Doug Beattie
Upper Bann · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I absolutely accept what the Minister said earlier, which is that she would not have been able to get such a Bill out of the Executive. That is the sentence that you would have heard from me, Minister, had you waited a minute. I absolutely accept that that is the case, and I think that we all do.”
“Just a minute. Minister, I guess that I disagree with you, because I too did my work. I accept that I do not have the resources that you and your Department have, but I sat with the Public Prosecution Service and talked through this very thing, and it said that it was workable.”
“The Director of Public Prosecutions would look at the seriousness of the offence — death by dangerous driving, risk of harm to the public, serial arson, assault, sexual behaviour that is a danger to the public — and he would also look at the best interests of the child, because we have not got away from diversionary measures here.”
“Had James Bulger been murdered by two nine-year-olds, we would probably be having a discussion about the minimum age of criminal responsibility being nine, such was the anger in 1993 when that horrendous crime took place. All the ages are arbitrary, and we need to deal with that.”
“That raises the minimum age of criminal responsibility from 10 to 12. It is not what some people, who want it to be 14, want; it is not what others, who want it to stay at 10, want; but I believe that 12 is right. Why do I presume that a child can commit a criminal offence at 12 years of age?”
“In essence, however, that amendment would raise the minimum age of criminal responsibility from 10 to 14, apart from in the case of the offences in that closed list. It has been said many times, and I will not repeat what has been said, but the closed list does not make sense to me either.”
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“If we had stopped and taken time to bring those stakeholders with us, I do not think that we would be having —”
“Yes, of course I accept it, and that is why we debate in a good manner and understand each other's points of view. However, I started that with a bit of commentary about how I was in the controlled sector and how it was naturally integrated. It just did not have the name "integrated sector". It was integrated schools that I went to. <BR /> <BR />This Bill has ended up as a poor Bill, and we have tried to engage with it at every single level. I thank the Bill sponsor for her engagement — she really has engaged — and my spokesperson on education, Robbie Butler, has done his best to try to make this work. However, it has not worked, and we have panic out there. The Bill is misunderstood, and we have not brought the stakeholders with us.”
“Just one minute. <BR /> <BR />What we have set here is genuine panic. It is not deliberate, but there is genuine panic in the maintained and controlled sectors. There is genuine panic among principals, teachers and parents, and we have set that panic going. I will give way.”
“It simply adds to the pitting of one sector against others. It is not a levelling-up. <BR /> <BR />We tried to make amendments to fix the problems that we saw in the Bill so that no one sector would be affected, but they were declined. Those amendments would have fixed an awful lot of the problems that we face. Moreover, the Bill sponsor has failed spectacularly to bring the stakeholders along with her. Clearly, the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools, the Controlled Schools' Support Council (CSSC), the Governing Bodies Association (GBA), the Catholic Schools' Trustee Service (CSTS) and the Transferor Representatives’ Council (TRC) are all opposed to it.”
“Absolutely. I do not disagree with that. That is a different point from mine. My point was that Portadown Technical College changed to Craigavon Senior High School, yet that change did not work. Sometimes, change does not work, and we have to reflect on it. That is probably where we are at, but you are absolutely right. <BR /> <BR />I was saying that the Ulster Unionist Party has supported a single education system since 1921, with a single curriculum, in which all our children are educated together, regardless of their religion or background. Do you know what we would call it? We would call it "education". That is what we wanted. I hope that the independent review of education will seriously look at that for the future, but the Bill that we are talking about does not do that. It does not create that.”
“<BR /> <BR />Mr Speaker, thank you for showing latitude by allowing me to go off on a slight tangent. My point is that sometimes change is good. Sometimes, however, change does not work, so we have to manage it and may have to change it again. As it stands, the Bill may need to be changed in the next mandate. <BR /> <BR />The Ulster Unionist Party has supported a single education system since 1921 —”
“Throughout my whole education in the controlled sector, I engaged with all people and all religions. The sector was integrated in all but name, and that is exactly what we should have had. <BR /> <BR />When I came back here and got into politics, I started looking at how we educate our people. It is great to see Diane and John here, who understand the Dickson plan. For those who do not, there is a bit of reading for them to do to try to understand what it is all about. <BR /> <BR />Portadown Technical College that I went to is now Craigavon Senior High School. It is split across two campuses, with one in Portadown and one in Lurgan. At the Lurgan campus, kids have to eat their packed lunch between parked cars, because there are no facilities for them. I have been hammering on for years and years about getting that fixed.”
