Doug Beattie
Upper Bann · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I absolutely accept what the Minister said earlier, which is that she would not have been able to get such a Bill out of the Executive. That is the sentence that you would have heard from me, Minister, had you waited a minute. I absolutely accept that that is the case, and I think that we all do.”
“Just a minute. Minister, I guess that I disagree with you, because I too did my work. I accept that I do not have the resources that you and your Department have, but I sat with the Public Prosecution Service and talked through this very thing, and it said that it was workable.”
“The Director of Public Prosecutions would look at the seriousness of the offence — death by dangerous driving, risk of harm to the public, serial arson, assault, sexual behaviour that is a danger to the public — and he would also look at the best interests of the child, because we have not got away from diversionary measures here.”
“Had James Bulger been murdered by two nine-year-olds, we would probably be having a discussion about the minimum age of criminal responsibility being nine, such was the anger in 1993 when that horrendous crime took place. All the ages are arbitrary, and we need to deal with that.”
“That raises the minimum age of criminal responsibility from 10 to 12. It is not what some people, who want it to be 14, want; it is not what others, who want it to stay at 10, want; but I believe that 12 is right. Why do I presume that a child can commit a criminal offence at 12 years of age?”
“In essence, however, that amendment would raise the minimum age of criminal responsibility from 10 to 14, apart from in the case of the offences in that closed list. It has been said many times, and I will not repeat what has been said, but the closed list does not make sense to me either.”
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“We can, however, still look in the margins to see what we can do. In supporting this, I will go away from here knowing that, at Committee Stage, I and my fellow Committee members will see what we can do. I do not think that a single Member here does not want to try to do this as quickly as possibly. There is no politics in this one, apart from politics itself. Rather, this is about making sure that we get compensation to those who deserve it, as was outlined by the Chair. I will therefore look at having a shortened Committee Stage and see what I, as the Ulster Unionist Party spokesperson on the Justice Committee, and others can do. At the end of the day, any decision that we make will be made for the right reasons. That is important.”
“In doing so, however, it is important that we scrutinise that, because the discount rate must be changed and the plaintiffs being compensated must get 100% compensation. <BR /> <BR />I was never in support of using the accelerated passage procedure for the Bill, and I do not think that that request ever picked up any momentum at all. I will absolutely examine in Committee our ability to do this as quickly as possible through a shortened Committee Stage. I will discuss that to see how we can do it. If I have to work extra days, I will work extra days. If we are asked to do extra Committee days, we will do extra Committee days. Can we achieve that by 30 April? I do not know. At our most recent Committee meeting, the Chair made it clear just how packed our programme is, and I absolutely accept that.”
“I thank the Minister. I will be clear: I do not think that you pulled it from the air, and I was not suggesting that you did. The point is that the figure needs to be examined, scrutinised, talked through and understood. That is why scrutiny at Committee Stage is extremely important. Likewise, when we look at the much-preferred English and Welsh model, we have to ask why is it much preferred. What does it do that the Scottish model does not do? We need to examine that. These are complicated issues that we need to address. <BR /> <BR />I will be supporting the Bill's Second Stage, because, as we have all said, we have to change the outdated discount rate and move it forward.”
“The case, however, for adding 0·5% to the discount rate as a margin adjustment to counter the chance of under-compensation does not seem to have been made, if you look at the Scottish model. There is a real danger of overcompensating somebody if you apply that margin.”
“We have to be mindful of the compensators, the insurers, the public bodies, including Health and Social Care, our constituents and, more widely, the people of Northern Ireland, whose premiums may increase because of the actions that we take in the Chamber or in Committee. We have to be mindful of them. <BR /> <BR />The question for me is not this: are we striving to make sure that the plaintiff gets 100% of the compensation? Rather, the questions for me are these: which methodology do we use to achieve that, and which framework do we think is best in order to get it? We all have our thoughts on that, and it is right that we bring those thoughts out at Committee Stage. <BR /> <BR />The Minister is going for the Scottish model, and she has given really good reasons for why.”
“There is nobody here who does not want that. If any Members do not want it, they certainly have not stood up to say so.”
“First of all, I thank the Minister for introducing the Bill. Everything that she is doing is being done for the right reasons. While there may be some disagreements about the methodology that will be used, it is not that we are not all trying to achieve the same thing. I also thank the Chair of the Committee for his powerful testimony about a constituent. It is important to get those human stories because, at the end of the day, those are the people whom the legislation will affect. I thank him for that. The discussion on the interim rate is important, but I will not go into it now. I will not go into too much detail, because the Chair covered everything quite well. <BR /> <BR />We all want the same thing here, which is for those who are to be compensated to get 100% of the compensation.”
