Carál Ní Chuilín
North Belfast · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“To continue the theme of undermining public confidence and public effectiveness, I ask you this, Minister: why do you and your DUP colleagues continue to block the 'good jobs' Bill, particularly the measures for parents whose babies require neonatal care and, indeed, other measures that will support workers who are struggling with the cos…”
“At the end of the day, guns were used to kill Catholics — Davy Payne; surface-to-air missiles in South Africa and Paris and then some. I will give the deputy First Minister another opportunity not to deflect but to condemn her party's involvement in Ulster Resistance and with the red berets that they wore.”
“I thank the Minister for that response. I have a close family relative who is in need of a SPiMS unit in an Irish-medium school but cannot access one in North Belfast at all. Apart from access in P4 and P5, they will have to go to an English-speaking school, even though Irish is their first language.”
“You mentioned some of the issues that are important: trade union representation, the banning of zero-hours contracts and employees being able to have their tips and service charges. Anyone who cannot get behind these proposals needs to be clear — concerns for some, and hiding behind the industry for others.”
“First Minister, I know that, recently, you were in Ardoyne for the sod cutting of the new £3·4 million purpose-built youth facility for Ardoyne Youth Enterprise. Further to your response to Brian Kingston, can you give us an update on that project and, indeed, any others?”
“I agree 100%, Linda. That is something that we all agree on. We met many people. The Bill was published and was based on the report of the truth recovery process.”
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“Those are issues that we, as an Assembly and an Executive, all have a responsibility to address. <BR /> <BR />I am also grateful that the anomaly with the Mobility scheme was rectified on 2 March. It was rectified as quickly as it was spotted, so I put my appreciation of that on record. The other three amendments that came into effect on 8 March are also welcome. <BR /> <BR />There are issues on which we still need clarity, Minister. For example, you said that 70% of infections were a result of the Kent variant. We need to know what strengths and additional measures we are bringing in, including the traveller locator forms in particular. We all want to support our health and social care system, particularly those who work at the intensivist end.”
“I thank the Minister for laying the No 5 amendment to the No 2 rules. There is a feeling of déjà vu at times; nonetheless we are here to support the Minister as best we can. I also want to put on record my appreciation to all the health and social care workers, all the community and voluntary sector workers, and all frontline staff for their work over the past year. I extend that appreciation to families, many of whom will never forget the experience that they have endured this year. <BR /> <BR />I do not want to go back to what normal was before COVID. There are certain categories in our communities, our families, our society and our constituencies that were suffering long before COVID, but the impact of COVID exacerbated their experience of loneliness, poor mental health, poverty and ill health.”
“I thank the joint First Minister for her responses so far, and I thank Dolores for tabling a very important question. Will the joint First Minister detail the work that is being carried out to address decades of underinvestment in our housing programme?”
“<BR /> <BR />I join with others in saying that it is regrettable and heartbreaking that, just a week on, we are again talking about the death of a woman. However, we will all have an opportunity tomorrow to join in support of the motion on ending violence against women and girls and, indeed, violence against men. The difficulty with that is that, at its root, the majority of this violence is perpetrated by men; the statistic that I heard is 96%. We have a big job of work to do. No one wants to hear about where the responsibility lies. The issue needs to be funded and the Executive need to own it, lift it and resource it. Let us focus on reflecting on what happened at the weekend, and let us offer our support to the community and the families.”
“Anyone watching the debate will want to know that we will do our best to make sure that Karen and Stacey are the last women about whom we speak in the Assembly who died as the result of violence at the hands of a man. For me, any other suggestion or quip demeans what happened to these families and, indeed, to the whole community. I offer my condolences not only as an elected rep for the area but as a woman. As a mother and a grandmother, I can only imagine what the families are going through. <BR /> <BR />I am also concerned at the plea raised by the father about his nine-year-old daughter. That is really concerning and needs to be thoroughly investigated. When anybody approaches me with concerns of that nature, as an elected rep, I encourage them to go to the PSNI and social services. We need to find out what happened.”
