Doug Beattie
Upper Bann · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I absolutely accept what the Minister said earlier, which is that she would not have been able to get such a Bill out of the Executive. That is the sentence that you would have heard from me, Minister, had you waited a minute. I absolutely accept that that is the case, and I think that we all do.”
“Just a minute. Minister, I guess that I disagree with you, because I too did my work. I accept that I do not have the resources that you and your Department have, but I sat with the Public Prosecution Service and talked through this very thing, and it said that it was workable.”
“The Director of Public Prosecutions would look at the seriousness of the offence — death by dangerous driving, risk of harm to the public, serial arson, assault, sexual behaviour that is a danger to the public — and he would also look at the best interests of the child, because we have not got away from diversionary measures here.”
“Had James Bulger been murdered by two nine-year-olds, we would probably be having a discussion about the minimum age of criminal responsibility being nine, such was the anger in 1993 when that horrendous crime took place. All the ages are arbitrary, and we need to deal with that.”
“That raises the minimum age of criminal responsibility from 10 to 12. It is not what some people, who want it to be 14, want; it is not what others, who want it to stay at 10, want; but I believe that 12 is right. Why do I presume that a child can commit a criminal offence at 12 years of age?”
“In essence, however, that amendment would raise the minimum age of criminal responsibility from 10 to 14, apart from in the case of the offences in that closed list. It has been said many times, and I will not repeat what has been said, but the closed list does not make sense to me either.”
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“Let us not allow anybody to redirect us, in any shape or form, from pointing the finger at the individuals who are responsible.”
“It was responsible for that. Some people will try to spin that and say, "Well, it was the UK security forces that did that", but let us be clear: of course, the security forces made mistakes, but the people who tortured and murdered others were part of that Disneyfied nutting squad, including the man who was called Stakeknife. Anybody who supported that or knew about it is also an utter disgrace. We know that there are people in a party in the Chamber who know information about it. <BR /> <BR />Operation Turma looks at the murder of three RUC constables in 1990, and Operation Mizzenmast looks at the murder of Jean Smyth-Campbell in 1972. <BR /> <BR />We will have those four reports to look at, but let us be clear: the people who pulled the trigger, those who sent them out and those who supported them are the ones who are responsible.”
“Those who served in the security forces and were part of the Glenanne gang are an utter disgrace — a disgrace — to the uniform that they wore and those brave men and women who served alongside them and did so within the law. They can never be viewed as anything other than terrorists. <BR /> <BR />Operation Denton looked at the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, and although those involved cannot be named because of a legal challenge, the investigators have the names of those who were responsible. I wish that the Dublin Government could do something similar in regard to Omagh. <BR /> <BR />Operation Kenova was about the human intelligence source known as Stakeknife. Stakeknife murdered 18 people. Stakeknife did that. The nutting squad — the Disneyfication of violence in Northern Ireland is absolutely astounding — murdered 30 people.”
“A number of legacy reports will be released today. I thank those individuals who were responsible for conducting the investigations, which will, hopefully, give us the closure and information that we so desperately need. <BR /> <BR />Operation Denton was about investigating what was known as the Glenanne gang, a terrorist organisation that was responsible for over 120 murders of men, women and children. As a unionist, I stand here and say that I have absolutely no link whatsoever to those people. We know that they are a scourge on our society. They do not get any unionist support whatsoever. It is important to understand that. They killed mostly because of religion, including 34 people — men, women and children — in the Dublin and Monaghan bombings.”
“We have to make people aware that, if they are at the scene of an accident or if they witness something else, such as an assault, and their first action is to pick up the phone not to dial 999 but to take a video, they are wrong, and the justice system will come down on them.”
“We need more of that, but, as was mentioned in a previous debate, the police need the resources to do that, and the courts need to ensure that a deterrent goes with it. <BR /> <BR />As I bring my remarks to an end, my thoughts are with the families of "Scotty John" and Caoimhe and with all the families who have suffered in this way. It is truly appalling. While the criminal justice system is not the answer to all the issues — I fully accept that — where we have nothing else, we have to use it. We have to create that deterrent.”
