Doug Beattie
Upper Bann · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I absolutely accept what the Minister said earlier, which is that she would not have been able to get such a Bill out of the Executive. That is the sentence that you would have heard from me, Minister, had you waited a minute. I absolutely accept that that is the case, and I think that we all do.”
“Just a minute. Minister, I guess that I disagree with you, because I too did my work. I accept that I do not have the resources that you and your Department have, but I sat with the Public Prosecution Service and talked through this very thing, and it said that it was workable.”
“The Director of Public Prosecutions would look at the seriousness of the offence — death by dangerous driving, risk of harm to the public, serial arson, assault, sexual behaviour that is a danger to the public — and he would also look at the best interests of the child, because we have not got away from diversionary measures here.”
“Had James Bulger been murdered by two nine-year-olds, we would probably be having a discussion about the minimum age of criminal responsibility being nine, such was the anger in 1993 when that horrendous crime took place. All the ages are arbitrary, and we need to deal with that.”
“That raises the minimum age of criminal responsibility from 10 to 12. It is not what some people, who want it to be 14, want; it is not what others, who want it to stay at 10, want; but I believe that 12 is right. Why do I presume that a child can commit a criminal offence at 12 years of age?”
“In essence, however, that amendment would raise the minimum age of criminal responsibility from 10 to 14, apart from in the case of the offences in that closed list. It has been said many times, and I will not repeat what has been said, but the closed list does not make sense to me either.”
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“Jean McConville, who was abducted and then murdered in the Irish Republic, has had no article 2 investigation. Robert Nairac was abducted and tortured: no article 2 investigation. I could go on an awful lot more. <BR /> <BR />There is a concern, because Kieran Conway and Michael Hayes admitted involvement in and knowledge of the Birmingham bombing, which killed 21 people and injured over 200 more, and they have not even been questioned by an Garda Síochána. An Garda Síochána did not interview Father Patrick Ryan, who admitted involvement in multiple explosions, including in Brighton and Hyde Park. He was never even interviewed by an Garda Síochána. Kingsmills certainly did not get the open and transparent cooperation from the Irish Government that was promised.”
“I will just remind people that this is a debate about the Irish Government's role in legacy; that is why we are focusing on the Irish Government's role. We debated our motion on that in March of this year, and not a single Member in the House disagreed. That motion passed without issue, having been amended by the DUP, but, for some reason, we seem to have gone off at a tangent. <BR /> <BR />James Elliott was kidnapped close to the border in 1972, taken into the Irish Republic, tortured and murdered. His body was then booby-trapped and dumped on the border two days later. Two individuals were charged, not with his murder but with possessing explosives. There was no article 2 investigation by the Irish Government into James Elliott's murder. Why not? The UK has now initiated an article 2 inquest, and hopefully that will start again.”
“I am in no doubt that the Minister will include that in the sentencing Bill. <BR /> <BR />The thrust of where I am is that I absolutely support the motion and think that the DUP's amendment adds a bit to it, because we have to look at where we are in the here and now. Yes, the Minister will introduce a sentencing Bill, and I look forward to seeing it. However, I have not seen the text. It is hard to support something until you see it, unfortunately. I would like to see it. We need to do something, and we need to do it now. We cannot sit on our hands and wait until the sentencing Bill is introduced. We need to start acting now, and that is why I will support the motion.”
“Thank you. If we were to sit here and go through sentencing criteria and out-of-court disposals, it would take an awful lot of time. It is complicated, and it cannot be done as a snapshot here. However, the point remains that it takes us far too long to get people through the courts at the other end. They do that quickly in England and Wales, and we take far too long here. Some of our sentences are pretty pitiful and do not act as a deterrent. We could deal with it if you sped it up, had momentum and had a sentence that matched the crime, and some of the crimes are awful and involve the most terrible violence. I support the call in the DUP's amendment for an:”
“<BR /> <BR />In many ways, I look at the issues facing the Minister and see that the Justice Department has been incredibly underfunded. It is a good and fair argument that the Minister makes about that, but we will have to deal with what we have now as we speak. It takes far too long to gather evidence and put individuals through the courts, and momentum is lost. We have seen that, in England and Wales, it can be done in weeks. Here we take months and years.”
