Doug Beattie
Upper Bann · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I absolutely accept what the Minister said earlier, which is that she would not have been able to get such a Bill out of the Executive. That is the sentence that you would have heard from me, Minister, had you waited a minute. I absolutely accept that that is the case, and I think that we all do.”
“Just a minute. Minister, I guess that I disagree with you, because I too did my work. I accept that I do not have the resources that you and your Department have, but I sat with the Public Prosecution Service and talked through this very thing, and it said that it was workable.”
“The Director of Public Prosecutions would look at the seriousness of the offence — death by dangerous driving, risk of harm to the public, serial arson, assault, sexual behaviour that is a danger to the public — and he would also look at the best interests of the child, because we have not got away from diversionary measures here.”
“Had James Bulger been murdered by two nine-year-olds, we would probably be having a discussion about the minimum age of criminal responsibility being nine, such was the anger in 1993 when that horrendous crime took place. All the ages are arbitrary, and we need to deal with that.”
“That raises the minimum age of criminal responsibility from 10 to 12. It is not what some people, who want it to be 14, want; it is not what others, who want it to stay at 10, want; but I believe that 12 is right. Why do I presume that a child can commit a criminal offence at 12 years of age?”
“In essence, however, that amendment would raise the minimum age of criminal responsibility from 10 to 14, apart from in the case of the offences in that closed list. It has been said many times, and I will not repeat what has been said, but the closed list does not make sense to me either.”
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“Illegal drugs create many victims. Those who find themselves addicted to illegal drugs are victims. Addiction is insidious, and it destroys their lives. Their families face dealing with that drug addiction as they watch their loved ones slowly dissolve in front of them. They are also victims. Without a doubt, we must improve our addiction support services, and the Health Department plays a key role in that. There are those who lose their life through drug addiction, and the stigma of that is carried by their families long after their death. Of course, there are also those who experiment with taking drugs just to fit in with the crowd, thinking that it is safe to do so, with tragic consequences. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the DUP's motion and will, of course, support it.”
“Minister, thank you for that detailed answer. To be honest with you, I knew most of that. Here is the point: 96 officers were assaulted, while we can count the rest of the assaults on one hand. Surely it makes sense for the Northern Ireland Civil Service handbook to treat the Prison Service as separate from the rest of the Civil Service.”
“I acknowledge the really difficult path that the Justice Minister is having to tread on that particular issue. I am alarmed about the issue of derogations that she has raised quite forcefully. Does she believe that there should be a minimum standard of delivery for the Criminal Bar Association going forward, once we have put that particular issue to bed?”
“<BR /> <BR />Lots of things about St Patrick's Day are important to people: for me, it is about blending my Irishness, my Britishness and my military service.”
“For my whole adult life, as somebody in the military, I have celebrated St Patrick's Day and worn a sprig of shamrock in my regimental headdress. Many traditions come from that, one of which is that, every St Patrick's Day morning, the warrant officers and sergeants in my unit delivered "gunfire" to our soldiers. Gunfire is tea and whiskey. Traditionally, it was tea and rum, but, being Irish, we put in the Irish whiskey. The strangest place where I have ever done that was in the desert of Kuwait in 2003. We ensured that soldiers were able to celebrate St Patrick's Day on 17 March: they had shamrocks sent across to the Kuwaiti desert, put them in their headdress and had gunfire first thing that morning.”
“On 14 March of the same year, Queen Victoria issued the following instruction:”
“Many people look at the shamrock and see it as having many connotations, including religious connotations, but, for me, it is about something different. On 5 March 1900, after the news of a particularly bloody battle in the Boer War that resulted in the relief of Ladysmith, Queen Victoria telegraphed the following message to her victorious troops:”
“As we hurtle towards St Patrick's Day, I am reminded of how that day drags together into one my sense of Irishness, my sense of Britishness and my military history. Today, I am wearing my regimental tie, that of the Royal Irish Regiment, which is green. Many argue that the colour of St Patrick is not green but azure blue. That is a fair argument, I guess: in the British system, azure blue is the heraldic colour that we use. Indeed, Queen Victoria, on forming the Irish Guards, allowed them to wear a blue plume in their busby — their bearskin — or a blue hackle. That gives a sense of the history. <BR /> <BR />The shamrock, which is also on my tie, is incredibly important to me and my sense of Irishness, my sense of Britishness and my military history. Why is it important to me?”
