Doug Beattie
Upper Bann · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I absolutely accept what the Minister said earlier, which is that she would not have been able to get such a Bill out of the Executive. That is the sentence that you would have heard from me, Minister, had you waited a minute. I absolutely accept that that is the case, and I think that we all do.”
“Just a minute. Minister, I guess that I disagree with you, because I too did my work. I accept that I do not have the resources that you and your Department have, but I sat with the Public Prosecution Service and talked through this very thing, and it said that it was workable.”
“The Director of Public Prosecutions would look at the seriousness of the offence — death by dangerous driving, risk of harm to the public, serial arson, assault, sexual behaviour that is a danger to the public — and he would also look at the best interests of the child, because we have not got away from diversionary measures here.”
“Had James Bulger been murdered by two nine-year-olds, we would probably be having a discussion about the minimum age of criminal responsibility being nine, such was the anger in 1993 when that horrendous crime took place. All the ages are arbitrary, and we need to deal with that.”
“That raises the minimum age of criminal responsibility from 10 to 12. It is not what some people, who want it to be 14, want; it is not what others, who want it to stay at 10, want; but I believe that 12 is right. Why do I presume that a child can commit a criminal offence at 12 years of age?”
“In essence, however, that amendment would raise the minimum age of criminal responsibility from 10 to 14, apart from in the case of the offences in that closed list. It has been said many times, and I will not repeat what has been said, but the closed list does not make sense to me either.”
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“Speech and language therapist interventions can reduce offending by enabling individuals in the criminal justice system to access a wide range of rehabilitation programmes, which empowers change. It is about empowering the young people who find themselves at the wrong end of the law. <BR /> <BR />I will revert back to the very start. I have repeated time and again, as others have and will, that this is not just for the Justice Department; it really starts from the bottom up.”
“That is provided by the Department of Health, but there must be a structured intervention combined with the screening and training functions. It is about providing support to transform. <BR /> <BR />The advantages of having speech and language therapists in the justice system are extremely clear. Speech and language therapists have an increased knowledge and understanding of the barriers to engagement and can help with communication, which helps staff. Speech and language therapists help those with needs to better understand what is happening to them. People fall into the criminal justice system. They may find themselves at someone's disposal and simply not understand it. It is important that we work with them so that they understand what is happening to them. <BR /> <BR />The other clear advantage is for society.”
“That is a really good point. It is about that joined-up approach that I am making the point. As I said at the start and will continue to say, this is not just for Justice; it is far wider than Justice. You are right, and thank you for the intervention. <BR /> <BR />The speech and language difficulties can create challenging behaviour. There may be disruptive, violent or aggressive behaviour; self-harm; poor mental health; segregation; and the increased use of physical restraint and intervention. We need to train to prevent that. <BR /> <BR />Support is the third element of the three-pronged approach. Direct speech and language therapy and intervention should be provided for those in the criminal justice system, particularly the youth justice system.”
“That number comes from an application pool of 700. Therefore, there is a need to train people. We cannot do the screening unless we have the people. The screening could, and possibly should, act as a mitigating factor when judges review sentences. However, once an individual enters a prison estate or probation in a sentence-management plan, they should have a personal development record outlining the very issues that they face. <BR /> <BR />The second part of the approach is training. The judiciary needs to be trained to understand DLD and other speech and language issues. That could help them to understand the problem when youth offenders go in front of them. Prison officers must be trained from an early stage, as should probation officers, to understand the effects of speech and language difficulties.”
“We have young people ending up in the youth justice system finding themselves at its disposal but not understanding it, and because they do not understand it, they end up reoffending. Some 62% of people with DLD reoffended, and 25% who did not have DLD reoffended, so there is a real difference there. <BR /> <BR />The Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists asked for a three-pronged approach. The first prong is to screen everyone entering the criminal justice system for speech and language difficulties. That is no easy task. It is a huge task, because we have a limited number of speech and language therapists. We have only 28 undergraduate places per year at Ulster University, and 10 of those are provided by the Irish Government, so we are likely to lose those people once they have qualified.”
“It is not something that just happens when young people get into the criminal justice system. It happens beforehand, when they are at school. That just expands the point so that people understand. <BR /> <BR />A study on the youth justice system found that, of 145 young offenders, three in five had DLD. In 2023, a screening of a sample population of Hydebank Wood Secure College found that 75% of those assessed had underlying speech, language and communication difficulties. The South Eastern Health and Social Care Trust conducted that screening, which very much outlines the problem that we face in the youth justice system. It means that many of those young people simply do not understand the terms of their sentence or what is required of them in court orders or under licence.”