“In the meantime, we need to use what is available to us through the Criminal Justice (Northern Ireland) Order 2004 and the Justice Act (Northern Ireland) 2011 to deal with hate crimes. That requires joined-up thinking, which, at times, we are lacking in. Our Criminal Justice Board, which is a high-level board, consists of the Minister, the Chief Constable, the Director of Public Prosecutions, the director general of the Northern Ireland Prison Service, the Lady Chief Justice and many others. It is a high-level board, yet it has no shared vision and no strategic priorities. Hopefully, that will change in the next month or so. That is a big piece of work, and I hope that some of those strategic priorities will deal with hate crime and those who perpetuate it. However, right now, we are failing.”
“We are good in Northern Ireland at creating strategies and frameworks. If creating strategies and frameworks were an Olympic sport, we would be gold medallists every time. We need a strategy, however, to look at this matter. I mentioned that personal piece at the start of my contribution because I was lucky enough to be immersed in other cultures and religions not just in conflict areas but elsewhere. Many people in Northern Ireland do not get a chance to do that, because we are divided and segregated. <BR /> <BR />I look forward to seeing the sentencing Bill in the autumn and the victims and witnesses Bill in spring next year. They will be incredibly important.”
“Hate can lead to violence. Hate can lead to murder, and we have seen that. We need to deal with hate, and, on balance and in truth, the motion raises that point well. We do not have many issues with the motion.”
“In many cases, hate is perpetuated by ideals that conflict with others'. That is not an issue. People hate me because of my background. They hate my colleague because of his background. That is not an issue. You are allowed to do that. It is, however, an issue when you stir up racial and religious tensions, when hate spills into violence and when hate is used as a platform to dehumanise, isolate and intimidate others.”
“One of the bravest and noblest men whom I have ever known was an Afghan Muslim whose name was Sher-Wali. He died fighting alongside me in Afghanistan. Why do I mention that? It is because I have been immersed in other cultures and religions. It is only when you do that that you get to understand better the people with whom you share this place. Racism and sectarianism is pure hate based on bigotry, prejudice and lack of understanding. It is hate due to someone's religion; hate due to someone's skin colour, culture or community; hate due to someone's opinion; or hate due to someone's job. <BR /> <BR />In Northern Ireland, we are not unique in dealing with hate crimes, nor are we unique in that on this island, in the British Isles or in wider Europe. It is a global issue that is increasing exponentially, and it will be dealt with.”
“Thank you for the answer. I am slightly concerned now. I would have imagined that, given that you, the deputy First Minister and the Executive Office created the victims and survivors strategy 2024-2034, you would have had sight of what the legislation will state and, therefore, would have been able to say, "This whole process" — I am talking about process, not legislation — "is victim- and survivor-centred".”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Another issue is that of legal authority. We are giving legal authority to burn bonfires. I wonder how that plays with the new Climate Change Act. We have moved on since FICT, and that is a reality.”
“It really is, because it has not gone into any details apart from the FICT Commission. If you look at the recommendations from the FICT Commission, you will see that there is an awful lot to it. The first is to make them all legal, and that is legal authority. It is difficult to support such a vague motion. I believe in a conversation, but let us make sure that it is from the ground up, from the communities to us, and not just us dictating.”
“I think that I am giving a mature view. I am giving the practicalities of where we are on this. <BR /> <BR />I was a bonfire builder in my youth. I do not support flags being burnt on bonfires. I do not support images or posters being burnt on bonfires. I do not support effigies, apart from historical, traditional effigies, being burnt on bonfires. That is a fact. In most cases, bonfires and bonfire builders have addressed that, but the solution is not top-down legislation and regulation. It is bottom-up, community-level activism. Believe it or not, that is working, and you can go back and look at the statistics and see that it is working. If we pass this motion, an awful lot of Ministers will have an awful lot of work to do, because I will make sure that they are held to this. I will be honest: the motion is as vague as I have ever seen.”