“to make the taking of those ghoulish images illegal. I support that 100%, but, on a practical level, I am not sure that we can get that done before the end of the mandate. I hope that we can and that the Minister can find a way. My colleague on the Justice Committee Paul Frew outlined a way of doing that, and I would support that. However, if it cannot be achieved by the end of the mandate, we need to use what we have available to us to create a deterrent to prevent people from taking pictures. The Communications Act 2003 was used by the police to arrest a 47-year-old woman under the misuse of the public communications network to send grossly offensive and indecent material in regard to the death of John O'Brien in Newry. It did not stop the images, but it can act as a deterrent.”
“I absolutely support that, but I would go further and count in all those other instances that I mentioned. Caoimhe's family learned of her death through social media. How utterly reprehensible, disgusting and disgraceful that that could ever happen. It was done by design by those individuals. The individuals responsible have lost touch with any form of morality. They caused unimaginable hurt to Caoimhe's family and friends. <BR /> <BR />Lastly, the motion calls for the Justice Minister to bring forward legislation:”
“For reasons known only to them, they decided that they would share those distressing images, which had a terrible effect on the family. John O'Brien, our lovely "Scottish John", or "Scotty John" as he was referred to by many, deserved better. His family deserved better. <BR /> <BR />Sadly, the trend of taking pictures instead of helping goes well beyond traffic accidents. We see it with assaults on the person, abuse of staff and accidents in the workplace. One of my own staff saw it in the attempted abduction of a female. It has to stop. It is a societal issue that we are going to have to deal with. <BR /> <BR />Secondly, the motion calls for support for the campaign known as Caoimhe's law:”
“The Ulster Unionist Party will support the motion from the SDLP. We see three elements in it. <BR /> <BR />The first is that it outlines the trend of taking pictures at the scene of an accident instead of assisting. We now have some elements of society who are so wedded to their phones and social media, scrambling for likes and shares and making media input, that they are too busy creating a story to help. They have lost all sense of decency, morality and compassion. We saw that back in October of this year, as has just been referred to. In a road traffic accident, a 67-year-old pedestrian was struck by a lorry and, sadly, passed away at the scene. Some people stopped to help, but others just stood and took pictures.”
“We now have the ludicrous situation whereby, because it is no longer recorded, charities, churches, employees and government organisations can neither confirm nor deny whether an NDA is in place and the public and an individual's future employers have no way of checking whether there is a systemic issue. If you are a claimant, you are not even allowed to say that you have an NDA. That needs to change. The wording of any tribunal needs to reflect exactly what has happened, and that needs to go on to a public register. Sadly, the Assembly changed those rules only last year. We need to sort out the system for the Justice Department and the Department for the Economy, because, right now, it is being abused.”
“NDAs are used to cover up bullying, harassment and sexual impropriety, and, incredibly, they are used to hide criminal offences. <BR /> <BR />Those who sign NDAs do not know the long-term effect on their future employment, because they have no way of explaining to a future employer that the issue that they had with their previous employer was settled between them. Why is that? It is because industrial employment tribunals no longer give a full judgement on the NDA's being agreed, apart from saying, "The claim was dismissed following withdrawal". That is all that it says on the judgement. The judgement is not publicly registered, so nobody can go on to the industrial tribunal web page to see that a case has been settled.”
“There are cases of coercion being used to force individuals to sign NDAs, including, in one case that I heard about, a family member in employment being targeted to get their spouse to sign an NDA.”
“The issue of non-disclosure agreements (NDAs) has been thrown into sharp focus since a criminal investigation was launched into the Presbyterian Church in Ireland. I do not intend to talk about that case but about NDAs in general. <BR /> <BR />Of course, NDAs are needed for commercially sensitive material or privileged medical information, for example, but, having been approached by multiple individuals, I have grave concerns about the general use of NDAs. NDAs are mostly put in place following employment disputes. However, there seems to be a prevalence of NDAs in the charity sector and in religious organisations, to the extent that I am concerned that the Charity Commission is blind to many of them or is turning a blind eye. Women seem to be more susceptible than men to being asked to sign NDAs.”