“You all know what it is like and the frustration that you feel if you cannot make yourself understood. Next is comprehension, which is our ability to understand what is being said to us. If we do not understand what is being said to us, it can lead to poor outcomes. The next reason is social communication, which is how to speak to different people in the right way at the right time. I think that we all take that a little bit for granted, but we should not. <BR /> <BR />Developmental language disorder (DLD) is a lifelong condition that is characterised by significant and persistent impairment in understanding the use of language. That goes back to the point that I am making. When we talk about developmental language disorder, we are talking about something that appears at a very early age in our youth.”
“It is an issue for Economy, because, in our education system, we do not have enough undergraduate places for speech and language training. Of course, it is an issue for Finance, because if we do not get the finance, we do not have the resource and cannot provide the outcomes that we need. I hope that, in the debate, other Members will outline some of those points, because it is important to realise that the issue does not sit only on the shoulders of the Justice Minister. I am talking about the criminal justice system and the youth justice system, and that is where the focus is. However, there is so much to it. <BR /> <BR />Communication skills are a central plank of social inclusion for a number of reasons. The first is expression. Expressions are used to make ourselves understood.”
“In opening this debate on speech and language therapy in the criminal justice system, I need to acknowledge two things. First, I thank the Justice Minister for coming along to respond to the debate. I wish her well in her role. I do not envy her, but she will certainly have my support. Secondly, I want to be absolutely clear that this is not an issue solely for the Justice Department. In fact, it covers so many different Departments. It is a Health issue, because it is the Health Department that provides the speech and language therapists to give the outcomes that we require. It is also an Education issue, because if we do not find the trouble early on with our children, that stores up troubles for later on.”
“I welcome the Minister to his post. <BR /> <BR />We find ourselves in a truly abysmal situation. Some £600,000 has been spent on that already this year. Will the Minister outline how much it is likely to cost and for how long? Will that spend protect our wild Atlantic salmon waterways, which are in danger from leakage?”
“First Minister, will you outline your proposals for the setting up of a transformation delivery unit?”
“We select the Audit Committee and nominate Alan Chambers.”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. My nomination for vice chair of the Infrastructure Committee is John Stewart.”
“I choose the Committee for Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs. My nomination for Chair is Tom Elliott.”
“The Ulster Unionist Party's best wishes go to the King — of course they do — and to his family, who will have to deal with this in the long term. We hope that he has a speedy recovery, and we thank him for being open with the diagnosis that he has received. That conversation cannot be hidden, and it needs to be had more often than it has been. Our best wishes go to him. <BR /> <BR />I will finish by passing on my condolences to the family and friends of John Bruton on his passing. That is another terrible shock. The one thing that I am grateful for is that we are now in a position to start to help those people who are dealt this terrible affliction.”
“I am minded to think of Dale, and I send my best wishes to him. Even in my party, there are members who have had to battle through cancer. It is so invasive. It really is a disgusting disease. However, we have made huge advancements. I am also reminded of the fact that, right across these islands, many families are dealing with cancer at this moment.”
“Cancer is a terrible disease that respects nobody, young or old. I do not think that there is anybody sitting in the Chamber now who has not been affected, directly or indirectly, by cancer.”
“Some of the challenges ahead are monumental, and we will meet them only if we support each other. There are opponents in here, and I get that we will have divisions and arguments, but we can all move in one direction, and that is to improve the lives of the people who live here, work here and visit here. I set out now, as we go forward, regardless of who the Speaker or the Ministers will be, that the Ulster Unionist Party will work with you to make this place the best place that it can be for the people who live here.”
“We can do that by making Northern Ireland a working part of the United Kingdom. <BR /> <BR />We need to focus on people and everything that goes with that, regardless of their religion, sexual orientation or which community background they come from. We can do that by focusing on things like the economy, because the economy will drive our infrastructure to make people more connected. It will help us with our health service and education. It will help to build houses and create jobs so that our young people wake up in the morning with a sense of purpose and go to bed at night with a sense of fulfilment .The economy connects people to everything that goes on in Northern Ireland. That is what I am looking for going forward, but this is no panacea.”