“It is always great in these debates to reflect on one's own education and on how one was brought up. A lot of my education as a young man took place in England, Scotland and Wales, and it was integrated education in every facet. We had no idea what religion even was during my formative years. <BR /> <BR />When I came back to live in Northern Ireland, I went to Hart Memorial Primary School and Clounagh Junior High School, which are both in the controlled sector, and, again, there was genuine mixing. I never had a concern, and those were integrated schools in all but name. I then went to Portadown Technical College, as it was called then. I spent my last two years in education there. I was disenfranchised, and, when I stepped out of education, I left with no qualifications.”
“The Bill creates the offence of stalking and the offence of threatening or abusive behaviour and it embeds in our criminal justice system stalking protection orders. Regardless of all the words that have been said and of how we articulate what we want to say, this good legislation will protect the people of Northern Ireland — overwhelmingly, although not always, young girls and women — and it therefore has to be welcomed. As the Ulster Unionist Party's spokesperson on justice, I absolutely welcome the fact that we have got to this stage with this legislation. I look forward to its getting Royal Assent and being enacted and, quite rightly, to all the resources being put in place to make sure that it does what we intend it to do.”
“Those in the Department of Justice and the Minister, who had the vision to drive this forward, also have to receive a special mention.”
“I will be brief, if I may. The Bill will make good legislation. It really shows the teamwork and collaborative working — of stakeholders, victims, the Committee, the Department of Justice and the Minister — that has taken place in taking it forward. It has been a long journey, which started way back in 2016, when I was a member of the Justice Committee. The people who championed it back then have to be recognised, and I thank the Chair for making sure that that was done. I thank the Chair and the Deputy Chair for their guidance and all the Committee members for what they have done in scrutinising the Bill. I also have to mention Paul Givan and Linda Dillon for the excellent work that they did, because the Bill would not have got here without that.”
“We all saw that cracking wit. He was totally immersed in politics. There was none like him; I saw that every day. He was, however, also a father, a husband and a son. In every interaction that I ever had with Christopher, that is what came out in spades. <BR /> <BR />I did not just like Christopher Stalford; I was jealous of Christopher Stalford. He was truly a first-class politician and family man. I am going to miss him. I am going to miss Christopher Stalford walking through the Assembly, in the Chamber and in the Speaker's Chair. The Assembly will be a lesser place for Christopher Stalford's not being here, but it is a greater place because he was here in the first place. May he truly rest in peace.”
“When I heard the news of Christopher's death on Sunday, my heart sank. The shock of the news literally took my breath away. I have no adequate words. I have no words that will quench the anguish of his party colleagues who are sitting here today. I have no words that will help with the pain that his family is dealing with today. I have no quick quip that can truly outline the person that we all knew and had interactions with. In this brief moment in the Assembly, those words are just not there. <BR /> <BR />Christopher was unique; absolutely, he was unique. He was a fierce debater, and he had a cracking wit.”
“I thank the Minister, and that is fair enough. An awful lot of time and effort has been expended on the issue. Minister, will you confirm that it will not be derailed by the fact that we do not have an Executive with a First Minister and deputy First Minister?”
“I urge Members to come together. I urge that we write that letter. It can be from the Speaker or from party leaders. We can do that, and we can fix this problem.”
“If they are going on to the EU single market, they absolutely should be checked, but they do not need to be checked if they are staying in Northern Ireland. That is only one issue around the protocol, but, as a House, we could do that. If we genuinely believe that there is no reason for checks between GB and Northern Ireland, we can absolutely do that together. We can be united and try to mitigate the problems and fix the issues, or we can stand here and poke each other in the eye. If the aim is to stand here and poke each other in the eye for the sake of it, we will not make this place better for the people here.”
“We have to fix that, but we will fix it only by speaking to the UK Government and the EU and getting them to understand that feast or famine issue and to fix the problems. <BR /> <BR />There is absolutely no requirement for an Irish Sea border. It should not be there; there is no need for it. The rigorous implementers probably look at it and say, "When I refer to this, I don't think we actually need it". In the House, we could all come together, be it five parties, all parties or all 90 MLAs, and write to the EU and the UK Government to say, "We do not believe that there need to be checks on goods that come from Great Britain to Northern Ireland if those goods are remaining in Northern Ireland".”
“<BR /> <BR />There are issues and genuine concerns around the protocol, and we cannot just ignore them. We never supported the protocol. We warned of the protocol on 2 October 2019, when the then leader of the DUP said that it was a pretty good idea, and in March 2020, when the now leader of the DUP told us about the great virtues of the protocol and about how it was an opportunity and would not affect our sovereignty. That was then, and this is now. <BR /> <BR />The protocol has created a feast and a famine. The feast is that some businesses are doing well out of the protocol. I have met them, and — I cannot lie — the protocol is good for them. However, there is also a famine in that some of our businesses are absolutely on their knees.”