“They are the ones that the motion talks about, and what we are doing is making sure that we put a plan in place to deal with them.”
“If either Government plan to offer funding, prisoner release, sentence reduction or a crime amnesty, we, as a party, will not support it. In the meantime, I hope that the Justice Minister, using the political advisory group, which is useful to have, can shape that scoping exercise, because we have to do something or else we will be sitting here in another 10 years saying, "How do we get rid of them?". <BR /> <BR />Our amendment is fair. It is long — I did not want it to be that long — but it was important to lay out exactly how we see this. We need to separate the paramilitary groups into the three subsections that I talked about. If we can get rid of two of them, our police can focus on the ones who are intent on criminality and coercive behaviour and who are absolutely destroying our society and communities.”
“That is a fair way of looking at it: look at it and see what we can do rapidly. It goes back to the very premise of what our amendment and the Sinn Féin amendment say: let us note the plans and see what the Governments intend to do. Until we have the details, we simply do not know. As the Justice Minister said, it would be premature to make a decision. <BR /> <BR />I reiterate that the proposal by the UK and Irish Governments is to appoint an interlocutor to see whether there could be a process; it is not the start of a process. It is right to wait and see whether that will bear fruit, while, at the same time, ensure that the paramilitary crime task force — the PSNI, the National Crime Agency (NCA) and HMRC — continue their work with the support of the Assembly.”
“I agree with the call in Sinn Féin's amendment for:”
“Nobody should or can be above the law, and turning a blind eye to past crimes cannot form part of any new process that aims to bring about paramilitary groups' transition to disbandment. <BR /> <BR />What do we have to lose just waiting to see what the Governments propose? What do we really have to lose? John Hume began talks with the IRA to bring about peace. Without his courage and that of David Trimble, we would never have had the Belfast Agreement. They made a decision to talk, and that is what we are talking about now. I notice, even today, that people are saying that talks are going on with the Real IRA to get it to disband. Nobody in the Chamber and no party in the Chamber has stood up to say, "They should stop", so why should we stop trying to target those who class themselves as loyalist paramilitaries? We should not.”
“I thank the Member for that, but I have to say that the Communities in Transition project, of which the Justice Minister is a part-owner, is giving us outcomes. It is telling us that it is giving us outcomes. Part of the proposal that we have today is your saying that there are outcomes. Your motion states that there are outcomes, and I am saying that there are outcomes. However, I am really saying that we should separate the ones whom we can get outcomes from and target the ones who are not intent on moving. <BR /> <BR />Let us be clear: there can be no further funding; no money inducements; no prisoner releases; and no sentence reductions to incentivise transitioning.”
“If they do not wish to stop their activities, we must systematically dismantle them at source by targeting their structures, recruitment and illegal activities. Nobody — absolutely nobody — is intent on giving a free pass to those involved in criminality, drug dealing, extortion, coercive behaviour, sexual abuse, child abuse, moneylending, murder or maiming while flying a UDA, UVF, INLA or IRA flag of convenience. Nobody is giving them that. We are trying to find the elements whom we can move away from that. <BR /> <BR />Secondly — this is where the initiative has merit — there must be community transition towards empowerment and support for the rule of law. That can happen only if conversations are held and pathways identified. We have to talk, but let us be clear —.”
“The Communities in Transition programme, which, granted, was in only eight areas, clearly uses and speaks to former paramilitaries and those who are still active. Again, it does that whether we like it or not, and it is done to create community resilience. <BR /> <BR />Having isolated the first two groups, we could then focus our limited resources on tackling the third group, which is those who are intent on lining their pockets and abusing their communities. That means that the funding of the paramilitary crime task force, which is around £5·5 million, could then be focused on tackling those criminal parasites. <BR /> <BR />The first element in dealing with paramilitaries is police, justice, enforcement and jail.”
