assembly session, despite some comments, to achieve cross-party support for a motion, a motion that, by and large, everybody has a real sense of commitment to. Regardless of where you sit in this House, Fra McCann is recognised as — I was going to say "passionate" — passionate about housing. I will just get that across. Fra McCann has led the way in housing based on need for many decades. Back in his days on Belfast City Council and the Housing Executive, members of other political parties would contact Fra for advice, which he gave freely and with an open heart. That is the spirit in which we come to the motion. I also thank the research team; I believe that the research pack is very good. It will help some of the charities and other groups working on housing issues.”
“The motion and the amendment not only will have a good outcome but will send a clear message out that the new Minister, the new Department and the MLAs in the new mandate collectively want to make sure that we have the backs of those in the private rented sector.”
“It is massive, and the way in which the private rented sector has gone in the past is that it is costing people to live there because they have no choice. We need to create opportunities so that people have choices that they can afford and that will not push them further and deeper into poverty and, indeed, further and deeper into the interest of loan sharks. I have seen that in my constituency. You grow up hearing stories of the tick men coming to the door, but that has become accepted as inevitable. I do not think that any of us will accept that that is inevitable, and I do not think that any of us ever should.”
“As the Minister said, every MLA who spoke, regardless of their experience in the Chamber and that, is a seasoned activist, campaigner or lobbyist or has, as a neighbour, lived beside people in the private rented sector. They will know what it is like — to talk about Clare's experience — to see a family moved out at 10.00 pm on a Friday because a landlord has put them out. They will know what it is like when people have been given less than 28 days' notice to quit. They will know what it is like when the landlord decides, "You are not getting your full deposit" and makes up some erroneous reason for it. People are pushed into massive poverty traps. <BR /> <BR />Michelle Gildernew and others mentioned the impact of poor housing on health. That cannot be overestimated.”
“<BR /> <BR />We also need to look at the housing waiting list. I understand that a lot of people are very loyal to the Housing Executive, particularly those who remember why it was put in place in the first instance, but, as a public housing authority, it is a public landlord as well. This is really around mandatory registration with private landlords: if even half the standards were set in the private sector that are set in the social sector, we would be going some way, but that is still not good enough. <BR /> <BR />Looking at the review, the Minister's officials, I am sure, will have quickly taken down a list of things that were mentioned. We need to give the Department the space to address some of those.”
“This is probably where some of us will disagree, although not enough to divide the House. The minimum standards, for me, are making sure that there is proper health and safety; that accommodation is properly furnished; that the landlord does not have the ability to hike up the rent whenever he or she feels like it; and that they fulfil their statutory obligations in terms of rent books, conditions and all the rest. <BR /> <BR />The landlord registration scheme was mentioned, and it demonstrates that, when statutory instruments are used to enhance the rights and entitlements of people, they work. The difficulty that we have at times is that the pressure is taken off, and, when the pressure is taken off, poor and vulnerable people usually feel the brunt of that. None of us wants that.”
“As a city girl, I accept that there are acute needs in rural constituencies, and the housing stock needs to be looked at. With industries such as manufacturing growing in Dungannon and other areas, the demand for private lets has increased. When demand increases, there are landlords — I know that, in my constituency, unscrupulous landlords are in the minority — who will overcrowd houses, ignore health and safety, as well as some of the issues that Jonathan Bell raised, do everything that other people would find abhorrent and bring in as many people as possible to get as much rent as possible. Therefore, we need to ensure that, first, we try to fulfil, as best we can, our duty of care, which every MLA mentioned, and, secondly, that letting agents and landlords reach the best standards possible.”
“<BR /> <BR />One thing I was very heartened about was what Jonathan Bell, Roy Beggs, Nichola Mallon and others said, which was interesting. I would like to say that I have no interest to declare. I do not own a house, and I am not a landlord, but, like many other people, I know what it is like to sleep on someone's sofa, what it is like to be in a hostel and what it is like to move from pillar to post. None of us wants that happening on our watch. I have to say that the private rented sector has begun to respond to some of the demands, and I believe that those responses came about only because of the pressure from government. Pressure has to come, and it has to be consistent and applied consistently. <BR /> <BR />Michelle Gildernew is a rural MLA. She tells us that in every Committee meeting, and she told us again today.”