“— when something was rushed that should not have been.”
“There is an issue across the board, which is why I said that it is societal. <BR /> <BR />We need to make sure that, when we implement Right Care, Right Person we do so at the right time, that it is staged right and that we do not just throw it in without making sure that it has been properly sequenced. If we need to see why we should not do that, we just need to look to what happened to the Cawdery family —”
“However, the police also receive 400,000 phone calls to their 101 service, the majority of which are not crime-related. Without a shadow of a doubt, the reduced headcount in the police is having an effect. <BR /> <BR />The call about the Budget is an absolute red herring, to be perfectly honest. I genuinely think that. The Department of Health is the largest Department. It has the most real estate, the most vehicles and the most people — 95,000 employees in the Department of Health. The Department of Education has about 45,000 people, and the Department of Justice has 14,000 people. We should remember that the Department of Health also looks after the Fire and Rescue Service. Many people forget that. We need a joined-up approach. We should also remember that the judiciary is putting people with mental health issues into prisons.”
“However, under Right Care, Right Person, the police would attend about 13,000 calls, which is about 36%. That is a huge change in resources. The remaining calls would, obviously, go to other agencies. Some really good work is happening between the Department of Health and the Department of Justice. They need to work at this. However, it will take time. The motion rightly states that, on average, the police receive around:”
“A neighbour has not been seen recently; a call is made to the police; and the police triage that call and decide that they will not attend but that it will be for the adult safeguarding team, maybe local council services or a registered family member to attend instead. That makes perfect sense to me. <BR /> <BR />I will give another example. A child could miss school; a call is made to the police; the Right Care, Right Person approach is taken; the call is triaged; and the Department of Education decides that it will look at it with education welfare services. You get the idea behind the system; it is pretty straightforward. <BR /> <BR />The statistics are really stark. The police receive around 38,000 calls a year on concerns for safety. They attend about 28,000 of those calls, which is about 78%.”
“It is a societal issue, and we need to deal with it. <BR /> <BR />The PSNI's Right Care, Right Person approach is, without a doubt, the right one to take. It will take time and will, clearly, need Justice and the police to work in partnership not only with the Health Department but with the Department of Education and the Department for Communities. It goes right across our Departments. The result will be a huge reduction in calls to the police, because they will not attend them. That will save them time and resources. The police will triage calls and decide whether they or their partners will attend a call. Let me give an example.”
“I thank the Member for that intervention. I have been touched by suicide on at least five occasions, so I know exactly where she is coming from. I am talking about a societal issue. This is a societal issue, not a structural issue. We need to tackle its cause at the root. I think that it was Desmond Tutu who said:”
“Just one minute. I will try to get you in. <BR /> <BR />The DUP amendment adds value to the motion, and we will support it. It is a genuinely important motion. We are talking about a fundamental change, and, because it is such an important, fundamental change, I am surprised that the Justice Minister is not here to hear about it. I want to hear her view on Right Care, Right Person. I want to hear what she wants to do on that, so I am surprised that she is not here.”
“This is the eleventh motion or Matter of the Day in the past 12 months to call on the Health Minister to prioritise something. I will be interested to see what the priority of the priorities will be at the end of it all. That said, I agree with the intent of the motion regarding mental health. Absolutely, it needs to be funded — we need to find the money somewhere — because we have a societal problem that we are all dealing with: I agree with that. I also agree that we cannot tie up our police in doing what they do now in response to many mental health issues. <BR /> <BR />Therefore, I agree with the motion but not with all the words in it. The health service is not failing, and those who work in it are not failing either. Absolutely not: they are working as best they can, to capacity.”