“Then there are those who are using their energy positively. Whether we like it or not, I know of some who stand on peace lines of an evening to make sure that communities are not fighting with each other. That is positive engagement. They are out there whether we like it or not. Those are two of the groups. The third group is those who are lining their pockets — those who have their feet on the necks of our communities. Those are the people whom we need to target. <BR /> <BR />If we look at this through primary colours, we could simply suggest that the scoping exercise should target the first two subgroups and, in doing so, separate them from the third. What would that do? We already have that in part.”
“The Justice Minister is saying, "Let's find out what they are planning and make a decision". Members can shake their heads, but I have it in writing and am happy to read the whole thing out and save their blushes. <BR /> <BR />Our amendment is the right approach. The right approach is to note what the Governments are saying. What we have in our amendment, which is that we should note that, is what Sinn Féin has in its amendment. What we are really saying is, "Give us the details, and we will reserve judgement until we see them." <BR /> <BR />Our opinion is formed by engaging with communities and with the police. Here is where, the police think, we are at this moment. Each paramilitary organisation pretty much has three subgroups, the first of which is the people who are completely inactive but may still have membership.”
“The motion is premature, not in the sense that we do not want to get rid of paramilitaries — we do — but in the sense that its intent is premature. Indeed, the Justice Minister agrees with me. In response to a question for written answer from my colleague Colin Crawford, she states:”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. As I stand here, I am conscious that every person in every corner of the Chamber is united on one thing: there is no place for paramilitary crime gangs. There never was, and they should go now. They must disband immediately. They have no credibility, but they have a negative, coercive grip on our communities. We are united on that, but how do we progress this? <BR /> <BR />The motion proposes that the Assembly:”
“I thank the Minister for his clarity on that. Does he agree that it is important to take on board as many views and concerns as possible in developing such policies? On that note, I welcome his recent agreement to add the Northern Ireland branch of the Women's Rights Network to his Department's consultation list.”
“Like the Member who asked the original question, I am glad that the Minister recently met his Irish counterpart. Will the Minister detail what support is out there for bereaved families?”
“Thank you, Minister. You do not keep a list: the response to the question for written answer that I tabled says that you do not. The question is this: will you take that position when you ask for funding applications in relation to ending violence against women and girls? People who are involved in domestic abuse, sexual abuse, rape and child abuse could receive funding. Nobody wants that.”
“Minister, our party always argues against boycotts; other parties like boycotts. Some parties complain about boycotts and then partake in boycotts themselves. I ask the First Minister to be absolutely clear: will the deputy First Minister be going to the White House to represent Northern Ireland?”
“The Minister 's answer feeds in well to the question that I am about to ask about pressures and the moral component. The Department of Finance believes that the sickness-absence policy for the Northern Ireland Prison Service should be the same as that for all civil servants. Does the Minister agree that the policy should take account of the unique role of our Prison Service? What is she doing to get DOF to change the policy to reflect that unique role?”
“To tie this down and clarify, will the Minister advise who is ultimately responsible for the policy decisions in relation to the screening programme?”
“Hopefully, he can bring us back some success”
“Andy was only 20 years of age when he lost his legs after stepping on an IED in Afghanistan. I was serving alongside him at the time. I recommend that you all watch the programme 'Wounded', which outlines Andy's fight for life and his fight to recover from the terrible injuries through which he lost his legs and his eyesight was seriously damaged. Andy runs his own charity, he is an effective and incredible constituency MLA, he has an MBE and, now, he is a sportsman. That is stuff that movies are made of. <BR /> <BR />Sometimes, we do not give credit for what our Members have achieved. Mr Speaker, I hope that you and everybody in the Chamber, regardless of where you sit or what you believe in, will not only congratulate Andy on all that he has achieved but, more so, wish him well as he participates in the games that started yesterday.”
“The Invictus Games were started in 2014 for injured and sick military personnel. This year's Invictus Games are being held in Vancouver and Whistler in Canada and have over 500 participants from 25 nations. This year, for the first time, Team Afghan Unconquered will be represented. That is a team of Afghan military veterans, which is incredibly important. Also of note, however, is the fact that our own Andy Allen is taking part in three events in the Invictus Games: Nordic skiing, rowing and wheelchair rugby.”