“I genuinely thank the Minister for that really welcome statement. I join the Chair in being disappointed that I have been able to follow this on social media for some time. We really need to fix the leakage from the Executive. <BR /> <BR />You said something really important, which was that we will move at pace but will move slowly where we have to. That is the right thing to do in the various sectors. However, Boris Johnson made a clear commitment when he said that we will not go backwards. Will you able to make the commitment today that, once we have gone forward to a phase, there will be no going back?”
“Minister, will the Counter-Terrorism and Sentencing Bill affect the review?”
“I know that an awful lot of work has been put into this over this last number of months. I know that you have been creating COVID spaces for jury trials. Will you let us know how you are getting on with the ones that are due to be finished in April in Antrim, Dungannon and Newry?”
“It is incumbent on us all to make the racial equality strategy work to help with diversity in this part of the United Kingdom. Many from the BME community, especially the newcomer communities, cannot avail themselves of the rules around the common travel area. What are we doing to rectify that?”
“Regardless of that, the legislation is extremely timely, and I hope that we can move it forward as quickly as possible. I look to those who raised the issue, and I will support the Minister, her Department and my fellow Committee members in making sure that we get a Bill that is fit for purpose and victim-centred. <BR /> <BR />There is a societal issue that we need to deal with. That issue may well start with social media and its footprint and presence, whereby we allow people to troll anonymously and make remarks that are not based on facts and can lead to bad situations. I hope that, at some stage, that can be addressed. I will do all that I can to support the Minister in progressing the Bill.”
“<BR /> <BR />PSNI figures show that incidents of harassment are on the increase, from approximately 3,100 in 2016-17 to 4,200 in 2017-18 — an increase of 35%. It is worth noting that victims suffer around 100 incidents of stalking behaviour before they realise that they are being stalked. While many of those cases do not reach crisis point, it is important to engage early to stop it from getting to that point. The Bill has important provisions for stalking protection orders, fines up to £10,000 and prison sentences, as outlined by the Justice Minister. <BR /> <BR />I was trying to think generally about stalking in our difficult society and the difficult place we are in, even now with the pandemic. Perhaps online or digital stalking, in their many forms, will be on the increase.”
“<BR /> <BR />In 2015, the Office for National Statistics recorded that — I do not have up-to-date figures — 4·9% of women and 2·4% of men experienced stalking. In England and Wales, that accounted for around 1·5 million people. <BR /> <BR />I did not know that there was a national stalking helpline, but of course there is. If people are not inclined to use the helpline or if it is not promoted, people may not know about it, just like me. Approximately 45% of people who contacted the helpline were being stalked by people with whom they had been in a relationship, and a further one third had a prior acquaintance with the stalker. Predators show persistence, fixation and obsession. Victims feel pestered, scared, anxious and harassed, and nobody should feel like that.”
“to the victim and the offence of threatening or abusive behaviour. The Bill is victim-centred, and it is always important that we remain victim-centred. We should never apologise for being victim-centred. <BR /> <BR />Stalking is complicated. The more you look into the issue, the more complicated it becomes and the more spin-off it has for the way in which our society works. There is the rejected stalker; the resentful stalker; the incompetent suitor; the intimacy-seeking stalker; and the predatory stalker. The strange thing is that many of those stalking behaviours come about because of mental health issues. It is sometimes very easy to use "mental health" as a catch-all phrase. However, it cannot be dismissed and must be looked at. Some of those who engage in stalking have mental health issues.”
“I was not going to mention you. Sometimes, we pay lip service to that, but we do have issues with online trolling, which is, in many ways, a form of stalking. <BR /> <BR />The Bill identifies behaviour that:”
“We let down victims because we let it just drift on. However, it is fair to say that the Department of Justice carried on the work. It did a bit of stuff, not at the speed that we wanted, but it carried on looking at stalking and brought out the consultation that many people fed into. We need to recognise that. <BR /> <BR />We all think of it being high-end celebrities and sports stars who are stalked. However, anybody can be in that position and can find themselves being stalked. In fact, many in the Chamber may well find themselves being stalked online on Twitter. We call the anonymous, faceless individuals Twitter trolls. However, you will all know that at some stages on Twitter, when the same person comes up every time, it makes you question yourself, what you are saying, your movements —.”