“A couple of Members have asked me to give way. I will give way if you are brief.”
“Just a moment. <BR /> <BR />If it is recommending legal authority for bonfires as a starting position, there are a number of criteria, as per the FICT recommendations, that each bonfire will have to adhere to, including the height and distance ratio of 1:5. That is when the Northern Ireland Fire and Rescue Service will engage to check whether there is a ratio of 1:5. What if there is a ratio of 1:4? What if it does not adhere to the criteria? Who is responsible? Is it the police, DAERA or the Executive? We need to know, because that is who we will be going to. Or is it a criminal justice issue? If it is, I will go to the Justice Minister to find out what she is going to do.”
“I have not got time, mate. Honestly, I just stopped a minute ago, and I have only got a couple of minutes. <BR /> <BR />Will Sinn Féin be calling on the Northern Ireland Executive to develop a new funded, civic-accredited arts and heritage, education, training and exhibition initiative in dedicated spaces for bonfires, as per the FICT recommendations? If it does, I will go to the Finance Minister to ask when he will provide the money for that. I hope that, in summing up, Sinn Féin can clarify what it is actually trying to achieve with the motion.”
“If Sinn Féin is calling for article 10 of the Recreation and Youth Service (Northern Ireland) Order 1986 to be extended to other landowners — that is what it says in the recommendations — so that other landowners can identify land for people to build bonfires on, I will go to the First Minister to ask when that will happen.”
“It absolutely does, and my colleague will raise that later on, if that is OK. <BR /> <BR />I am trying to get to the point of what Sinn Féin is actually calling for. Is it calling for legal authority for all bonfires? If so, that is what FICT recommends. FICT recommends that every bonfire be given legal authority. That is the starting point. If Sinn Féin is saying that it will give this legal authority, it is up to the AERA Minister to change the Waste and Contaminated Land (Northern Ireland) Order 1997 to allow bonfires to be lawful. If that is what we do, the first thing that I will do is press the AERA Minister about when he is will do it to make it lawful.”
“Absolutely. An unguarded fire anywhere, whether a bonfire or a campfire, is exactly that.”
“It has been said — this is true, and the situation has improved over the years — that the vast majority of bonfires in Northern Ireland pass off safely and are well-run community events. The commission has highlighted that on multiple occasions, and yet — here comes a stark truth — every bonfire in Northern Ireland is unlawful. It does not matter how long they have been happening for and, as we have said, some of them have been going for an awfully long time. Every single one of them is unlawful. The Fire and Rescue Service cannot engage directly with bonfire builders because they would be engaging directly with something unlawful. It is important to understand that. <BR /> <BR />What is Sinn Féin actually —?”
“I have the dubious honour of having been on the FICT commission for three years. It was a good commission. It had good people on it, from across the political spectrum and across the divide, who came up with some really good ideas. Yes, many of those ideas have not been implemented, but they have been spoken about. <BR /> <BR />The FICT commission covered an awful lot more than flags and bonfires, by the way. Sometimes, I think that we ignore other things that it covered because they do not work for us. It covered culture, identity, bonfires, flags on public buildings and street furniture, media, sport, language, arts in public spaces, murals, memorialisation and commemoration. Some political parties dodged that question pretty quickly. <BR /> <BR />Let us look at bonfires, however.”
“The Minister is absolutely right: pre-release testing is incredibly important. I have no issue with that; it just needs to be tightened up. However, I have to say that, when it goes wrong, it goes really wrong, as we have seen with Jim McFadden's family, who have been treated absolutely appallingly and who have been kept in the dark for the past 10 months about their dad's murderer, James Meehan. Given the fiasco around that, would it not be fair for the Minister to meet the family, listen to their anguish and their story and apologise to them in person for the absolutely chaotic way that we have dealt with that?”
“It is harder, however, to put balance into something and to turn around and say, "No, Hamas: you are a terrorist organisation, and what you did on 7 October" — what Hamas did then did not start the wider conflict, and I am not saying that it did, but it did start the present round of conflict — "was wrong. The rape, torture and murder was wrong". It is harder to go for balance, but that is all our amendment does: it provides balance. <BR /> <BR />I ask Members to look at our amendment. It has all the ingredients that are in the motion, and the only difference is that we ask people to understand that Hamas is not an innocent bystander to what is happening in the Middle East.”
