Doug Beattie
Upper Bann · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I absolutely accept what the Minister said earlier, which is that she would not have been able to get such a Bill out of the Executive. That is the sentence that you would have heard from me, Minister, had you waited a minute. I absolutely accept that that is the case, and I think that we all do.”
“Just a minute. Minister, I guess that I disagree with you, because I too did my work. I accept that I do not have the resources that you and your Department have, but I sat with the Public Prosecution Service and talked through this very thing, and it said that it was workable.”
“The Director of Public Prosecutions would look at the seriousness of the offence — death by dangerous driving, risk of harm to the public, serial arson, assault, sexual behaviour that is a danger to the public — and he would also look at the best interests of the child, because we have not got away from diversionary measures here.”
“Had James Bulger been murdered by two nine-year-olds, we would probably be having a discussion about the minimum age of criminal responsibility being nine, such was the anger in 1993 when that horrendous crime took place. All the ages are arbitrary, and we need to deal with that.”
“That raises the minimum age of criminal responsibility from 10 to 12. It is not what some people, who want it to be 14, want; it is not what others, who want it to stay at 10, want; but I believe that 12 is right. Why do I presume that a child can commit a criminal offence at 12 years of age?”
“In essence, however, that amendment would raise the minimum age of criminal responsibility from 10 to 14, apart from in the case of the offences in that closed list. It has been said many times, and I will not repeat what has been said, but the closed list does not make sense to me either.”
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“There is no question that there is public anger that our older people are being abused.”
“It asked questions about how we should look at punishments for those who abuse or are violent against older people.”
“I thank the Member for his question. Do you know what? I am not shocked any more. I am not shocked that this is going on or that people are just ignoring it or trying to shuffle it under the carpet, but I am really saddened by what goes on, the state of society and how older people are being abused. That is what it is: society is abusing our older people. Look at the older people who are being scammed out of the money that they have worked for. One in four of our older people is the victim of a scam, with around 10% of them losing up to £1,000 as a result. <BR /> <BR />A sentencing review ended, I think, last month. It might have been in January; I am not sure. Chapter 9 of that sentencing review consultation dealt with older people.”
“<BR /> <BR />If we need an example, we need look no further than Muckamore Abbey and what is going on there. It is truly shocking. The police have identified 1,500 crimes against older people on one ward alone. There were 50 reports of assault against older people between 2014 and 2017. We know that the investigation is ongoing, but those are shocking figures. If they are not a wake-up call, there is something really wrong with us in the House.”
“I understand fully, however, that it is a cross-departmental issue. <BR /> <BR />Here is the reality: 52% of older people fear being a victim of crime — 52%. In my council area, 45% fear becoming a victim of crime. I know that Jonny and Dolores will be shocked by that, and they will take steps, as will I. It is an incredible number. Here is where it gets even worse: 30% of older people fear abuse — intentional acts or a failure to act — by a caregiver or another person with whom they are in a relationship that involves an expectation of trust. What we are saying is that 30% of older people in our society are afraid of being a victim of a crime committed by a relative, trusted person or caregiver. There is something insidious about a society that has that level of fear among older people.”
“First, I congratulate the Member on her maiden speech. Those five minutes go past pretty quickly, but I look forward to hearing many more in the coming weeks and months. <BR /> <BR />I support the motion. Why would I not? If, as a society, we do not protect older people, we have serious questions to ask ourselves. I thank the Members who tabled the motion. It is the third motion on crime that we have debated in the past two days. I fully understand, because the point has been well made, that the perpetrators are often affected by socio-economic issues, such as poverty, mental health or drug and alcohol abuse. Some are victims themselves. I get all that, but I make absolutely no apology that I stand to champion the victim. That is what I want to do: I want to stand and champion the victim.”
“For those who do not wish to move away, we need to chase them and root them out. We need to bring every single thing available to get those people, to get the evidence and to get them into jail. When we put them in jail, we treat them like criminals. That is how we will deal with this.”