“The same issues kept coming up in different contributions. The first was about making sure that this is not over-bureaucratic. The second was about making sure that the review provides a good outcome rather than be seen as another process with no outcome. No one wants that, particularly people on housing waiting lists and tenants living in private rented houses that are, frankly, not fit for human habitation. The third issue was the whole matter of letting agents and the need to reinforce legislation. <BR /> <BR />By calling for a review, we are giving the Department an opportunity not only to listen to what has been said in this debate but to come back to the Committee in particular with some suggestions about how it is going to be done.”
“I have spoken to many landlords in my North Belfast constituency, and I know that South Belfast — Christopher Stalford and Paula Bradshaw know this, too — and North Belfast are probably the two most high-demand areas in the city for private rented sector housing. I certainly know that South Belfast has the highest number of HMOs. <BR /> <BR />From our point of view, vast sums of public money are going into the private sector, and we need to make sure that public money is being protected. More importantly, what came out of this debate is the fact that some of the conditions that people endure in the private rented sector are completely unacceptable. I think that everyone across the House said that. <BR /> <BR />Stewart Dickson touched on the fact that we do not want to be over-bureaucratic.”
“Alex touched on the point about conflicting figures throughout the period, and although, in his contribution, the Minister — this debate is my first opportunity in the Chamber to thank and welcome him — clarified some of those figures, I suspect that they will change, given the fact that the private rented sector is in such demand because of the appalling nature of our housing waiting lists, which are set to get worse. I therefore think that we need to looks at ways in which to tackle the issue. <BR /> <BR />Alex Maskey pointed out that vast sums of public money go into the private rented sector. Our opinion is that the more regulation and reviews that there are, the better.”
“At that time — this was certainly my opinion, although Alex possibly did not articulate it — when I used to hear the Department talk about light-touch approaches to mandatory registration, I thought that that meant looking after landlords rather than protecting the needs of citizens and those people sleeping on settees, which, in my constituency, affected three generations. I was completely baffled by that, and even more so when I found out that the legislation was not brought forward until seven years later. I understand why it takes a long time for legislation to come in, but it should not take seven years. That is why we have called for a review.”
“First, I am absolutely delighted that, given that it is so early in the mandate, we have business in the Assembly for which there seems to be cross-party support, albeit that there are some differences coming from different positions. Some Members placed more emphasis on issues that they deal with in their constituency than others. The Alliance Party amendment strengthens the motion. We are keen to look at that, because, at the end of the day, this is about providing protection and making sure that the duty of care is honoured and respected. <BR /> <BR />Alex Maskey laid out very clearly at the start that, in 2007 — I remember this, because I sat on the Social Development Committee at the time — we were quite concerned about the fact that there were not any mandatory regulations, particularly for landlords.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I want to apologise for walking past Patsy McGlone and ask Patsy to accept my apology for walking in front of him. I do not think that there is any need to conduct a whole investigation into a protocol, if you would not mind just accepting my apologies. Thank you very much.”
“The Irish language will get less than £150,000 a year. When the proposals for premises are brought forward, which they have been, they will be considered. So, it is much less than the Ulster-Scots Institute has got thus far. That has answered your question. The difficulty with the Member is that, like previous answers, he got an answer to his question, but he just does not like the answer that he got.”
“OK; let me repeat it. The Ulster-Scots institute will receive over £1 million in revenue, and, when it comes forward with its robust proposal for premises and on the basis of an economic appraisal and business case, that will be considered. It did not do it in the past —”
“Further to that point of order, a LeasCheann Comhairle, I mentioned it, but maybe because the Member was late or maybe was not listening —”
“It is down to Members right across the Chamber, not just within the DUP, to ensure that they give proper leadership and do not nitpick or cherry-pick around the Ulster-Scots Institute and Gaelacadamh to make sure that they meet the needs of the community and the people whom we all serve, rather than the needs of some political parties.”
“<BR /> <BR />I also met the Member's colleague on Gaelchúrsa, and I was absolutely shocked at the lack of support that was given to that community, particularly for children and young people. However, I do not know and do not remember the premises that the Member is talking about, but I accept what he is saying and that that is his perception. <BR /> <BR />I saw other Members nodding their heads. A decision was made to purchase or to rent or lease a building that was not used. I want to ensure that that does not happen here. That is why we agreed to the Corn Exchange.”