“I thank the Minister for that answer. Domestic homicide reviews are a good thing, and I absolutely welcome them, but the Minister said that there is no benefit in naming the perpetrator when the victim's name is known. My argument is that, for public confidence, there is a reason why we should name the perpetrator in such a case. Will the Minister review that decision on the legislation?”
“Alternatively, if the answer is no, which it may be at the moment, not because of any fault on the Minister's part but because we have not provided the resource, what will we do about it? Those are important questions, which is why I have added them as an amendment to this very important motion.”
“I just do not have time, Minister. Sorry. <BR /> <BR />Bearing in mind that about 300 to 400 officers leave the service each year, we are down to 6,200 officers. Listen and remember this figure: only about 4,500 officers are deployable. That is all: 4,500 officers are deployable. How have we allowed that to happen? A lack of funding, a lack of prioritisation, a lack of scrutiny and a lack of strategic questions and honest answers. Police numbers continue to fall, so the simple question for the Minister is this: is the three-year target achievable? Is it still viable? If the answer is yes, the Minister can give us achievable measures. When will we hit 6,500 officers? When will we hit 6,750 officers?”
“<BR /> <BR />Our amendment brings a bit of reality to the issue of police resourcing and asks important questions. First, the money has not been made available for the workforce recovery plan, which was first agreed in June 2025, having been submitted in January 2025. We are already behind with our workforce recovery. Bearing in mind that about 300 to 400 —.”
“Remember that politicians are the legislators, the police are the investigators, the Public Prosecution Service (PPS) is the prosecutor and the courts give the verdict and sentences. I have genuine concerns — I know that the Minister will disagree with me — about how, in order to speed up justice, cases are going to the Magistrates' Court instead of the Crown Court. That is a particular issue for non-fatal strangulation cases, where victims are predominantly women and girls. In 2023-24, there were 344 cases of non-fatal strangulation, of which 329 went to the Magistrates' Court and only 15 went to the Crown Court. Of the total cases, only 20% resulted in a custodial sentence. That is not an issue for the Minister but for the courts and the PPS. However, it is worthwhile mentioning that.”
“Of course, that is an operational matter for the PSNI and the cybercrime unit, but the strategic oversight still sits with the Chief Constable and the Department of Justice, with the latter giving policy direction. The PSNI has now moved to a threat, harm, risk, investigation, vulnerability and engagement (THRIVE) model to rectify disproportionate prioritisation of paramilitarism over child exploitation, but, yet again, the PSNI is unable to do that fully unless it gets the resource. Again, resource means funding, and the Minister has said that many times. <BR /> <BR />On the wider implications of violence against women and girls, I share the motion's concerns and have raised them on multiple occasions.”
“That man was still allowed to go online even though that is where he carried out all his abuse. The police carried out cursory checks only. I have seen some bail conditions that are absolutely scandalous. That is an area that needs to be looked at. Allowing him to go online during the investigation is staggering. The second issue is prioritisation. In 2018, at the heart of the investigation, the priorities were paramilitarism and serious organised crime as opposed to online child exploitation. Of course, paramilitarism and organised crime are extremely serious, but to prioritise them over online child exploitation is difficult to stand over.”
“Thank you, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. The protection and safeguarding of our citizens must be the main priority for the police, the Assembly and the Department of Justice. The findings of the Police Ombudsman regarding Alexander McCartney's online child sex offences are concerning and outline grave failings. The motion is right to outline the lack of police capacity and capability in that area, and that is a resource issue. The report also found that there were serious delays in the investigation due to the backlog in the PSNI cybercrime centre, which is where the police forensically interrogate electronic devices. Again, that is due to a lack of resource — funding — and it creates a direct risk to victims. <BR /> <BR />There were other issues, the first of which is bail. The bail conditions given to that individual were weak.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I agree with him on migration and people leaving these shores. Sometimes, though, it is a good thing that people leave to experience other countries and cultures and to get other skills. Does the Member agree that the issue is that we need to provide the opportunities to bring them back?”