“Thank you, Paula, for raising this Matter of the Day. Before I watched your interview and the interview with Noreen, I heard the chilling news on the radio of a double murder-suicide. I understand that it was the early days of the investigation and that perhaps the facts were not known, but I wished and hoped that those words had been used for the last time. <BR /> <BR />Karen and Stacey lost their lives as a result of murder in their own homes. We can only imagine the terror and the thoughts that went through their heads. As many others have said, two generations of a family are now bereaved. In the middle of this is a bereaved nine-year-old child who will be trying to understand. <BR /> <BR />I appeal to everyone to keep their attention on what happened at the weekend in Newtownabbey and Whiteabbey.”
“Does the Minister accept that safe, compassionate and accessible abortion services, in line with legislation, must be brought forward by his Department immediately?”
“He may not be able to provide those answers now, but I implore him, particularly given yesterday's revelations in 'The Irish News' to give reassurance to those people as quickly as possible. I know that he was probably as uncomfortable as I and many others were when we read those revelations. That was not the way for those people to find out what is going on. <BR /> <BR />I support the Second Stage of the Bill.”
“We need to know what is happening with our local commissioning groups and where those powers and decisions are being transferred to. We need to know what democratic accountability there will be in any new groups, forums or partnerships. <BR /> <BR />Above all else, we all need to know what is happening with the issues in neurology, which I outlined, hyponatraemia, care homes and services for people with learning and physical disabilities. All those issues that have taken up a lot of time in the Assembly, rightly so, need an explanation. While I appreciate that we are talking about the general principles and will have further opportunities for scrutiny, this is an opportunity to point those matters out so that the Minister and his officials will have time to consider some of the outstanding questions.”
“<BR /> <BR />Given that we have gone through and are still coming through a historic phase in all our lives, especially those who work in Health and Social Care, I would like a lot more detail on the responsibilities that will be transferred to the Department and to the health and social care trusts. I note the comments of the Minister's colleague about bringing them into one trust, but, irrespective of that, I do not think that you will find anybody who will disagree with having more accountability and transparency. I say this genuinely: Health and Social Care staff need to feel that they can see themselves in whatever legislation comes through the Assembly. We talk about assets, and we all agree that they are assets, but we need to how and when they are being transferred. We need to know where the lines of accountability are.”
“<BR /> <BR />I know that legislation is legislation, but clause 6, on commencement, states that the Department of Health "may by order appoint" when clauses of the Bill will come into force. I would like a bit more detail on that. Is it all? There are only seven clauses, and, not to be dismissive of any legislation, there are probably two or three that are germane to the dissolution of the Health and Social Care Board. The rest are there because there is a legal responsibility for the transfer of services, along with the schedules and all the language and narrative that goes with them.”
“You, Minister, will know about Órlaithí Flynn's work on championing mental health. It is accepted across the board — the Minister did so in his high-level impact assessment — that certain conditions and issues require additional investment and support. That is a decision that he alone must make, but the call for additional investment in health is noted, if not supported. What will those services look like for youngsters in north and west Belfast, particularly those who struggle with their mental health or addiction? What will the transfer of services under clause 3 look like for people like Danielle O'Neill, who is involved in the neurology issue, given her life-changing diagnosis or lack of diagnosis? Whatever comes out of this, those people need to know what the issues are and how they will be impacted.”
“What does the Bill mean for those involved in the hyponatraemia inquiry? What does it mean for other ongoing issues? What does it mean for other scandals and other reports? People will be keen to know. They will not look at the detail; they will want to know what it means for them. The public need assurance, and they will not get it from anyone in the Chamber except the Minister. <BR /> <BR />Some Members mentioned staff, and staff are assets. It is not just about physical assets, it is about the human resources that make up health and social care services. I am very keen to find out what is happening. We also need more detail on the local commissioning end of things. As Alan, Cara and others said, there are concerns, for example, about the impact of the Bill on the urban/rural balance but also on addressing existing health inequalities.”