“I thank the Minister for bringing the Bill for its Second Reading. The Minister outlined the Bill very well. The Chair and Deputy Chair of the Committee outlined extremely well some of the areas that we need to look at. I will not go over that; I will address the Bill in general terms. When it goes to Committee Stage, we will see a forensic look being taken at how the Bill will work. We have seen that happen previously, and I am in no doubt that we will see it again. <BR /> <BR />The Chair was right when he said that the issue first came forward with Mr Frew in 2016. I was on that Committee when it came forward, and I know that he was trying to drive the issue forward in 2016. Shame on us, of course, the Assembly fell, we did not have a Government, and it just stopped dead. We let down victims, when you think about it.”
“What happened with the UVF earlier in the week was awful and terrible, and I think that we are all agreed that that should not have happened either. <BR /> <BR />However, we — MLAs and Ministers — who set the rules and regulations should not be dumping blame on the police every time. Some of us cannot even adhere to them; some of us, for political expediency, will use those rules and regulations to force our own narrative. It is utterly disgraceful. We are utterly disgraceful in standing here and pointing a critical finger at our police force when we are the ones who govern this place. We need to roll back. We need to fix what was wrong, but we do not help anybody by saying, "You are to blame", when the reality is that we are to blame.”
“It is not just about the difficult position that our police officers are finding themselves in during the COVID pandemic, but it is about the fact that while we want to be respectful and allow people to remember their dead, we are in the middle of a pandemic and there are rules and regulations that we have to adhere to. I am sick of watching the PSNI being dragged around the place by the scruff of the neck and always having to meet somebody's narrative and agenda. <BR /> <BR />This is incredibly difficult for the police to police. Do we wish that they had not made an arrest? Of course. Do we wish that this had never been on social media? Of course we do. Do we wish to be here discussing it today? No, we do not.”
“What happened in 1992 at Sean Graham bookmakers was truly horrific. Five men, some young and some old, lost their life, and many more people were affected by it. My thoughts are always with the victims and survivors of that terrible atrocity. It helped to sow division between communities, and that division has not gone, because I am witnessing it here in the House in our words and deeds, which is not helping the situation one bit. <BR /> <BR />I listened to all the contributions, and they were all fair, but only my colleague Mike Nesbitt put a clinical and analytical eye to the issues that are being faced. It is not just about what we saw on social media.”
“Minister, I welcome your remarks about our nursing workforce, who do need to be valued and recognised. Will you agree that we must not forget about our non-clinical staff, the cleaners, the porters, the chefs and the laundry workers? Without them, our NHS could not do what it is doing.”
“Minister, thank you for that. My follow-up question is very obvious. Would your Department be receptive to any bids from, say, the Department for the Economy to celebrate our economic power over the last 100 years; from the Department of Health to celebrate our NHS; or, indeed, from the Department of Agriculture to celebrate our farming during the centenary? Are you open to receiving those bids?”
“I look at this as a pure disgrace and a shame on us all, but I have a real concern that maybe we are touching only the tip of the iceberg here. Have we looked at the intergenerational effects of the issue, especially as some of the adopted children went right across the globe, which would have an effect on further family members?”
“First Minister, thank you for your statement. I look forward to reading the full report, although I am not sure that that is the right use of words.”
“I guess that we have all witnessed the unedifying disagreement between the NIO and TEO on the Troubles permanent disablement payment scheme — that rolls off the tongue, does it not? Are we in solution mode with that, and has TEO looked at asking the Secretary of State whether the £150 million that has been set aside for the Stormont House Agreement legacy mechanisms, regardless of the arguments about whether you want it or not — forget that — could be used so that the Justice Department has the money to make sure that it gets up and running on time?”
“Will you outline how we are, in the short, medium or long term, trying to address those staffing issues?”
“I thank the Minister for bringing the report forward. It is a really good report, and I commend those who brought it to us. It addresses so many issues. There are so many questions that need to be asked, but we are limited to one. Recommendation 6 talks about human resource and looks at our prison officers. It makes the point that those suffering from mental health issues are not inefficient. I put a similar motion before the Assembly: unfortunately, it was not carried, but, sometimes, you can lose the battle but win the war. <BR /> <BR />Minister, you will know that metal health issues can be exacerbated by an increase in workload, which can be due to serious staffing issues. The night custody officers have serious staffing issues, which may be adding to that.”
“No words that I say in the Chamber will match what those who are abused go through daily, but the legislation will speak to them and give them support. It is the reason why we have it. We do not need to add too many words to the Bill now; it needs to get on and do what it is designed to do.”
“At the end of my contribution, I want to make one plea, which is this: men must feel that this legislation is also for them. All too often, men do not see that. We know that far more women than men are likely to be abused at home, but there are men being abused, and they need to know that this is their legislation as well. They need to lean in to it and use it for support. They need to understand that people know exactly what they are going through and that they will help them. That is my plea to men: make sure that you realise that this is also your legislation. <BR /> <BR />We will, of course, support this legislation, and I look forward to when it is up and running fully. The legislation will speak for itself.”