“I am happy to learn from the census data and work together to come up with something that is good for Northern Ireland to make it a better place for all its people, to allow the free movement, north and south, east and west. We must remember that, on a daily and weekly basis, about 6,000 people go from the island of Ireland to Great Britain, and that is the beauty of the common travel area that we have on these islands where we all live. All that we have to do now is harness that information and find out what is best for our people. For us, of course, when we look at it constitutionally, we want to stay in the United Kingdom. I wish that the Twenty-six would join us, but I understand that they do not want to, and that is fine. We can, however, look forward, in order to get through the harder times, to better times on the horizon.”
“That has been happening over many years, and the SDLP was part of the Executive for many years, so it cannot wash its hands and say it is all our fault and not take any responsibility. <BR /> <BR />The issues that affect us on this island — north and south, east and west — whether you call yourself British or Irish, are caused by many things, including the geopolitical situation. World events, such as COVID and the collapse of our Government, have a real impact on this place. There are many reasons why Northern Ireland is in this situation, and there are many reasons why the Republic of Ireland is having a boom, but it never stays like that, because these things ebb and flow. The census is one great snapshot in time, but it does not give us all the answers; we need to keep working at it.”
“It helps the United Kingdom to look after the western approaches and add a bit of support to Ireland's defence and security. It is not done selfishly; it benefits the UK, and we all need to understand that. <BR /> <BR />On the SDLP amendment, sure: population growth, poor reported health outcomes and a significantly higher burden of unpaid care are all factual, but they are a snapshot in time. It was not like that 15 years ago; it may not be like that in 15 years. We need to keep working across these islands, east and west, north and south. Is it all the Executive's fault? If you want to go down the line of saying that everything that is wrong with this place is the Executive's fault, that did not just happen yesterday.”
“<BR /> <BR />The interchangeable agri-food industry, pharmaceuticals and tech are embedded in each other's supply chains, but, of course, Brexit has hampered that. We stood up against Brexit. We did not support it — it was a bad idea — but that is democracy for you, and we have to work through it. However, half a million Irish-born individuals now live in Great Britain. Over 100,000 British people live in the Irish Republic. It makes me wonder why they ever left the Union in the first place. Can we learn from that? Absolutely. Should we learn from it? Yes, of course. These islands are in an incredible position, given their geographical and, in large parts, common economic and cultural alignment. Ireland also benefits from the UK on defence and security, and it is not given begrudgingly; we work together right across these islands.”
“That will hamper our tourism, and we have talked about that. However, the Member has made a fair point, and it is a point that gets kicked up. It is bad decision-making, as far as I am concerned. There is a real positive from the common travel area, and it is something that we should all look at and support. The real positive in these British Isles is the trade with the United Kingdom, the largest single export market for Ireland, and Ireland is one of the UK's top six export destinations. I know that some will not like me calling it the British Isles, and I get that, but I have not moved to the Trumpian way of renaming places. It is still the Gulf of Mexico to me, not the Gulf of America, and we still live in the British Isles.”
“The movement of citizens on both sides of the border, and across the border, is positive for me and for everybody who lives and works on this island; nobody should see it as otherwise. Two jurisdictions, one island. It does not hamper the free movement of individuals each way, and nor does it hamper movement across all these islands.”
“The reality is that population ebbs and flows for many reasons, in the same way as it grew due to the Celtic tiger, for example, but it will drop for other reasons. I am not sure that looking back 150 years is helpful. It is lazy just to say that it was due to the famine.”
“It is a period to be remembered and for the suffering to be understood, not minimised. I think that the motion minimises it, in truth. However, you can see from our amendment that the population of Ireland shrank even lower than the post-famine levels 100 years later: who or what was to blame for that? Research will tell you that it was due to mass migration in the 1950s. The population dropped to its lowest level ever in 1961. It was nothing to do with the famine. The migration was due to economic stagnation, lack of jobs in Ireland, the economic boom in post-war Great Britain and increased opportunities in the US and Canada. The population in Northern Ireland dropped as well, as the linen business and the shipyards contracted and people left the island to find work.”