“<BR /> <BR />A fact that I know to be true is that, when conflicts start, innocent people pay the price — innocent Palestinian men, women and children and innocent Israeli men, women and children. That will not end until the conflict and its causes end. That requires negotiation and a two-state solution, as laid out in the Oslo agreement. <BR /> <BR />It is pretty easy to support the Sinn Féin motion. It is uncontroversial. I will support it. All the right ingredients are in there, so I can support it, and I will get pats on the back when we go out of here.”
“It gives very little, and what it gives is mostly for the F-35 global project. Do you know who arms the Israelis? The United States. Guess how it does it: through Shannon Airport. Thousands of tons of equipment and thousands of military personnel go through Shannon Airport on the way to the Middle East and North Africa (MENA). That is where they go. I hear not a single chirp about that, and we should hear about it. If people really want to have an impact from here in the West on what is happening there, do you know what they need to do? Get themselves down to Shannon Airport, stick a placard up and stand there, because that is where they will get an impact.”
“The human rights abuses of its own people, including minority groups, go unchecked, and it indoctrinates children into violence, fails to protect women and girls from gender-based violence, supports the marriage of girls under the age of 15 and supports violence within the family. Hamas is also stealing humanitarian aid and selling it on the black market. Sometimes, when we have such debates, we find ourselves thinking that Hamas has nothing whatever to do with what has happened in the region, but it absolutely does. We need to have balance. That is not an excuse, one way or the other, but it is a balance. <BR /> <BR />I hear an awful lot of rhetoric, which is anti-British in many ways, that tries to make out that the UK is arming the Israelis. The truth is that the United Kingdom is not.”
“<BR /> <BR />Have the Israeli Government breached those principles? Yes, they have. Has Hamas breached them? Yes, it has. Yet, nowhere in the motion or in any of the motions that we have had on Gaza has there been criticism of Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organisation that is linked to Hezbollah and the Houthis and controlled by the Iranian terror network and an Iranian Government who stood in China with the Chinese, Russian and North Korean heads of state. Hamas applauded, just yesterday, the murder of six Israelis — applauded it. It initiated the present round of conflicts with the appalling actions of 7 October 2023 and said that it would do it again and again.”
“Torture should never be used as a weapon of war. Hostage-taking, terrorism and indiscriminate targeting of civilians should not be used as weapons of war. <BR /> <BR />A lot of what I have just said is in the Sinn Féin motion. I have said nothing that is really outside of it, but Sinn Féin forgets to mention Hamas and what it has to do with the conflict. In our amendment, we have tried to add a bit of balance yet again — nothing more. This might surprise everybody, but, regardless of whether you are a terrorist organisation with a political party heading you up or you are a standing military, you are bound by humanitarian laws in conflict: necessity, humanity, proportionality and distinction. Hamas, the Israelis and the Palestinian West Bank state are all bound and governed by those laws.”
“There should be an immediate ceasefire and a return to the negotiations. Humanitarian aid should be allowed into Gaza unrestricted, and the United Nations should take over control of that operation. There should be an immediate release without preconditions of all the hostages, even those who are already dead. Their families want their bodies back. The UN should establish a conflict-monitoring force such as we have here in Europe in the form of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE). We support the Oslo agreement and want to see a two-state solution. That is where we have always been. That has not changed. I am just reiterating that position. <BR /> <BR />Let me be clear, however: starvation should never be used as a weapon of war. Rape should never be used as a weapon of war.”
“Thank you, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. My contribution will be quite short, because we have debated the issue long and hard, and all political parties have laid out their stall on it. It may make people feel a little more comfortable if they are able to talk about the matter, but, in reality, it does absolutely nothing for the people in the region, who continue to suffer. <BR /> <BR />I have to correct something, however: the flotilla was not bombed. Somebody fired a ship's flare that went off on the deck, but that does not matter; it is no issue. <BR /> <BR />I will reiterate the Ulster Unionist Party's position on what is happening in Gaza: we affirm that all life, be that Palestinian or Israeli, is of equal value and must be protected under international law. The party rejects any form of collective punishment.”