“It is really important that the people who deal with those suffering from domestic abuse, be it the person abused or family members who feel the effect of that abuse through its victim, are properly trained, not just to identify the sights and sounds but how to deal with the individual. That is a good add-on to this legislation. <BR /> <BR />Another useful add-on is information sharing. I have, on a previous occasion, recounted Mr Frew's story about a child going to school, so I will not do so again. However, for our children, schools having somebody to whom we can pass information when there is domestic abuse is a core element of the legislation. It is incredibly important. I thank all Members for ensuring that it was included in the Bill. <BR /> <BR />Rather than going into detail on the next matter, I will make my remarks very generic.”
“She gave that commitment in the Chamber on a number of occasions, and it is up to the Assembly to hold her to account on that. She would not have it any other way. <BR /> <BR />My last concern was parental alienation. I wanted that to be included in the Bill, but it was not to be. Early on, in discussion with departmental solicitors and experts in the subject, it was explained to us exactly how the Bill would ensure that parental alienation could be domestic abuse. Although I was happy with that, I would have liked to have seen it in the Bill. <BR /> <BR />The Bill is robust, particularly on coercive control, and it ensures that people are trained.”
“Even after we have completed this process, issued the legislation and got it operating and resourced correctly, some people will say, "You missed this". There will always be concerns. People are concerned that there will be no domestic abuse commissioner. I accept that people wanted one. My party and I would rather have a victims of crime commissioner, and I hope that the Minister takes forward that point, as she said she would. However, I understand that there are people out there who will feel that they have got less than they wanted. <BR /> <BR />Legal aid is another complex issue. I will not go into it in any length. People have raised it, and, no doubt, they will do so again. However, I am clear about the commitment that the Justice Minister has given on that.”
“It is right to thank the Justice Minister and all her staff for their work in bringing the Bill forward. It is right to thank the Chairperson and Deputy Chairperson of the Justice Committee for their diligent scrutiny and all the members of the Justice Committee for the effort that they put into the Bill. <BR /> <BR />There was blood, sweat and tears from the Committee in creating where we are today. People took ownership of it and were moved to make sure that it was the right piece of legislation. Domestic abuse is insidious and intergenerational. It affects individuals, families and our society. We need this strong legislation so that people can use it to stop the harm caused by domestic abuse and coercive control. <BR /> <BR />There are, of course, some issues with the Bill.”
“Today is "blue Monday", which is, apparently, the most depressing day of the year. However, if we have to lift ourselves up with anything, it is the progress of this Bill and drawing it to an end. Perhaps it is not an end but the beginning of drawing the process of creating the Bill to an end. It has been a long process; it started long before the current Justice Minister was in place. Since we came back in January of last year, it has been a very speedy process, and we really have put our shoulders to the wheel. <BR /> <BR />This is a complex Bill, even for those who have followed it, including Justice Committee members, Department of Justice officials and others. It has been really hard to follow at times, and I have learnt so much from the process.”
“I thank the Minister. I think that I will get a positive response to this, but can the Minister outline how many of those who were released early on that scheme have reoffended and been returned to prison?”
“I thank the Minister. Apologies that I am going to ask a question that has already been asked, but I will just pop it in. It follows on from what Miss Woods and Mr Carroll said about cooperation. Given the fact that the vaccine roll-out in Northern Ireland has been exceptional and that the Irish Republic is behind, we could end up with a situation in which, because it has to follow the EU rules, the Irish Republic is well behind while we are well ahead. How are we going to balance that? Is there any way in which we in the UK can help the Irish Republic, or is it hampered completely by EU rules?”
“That is the stark position that I find myself in. It is unenviable.”
“My vote will be a protest vote, as will those at Westminster, because the Government there, supported by Labour, will vote it through. As a unionist, my job is to maintain, protect and promote the union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, so I will have to make it work. If I do not make it work, the people of Northern Ireland will suffer even more, and it will damage our union even more.”
“<BR /> <BR />The European Union will not ratify the trade and cooperation deal until the end of February, so it is still a draft deal and will remain so until that date. The First Minister is right when she says that we are not at the end of the Brexit saga. It is a great Brexit, but it is certainly not a UK Brexit. Northern Ireland has been separated from the United Kingdom in trade and justice. The Ulster Unionist Party warned of that impact on Northern Ireland's position within the UK, but we were ignored. Instead, some followed the lead of English nationalists who have no interest whatever in Northern Ireland. We have to face that fact. <BR /> <BR />I cannot support or be in favour of the trade and cooperation agreement.”