“Minister, the ombudsman is there to hold the police to account, and that is fair enough. However, we have now got to a stage where the police have lost trust in the ombudsman. Graciously, you condemned the incidents that led to nine injured police officers in Londonderry, but I am hearing that police officers are failing to defend themselves because of fear of what happens through the ombudsman's office. Minister, do you think that it is time to have an independent review of the Office of the Police Ombudsman?”
“Thank you, Minister, for your answer. I understand that this is not just about your Department. I know that you will agree with me that we should not follow EU regulations on this matter but should get rid of microplastics. With eight out of 12 top-flight team pitches going plastic, this is becoming a real issue. I ask the Minister to look at it in the long term, as we must. Will he, working with other Departments, set up a fund to support clubs and other institutions once the regulation comes in?”
“That decision was to engage, and we got rid of four terrorists.”
“Their lives were taken by other equally young men. However, somebody sent those four young men out to do that — somebody sitting in a warm office — and they have blood on their hands as well. When the families grieve, they must look to those individuals and the party on the opposite Benches, which eulogised, prompted and justified those sorts of actions, and say, "You sent my young man out to die while you sat in your warm office". <BR /> <BR />We need to understand that split seconds are exactly that. We could be talking about something different here, as we were in Derryard, which I know well because I have been there. There were two dead soldiers and two wounded soldiers, and there could have been more. On balance, the right decision was taken by the commander on the ground.”
“That is the context, and every soldier knew exactly what the context was when they were faced with a terrorist enemy that was armed — and the terrorist unit at Clone was heavily armed. <BR /> <BR />The patrol was not expecting them to come there. The patrol expected the attack to be mounted from the car park before the DShK was mounted on the vehicle, but they did not come. However, they came back, and the weapon was mounted. The commander at the time on that cold night — it was a cold, dark night — made a split-second decision that he had to engage. It is simple for people sitting in a warm courtroom or in here to say that he made the wrong decision. He made a decision because he thought that he was under threat. Therefore, I disagree with the judgement. <BR /> <BR />Let us remember that four young men lost their lives.”
“On 16 February 1992, a heavily armed terrorist unit of up to 10 individuals was engaged by a special military unit under the rules of engagement — the so-called "yellow card" — which state that a challenge must be given unless to do so would increase the risk of death or grave injury to you or any other person. The judge disagreed that the soldiers were under threat, so let us give a little context if we can. <BR /> <BR />In 1989, a truck similar to the one used in Clonoe, fitted with a 12·7 mm DShK heavy machine gun — the same as the one used in Clonoe — drove into Derryard permanent vehicle checkpoint (PVCP) and engaged the soldiers there. It was commanded by a member of the east Tyrone brigade of the IRA. The result was two dead soldiers and two wounded soldiers.”
“It is an important issue. Minister, do you intend to review the destruction of healthy dogs if they have been seized and held in a council pound for a time, which I think is something like five or seven days?”
“Does the Minister agree that the statistics on paramilitary attacks do not tell the whole story? When you add moneylending, racketeering, extortion and intimidation, all that activity has a negative effect on society and can be just as harming as paramilitary-style attacks.”
“Nevertheless, we can put in measures to deal with the issue, possibly including the repurposing of Murray House at Hydebank to house biological females who identify as transgender men, with something similar at Maghaberry and Magilligan for biological men who identify as female. However, intrinsically, I believe that biological males should be housed in a male prison and biological females should be housed in a female prison.”
“Under the Equality Act 2010, sex is a protected characteristic, as is gender reassignment: another conflict. The Act defines a man as "a male of any age" and a woman as "a female of any age", but it provides the ability to distinguish in service provision. <BR /> <BR />Many will cite the gender recognition certificate (GRC) as a reason for transgender females and males to be housed in a male or female holding facility in accordance with how they identify, but nowhere in the GRC is gender-affirming surgery expected. Put simply, a transgender woman who still has male genitalia could be housed in a women's prison. That could be in the most open part of the prison and cells. <BR /> <BR />I do not pretend to speak for all women. Nobody in the Chamber speaks for all women.”
