Doug Beattie
Upper Bann · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I absolutely accept what the Minister said earlier, which is that she would not have been able to get such a Bill out of the Executive. That is the sentence that you would have heard from me, Minister, had you waited a minute. I absolutely accept that that is the case, and I think that we all do.”
“Just a minute. Minister, I guess that I disagree with you, because I too did my work. I accept that I do not have the resources that you and your Department have, but I sat with the Public Prosecution Service and talked through this very thing, and it said that it was workable.”
“The Director of Public Prosecutions would look at the seriousness of the offence — death by dangerous driving, risk of harm to the public, serial arson, assault, sexual behaviour that is a danger to the public — and he would also look at the best interests of the child, because we have not got away from diversionary measures here.”
“Had James Bulger been murdered by two nine-year-olds, we would probably be having a discussion about the minimum age of criminal responsibility being nine, such was the anger in 1993 when that horrendous crime took place. All the ages are arbitrary, and we need to deal with that.”
“That raises the minimum age of criminal responsibility from 10 to 12. It is not what some people, who want it to be 14, want; it is not what others, who want it to stay at 10, want; but I believe that 12 is right. Why do I presume that a child can commit a criminal offence at 12 years of age?”
“In essence, however, that amendment would raise the minimum age of criminal responsibility from 10 to 14, apart from in the case of the offences in that closed list. It has been said many times, and I will not repeat what has been said, but the closed list does not make sense to me either.”
The complete record
Every one of 1,482 lines we hold for Doug Beattie, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 28 of 30.
“To be article 2 compliant does not mean that you have to have a legacy inquest; it says that you have to have an independent investigation or inquiry. That is what it states; that is what you need, especially if a state actor has been involved. However, state actors were involved pretty much in every death during the Troubles. In July 1983, four UDR soldiers were killed when their unarmoured vehicle went over a mine. The state failed to protect them. Why are they not on the list of legacy inquests? In the Shankill bombing, it is thought that Stakeknife was involved. He was a UK human intelligence source, so there may have been state involvement. Why is that not on the list of legacy inquests? We can probably say that in an awful lot of cases. That is why I say that we need lateral thinking on how we get round it.”
“I cannot, sorry. <BR /> <BR />If somebody is blocking it, bring it out so that we all understand what the issue is. I think I know what the issue is, and, on that, I probably sit with the DUP in many ways. The stumbling block is equality and parity and getting a system that is balanced, fair, impartial and appropriate for everybody. A lot of people see the legacy inquiry as something that gives a leg-up to one group while pushing the other group to the side. That might be a perspective, but, out in society, that is what people see.”
“That is what he said, and he said it on three occasions. This will help to bring clarity: let the Executive make a statement on where the issue lies that prevents them from asking for the money. If somebody is blocking it —”
“Soldiers are accountable for their actions in Northern Ireland, and, if they go outside the law, they should be held to account, as should paramilitaries and terrorists. I have said that on many occasions, but there are mechanisms that help release the information to help with some of the inquiries. <BR /> <BR />Some will say that the stumbling block is purely that the Westminster Government will not release the funding for the legacy inquiries. I sat with the Ballymurphy families and listened to their testimony. It was a harrowing testimony. I did not feel comfortable when I left the room having heard it, but it was important to hear it. They asked the Secretary of State very clearly, "Will you release the money?". He said, "If the Executive ask me for the money, I will release it".”
“I cannot disagree with that. You are absolutely right: it is justice for everybody. If it is not justice for everybody, what is the point? <BR /> <BR />There needs to be clarity and a little bit of lateral thinking if we are to get away from the intractable positions that we are in. We will lead victims down a cul-de-sac, and I am fearful of leading them down a cul-de-sac once again. Some will think that the issue is simply the state not giving up information because, they say, of national security. In some cases, the state is absolutely right not to give information if it will cause the death of an individual — we have seen that — or where there is an issue of national security. However, if it is not giving information to save its blushes and embarrassment, it should give it. Everybody is accountable.”
“You are looking at one narrative — you have explained that — and I am possibly looking at a different narrative. That creates issues.”