“<BR /> <BR />I also wish the best to whomever takes over as Speaker when the election happens. Of course, it will be Dr Steve Aiken, but I can thank him personally later. I thank you, Mr Acting Speaker, for all that you have done as well. It is not easy to be thrust in there periodically and have to go through this process. <BR /> <BR />As for where we stand now, we have had two years of having no Executive or Assembly, and we have all been frustrated in some shape or form. Everybody, from all corners of the Chamber, has been frustrated, but, despite all of that frustration, the people who have suffered most are the people of Northern Ireland. They have really suffered, and, in our frustrations, we must remember that as we look forward. We have a Herculean task before us, and we have to improve the lives of the people.”
“I stand primarily to support the nomination of our candidate for Speaker, Dr Steve Aiken, an exceptional candidate who would be fair and robust. If he gets cross-community support, he will add value to what we have in the House and on the Floor. <BR /> <BR />It would be remiss of me, as leader of the Ulster Unionist Party, not to look to the outgoing Speaker, Alex Maskey, and thank him for all that he has done. It has been a difficult stint, and his retirement has been long in coming; I suppose that it is one of the longest. I have engaged extensively with him, certainly around the death and funeral of Her Majesty The Queen and the coronation of King Charles. I thanked him then and thank him now for all that he did in that regard. I thank you as you move on, and I wish you all the best.”
“I propose my friend and colleague Mike Nesbitt.”
“I got it wrong because I used that terminology. It is exactly the same: they sit and they think that they can barrack and bully you into doing something when we are simply not going to. We are not going to. We will have this Executive up and running, and we will provide for the people of Northern Ireland regardless. It is as simple as that. It will happen because we will get to the same place on the protocol whether we have an Executive or not. The difference is that the people will suffer because of it.”
“Thank you, and do you know what, Mr Acting Speaker? I am a big enough man to say, when I get something wrong, that I got it wrong. I will apologise —”
“That is up to you, but I will not be bullied.”
“I know that you do not want to do that, and I know that you think you can scream and whinge and whine like a girl from the sidelines. That is up to you —”
“The Northern Ireland protocol will be dealt with through negotiation between the UK and the EU, or it will be dealt with by legislation. Whether or not we have an Executive up and running will not change that fact. Anyone who tells you that the collapse of the Executive brought anybody to the negotiating table is telling you lies. Global forces brought them back to the negotiating table. The cost of the protocol brought them back to the negotiating table, not this. <BR /> <BR />While some sitting in this Chamber today will feel good about themselves because they are able to raise this issue, the reality is that people out there will still suffer. There are good people out there, there are good people in here and there are good people in the DUP.”
“They have shared champagne breakfasts together and taken overseas trips together for the past 16 years, and they have pushed Northern Ireland into the dirt for their own political gain. <BR /> <BR />Mandate. Mandate. I am sick to death of hearing the word "mandate". If your mandate is not the 1·9 million people in Northern Ireland who we work for, you are an absolute busted flush. We have to work for all our people. I am sick of it. I am sick of the word "mandate". The protocol was a bad deal, and it was a bad deal that was facilitated by the DUP. It undermined the UK territorial integrity in 2019, and it undermines the UK's territorial integrity now. However, handing all the power to those who brought in the protocol is absolutely crazy.”
“It does not care about people being cold. It does not care about waiting lists. It does not care that services are being undermined. It does not care that nurses are going on strike. It does not care that some of our most vulnerable older people will die cold and hungry. The DUP cares about the DUP and about taking votes back off the TUV. That is all that it cares about. The DUP and Sinn Féin are two sides of the same damn coin.”
“Merry Christmas to you all. It is warm in here, is it not? It is a bit of a shame that many of our people sitting in their homes right now are cold. Many businesses are looking at their energy bills and saying that they will just not survive this winter. Many service providers are wondering what they can cut just to provide the basic level of service. It is warm in here, is it not? That £600 energy support scheme would have helped other people to be warm also. <BR /> <BR />I know that the recall petition is gesture politics and is born of frustration. I just do not see what we gain from hurling insults across the Assembly while others suffer with the cost-of-living crisis. The reality is that, as was the case for three years with Sinn Féin, the DUP simply does not care. It does not care about people being hungry.”