“'Supporting Change: A strategy for women and girls in or at risk of contact with the criminal justice system' states:”
“Women are housed only with other women. Two of the landings have an open-door policy. On one of the landings, the doors are open 24 hours a day, with the inmates holding the keys. On another landing, the doors are open until 2200 hours each evening. Putting a biological male in that environment is, in my opinion, wrong and contrary to the Nelson Mandela rules. Nobody is saying that all transgender women are predatory, but, again, the very presence of a male in a space designed for women creates problems and, possibly, anxiety and stress for the women housed there. At no stage are those women consulted before a biological male is placed in their midst. <BR /> <BR />Where does the confusion come from? In part, it is about our Justice Department failing to grasp the issues and continuing to send out mixed messaging.”
“It is a mess. There needs to be proper policy from the Minister to give legal guidance to our judiciary, Police Service and Public Prosecution Service (PPS). The argument that all transgender detainees are given a risk assessment before committal is fair enough, but every individual who is committed receives a risk assessment. It is normal practice. A risk assessment is normally done by the prison staff and, where needed, by prison health professionals from the South Eastern Health and Social Care Trust. It is normal. It happens quickly. <BR /> <BR />The argument that Hydebank is a fully mixed male and female prison just does not add up. Yes, males and females undertake education, training or work detail together, but that is closely supervised by the Prison Service. However, living support and accommodation are completely segregated.”
“I will not. <BR /> <BR />Why was the person moved? According to the Justice Minister on 21 December 2024:”
“Again, there is no legal policy on the issue. There are guidance notes, but they can be undermined by the courts; indeed, that is what happened in the most recent case, where a transgender woman who had been housed in Maghaberry was moved to Hydebank Wood following a court judgement.”
“If Members have a different definition, they can lay it out today. <BR /> <BR />That brings us to the last point: where do we house biological males and females who identify as transgender if they are handed a custodial sentence? 'The United Nations Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners', known as the "Nelson Mandela rules", state:”
“I will not give way until I get through my speech, sorry. If I find time at the end, I will give way. <BR /> <BR />Of course, the trans community exists. We must look to see how we can cater to, help and support that community. However, that should not be to the detriment of over 51% of the population in Northern Ireland, who are biological females. <BR /> <BR />I suppose that, at this point, we must define what a woman is, because that is at the heart of the issue. A woman is an adult female or, as 'The Law Dictionary' puts it:”
“The Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) outlines in its guide to single-sex service providers why it could and, I believe, should be the case for reasons of privacy or decency, to prevent trauma or to ensure health and safety. <BR /> <BR />Lastly, the changing of language associated with women needs to stop. It is not "chest feeding"; it is "breastfeeding". It is not a "birthing person" but a "pregnant woman". It is not a "frontal birth"; it is a "vaginal birth". It is not "cis women"; it is just "women". Of course —.”
“Sport — not just elite sport but grassroots sport — is another area where women believe that the present system is against them. Transgender women, who are biologically male, have a physiological advantage over women. It is not fair. It should not be allowed. Sporting organisations should ensure that they do not allow it to happen. Imagine that you are a young woman now starting out in sport and wanting to reach the highest levels but, every time, being ignored or not selected due to the presence of a transgender woman who is bigger or stronger. <BR /> <BR />Asking for a separation of rights between women and transgender women is not an unusual position.”
“Do women deserve their own spaces, such as changing rooms, toilets, women-only groups, crisis centres, medical facilities, including hospital wards, and holding facilities, such as prisons? I believe that they do, and if you believe that they do, you should support the motion. Under normal circumstances, women should expect to be searched by women with only women present during said search.”
“To vote to leave out any one of those groups is not in keeping with the inclusive Union that I aspire to. Therefore, I will not support the amendment. <BR /> <BR />Secondly, the motion talks about "societal rights". There is a saying that goes, "The right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins." What does that mean? It means that, at times, rights can be conflicting and that there is no automatic hierarchy in delivering what is best for the majority of people here in Northern Ireland or anywhere else. At times, there are genuine conflicts in rights, which are laid out in the Equality Act 2010. Over the past number of years, many women have felt that their rights have been undermined. Those issues can be best seen in spaces, sport and language.”