“It is interesting: I am sitting across the room from Mr Kearney, and, at one time, we would have been physical enemies; now we are probably just political adversaries. The only thing we fire at each other is insults, which is a darned sight better than bullets. I am absolutely clear that you are passionate about getting justice for the people you represent and all people in Northern Ireland, and I hope you can look at me and see that I am exactly the same and want to get justice as well. We have been able to move on, but many of the victims, not just those who are looking for legacy inquests, have not been able to move on and have not been given justice. This is an important debate, and I acknowledge that. <BR /> <BR />The problem is, in Northern Ireland, we have politically entrenched positions, where our views are intractable.”
“As the head of the Justice Committee, he is doing good work. <BR /> <BR />I support amendment No 1 and the motion.”
“Let us get police into our neighbourhoods again to listen to the communities, take those people off the streets, arrest when necessary and control if possible. We need to set out targets, timelines, outcomes and unifying factors. <BR /> <BR />This is not just an attack on the Executive, although it will clearly sound like it. I am trying to get people to gel and move this forward so that they look at the problems and say, "Well, that hasn't worked. Let's do something that does work". Good work is going on. I am looking at Mr Frew, who wants to ask me a question.”
“Sorry, I cannot. <BR /> <BR />I am told, "All this is going to happen, but, actually, we're dealing with paramilitarism anyway; it's one of the things we normally deal with". Do you know what? Tell that to the 400 families who have been forced out of their homes. Tell it to the victims of punishment shootings. Explain it to the families of Michael McGibbon, John Boreland, Joe Reilly and prison officer Adrian Ismay. It is not working. <BR /> <BR />What do we need to do? I am always told that we have to give alternatives. Here is my alternative: let us fund the PSNI properly. Let us bring it up to the manning levels as set out in the Patten report. Let us re-instigate neighbourhood policing.”
“Sorry, I cannot. <BR /> <BR />I will not be thanked for this, but I am going to say something because it has to be said: Sinn Féin has an inability to distance itself from the dissidents. It can use words like, "They are traitors to Ireland", but I understand how hard it is. Some IRA members whom Sinn Féin knew have bled into the dissidents, so it has a real issue. On the other hand, we have the DUP paying off paramilitaries: £1·7 million was given to Charter NI. Guess what? Over £500,000 of that is going on management costs.”
“Is it awareness that we do not want paramilitarism? I think that our country knows that. We do not yet have the structures in place to deal with it. We have seen that because we are spending only the meagre amount of £3·8 million. It is not working.”
“The action plan came out on 19 July, and it was not urgent enough. <BR /> <BR />Have the Executive engaged with the ex-prisoners' working group to address the issues identified relating to access to financial services, including lending, insurance, adoption and travel? What is the incentive for people to really transition if we are sitting on our hands and not giving them tools to help them? We need to help them, and we need to do it quickly. We need time frames and timescales. When will the process be completed? Will it be in five years, 10 years, 15 years or 20 years? When will we say whether or not it is working? We do not know, because we do not have any time frames. We are kicking the can down the road. <BR /> <BR />At the end of the year, we will produce a public awareness campaign costing £530,000. Awareness of what?”
“none of that money is going to the NCA. I find that absolutely extraordinary. <BR /> <BR />Transition is incredibly important. I understand where former paramilitaries and terrorists want to move on with their lives; they leave that behind them and they want to move on. I can understand that. If they really want to transition, they need help. Support for transition is under B1, which states:”
“Where we have £1·123 million going to the PSNI for:”
“What on earth does that even mean? I can hardly even say it, for goodness' sake. Yet, I will stand and say that I am looking at plans for the Probation Board that include the roll-out of the enhanced combination orders. I think that that is a good thing. <BR /> <BR />Here is where I have real concern: we are talking about ending organised crime, paramilitarism and criminality, yet we have not funded the NCA at the very start. The NCA brings a certain expertise and strategic intelligence; its raison d'être is dealing with organised crime, and we have not funded it. It did put in for funding but was taken out because it is a non-devolved body, so it has to apply through the PSNI to get funding. It did not get it because the Department of Justice believed that its bid was speculative. Really? Is it not working here already?”
“Thank you for remotely using me to ask the Alliance Party a question. I am sure that the Alliance Party will be able to answer that question in due course. <BR /> <BR />I also look at the money being spent by the PSNI on:”
“Just a moment. It has not spoken to the Commission on Flags, Identity, Culture and Tradition, which is doing the same body of work. It is naturally not joined-up. I will give way now.”