“Walking away from our responsibilities will not resolve any of the issues that surround the protocol. The only thing that it will do is to hurt our people — the old, the young and the vulnerable — and the future of our children in Northern Ireland. I met the leader of the DUP on multiple occasions to talk this through. I said to him that collapsing the institutions or removing the First Minister would be a bad idea and explained my reasons for saying that. He has, however, now taken that decision; that decision is there. What we have to do is to analyse where we are right now and what we can do to maximise the legislation that is going through the Assembly for the betterment of the people of Northern Ireland. If we can stay focused on that, we can mitigate some of the damage.”
“Minister, I have raised the issue of staffing levels many times, and I honestly believe that there is a real concern about the staffing levels in our prisons. Will the Minister outline how we can try to increase those staffing levels to deal with the issues that are raised in the report?”
“I thank the Minister for her statement. I also welcome the report. It is an important and challenging piece of work. <BR /> <BR />I absolutely get what the Minister said about the people who are being held in CSUs. According to the report, one guy has been in a CSU for 366 days. That might be the individual that the Minister referred to. <BR /> <BR />My concern and my question to the Minister are based on her statement, in which she clearly stated:”
“Some people may accept my apologies, but I cannot make them do so. They may not see that there is sincerity in what I am saying, but I am being genuinely sincere. What I posted was wrong, and I unreservedly apologise to everybody for posting on Saturday night.”
“We must all be mindful of our language: I have said so on the Floor of this Chamber on many occasions. We must guard against language that is both hurtful and harmful. Over the weekend, I let my guard down, and for that I am truly sorry. I posted a joke, and, regardless of what my intentions were, it was not just inappropriate but absolutely and fundamentally wrong. Therefore, it is important that I stand here and say to Mr and Mrs Poots that I am sorry for the hurt that I may have caused. <BR /> <BR />I have to say to wider society that my language was wrong on every level, and I have to apologise to everyone. We have to guard against that, and I did not. I did not show the leadership that I should have shown, but I can by standing here and saying that, although it was a mistake, it was wrong.”
“<BR /> <BR />Nobody wants to force certification, and nobody wants to do it. We are doing it because we think that it is the right thing to do for our people. I support certification, and I support my staff who get abusive emails and phone calls. Swastikas and Stars of David are sent to them. They get absolutely mad emails, but I will not mock people if they do not want to get a vaccine. I will not mock people if they do not want to get certification. I will use the power of persuasion. When those people want to go to Spain in the summer, they know what they will have to do, and they will make up their own minds.”
“I was also very lucky to go to New York and Washington. Likewise, while I was there, I had to show certification for everything that I did. Again, people just got on with it, and there was no issue. Some of those people who are looking to go on holiday to Spain next summer will have to have certification. We are part of a global world where we want to make sure that our people have freedoms. <BR /> <BR />I view certification in a different way. I think that it is helping us to keep our economy open. It does not sit in isolation, and I have said that. It is linked to everything else. If it all comes together and all our people look at this and say that what we are trying to do is inherently good and not inherently bad, and they just work with us, we will keep our economy open.”
“I needed certification to get on to the plane; I needed certification at the other side; I needed certification to get into the event at the Ulster Tower in Thiepval; and I needed certification to get into every single pub and cafe that I went to in France. There was not a single issue. My heart did not miss a beat. It was simple. All the people just got on with it.”
“We can all present comments from various sources, and, at times, we present those comments without context. <BR /> <BR />We have to understand that Northern Ireland does not sit in splendid isolation. We are part of a world; we are part of a United Kingdom; and we are part of an island. We have to understand, therefore, that what happens outside our borders affects us. If you want to watch Manchester United play in England, guess what? You will need some form of certification. If you go to Glasgow and want to watch Glasgow Rangers or Celtic, you will need some form of certification. A while ago, I went to France for the 100th anniversary of the Ulster Tower.”
“People who are disabled and need disabled tags for their car have to show proof. I do not see what the issue is with showing some form of certification or proof that you do not have COVID. <BR /> <BR />If having COVID certification saves lives, saves our people from getting sick and allows the freedoms that they enjoy today, I will support the regulations. I will, of course, support the regulations, and I will support our Minister. At times, we have to have a degree of trust, and I trust our Chief Medical Officer and our Chief Scientific Adviser, whose advice we ask. We have empowered them by putting them in a place from which to advise us. I do not look at Twitter or Facebook to give me the information that I already know from looking at expert advice and talking to experts.”