“If you do not do so, I go back to the very start, when I said, "You do this for profit. You do this for self-interest. You do this because you want to be seen as the big lad, in the pub with a pint, saying, 'I'm the brigadier'".”
“Thank you for the intervention. You are absolutely right, because the intelligence says that those prison officers were targeted from inside the prison and from inside that prison regime. That separated prison regime targeted two men for murder, and we allow it. It is time that we stopped appeasing them and stood shoulder to shoulder with our communities to say, "No more". <BR /> <BR />For those who want to make the transition, they need to do so. There should be no inducement: just do it. Move away from it and become something positive in your community. Just move away from it. If you are waiting for somebody to put their hand in their pocket and pull out a wallet and give you money, you have missed the point. It is time to end it for your community's sake, for your children's sake and for your family's sake.”
“If the Assembly had supported me, we would be halfway through that process, and that would have been the point at which we stopped putting in new admissions to the separated prison regime — but you did not. When the chips were down, you did not support it, and we are no further forward. I received abuse and threats, but I stood here and said that it needed to end, and it does need to end. <BR /> <BR />We are allowing ourselves and our society to be held hostage by the paramilitaries. The outworking of that is up in the Gallery, if you wish to look: the Ogle family. We should be supporting people like that, and there are many people like that around the country.”
“We seek evidence against them, make arrests, put them through the courts and, if found guilty, jail them. Then we allow drug dealers to classify themselves as politically motivated offenders. We put them in a separated prison regime, where they pick up their title of brigadier, and, when they get released, they bring it back into their communities. It is absolutely ridiculous that, on the outside of prisons, we say, "You're a criminal", but when we put them in prison, we say, "You're a brigadier". When they come out, with their self-importance, the cycle starts all over again. <BR /> <BR />The House will know that in 2016 I brought forward a motion to end separated prison regimes, for that very reason. My motion gave eight years to reduce and then end that separated regime.”
“They will be rooted out only if we — all of us in the Chamber — take stock of our actions and words and tell them that they are not acceptable. It is not enough for us to say that it is down to civic community to do that if we do not show leadership. <BR /> <BR />Of course, resourcing the police is going to help a lot. I hope that we do resource the police, because neighbourhood policing and ward constables are the way forward in order for people to link with a policeman that they know to help them get rid of the paramilitaries. <BR /> <BR />There must be other practical measures. Society is not balanced in the way we tackle paramilitaries. We try describing paramilitaries as nothing more than criminals or organised crime gangs, and I am in favour of doing that.”
“The Ogle family represents the reality for many people across working-class areas in Northern Ireland. People out there are still using paramilitary gangs to torment communities. The intimidation of the Ogle family started long before Ian was murdered. A year on from that, the family is still not allowed to grieve in peace. They are still the victims of intimidation and attempts to alienate them from their community. <BR /> <BR />I pay tribute to the Ogle family — Vera and Toni are in the Gallery — for their steadfastness and courage in seeking justice over the murder of Ian, partner of Vera and father of Toni. The perpetrators are loyalists who say they are protecting their community, but they are doing nothing more than damaging their community, and they must be rooted out.”
“Sinn Féin must distance itself from the IRA — past and present — and it must do so vigorously. There is no place for a political party that has a military wing; there is no place for a military wing that has a political party. <BR /> <BR />Unionism must also take a hard look at itself and ensure that it distances itself from loyalist paramilitaries. For far too long, active paramilitaries have torn their communities apart. Loyalist paramilitaries are responsible for extortion, intimidation, drug dealing and coercive control — self-styled brigadiers feeding off their communities. <BR /> <BR />Communities are living in fear of loyalist paramilitaries. In its worst excesses, it results in murder. The murder of Ian Ogle was utterly vile. It was perpetrated in a cowardly manner.”