“That answer was really interesting and, in many ways, answers my question. It is the type of question that allows us to bounce around constituency areas, as the Minister well knows. I have written to him about Portadown Integrated Nursery and Primary School, which has already jumped through all of the hoops that it needs to jump through and is waiting for the land to be purchased for its rebuild. Is the Minister able to give us a timeline on any progress for that school?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. I am genuinely concerned about our historical heritage. In my constituency, the Waringstown grange and rath and the Ballintaggart court tomb, which was nearly 2,000 years old, were both ripped up. Of course, I have raised in the House many times the issue of Knock Iveagh, where a wind turbine sits on top of a 2,000-year-old burial ground. When is the HED going to use its statutory powers of enforcement to get that wind turbine off that historical site?”
“You are saying exactly what our amendment is saying, so you are absolutely right. I totally agree with you, but the motion is a one-sided motion.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I do not disagree with an awful lot of what you have said; in fact, what you have said is in our amendment. What is key is that we believe that every life, Israeli or Palestinian, is equal, and the motion does not say that. Will you join Sinn Féin and the SDLP in voting for a motion that says that the life of an Israeli child is worth less than that of a Palestinian child?”
“I thank the Member for his intervention, but he has absolutely no understanding of his point. They are in a country that is surrounded by the likes of Iran and Syria, along with Hezbollah and Hamas, and being bombed by the Houthis. Seriously, you should think it through. Balance, guys. <BR /> <BR />It might be easy to support the Sinn Féin motion because that is the popular thing to do, but read it carefully. Compare it with the Ulster Unionist Party amendment, and you will see clearly who has laid out the issue at hand and who has the right approach to a difficult conflict, ensuring that the lives of a Palestinian and an Israeli are of equal measure. That is not what the motion gives us.”
“One moment. <BR /> <BR />Wearing a shemagh cannot be the sum of support for a people in a desperate situation or a region overcome by violence. Instead, let us double down on our efforts to get a long-lasting, sustainable ceasefire, ensure that humanitarian aid corridors are set up and work and use diplomatic means to move towards a lasting peace where Israeli and Palestinian can live side by side and the malign influence of Iran no longer has a grip on them.”
“I thank the Member for raising that point. <BR /> <BR />Here is where I come from in all this: balance. Let us have some balance. Why is it OK for an Israeli child to die but not OK for a Palestinian child or vice versa? Let us get balance. There is no balance in the motion. We need to be better than this. We cannot be led by TikTok or Instagram. Getting a photo wearing a shemagh — for those who do not know, it is that scarf that they wear around their neck — .”
“That does not seem to be in the motion either. The Ulster Unionist Party believes that Israel has a right to defend itself, and the minimal military equipment that is supplied by the UK is mostly for defensive purposes in the form of radar and early warning component parts. Why does Israel need that radar? It needs it because it is under continuous attack. <BR /> <BR />We can clearly agree on some issues, and I have outlined them. The Sinn Féin motion, however, is based on support for terrorism, not the stabilisation of the region. It refuses to criticise, even in the most basic terms, the actions of Hamas. It shows a level of bias that undermines the real issues facing the region. It is the self-righteous, self-interested virtue signalling of some who see Palestine solidarity purely as a Twitter graphic for likes.”
“to promote genuine dialogue, putting Israeli and Palestinian aspirations front and centre. We do not support a hierarchy of aspiration or victim. Taking a side in a long and complicated conflict is simply counterproductive. <BR /> <BR />Sinn Féin calls for the UK to recognise Palestine while many surrounding countries believe that Israel does not have the right to exist. The Ulster Unionist Party calls for a two-state solution as envisaged by the Oslo agreement, with both states having a right to exist in peace and security, free from threats. <BR /> <BR />The Sinn Féin motion calls for an arms embargo on Israel, yet terrorist groups, supported by a heavily armed Iran, continue to arm themselves. Sinn Féin also fails to mention that four companies in the Irish Republic are supplying parts for munitions and technology to Israel.”