“Is the problem just with showing proof? I was at the Balmoral show in the summer. It was wonderful. I queued up, showed that I had had my vaccinations, and I was allowed in. Nobody complained. People queued up to go to the Northern Ireland match. They knew that they had to show their proof of vaccination. Some of them did not show it, because they were not asked to, but they knew that they might have had to. There were no complaints. It was the same with Ulster Rugby and Irish Rugby. <BR /> <BR />It is the same for those who go to concerts: to get into a concert, they show their ticket, and then they show their proof of vaccination. There is absolutely no issue with that. Those who are luckily at the age at which people want to check whether they are old enough to get into a pub have to show proof of age. There is no issue with that.”
“I thank Robin Swann for his steadfastness and moral courage. I am grateful to the Minister for standing up and taking the flak for this — alone, in many cases — while other Ministers hide in the shadows because they clearly do not want to take the flak for some of these regulations. That is fine. I know that the Minister is up to the task. <BR /> <BR />We need to use everything at our disposal to tackle COVID-19. Nothing stands alone. All the measures work together: face masks, hand washing, hand sanitiser, lateral flow tests, PCR tests, social distancing, vaccinations — doses one and two, and the booster — proof of vaccination and COVID status certification. Nobody is being forced to get a vaccine — absolutely nobody. They have choice, and it is right that they do. <BR /> <BR />What, then, is the problem?”
“I shall be mercifully brief. We all know why the Minister has proposed these regulations. He has done so because we are in the middle of a global pandemic that has killed over five million people. We all know what we are trying to achieve. We are trying to safeguard the health of our people in Northern Ireland. That said, I know that we are divided. We are divided in the Chamber, we are divided within some political parties, we are divided within society, and we are even divided within families. <BR /> <BR />There is no point in vilifying or mocking somebody just because they do not support COVID certification, because that will not change anything. In the same way, there is no point in vilifying or mocking those who support COVID certification. Neither approach will move this issue forward. These are difficult decisions for us all.”
“<BR /> <BR />The HED should be situated in the Department for Infrastructure so that it can look at the planning laws that are falling by the wayside and allowing our heritage to be destroyed time and time again. This is happening not just in Northern Ireland but throughout the whole island of Ireland. It is important that we look at our history, not just recent history but our historic heritage, and not just for ourselves but for those who are coming after us.”
“It is another piece of our historic heritage that is being slowly degraded and ruined. I reflect on the grange and rath in Waringstown, in my constituency, that dates back to 1659, which, again through bad planning, has been completely destroyed and cannot be recovered. <BR /> <BR />My last example is the Newry canal. The Newry canal is the oldest summit canal in the United Kingdom and Ireland, dating back to 1742. Yet it sits in disrepair, especially the summit part of the canal between Markethill and Armagh, and it is in desperate need of restoration. In fact, all our historic heritage is in desperate need of protection. Of course, we have the historic environment division (HED), which sits in the Department for Communities, but many of the issues that I am speaking about are to do with the Department for Infrastructure and planning.”
“I do not want to minimise the very tragic story that has just been outlined about mental health. We are all on the same page on that issue. I want to raise the issue of our historic heritage, which is slowly being undermined as we all concentrate on very important, big political issues such as the protocol, COVID and health. <BR /> <BR />I have stood here before and talked about Knock Iveagh, a neolithic site that is older than the pyramids. Hundreds of years ago, it was the coronation place of Irish kings, and it has been destroyed by a wind turbine having been placed on top of it, which is against the proper planning permission. I can reflect on the Ballintaggart stones, also known as the giant's gravestones, that date back about 5,000 years. They were ripped up 13 years ago and now lie in storage that is open to the weather.”
“I thank the Minister. Can the Minister outline whether that is the only application, and, if it is the only application, how much is it likely to be for? Are we saying that the fund is not being picked up on and used at the minute?”
“I thank the Minister for that. It is good to see that it is still on track to be out before the end of the year. Will the Minister consider, in conjunction with the Communities Minister, setting up a fuel poverty task force to deal with that very real issue, which people are facing today?”
“I will support the Bill, as drafted. I will not support amendment Nos 1, 2 or 4, but I will support amendment No 3.”
“There are two points in that. We need to try to future-proof stuff. While there may be a small number who put in for a preliminary investigation now, that does not mean that it will be a small number in the years to come. If you believe in our justice system, you will believe that justice can be delivered in the Crown Court and that it does not just have to be delivered in the preliminary investigations. If the preliminary investigations are taken away, that does not mean that justice will not be served. I still feel that justice will be served. <BR /> <BR />As was said earlier, the amendment is too wide. My concern — it is my only concern — is that it would undermine the very reason why we are progressing the Bill, which is to speed up justice. It is a valid amendment, but, unfortunately, it is not an amendment that I can support.”