“<BR /> <BR />We have a duty in this Assembly to show leadership in the tackling of paramilitarism, in word and in deed. We cannot shy away from it. I look to the Sinn Féin benches, and I know you do not want to hear it, but it is important that you do hear it, because your link with the IRA and the army council is destroying our society. Your argument that it does not exist just does not hold water. <BR /> <BR />The murder of Robert McCartney — that despicable, disgraceful crime — was met with a wall of silence, as was the murder of Paul Quinn in 2007, where the Sinn Féin MLA met the IRA to assure himself that they were not involved. But they were involved. Then he gave them cover by saying Paul Quinn was involved in criminality. After the violent death of that young lad, they besmirched his name. It is absolutely disgraceful.”
“The effects are the same, whether it is a gun, or a stick, or a bat, or a nail or a hammer, the results are exactly the same: ruined lives. <BR /> <BR />In 2016, the year we introduced the action plan on tackling paramilitarism, criminality and organised crime, there was a total of 85 attacks. The split between the trend for shooting and assaults remained pretty much the same, and this went up in 2018, before the latest statistics from 2019, where we now sit again at the 2016 figure of 85 violent paramilitary attacks — more than one a week. It is as if nothing has changed, even with the paramilitary task force, but we all in this House know that lots has changed because there is more to paramilitarism than just violent attacks.”
“I will be supporting the SDLP's amendment because it adds value to the motion, and anything that adds value is positive. <BR /> <BR />Paramilitarism is a scourge on our society and on all our communities. Those involved in paramilitarism are self-serving individuals who are involved for profit, for self-proclaimed status, to control the working class with violence distilled through fear and for the promotion of a separated society that creates a sense of distrust of the other community. When I say paramilitary groups, I mean the UVF, I mean the UDA, I mean the INLA, I mean RAAD, I mean PIRA, CIRA, RIRA and all others shades of paramilitary terrorist groups. There can be no difference. <BR /> <BR />In 2010, 12 years after the Belfast Agreement, we still had 94 violent paramilitary crimes: that was 37 shootings and 57 assaults.”
“I could go on. I guess the point is well made there. We need to look at victims as much as we look at perpetrators. Deal with the perpetrators, but let us not forget about the victims.”
“We have a Victims' Commissioner for Troubles crimes. We may well need a victims' commissioner for domestic abuse; I would have no problem with that. What about all the other victims? What about those victims of crime who need somebody to stand up for them and link between the different Departments that we all agree should be working together? There is merit in it, and there needs to be a bigger debate about it. <BR /> <BR />I spoke to the family and asked, "What would a commissioner have done for you?". "They would have been a voice for the victims. The justice system works only when it delivers justice for both victim and offender, and justice for victims means their voices being heard". It is hard to argue with that.”
“They have been fighting against the Department of Health and the Department of Justice to get help to deal with the seriously flawed serious adverse incident report. That process has cost them their own mental health, and they have not had the necessary support. We are traumatising victims as they fight to get justice, as they fight for support and as they fight to understand why they are victims in the first place. <BR /> <BR />So, yes, we have to deal with the causes of mental health problems, but when it all goes wrong, we have to deal with the victims. I raised the issue with the Minister of Justice at the Justice Committee, and she gave a very good and fair answer, but I still wonder whether there needs to be a wider debate on whether there should be an overarching victims of crime commissioner.”
“Domestic abuse does not sit alone. Violent crimes against the vulnerable, particularly the elderly, are increasing. As Dolores said, we are discussing that tomorrow, so I will not go into it in any great depth. I reflect back to the causes of violent crime, one of which is mental health. Mental health is a huge issue: if we have a problem with domestic violence being at epidemic levels, the same applies to mental health. We need a comprehensive mental health strategy that victims can feed into. <BR /> <BR />I am working with the family of Mr and Mrs Cawdery, who were murdered in 2017. The family have been fighting for justice for their relatives. They have had to fight through pretty horrific circumstances and have not had the support that they need.”
“In fact, in a recent survey, 20% of people thought that men who were victims of domestic abuse deserved it.”