“I will tell you what makes me feel pessimistic: the funding. There was an expectation that there would be £5 million from the Executive, topped up with £5 million a year from Westminster, to help to tackle paramilitarism. That was the expectation. Yet, we intend to spend only £3·8 million of that £10 million in the first year. The Finance Minister says that it is because Westminster will not release the money because the plans are not developed enough. I have a tendency to agree with him. I look at some of the money that is being spent; for example, by the Northern Ireland Housing Executive. Three programmes on community empowerment, re-imaging communities and bonfire management are being delivered by the Housing Executive at a cost of £498,000, but it has not —”
“If I am really honest, and I will be, about this action plan for dealing with paramilitarism in Northern Ireland, I am absolutely pessimistic. I really am pessimistic. I take no joy in saying that I am pessimistic. I see 43 recommendations, but I do not see any unifying factor. I do not see any momentum. I do not see any urgency. What I see is 43 mini-plans, all working in isolation. That will not get us to where we want to be. Here is the thing: in five years, when we have not achieved what we have set ourselves to achieve, it will be the Executive parties that point the finger at the Justice Minister and say that she is at fault because she is taking the lead on this issue. I thank the Justice Minister for being here to listen to the debate. I genuinely thank you. <BR /> <BR />What makes me feel pessimistic?”
“I move this amendment on behalf of the Ulster Unionist Party and the SDLP, and I thank Mr Dickson for proposing the motion. I am glad he sees that our amendment adds to the motion and can support it. <BR /> <BR />I am naturally an optimist: for me, the grass is greener on the other side, and the glass is always half-full rather than half-empty. Some people will say that is because I view things in a simplistic way, through primary colours, but maybe it is because of my background. I look to mission command for a series of tasks, both specified and implied, and then I look at an end result. For that end result, all you need is a time that you want it for and the resources that you need, and then you will achieve your mission.”
“Communities in Ballymurphy, Shankill, Kingsmill, Bogside and Enniskillen are all victims and must be part of it, so we need that consultation. I support the motion.”
“Let us not politicise victims to make a hierarchy. <BR /> <BR />The second group of people just want to know what happened to loved ones in their last moments. They want to know, and they want acknowledgement that somebody did something wrong at a particular time. That is important. <BR /> <BR />The third group of people are those who just want to move on with life. We have to give them the ability to move on if that is what they want and if we are really to be victim-centred. <BR /> <BR />As far as the amendments are concerned, I will be honest. I am really sorry, but I cannot support the DUP amendment because it is, in truth, a little bit wishy-washy. I cannot support the Sinn Féin amendment because public consultation is important. Loyalist and nationalist groups need to be part of this.”
“<BR /> <BR />What does a victim want? I look at the three main categories of victim. Of course, I am putting people into blocks, and every victim is different. The first group wants justice, and there should be no barrier to that justice — absolutely none. It does not matter that you were a member of the state forces and broke the law; you should be held to account. If you were a terrorist or a paramilitary, you should be held to account. There should be no block to justice for the victims who want it. It must be fair, proportionate and balanced. What is the difference between the murder of Pat Finucane and the murder of my Uncle Samuel? Absolutely nothing. They were two heinous, horrendous crimes. There is no difference whatsoever, and that is important to remember. There should be no hierarchy of victims.”
“<BR /> <BR />The definition of a victim in the Victims and Survivors Order 2006 is quite broad and takes in many thousands of people who are victims. That is only the tip of the iceberg, because there are many thousands more. Everybody must be really mindful about what they say so that we do not create more victims. Victims are presenting with mental health issues 10, 20 and 30 years after an incident. The number of victims in Northern Ireland is increasing rather than decreasing. I listened to the Kieran Conway interview on 'HARDtalk'. I have to say that it was so ill-advised that that man will have created victims. People will have listened to what he said, and he will have created victims. That is why I say that we all have to be extremely mindful of the words that we choose. I need to be extremely mindful of that as well.”
“I wonder whether the whole of Northern Ireland is a victim. Are we all victims? Is everybody in the Chamber a victim? Are we all held by our past? In some ways, I think that we are. I remember, as a 10-year-old in 1975 — I know that people think that I do not look old enough — that knock on the door and my mother crying as she was told that her brother had just been murdered by the IRA or by somebody else under that flag of convenience. But he was murdered. Am I a victim? I do not feel like one and do not think that I am one, but people in my position may well feel that they are victims, and they are right to feel that way. Everybody will take it slightly differently, as I do, but my family in general feel like they are victims.”