“It was a good consultation with varied responses, but the general thrust was that everybody wants better outcomes for patients. <BR /> <BR />I appreciate that this is only the Second Stage, but when we get to further scrutiny, as all Members have indicated, perhaps the Minister will take some of these considerations on board. For example, perhaps the Minister will explain the schemes for the transfer of staff, assets and liabilities mentioned in clause 3 and schedule 2. <BR /> <BR />Like most of us, the Minister probably found out about the revelations concerning the neurology inquiry in yesterday's 'Irish News'. The patients of Dr Watt, and, indeed, of the other consultant now under investigation by the General Medical Council (GMC), want to know what will happen next.”
“I thank the Minister for introducing the Bill, which has been described as technical in nature. That is an understatement, even though it has only seven clauses. When you read through the schedules, maybe the purpose was that we would put our screens down and give up, but we are not going to. We are discussing the general principles of the Bill, and we all accept that. As other Members have indicated, there is broad support at this stage. I do not think that anyone will argue against lessening the bureaucracy in health and social care. We are all reminded that Bengoa was about systems and not structures and that New Decade, New Approach was about co-production and co-design. I see this as an opportunity, but not to go back and look at it again. The Minister mentioned that the consultation report in 2016 was quite detailed.”
“I thank the Minister for being here today. Is he aware of the number of cases of thrombosis that have been recorded since the start of the vaccination programme? I, too, am in that age bracket, and I will be getting my vaccination soon, hopefully, in Belfast. I have been offered the chance to go to Fermanagh, but there you go.”
“I thank Gerry for asking the question. Minister, as part of your priorities in bringing proposals to the Executive, will you confirm that you will look at prioritising capital expenditure on children, particularly those who are statemented, who are being educated in Portakabins that were supposed to be temporary but have been there for decades?”
“Should the Assembly agree to amend Standing Order 112(8), it is clear that renewed guidance may need to be issued with regard to the change. I have written to the Speaker to that effect in order to offer any further information on the Committee's deliberations on the matter, if it is required. <BR /> <BR />Finally, as I have said previously in the House, the Committee will carry out its role. It will continue to keep Standing Orders under review and make amendments when or if required. I commend the motion to the House.”
“Members should therefore be in no doubt that, if they have not given notice in reasonable time before a vote, it will not be possible for there to be a proxy vote on their behalf on the matter. The position is unavoidable as a period of time is required to carry out the necessary administration to enable a proxy vote. <BR /> <BR />For the purposes of clarity, the deadline that is being amended today applies to a Member who is nominating a proxy. Standing Orders do not set out a deadline for Members who hold proxy votes from nominating another Member to carry out those functions. However, if it is ever necessary to nominate another Member to carry out those functions, that will also need to happen in reasonable time before any vote.”
“<BR /> <BR />The amendment provides that the deadline of 9.30 am to nominate a proxy no longer applies to a Member who becomes aware in the course of a sitting day that he or she is required to self-isolate in order to comply with public health regulations or guidance. In those circumstances, a Member may give notice to nominate a proxy after 9.30 am. However, it is important to emphasise that such notice must still be given as soon as possible and, in any event, in reasonable time before any vote on the item or items of business for which the notice applies. It will also be necessary in those circumstances for Members to inform the Speaker when they become aware that they were required to self-isolate.”
“The Committee agreed that this set of circumstances, in which the current COVID-19-related health regulations compel a Member to self-isolate and to leave Parliament Buildings on a sitting day after the deadline, had not been envisaged or, indeed, was not a consideration when Standing Order 112(8) was drafted, agreed by the Committee and then introduced by the Assembly. With that in mind, the Committee agreed at its meeting on 16 December 2020 to consider an amendment to Standing Order 112(8), and it sought legal advice on the matter. At its meeting on 17 February, the Committee received legal advice on the draft amendment, and it was content that the amendment addressed the Committee's concerns. Subsequently, it agreed a draft motion to amend Standing Orders.”