“Thank you, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. I will start by apologising for missing the very start of the debate and the moving of the motion and the contribution from Sinn Féin. It was just tardiness on my part. <BR /> <BR />If I can be honest about it, having read the initial motion on the census, I genuinely struggled to see the point of it. Indeed, the SDLP amendment added some flesh to the bones of the motion, as did the contribution from Mr O'Toole, including an understanding of the east-west dimension, which I will mention. <BR /> <BR />There is a bit of casual Brit-bashing in the middle of the motion, as if the whole issue of population decline were due to the famine. It was a time of great hardship, when all communities suffered, and those who represented these islands did not do their best to safeguard the people in Ireland.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. It is good to hear that you are talking a whole-system approach. Community care is a critical component of our wider health and social care system. How are you seeking to ensure that social care will be better integrated to support people in their homes?”
“Let us review the legislation, as per the motion that was moved by my colleague Robbie Butler.”
“First, you need to understand the problem. You cannot understand the problem unless you grab hold of the legislation and say, "I'm going to go through this. I'm going to review this. I'm going to see where the loopholes are". You are absolutely right: some solutions could be delivered at a local level, but some of them will need something else or something higher. Somebody might need something that closes a loophole that we identified because we reviewed the legislation. <BR /> <BR />Let us stop all fireworks in residential areas, unless they are licensed public displays. Let us reduce the curfew from 11.00 pm to 10.00 pm because of older people. Let us proactively tackle the antisocial behaviour that is linked to fireworks. Let us deal with the online sale of fireworks to give legal clarity.”
“I will see whether I can give you a bit of time. <BR /> <BR />There are things that we can look at. I will just fire them out. Let us increase awareness of the misuse and the effect of fireworks. It is about education. Let us reduce the explosive content of fireworks and create low-noise options. We can do that. Let us have fireworks exclusion zones around hospitals, farms and animal rehoming centres. Let us ban for life any businesses from selling fireworks if they are caught selling outside dedicated times, selling to under-18s or importing illegally. Let us have a mandatory legal duty on all organisations that conduct fireworks displays to inform homes that may be affected. <BR /> <BR />I give way.”
“There are many things that we are talking about. If we review the legislation, we can try to close some of the loopholes. The problem with the Alliance Party's amendment is that all that it wants to do is increase the sentences. It does not want to review. I absolutely get what the Minister said about resources — I do not envy her — but the legislation needs to be reviewed because we need to see how things have changed in the past 20 years.”
“They want to deal with things quickly and get the fireworks off the street. <BR /> <BR />I will give way to the Minister if she still wants to intervene.”
“We had one such case just last year in Bellaghy, where an individual was arrested for selling thousands of illegal fireworks. There has been no outcome of that — certainly not that I know of — but there was an arrest. We have had no bang to that particular issue. If you are under 18, possessing fireworks, throwing fireworks or breaching the fireworks curfew could get you a fine of up to £5,000. That is pretty hefty. I have seen far less for other offences. We all know that under-18s do it: we know that it happens this time of the year, and we know about antisocial behaviour. Yet, very few under-18s are arrested for possession of fireworks. Why? The police confiscate the fireworks and send the young people on their way. That is what they do, whether we believe it or not.”
“I will come to you if I have time, if you do not mind. <BR /> <BR />Northern Ireland follows the rules of the EU due to the Windsor framework, which means that it diverges from the UKCA marking. Indeed, it retains the EU laws that set the decibel limit at 120. How do you get round that? You do it by having rules that reduce the explosive content in fireworks and not letting other ones in. I think that, at present, the maximum here is 1·3 grams. If you made it 1 gram, you would reduce the decibel level. It is simple fact — simple maths. We can do that by saying that we do not allow fireworks to come in that have over 1 gram of explosive content. If you break the rules — for example, if you were to sell outside permitted periods without a licence — the penalties are pretty hefty already: up to six months' imprisonment and/or a £5,000 fine.”
“I will just get on, Minister, because you are probably going back to the exact same thing.”