“I thank Mr Attwood for proposing the motion. It is an important motion. It is one of the core issues. If we do not deal with our past, we will never produce a better future for our society. We really need to deal with it. <BR /> <BR />Interestingly, I listened to the news today, and it was full of talk about parking fines. Important as that issue is, there was nothing about this debate. I wonder whether our media and society in general are slightly bored of the talking shop that we sometimes turn into, and what they really want is action. I get a sense from the motion and from listening to everybody here that there really is a will for action. <BR /> <BR />When I read the motion, I was struck by the first sentence, which contained the phrase "victim-centred". I have been thinking about the word "victim".”
“I thank the Minister for her very welcome statement that these six named courthouses have received a reprieve. That is welcome for access to justice. She will know that my party has been calling for this all along; so, of course, it is a positive move, and I thank her for it. The question might be this: with the Courts 2020 review, what guarantees can she give that we will not be back in a position of uncertainty in the very near future?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I would just like to hear what he thinks about special treatment for paramilitaries when everybody else is locked down at lunchtime and dissident republicans are out playing football. Does he think that is fair? Does he think it should continue?”
“Should we be flexible if, in 2026, prisoners who have been in the separated regime for a long time are still in jail? I think that we can be flexible. I think that we should allow them to see out their time in that regime. <BR /> <BR />It is telling that, in 2007, four years after separation, a Minister acknowledged that it would be desirable to see separation phased out as our political situation improved — I hope that it has improved — but he was quite clear that he did not envisage any early end to it. We believe that ending separation should be a high priority for those responsible for criminal justice after devolution and would welcome an early debate on the issue amongst Northern Ireland politicians.”
“<BR /> <BR />There are issues, and I step up to those issues. First, the Secretary of State is the man who decides who goes or does not go into that prison. We are the elected representatives. We represent the people, and, if we do not want it, we need to stop it. We need to go to the Secretary of State, if that is what we have to do. We must go to the Minister of Justice. We must tell them that we do not want it any more; we want a normalised society. That is what the people want, and that is what we should deliver. <BR /> <BR />Should there be an all-Ireland solution? Can we have no separated regime in Northern Ireland while they have one in the Irish Republic? Do you know what? This is something that we have to talk about, and that is why I am talking about nine years from now — nine years. I keep saying that: nine years.”
“I know that it is difficult to come up with a plan to end that. My plan is for nine years — nine years. It took them one month to force this on us, and I am looking for nine years to get rid of it. If I am to take criticism, I will take it because I am suggesting nine years when I know that there may be people here who think that it should be done straight away or within this mandate. I ask for nine years because people need time to get used to it. Between now and the end of the mandate, it is about making sure that people understand the idea of ending the separated regime. At the end of the mandate, it is about stopping new prisoners going into that regime. That gives us a full mandate to get into integration. It challenges the status quo. It feeds into Fresh Start and the action plan on paramilitarism.”
“That would be bravo 8 of the action plan, but it addresses the framework of the separated regime; it does not talk about ending it. Here is where we are: no independent reviewer has been nominated; no one has been found yet; no process has been put in place to find one; and no resources have been put in place to get one. We have not taken a single step forward. We do not even have a term of reference. <BR /> <BR />Do you know what? I will start with the term of reference. The term of reference is my motion: let us end it. The Ulster Unionist Party believes that the continuation of the separated regime gives paramilitaries an identity, a centre of gravity, a credibility — a perceived credibility — and an ability to direct terrorism from inside the prison at society outside the prison.”
“No; not this time. <BR /> <BR />It supports:”
“That was in 2010. How did that work out? I will tell you how that worked out: it worked out with the death of prison officer Black; it worked out with the death of prison officer Ismay; it worked out with numerous prison officers being targeted for murder. <BR /> <BR />The amendment goes on to say that Sinn Féin supports:”
“The Member talked about the principles agreed in August 2010, and they are virtually the same. They stated:”
“Thank you very much for your intervention. I am just about to step into that little nugget now, if I may. <BR /> <BR />I am looking at the Sinn Féin amendment. It is full of great words, and I have to say that it is easy to support the words. I support some of the words because the amendment recognises that:”
“That is the reason why we went back to a separated regime, and this view was perpetuated by Sinn Féin. Here we have, yet again, terrorists holding a gun to the head of Northern Ireland society, saying, "Do as we say, or we will return to violence".”