“At the end of last year, the Committee discussed the continuing pressures on plenary business, including the need and subsequent legal requirement to self-isolate in certain circumstances. During the discussions in Committee, concerns were raised that, under the current arrangements, a Member who is in attendance in Parliament Buildings who had chosen not to nominate a proxy to vote on their behalf and who then received a notification to self-isolate after 9.30 am would be compelled to leave the Building and be unable to vote on that day. Subsequently, the Committee agreed that no Member or party should be disadvantaged in that way.”
“When the Committee agreed a range of new and temporary Standing Orders to facilitate the continuation of Assembly business in March 2020, one of the most important considerations in agreeing the temporary provisions on voting was the need to maintain social distancing in the Chamber and Lobbies. Standing Order 112, which introduces proxy voting arrangements, was designed with that consideration in mind, to stop a large number of Members passing through the confined space of one of the Lobbies during a Division.”
“On behalf of the Committee on Procedures, I am pleased to move the motion, which proposes to amend Standing Order 112. Standing Order 112 is part of the current temporary measures in place to facilitate Assembly business during the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic. It relates to the deadline for giving notice that a Member wishes to vote by proxy on a particular sitting day. <BR /> <BR />Currently, Standing Order 112(8) states:”
“I live in a terraced house, with a yard that I can just about get a wheelie bin in and out of. I have plant pots on my roof, and that keeps me sane sometimes. Overcrowding has a shocking impact on mental health. Often, three generations are under one roof: grandparents, parents and children all living in a tiny house. <BR /> <BR />When we look at ways in which safe social distancing can happen in sport and exercise, let us consider the frail and elderly who cannot go for a walk. Let us look at the possibility of allowing them to have more than just a carer to accompany them, to give them someone to talk to. Often, that is the difference between keeping people alive and allowing them to live.”
“I am not saying that it is being deliberately withheld; I just think that the information given is too scant. I appeal to the Minister to provide a little more detail. I do not sit on the Health Committee and accuse him of withholding the information; I am just saying that he needs to give us more to scrutinise. <BR /> <BR />There is an issue of unintended consequences and anomalies. I would like to see, and be a part of, that recovery plan. I am happy to share any good practice or experience that I have. The people whom Gerry and I work with in North Belfast, like the people of many constituencies, have definitely earned their keep, and then some. Before COVID, they were working in the worst of conditions. Earlier, I joked about gardens, but I remind Members that few people in North Belfast have gardens. People have nowhere to go.”
“We need something like a Nightingale hospital for mental health services, somewhere for people to go to so that they can be treated, cared for and monitored, regardless of whether they have taken drugs or alcohol. We just have not got round to that, despite the goodwill of the professionals and their wish to do so. Mental health has got worse because of COVID. Families are deciding not to bring relatives to A&E. Then, it comes to the point of calling for an ambulance to bring them straight there. That is the level of issue that we are dealing with. <BR /> <BR />I am delighted that we are seeing some progress. I am delighted that we are looking at anomalies and trying to fix them as fast as we can. However, I am still not convinced that we are getting as much information as we could.”
“Edwin, in fairness, spoke in-depth about the issues relating to health and undiagnosed conditions, and he talked passionately and compassionately about mental health. The mental health issue has always been bad, even before COVID. Now, it is really worrying. I have seen people distressed whom I have never seen distressed before. These are robust, strong people who are leaders in their family and community. I hear examples of, "So-and-so is not doing too well". It is quite shocking. They are the ones who keep their families together. <BR /> <BR />The other issue is that we need to look at the way in which people access mental health services at the point of need throughout the period of COVID and these regulations.”
“I completely agree. I have raised that before. A school is an entire community, particularly when it comes to special education schools. Every person employed or volunteering in a special school has a really positive but integral role to play. It is important that all people serving food, transporting children back and forth, teaching or looking after the close and intimate care of children and young people should be vaccinated. This is equally true for other schools. We do not want education policy to be made on the hoof. However, to make it easier for people to buy into and understand, we need it to run alongside a vaccination programme. <BR /> <BR />I also want to raise the issue of a COVID recovery plan. We all talk about issues, and rightly so, because that is what this place is for.”