“Northern Ireland will remain under the direct jurisdiction of the European Commission and the European Court of Justice without having any elected representation or elected input. Northern Ireland will be ruled by committee, and some in the Assembly salivate at the idea of that. <BR /> <BR />The draft trade agreement allows cooperation on the peaceful use of nuclear energy, including training cooperation, guarding, movement and transfers. That includes radioisotopes in medicines and radiation in agriculture. <BR /> <BR />I note how the Belfast Agreement has been undermined, at best, and breached, at worst, with no consideration from those in the Assembly and in the European Parliament who said that we must protect the agreement at all costs.”
“Surely that is a good thing, but, already, I see people trying to undermine it. I do not get it. We will continue to coordinate with Europol and Eurojust, and I note that the European arrest warrant will be replaced by a surrender agreement. I will look to see which friendly nation adheres to the limited grounds for refusal that are mentioned in the agreement. In respect of law enforcement, biometric material, including DNA and fingerprints, and vehicle registration details will be shared between the UK and EU member states via member state contact points, but I note the loss of access to the Schengen information system. That may affect cross-border and wider European Union judicial cooperation in such areas as missing persons.”
“So I take note. I note the insidious Northern Ireland protocol that forms part of the trade and cooperation agreement. There will be a trade border down the Irish Sea, separating Northern Ireland from the rest of the United Kingdom. I note that the DNA of some unionists is on that protocol. I note that the EU ERASMUS+ will be replaced by the UK Turing scheme, no doubt creating further division in Northern Ireland as some, internally and externally, try to undermine the United Kingdom as they try to create an educational resource. However, people in Northern Ireland, be they British or Irish citizens, will have the choice of both. <BR /> <BR />The European health insurance card will continue for all citizens who hold one until its run-out date. It will be replaced in the UK by the global health insurance card.”
“Happy new year to all of you for the coming days. I hope that it can be peaceful. <BR /> <BR />The motion asks for the Assembly to note:”
“It was a really good debate, and I thank you all very much for that. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. In my naivety, I gave way to the Member, and I should not have done. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for your time.”
“I did not want to leave the EU, but we are leaving the EU. I do not want the Northern Ireland protocol. I did not want any borders. I did not want borders North/South, and I did not want borders east-west. I wanted to talk to my friends down in the Irish Republic with no change whatsoever, and I will do, and I will talk to my friends in England, Scotland and Wales with no change whatsoever, but within the psyche, I suppose, that we are looking at a border down the Irish Sea. <BR /> <BR />People need to understand those fears, because those are the same fears that some people had two years ago that there would be a hard border between North and South. That was a genuine fear, and we addressed that. We cannot now just bat away other people's fears about a border east and west.”
“Emma focused on her constituency of Mid Ulster and funding for community facilities and the cross-border management of waste. All the realities that we have to deal with. <BR /> <BR />Matthew O'Toole talked about the extension to the Brexit transition period. It did not happen, we did not get it. We might say that we should have got it, but we did not. We are where we are, and we have to move forward. Yes, there will be damage to the all-island economy, but we have to mitigate that damage. <BR /> <BR />Caoimhe Archibald talked about the delays in the protocol. All that time waiting for the protocol and it was sitting there, and we pretty much got what we thought we were going to get with just a few caveats. As far as I am concerned, as an Ulster Unionist, I did not want Brexit, but we have Brexit.”
“It is a fair point to put across because some people are looking at this and saying, "Actually, you lot made a real mistake, and I am going to take advantage of that mistake". That is the world that we live in, and I do not have a problem with that. At the end of the day, we are going to have to make it work. <BR /> <BR />Emma Sheerin said that some of the councils talked about the realities, even some that were pro-Brexit. She talked about the reality of what they have to face. It is absolutely right. My council area was pro-Brexit, but it is having to deal with issues that it could not have foreseen all those years ago when we were going through the referendum. There is consistency of confusion, and we have to remember that.”
“Interestingly, the councils did not really engage on the Northern Ireland frameworks; it was not something that they spoke up about. Christopher mentioned that when he talked about a role for the British-Irish Council on the common frameworks. It may not be a perfect idea, but it is worth exploring. They need to have the proper structures, but it is certainly something to be explored to help all these islands and the people in them. Christopher mentioned the poor communication, and, of course, it was poor. <BR /> <BR />After Christopher Stalford, came Martina. They are like a double act. Martina Anderson fought Brexit all over again, focusing on the funding gaps for farmers, fisheries and divergence from some EU rules: we will be following EU rules not British rules. It felt like an EU wet dream at some stages.”