“I think that everybody is agreed that this is an issue for all Departments; not just Justice, but Health, Communities and Infrastructure. It affects absolutely everybody. <BR /> <BR />There has been lots of debate about domestic abuse. I listened intently to some of it, including to the Chair of the Justice Committee when he gave horrific statistics on the amount of domestic abuse in the last 12 months. I would add that 27% of children in a violent home have been physically abused. I say that today as pretty horrific news comes out of Larne about a terrible incident. It is something that we have to address. Of course, please do not forget about men; in the statistics for domestic abuse, one in nine victims are men. Men are less likely to come forward and say that they are victims of domestic abuse.”
“I support the SDLP motion. We will support both amendments as well, because both add value to the motion. Anything that adds value to the motion is a good thing. I think that we are all agreed that what we are trying to do is set something in motion to help to deal with the problem of violent crime. <BR /> <BR />I reflect on the debate and all of the things that we are trying to look at: victims; punishment; rehabilitation; protection; separated communities; social isolation; vulnerability; alcohol and drug abuse; mental health; sentencing; public confidence; accountability; and victims. Victims: sometimes, with everything that we do, we forget about the victims. Yes, we want to stop having victims, but we will have victims, and we need to think about them. I will address that in a little while.”
“Minister, as you know, many of the innocent victims and survivors suffer psychological injury. Some of them have been told that they will not be eligible for the scheme because they were not present when their loved one was murdered. Will you engage with the Victims and Survivors Service to clarify that and ensure that the information that it is giving out does not meet that?”
“Given that Westminster has just brought in legislation to fill a gap in terrorist laws, can the Minister outline the engagement that her Department had with the Northern Ireland Office on the Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of Early Release) Bill that saw Northern Ireland omitted from the Bill?”
“Given that the funding for the action plan on tackling paramilitarism, organised crime and criminality is due to end at the end of the 2020 financial year, will the deputy First Minister outline what discussions she has had with the Finance Minister about that plan and the funding for it carrying on?”
“The Minister will be well aware that the assessment centre in Craigavon Area Hospital in my constituency has featured heavily in that consultation. He will also be aware that I, along with the fantastic charity Knitted Knockers, which makes handmade breast prosthetics for women who have had mastectomies and breast operations, have asked to meet him. Will he facilitate that meeting with me and the charity?”
“Therefore, what action is the Minister going to take to fix the Government-sponsored vandalism of Knock Iveagh so that the ratepayers of Armagh, Banbridge and Craigavon are not left out of pocket due to her Department's failures?”
“Thank you, Minister, for a comprehensive answer. I ask you to please bear with me on this one. Knock Iveagh is a regionally important prehistoric burial site just outside Rathfriland that dates back to 3500 BC. It was later used as an inauguration site for early medieval Irish kings and is scheduled for protection under the Historic Monuments and Archaeological Objects Order 1995. <BR /> <BR />Since 2013, the historic environment division, which is one of yours, has failed to protect this site, allowing significant development to take place. If it were not for the Friends of Knock Iveagh, our heritage on that site would now be destroyed.”
“Given the First Minister's freshly articulated concerns about legacy proposals in the Stormont House Agreement, was she as surprised as the Ulster Unionist Party was when they were contained in the deal?”
“I have got to agree, and I think that any sensible-minded person has got to agree. If you do not want the light of scrutiny shone into the corners of the work that you do, you have clearly got something to hide. I certainly have nothing to hide, and I do not think that any of us in public office should be hiding anything that we do. <BR /> <BR />I will finish by asking how this Executive, which have been damned in the eyes of the public, can argue against scrutiny and transparency? It is a simple process to have the commissioner look at all aspects of the Assembly, including Ministers, and it can do nothing but help us in the eyes of a public who do not view us in a good light at this time. I absolutely support the motion.”
“There are certainly concerns about existing mechanisms to enforce the ministerial code, and we have seen Freedom of Information Act requests ignored; late ministerial statements so that they cannot be scrutinised before they are delivered on the Floor; Members' questions for written answer not answered or not answered on time; and, of course, the issue in regard to RHI and other scandals prior to my coming to the Assembly. <BR /> <BR />Given the state of politics in Northern Ireland today, given how people view us at the minute, and in light of scandal after scandal, surely we should all be supporting measures to improve the credibility of our Ministers. What harm would it do to permit the Assembly Commissioner for Standards to investigate alleged breaches of the ministerial code of conduct? It cannot but help. It must help.”