“There are lots of children of key workers in schools, and the classrooms are quite big —.”
“<BR /> <BR />I heard from the Sports Forum yesterday and saw it on the news, and I have also spoken to a lot of people and sporting groups in the community, as have many colleagues, and they are trying to bring forward protocols. I appreciate that it is not for these regulations in particular, but, when we are looking at anomalies and unintended consequences, we need to feed that in. <BR /> <BR />I will finish by saying that the vaccination programme is a big chink of hope for people. As someone who is well into her 50s, I am looking forward to getting my vaccine in Belfast, like a lot of people. As someone who has family members who work in the health and social care system and in education, I want to ensure that the school community and all staff are vaccinated as well.”
“I completely agree. The Member is right up to a point. The guidelines are preventing those activities happening. I was about to come to the unintended consequences. I was at a local park on Sunday, and it was really busy, but it was safe. Even though there were narrow paths, people were stopping for others. It was almost as if they were using their own traffic management system, and it was great to see. People are on record as saying that a return to training for outdoor sport in particular and physical activity is critical. A lot of people who are involved in sport do not care about the weather. They are not fair-weather sportspeople. As far as my kids are concerned, the muckier and rainier it is, the better.”
“We understand that that cannot happen, but I think that further interrogation is needed of anomalies to ensure that people do not end up in our A&Es. We also need to make sure that people do not end up in our criminal justice system. We need to talk to youth providers and to the community and voluntary sector about developing protocols around safe social distancing. They have already spoken to Gerry and I about what that may look like, so it is not as if they are sitting waiting for someone to drop it on their laps. They are the experts, so let us trust them to bring those issues forward.”
“<BR /> <BR />With regard to the trajectory of the virus and the R rate, to be honest with you, like a lot of people, I look at it on the news and read about it in texts, but then I look to see how many people are infected, how many people have died and how many people are ventilated. I look at the latter rather than the former. Too many people are still being infected, and, despite all the regulations, we still have not got to the bottom of where infections occur, and that is extremely worrying. We need to go back and look at our find, test, trace, isolate and support arrangements. <BR /> <BR />We have all heard the pleas from health and social care staff, families, parents and colleagues who work in the community sector, and we are not asking that policy is made on the hoof.”
“<BR /> <BR />I urge the Minister, as I have before, to look at that when he considers anomalies or unintended consequences. We are not talking about large numbers. We are talking about people who are first responders, as we have recognised in the House. They have stepped in and stepped up time after time to help people and prevent them ending up in A&E. That is what we are trying to do. Our youth providers in North Belfast — I dare say that it is the same across the board — are stepping in and stepping up to prevent kids from going in front of the criminal justice system, so we need to support them in that.”
“They may see a youth provider, who might not be identified as a youth provider, talking to kids about potentially harmful behaviour. <BR /> <BR />Not everyone has the ability to go out for a walk with someone from another household, so someone could just check in on them. More often than not, if people are under the influence of drugs, alcohol or both, they are not fit to walk. When we are looking at anomalies, we are asking a lot from people who have, to be fair, adhered to the regulations and guidance, but we also need to give them a bit of trust and leeway. They are afraid to do that in case they break the regulations, because it could affect their employment. Everything that we are doing goes against their natural instinct and training.”
“— I am not joking, because I am going to come back to that — with a window open, trying to talk to a distressed parent with two really distressed children in the house. They did not need me to talk; they needed me to go in and comfort them. To be quite honest, I was halfway into the living room, because I could not see them in distress. <BR /> <BR />Youth providers are seeing a growing number of children and young people out in the street involved in reckless behaviour. Not all of it is antisocial, but they are gathering. Those providers want to go out and make sure that the kids do not fall foul of COVID regulations. They are working with the local police who know them and trust that they are not breaking regulations, but what if the local police do not know them?”