“He was quite right when he outlined that the court would make a ruling in the circumstances. However, my concern is that it would still take an awful lot of time. If more and more people do it, that would clog up the system. I do have concerns, and I think —”
“That is a good and sensible amendment. However, I look at that in contrast to what we are trying to achieve. We are trying to speed up the system in order to get justice more quickly and help victims. Would that amendment, in some ways, slow that down? Playing one off the other, I think that it would. I asked Mr Allister about:”
“If you follow the justice process in Northern Ireland and compare it to justice in other parts of the United Kingdom, you will see that it is far slower. The Bill is about speeding up the justice process and protecting witnesses. That is important, and that is the intent. <BR /> <BR />It is very rare that I come to a debate having not made up my mind, and that I listen to what people have to say in order to decide whether I will go one way or the other. I have listened intently to what has been said. The amendments attempt to revive article 29A of the 2015 Act. I get all the nuances about why it did not come in and should have come in, and that is fine. We can look back at the 2015 Act, if we wish. Trying to revive article 29A as an escape valve is absolutely laudable. It is perfectly right to bring that forward for debate.”
“I think that we all agree that our criminal justice system is far too slow. That undermines justice. It makes it really difficult to keep witnesses focused and able to maintain their ability to act as witnesses. Public confidence is also undermined by our slow justice system. We give bail to people with serious accusations and charges against them because the system is far too slow to deal with them. When people see that, it undermines the system. They think that our criminal justice system is not working, which is not particularly true. <BR /> <BR />The aim of the Bill is to speed up the criminal justice system. At the end of the day, it is not just about getting justice more quickly. That is important for the victims, of course, but it is also important for society to see that justice happens and happens in a timely manner.”
“You outlined clearly that, under paragraph (5), the court will then make a decision. What happens if the court makes a decision and says, "No" to that request? Is there or do you foresee there being a right of appeal? Would that slow the process down?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. On the very point that you have talked about, article 29A(2) says:”
“I thank the Minister for her statement, which is really important. There is an evilness to murder, and there is a double evilness to murder when you do not give up the body. Anybody who supports that adds to that evilness. You mentioned the proposal to consult on the current approach to sentencing for murders with no body. Is that going to be part of the public consultation, which starts on 29 November, or is it to be a separate process?”
“I thank Ms Bradley for the amendment, which was good. It was tabled for the right purposes. I have no issue with it. However, I am content with the wording of the Bill: it absolutely meets its intent of 100% compensation. I want to move that forward as quickly as possible. I do not want any delays to it. I am fearful that there could be delays if there were any form of expert panel, even though the Member said that she could look at that. That is fine. <BR /> <BR />We will not support the amendment, but I thank the Member for it. We will support the Bill.”
“First, I thank the Committee Chairman, Deputy Chair and members for all the work that they have done on the Bill. It has been exceptional. It is not an easy Bill to go through; it is difficult. Of course, I also thank the Justice Minister for getting it to where it is now. <BR /> <BR />We are all working in the same direction. I do not see that I need to labour my words, because we all want the same thing, which is 100% compensation. However, I welcome the amendment, and I thank Sinéad Bradley for tabling it. I know that it was late in the day. However, do you know what? It made me stop and double-check my work to make sure that I was looking at the Bill through the right lens. I engaged with a few people, including some in the Health Department, to ensure that what I was thinking was right.”
“Thank you, Minister. The process has been going on for over five years, given our slight interlude for a short period in between. It has a detrimental effect on the community and the pupils. Parents do not want their kids bussed out of Lurgan just because they were not selected for grammar education and nor do businesses, sporting clubs, the local council and educational experts. Will the Minister please listen to the people in Lurgan who say that it is not a good idea to bus those children out of Lurgan to Portadown and that it will not help their education?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. It is disappointing that the Executive did not give a letter of support before the initial bid went in, even though the council had asked for it in a timely manner. All the other city bids had those very important letters of support. You raise a really good point, First Minister, about giving the council the support that it needs now, and that is the important thing. I understand that the Communities Minister will be looking at the issue, but what support will the Executive Office give?”
“I will go back to the original question about the promotion of confidence. Given the high-profile murder of Sarah Everard, has the Minister had many discussions with the police about how they can raise confidence for females who meet police officers when they are out on their own?”