“I said before that all that they are getting out of here from leadership is silence, except for the arguments and rants that they will get today. Of course, I am part of that because I am just as angry. <BR /> <BR />We need to get back to work now. We need to find a mechanism to get back to work. The Secretary of State needs to listen. An election will not be good. What I want is the parties coming together for talks: something to try to come up with some sort of a deal or compromise needs to be put in place. I want to get back to work. I would be back in here today. I would be back in here tomorrow. The Ulster Unionist Party wants to serve.”
“We have to fix the issues around the protocol, and we can do that if we come together, and we can come together if we have an Executive. <BR /> <BR />We need to get back to work. We need to get back to work to support our economy. We need to get back to work to support people's jobs. We need to get back to work to deal with the nurses' pay claims because it will focus minds in the middle of December if our nurses are on a picket line and we are going out asking for votes. It will focus all our minds. We need to get together to find a solution and get the Government to start moving on the replacement for the European social fund. People will lose out because it is not there, and we will lose jobs. We need to get back to work to promote for all our people, who are suffering as we speak.”
“The language that is being used is not helping. "Joint authority": nobody is defining what that is. It is just not helpful. It is not going to happen. We know that it does not happen. The Belfast Agreement does not allow for it. We are just using that language because we have to poke each other in the eye. It is what we do all the time. <BR /> <BR />I will always stand up and promote the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement. I will always stand up to say that we need government up and running. I will always say that it is better to have the arguments in this place and provide for the people out there. I am happy with that, and I think that most of the people here, regardless of where they sit in this place, want to do exactly that: provide for the people out there.”
“I will not, Jonny — "There are fundamental problems here, and we have to deal with those fundamental problems". There are, and we do. We cannot ignore it. We have been arguing the case since 2019 that we need to fix those problems, but fixing those problems should not be done to the detriment of stable government. They can be done at the same time. They are being done at the same time. They are being done as we speak. Things have moved, and conversations have changed, but it is our people who are suffering. <BR /> <BR />As we get into this place where we have nothing — we do not have even the basis or foundations of any form of government in Northern Ireland because the last vestiges of it go at midnight tonight — I am really concerned that people are going out of their way to unpick the Belfast Agreement.”
“We will not be part of that, because we do not have a Government running at this moment. We are being put on the windowsill of the United Kingdom, and that concerns me as a whole-UK unionist and as an Ulster Unionist. Of course, that is because of the protocol, and the protocol is absolutely an issue. People have changed on that issue from demanding "rigorous implementation" to saying, "Actually, there are fundamental problems here" —”
“Absolutely, Mr Acting Speaker. I have said it now, so it hardly matters. <BR /> <BR />Interestingly, when the new Prime Minister became the Prime Minister, the first thing that he did was to call the leaders of the Welsh and Scottish Governments to pass on his vision for the United Kingdom. He has not phoned the Northern Ireland First Minister or deputy First Minister because we have neither. He spoke about the intergovernmental relations forum, which is the four nations coming together to talk about the issues that affect all corners of this United Kingdom that we are part of.”
“<BR /> <BR />I also want to take a moment, please, to thank Robin Swann, our Health Minister, for all that he has done in the last two years. It has been exceptional in exceptionally difficult times and in the middle of COVID. He has been fantastic. It is only right and fair —”
“There is an awful lot of anger in the Chamber today, and I understand that, but the anger being shown on the Floor today is nothing compared with the anger on the streets and in the towns and villages of Northern Ireland. We are all going to feel a little bit of that anger in the next six or seven weeks. It will be fun. <BR /> <BR />I will start with a little bit of good news. I give a big shout-out to the campaign to save the Craigavon lakes and parks. They have worked for six years and finally got the decision overturned so that the park in central Craigavon will no longer be destroyed. I shout out to them, "Well done". The next one to deal with is Knock Iveagh, and we all know that I have championed that.”
“I nominate the Member for Strangford, Mike Nesbitt MLA.”
“Today, we can not only make the point that we need to make about the protocol but elect a Speaker in order to do some business so that we do not have silence. Otherwise, we will walk out of here, and the moment will be lost. We cannot allow that. Nobody here can allow that. Individually, you cannot allow that. Moral courage will tell you not to allow that. In nominating Mike Nesbitt, I understand the limitations of what we can do, but I also understand that it is the right thing to do so that we can at least help, in part, the people who need our help.”