“There is an understanding of the health regulations that talk about being able to go out and exercise with one other person, but community services, particularly those that are involved in counselling and emotional support, and youth providers are really worried about people. It has also been raised from a faith-based group that going beyond the one person that their people are allowed to meet is not always practical. <BR /> <BR />Edwin talked about drugs and alcohol. To give an example, I received a phone call from a family member with two children. The regulations meant that if I had gone into the house, there would have been four of us. In an emergency, I had to stand in someone's garden, which is a rare thing in the New Lodge, let me say”
“They have provided not just physical, clinical and medical support but counselling and emotional support. I particularly want to mention those staff who have to make the awful calls to families when it is quite obvious that their loved ones are about to pass or are seriously ill. They have to do that day after day, and it takes a special sort of person to do it. They are special, and we need to look after them. <BR /> <BR />We are looking at anomalies in what is being presented to us now, and we accept that the regulations will be reviewed. There have been examples from colleagues across the Chamber. My colleague Gerry Kelly and I continue to meet groups virtually on Zoom.”
“I also put on record my thanks to and deep appreciation of all health and social care workers. Just last night, I learned that a neighbour, who is only 42 and has four sons, passed as a result of COVID. It is really sad, and they did everything they should have. There is still transmission out there, and we need to get to the bottom of what is happening. I know that women like her and parents and families right across the board are doing everything they possibly can to keep not only themselves but their families safe. The last place that they want to be is the hospital. <BR /> <BR />I said at the previous debate on the regulations that our health and social care staff continue to amaze and inspire a lot of us. This is now described as the third wave. It has been a long year.”
“Perhaps, in his response, the Minister will confirm that, when we are talking about ambulances, that includes rapid response vehicles, motorbikes, movement of blood and movement of people from one hospital site to another, because those services have increased.”
“Yes, absolutely; all day long. Nonetheless, I am glad to see him back. <BR /> <BR />Minister, here we are again, debating amendments to health regulations that have already been made. In essence, we have all accepted the process, but it is fair to say that, in doing that and in supporting the Minister and the Department as best we can, there is an uneasiness in the Health Committee. The fact that we are not getting a level of detail prevents us from scrutinising the regulations as much as possible, and some of the detail that we are getting is very scant. The amendments are being made in order to address anomalies, which is fair enough when you look at issues concerning dealerships, emergency vehicles and things like that.”
“He would not have got away with it in the City Hall, Christopher; that is all I am saying. <BR /> <BR />I am absolutely delighted to see Edwin back, and I am surprised that he is back so soon. I am pleased for his family. He was described as robust, but I would describe him as stubborn and thran.”
“I am just saying that I would have put him out, easy; he was veering close to challenging the Chair.”
“You are getting soft, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle.”
“— are vaccinated? Will the Minister bring that issue back to his Executive colleague on Thursday, please?”
“I thank the Minister for his response, I welcome the fact that his report will be brought forward in May, but surely he will agree with me that our most vulnerable children and young people, particularly those in special education, should be our priority, especially given the situation that we are in. I understand his position on vaccination, particularly for the entire staff of special schools, but may I use this opportunity to ask him to talk to his colleague in Health to ensure that all teaching staff and all other members of the school community —”
“The Minister mentioned that the Peter's Hill/North Street junction was originally included in the scheme. Can she talk or write to her colleagues in Infrastructure and Belfast City Council about where that fits in with the shatter zone that she referred to and, indeed, the strategic site assessment that Belfast City Council and her Department are involved in?”
“That is not something that any of us want. They are also asking questions. They understand restrictions in one area but not in another. For example, the travel restrictions around the Kent variant did not go down well. Those questions need to be answered.”
“When it comes to the regulations, I can tell that they struggle but are trying to do their best. We need to see a bit more evidence and more detail. I do not think anyone has been mischievous over these things; they are trying to be collegiate. I am only new to the Committee, but I feel that more needs to come to help them to support you. We know all the problems because we ask numerous questions, but we also need to see what the resolutions will be. If that is work in progress, we need to see it. Like yourself, we are constituency representatives who have come through a lot over the decades. This last year, in my opinion, has impacted on some of the most hearty people that I know and some of the bravest staff working in health and social care, who have worked in A&E departments at the worst times and are considering their profession.”