“We must be held to account. Every one of us must be held to account, so we need more standards. It is clear that Ministers are bound by the Nolan principles. Do not worry, I am not going to ask anybody what the Nolan principles are. I had to write them down just to remind myself. Sometimes, those principles have to be tested. <BR /> <BR />If the Assembly commissioner can investigate Members of the Assembly, it seems only reasonable that a similar investigation process should be in place to hold Ministers to account.”
“I apologise to Mr Agnew for stepping out when he proposed the motion. I had a bit of a cough. <BR /> <BR />I support the motion. I support not just the words of the motion but the words of its proposer. We need transparency in government at all levels. I will keep my remarks reasonably brief, because I support the motion, but, as a member of the Standards and Privileges Committee, I have continually said that I believe in more standards and less privilege. All that we require is enough privilege to ensure that we can do our job effectively.”
“I thank the Member for her intervention. You are absolutely right, and you probably put that far better than I could have. I totally agree with you. <BR /> <BR />We stood here yesterday and condemned the attack on a police officer in north Belfast. We all condemned the attack and stood united, and I was happy to stand with everybody in the House to condemn that. Those responsible, if caught, should not get bail. If you believe that is the case, you must support the motion.”
“If he was a danger to children — if he was a paedophile — we would not think twice about not releasing him back into society. We would hold him until justice had dealt with him. I have to say that I view them as virtually one and the same. <BR /> <BR />We must review bail conditions in cases of murder or terrorist offences. Bail must be an exception. They must give the reason why they are going to give them bail. I ask everybody to think about how we need more stick than carrot sometimes here in Northern Ireland.”
“The motion asks that we address the safeguarding of our society. The moment we have a suspect in a terrorist case — we talked about terrorism at the very start — and release him on bail without strict bail conditions, we are putting society at risk. Suspect terrorists should remain in custody when the evidence supports the allegation or for as long as possible to allow the justice proceedings to be completed. For me, that makes absolute sense. If the evidence is there, keep him in jail and let justice run its course. <BR /> <BR />For those who say the speed of justice is far too slow in Northern Ireland, that is a completely different issue, and I ask the Justice Minister to look at and address that speed. But that does not counter the fact that we are releasing out into the country somebody who is potentially dangerous.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. You are absolutely right, and I said as much. The police have questions to answer because it is an embarrassing failure for the PSNI not to have noticed that that individual had absconded and that they had not seen him for over five weeks. You are absolutely right. I do not think that any of us should shirk from pointing the finger at the police and saying, "You must have a look at your structures". I am certainly in favour of that.”
“The PSNI has questions to answer. Why did it take them so long to realise that a suspect in a murder who was on bail had done a runner and that they had not seen him since 18 November? They did not realise until 23 December. It is embarrassing to say the least, and the PSNI needs to look at its structures. <BR /> <BR />Our justice system must realise as well that, if it disregards what the PSNI is saying to it, it undermines the duty of the state to protect those living in it. What do I mean by that? If the PSNI opposes a terrorist suspect going on bail and the justice system says, "Nah, not listening to you. We are sending him on bail", then it is undermining the PSNI and undermining the state. <BR /> <BR />Detective Chief Superintendent Murray said only this month:”
“I will do it because it is important to me. You have to contrast those two examples that I have just given you with that of a 75-year-old veteran who has been investigated twice already. He has now been charged and, at 75, has been classed as a flight risk and has not been allowed to vary his bail conditions. You can see that there is a perception to many that our impartial justice system needs rebalanced. <BR /> <BR />The Chief Constable is under pressure on many fronts. He and his force are doing a sterling and fantastic job, but they are concerned about the imposition of bail conditions. The Chief Constable said so yesterday. Their job is to gather evidence and present the evidence, and it is for the justice system to take the lead thereafter. If the justice system allows bail, it is up to the PSNI to impose those bail conditions.”