“with sustained and continuous aid, medical access and essential services. <BR /> <BR />The Sinn Féin motion welcomes a recent decision by third-level institutions such as Queen's University Belfast and Trinity College Dublin to "divest from Israeli investments"; a key privilege tool that will help the starving children of Gaza. Really? We need to get a grip. Those institutions do that while Irish airspace and Shannon Airport are being used to move hundreds of thousands of US troops, equipment, arms and munitions into the Middle East and north Africa, and they turn a blind eye to it. The Occupied Territories Bill in the South, the enactment of which Sinn Féin is calling for, will fix that, no? No, it will not; it will continue. <BR /> <BR />The Ulster Unionist Party's amendment calls for:”
“Yes, but they got the likes on YouTube. That is what really matters. The flotilla was about the participants promoting themselves on social media. It was shameful narcissism, making the suffering of Gazans all about them. <BR /> <BR />The Ulster Unionist Party's amendment, on the other hand, calls for a rejection of "any form of collective punishment"; again rails against:”
“Sinn Féin's motion commends a media stunt: the Madleen Freedom Flotilla. That flotilla contained no aid of any substantial use to Gazans. It was used to boost egos.”
“by using terrorist organisations such as Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis and Iraqi militias to attack Israel, its people and its interests, as well as Western organisations, through global terrorism.”
“Sinn Féin condemns Israel for all its actions while deliberately stepping over the role of Hamas and its brutal control of the Palestinian people; its arbitrary detention of its citizens, including 17 journalists and six human rights activists; its torture and isolation of minority groups; its extrajudicial executions; its indoctrination of children; and its failure to protect women and girls from gender-based violence while supporting the marriage of girls under the age of 15. Hamas also supports violence in the home, giving husbands free rein to do whatever they want to do. <BR /> <BR />The Ulster Unionist Party amendment condemns Israel's actions of using hunger as a weapon of war, outlines its disproportionate military campaign in Gaza, which is not in keeping with international humanitarian law, the law of armed conflict or:”
“I wrote an extensive section for my contribution that highlighted Sinn Féin's support for global terrorism, including support for Libya's Colonel Gaddafi and Yasser Arafat of the PLO, and how it is that that drives Sinn Féin's bias in the region and its ideology. I decided against including it, however. I instead decided that I would scrutinise the motion against our amendment. <BR /> <BR />Sinn Féin outlines the genuine suffering of the Palestinian people, yet it ignores the documented rape, torture and murder of Israeli citizens. The Ulster Unionist Party amendment affirms that all life, be it Palestinian or Israeli:”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. What is happening in the Middle East is a tragedy, as are other conflicts right across the globe, many of which receive little or no recognition. Thousands of people are being killed and injured right across the Middle East. Families are being separated and displaced. There is forced hunger and a lack of basic services. <BR /> <BR />Trying to condense this debate into a slogan, strapline or social media clip just to promote a political stance is to use the suffering of those very same people for selfish purposes.”
“Minister, I welcome what you have just said, but it does not take Magistrates' Court sentencing into account. Can the scheme be extended in any way to take in the Magistrates' Court? We are seeing similar sentences when cases are referred to there.”
“I welcome that the Minister is bringing forward a sentencing Bill, and I hope to be able to feed into that, but if a sentencing council is not part of that sentencing Bill, the Ulster Unionist Party will propose an amendment to make sure that it is.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I will finish off by talking about the Sentencing Council for England and Wales. If you go on to the website, you see that it is extremely clear on how sentences are arrived at. The judge gives a judgement in terms that can be understood by everybody and breaks it down. If you are in any doubt whatsoever, listen to the sentencing of Axel Rudakubana for the murder of those three wee girls. While we may not have liked the fact that he did not get a whole-life sentence, the judge laid it out so that we understood why he did not get a whole-life sentence. I know that the Lady Chief Justice does not agree with our position on a sentencing council. She says that we are well served with what we have, but I do not think that we are, and large swathes of society do not think that we are.”