“Interestingly, Mr Steele gave what was probably the real reason for going back to a separated regime when he said:”
“I thank you for your comments. I have spoken to individual members, and they have accepted and agree with what I propose. <BR /> <BR />I throw this back to the Steele report, which came out at a time when the devolved institutions had collapsed, and there was a fair degree of concern over security and safety. The Government instigated the Steele report, and, in one month, they decided to revert to a separated regime. Twelve days later, that was where we went. They did so against the recommendations of the Prison Officers' Association, the Prison Governors Association and the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. The rationale for bringing in the separated regime was health and safety — safety for prisoners — although the institutions I have just named said that there was no issue.”
“The motion supports the action plan on paramilitaries. It is important, as we take forward this work, that we keep in mind the ambitious outcomes that we are seeking to achieve: ultimately, a society in which citizens and communities feel safe and confident and in which paramilitarism has no place — no place. My motion dovetails with Fresh Start and the action plan. We are not here with this issue because we want to be; it was thrust upon us. I reach back —”
“First, I praise our Prison Service for its dedication, diligence, professionalism and courage in the most difficult of environments and circumstances. I pay tribute to the families of serving prison officers who were killed on duty; they have taken their hardship with great dignity and should not be forgotten. <BR /> <BR />The motion is in support of the Executive. It supports the DUP and Sinn Féin, Fresh Start and the action plan on tackling paramilitary activity, criminality and organised crime. 'A Fresh Start' says that we will:”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. Has he engaged or will he engage with the Ministry of Defence, which has now scheduled its surplus housing stock in Aldergrove to be demolished next year? That is housing stock that could be used for homeless veterans, families leaving the services in transition or, indeed, given the debate that we had yesterday on domestic abuse, as emergency housing for families involved in domestic abuse.”
“I ask us all to look to Women's Aid and involve them. I support the motion and the amendment of the Greens.”
“Come on, let us get on with it. There are only two parties in the Executive, so let us get on with it. I welcome the Justice Minister's recent comments about domestic abuse, just as I welcome the strong stance on coercive control taken by my friend Mr Frew, Chair of the Justice Committee, and his Deputy Chair.”
“<BR /> <BR />I look to the Communities Minister to commission public information adverts and leaflets, and to set aside housing so that when we have a case of domestic abuse, we can get the woman out with her children and put her in housing away from the problem. <BR /> <BR />The motion:”
“I do not want anybody to have to report rape or domestic abuse, so we need a form of education, and I call on the Education Minister to instigate a programme to educate young boys at the age of 15 or 16 about what domestic abuse is all about and what rape is about — and tell girls that they have the power to say no. <BR /> <BR />I look to the Justice Minister and ask her to fast-track legislation on domestic abuse, because it makes absolutely no sense that somebody suffering from domestic abuse can be assaulted five times by the same person but have five different cases and have to go to court on five occasions. It does not make sense.”
“I say yes to all three. <BR /> <BR />It is important that we look at them. We look at them as statistics, but every one is a story. I recently listened to Terri-Louise Graham's testimony, which I found incredibly harrowing. We all need to look at that to see what domestic abuse is really about and what coercive behaviour is really about. Recently, I met Alicia Perry from Women's Aid NI — she is one of their new ambassadors — and I listened to her story. That is another story that we all need to know. <BR /> <BR />We need a strategy for this.”
“Absolutely, and we should all be standing up in unison and saying, "This has got to stop". Sex crimes have soared by 60% in the last six years. You can look at different reasons for that, such as the ability to get online or online pornography, but whatever the reasons, we must address them. <BR /> <BR />Domestic crime accounts for 13% of all crime in Northern Ireland — 13%. The PSNI had to deal with 13,500 domestic crimes in the last 12 months. Remember, of course, that domestic crime normally happens about 30 to 35 times before it is even reported, so that is the tip of the iceberg. The motion continues:”
“I am haunted by the comment that abusers can be so manipulative that some victims enjoy the abuse. It is terrible; it turns me. I do not want to dwell on it, but it is the elephant in the room, and it has to be addressed. Please address it. <BR /> <BR />I will very briefly dissect the motion, which states:”