“Recently, we have seen a case of a suspect from Lurgan — a suspect — who was possibly involved in a terrorist offence, being given leave this year to go on holiday to Spain. A suspect in the murder of prison officer Black — I fully accept what you said, Mr Speaker — due to face court this year has had his bail conditions varied and his electronic tag removed. He previously had to report seven days a week but that has been reduced to just five days a week. Last year, he was given leave to change his bail so that he could go on a three-day spa holiday. That same individual has now not been seen since 18 November, and I will touch on that slightly later. Can you imagine how the Black family feels at this moment in time? Completely let down by the justice system. I will put this in unashamedly and I mentioned it yesterday.”
“It is the worst of crimes because it undermines the state. It attempts to promote a cause — any cause — through terror. It must be stopped, and it must be seen to be stopped. Therefore, we must have robust structures for dealing with those linked to terrorism or, indeed, those charged with terrorist offences, including strict bail conditions or stopping bail if we believe somebody is involved in terrorism. We need our independent and impartial justice system to have a look at its processes.”
“I will attempt to keep in lane, keep my lurgy inside and not cough over the Justice Minister, who might want to stay back. <BR /> <BR />Northern Ireland has been scourged by terrorism for far too long. Yes, it has diminished since 1998, and we had a good debate on the Belfast Agreement yesterday, but it is still here. It is beginning to feel like part of the fabric of this country, and that is extremely sad. We have, of course, tried to minimise the effects of terrorism and have changed the words: we use the terms "paramilitary activity" or "dissidents", but it is terrorism and they are terrorists. They terrorise all our communities, and west Belfast has suffered far more than most. They force their will on others through threats of violence, and they shoot, maim and kill our elderly, our children — anybody in society.”
“— people throwing things in our face by saying, "Every word of Irish spoken is like another bullet fired in the struggle for Irish freedom". That does not help; it is a bad statement. I support the motion. I support dialogue; we need dialogue.”
“The power is with the people, not with this Chamber. Let us be clear: my identity is represented by the Union flag, 'God Save the Queen', the Twelfth of July, Ulster Scots and the monarchy; it is also represented by the shamrock, St Patrick's Day, the GAA, Irish dancing and the Irish language. They are all part of me. <BR /> <BR />Before I run the length of myself, I have to say to everybody that it is all about the language that we use and how we have to be careful of it. People would be far happier embracing, talking or having a conversation about the Irish language if we did not have —”
“No, I will not. Sorry. <BR /> <BR />We want to work with willing partners. We want to show respect to all who live in Northern Ireland and their identity, culture and traditions. Many people raise their eyes when I say that I am Irish. I am Irish. If it is comfortable for you, prefix that with "Northern" if you want. I am also a proud Ulsterman, and I am a fiercely proud Brit. However, I am Irish. The Belfast Agreement allows me to say that. It allows the people to decide that Northern Ireland will remain part of the United Kingdom.”
“Thank you. <BR /> <BR />To answer your question, Alex: absolutely. Hopefully, you will understand that my blood and thunder might diminish slightly in a moment or two. <BR /> <BR />It is clear to me that the political parties presently in control of our Executive, and, therefore, our country, do not know how to govern. They do not understand that mutual respect and equality was at the heart of the Belfast Agreement. As we have heard today, they work together because they have to, not because they want to. That lets down the Belfast Agreement; you have to be in there and want to govern. We want to be the largest unionist party. We want to work with the willing —”
“Not just yet. <BR /> <BR />As honest and as open as that was, I would have stopped short of thanking him, especially when former soldiers are in the dock and dissidents are having their bail terms changed. We have a 75-year-old veteran being classed as a flight risk. It is unbalanced and unfair. I will give way.”
“One party openly supports dissident special treatment, while another party in the Executive does not have the courage to end it. What would he have said if he had heard a unionist politician thanking a former terrorist for not killing us any more?”