“That would allow us to do part of the business that we can and to move within the budgets that we have. If we elect a Speaker, we can do something to end the silence without compromising the DUP's position on the protocol, which is an issue. If we do not, there will be silence. That uncomfortable silence that you all felt when I first stood up is what you will feel from this moment on as the people of this country stare at us and we give them nothing. <BR /> <BR />We can elect a Speaker, and I have nominated a Speaker. He is a man of integrity, a man of compassion and a man who can reach every corner of the Assembly. You know him, and he is somebody whom you can speak to with honesty and somebody who can reach out beyond the Assembly: Mike Nesbitt. He also acted as a victims' commissioner, so he knows the heartache that is out there.”
“Silence. That is the silence that we were subjected to for three years when Sinn Féin walked out and the silence that we will now be subjected to if the DUP does not support a Speaker. People will go cold and hungry in their home, and, from this place, there will be silence. People will die on waiting lists, and, from this House, there will be silence. People will be desperately calling for an ambulance, and, from this place, there will be silence. Our children will go to school hungry and will not be able to afford uniforms, and, from this House, there will be silence. The only thing that will be a constant after today will be silence from us. The rest of the people will be screaming for help, and we will be silent. <BR /> <BR />Today, we can at least do something: we can elect a Speaker.”
“Thank you for that comprehensive answer, Minister, but I am not sure that it got to the nub of my question, which was about whether the pay review body's recommendations were considered when reaching the pay settlement. My understanding is that the activation letter for the pay review body was not sent, and therefore there was no recommendation. Is it not part of the contract that members do not go on strike because the pay review body helps deal with pay disputes?”
“This is a really important issue, which we have discussed already. I will go back to the issue of people trafficking. Although we can understand why everybody is focused on Ukrainian families who are coming in from that terrible situation, there are already many asylum seekers in Northern Ireland. What work has been done to ensure that those who cannot work or supplement their income and who are in hotels and other temporary locations around Northern Ireland are not themselves being trafficked?”
“Thank you for the statement, Minister; it is a genuinely good statement. There are no smiling faces at the Lurgan campus of Craigavon Senior High School, however, where some of the most vulnerable children in Upper Bann still eat their lunches — packed meals — between parked cars and where there are still safeguarding issues. You said that you would make a decision on the future of those children as early as possible, but, in the last week of the mandate, you still have not done so. Will you commit to telling the community in Lurgan what the decision on the Lurgan campus of Craigavon Senior High School will be? Will pupils be bussed to Portadown purely because they were not given a grammar school education?”
“Having looked long and hard at the matter and having read the emails and listened to the arguments, we in the Ulster Unionist Party are clear that we will not sign any petition of concern, but we cannot support the Bill.”
“This is a societal issue that we have to deal with, and we have to deal with it in a democratic way, as we are doing today through a vote and as we will do in the next mandate to fix the problems. <BR />I have clearly engaged with many people to come to that point of view. The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission made it quite clear to me that a petition of concern would not be within the letter or the spirit of what it is intended for, and if we go to the new mechanisms in NDNA, the Human Rights Commission will be one of the arbitrators on petitions of concern. In this instance, the use of the petition of concern is not what it is intended for. <BR /> <BR />Leadership is a lonely place, whether internally or externally, and moral courage is a component of leadership.”
“Of course we support the integrated education system, and, come a new mandate, we will aim to fix what we believe are some of the problems, and we will do that, hopefully, in consultation with other parties. <BR /> <BR />However, there is a question that is being asked all the time. I am being baited by this question from various quarters, and no doubt I will be baited by this question afterwards. The question is about the petition of concern. <BR /> <BR />Let me be clear about the petition of concern: the Ulster Unionist Party will not abuse a mechanism that we put in in good faith in 1998, and signing a petition of concern on this issue would be an abuse of that mechanism. There is no minority, no single identity being affected.”
“It is like everything. Stopping panic is about not creating it in the first place. That is the fundamental problem. The details are that the people out there who run the different sectors of our education system do not fully understand some of the issues that we are dealing with. I know the fair intent of the Bill, but if we do not bring those people with us and they are lost, there must be a regain somewhere with regard to this. That is what I wanted to see and what we wanted to see. We wanted to try to amend the Bill so that it could be acceptable to as many people as possible, on the understanding that you cannot please everybody. We cannot support the Bill at its Final Stage, but I will say this: we do support the integrated education sector.”
“Just a minute. <BR /> <BR />— the dramas that we are having now.”