Doug Beattie
Upper Bann · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I absolutely accept what the Minister said earlier, which is that she would not have been able to get such a Bill out of the Executive. That is the sentence that you would have heard from me, Minister, had you waited a minute. I absolutely accept that that is the case, and I think that we all do.”
“Just a minute. Minister, I guess that I disagree with you, because I too did my work. I accept that I do not have the resources that you and your Department have, but I sat with the Public Prosecution Service and talked through this very thing, and it said that it was workable.”
“The Director of Public Prosecutions would look at the seriousness of the offence — death by dangerous driving, risk of harm to the public, serial arson, assault, sexual behaviour that is a danger to the public — and he would also look at the best interests of the child, because we have not got away from diversionary measures here.”
“Had James Bulger been murdered by two nine-year-olds, we would probably be having a discussion about the minimum age of criminal responsibility being nine, such was the anger in 1993 when that horrendous crime took place. All the ages are arbitrary, and we need to deal with that.”
“That raises the minimum age of criminal responsibility from 10 to 12. It is not what some people, who want it to be 14, want; it is not what others, who want it to stay at 10, want; but I believe that 12 is right. Why do I presume that a child can commit a criminal offence at 12 years of age?”
“In essence, however, that amendment would raise the minimum age of criminal responsibility from 10 to 14, apart from in the case of the offences in that closed list. It has been said many times, and I will not repeat what has been said, but the closed list does not make sense to me either.”
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“Those are the words that I used when I opened the debate on conversion therapy in 2021. The motion passed. It passed because we spoke, looked at people's concerns and addressed them. I have always been clear that conversion therapy is humiliating and harmful. I go back to that piece to say that we need to work together. Does this motion bring us forward from when we had the debate in 2021, or does it leave us stuck in another argument? My genuine concern is that it may not bring us forward. <BR /> <BR />I understand people's concerns about religious freedom. The right to pray and preach and to give counsel and pastoral care to someone who seeks support should not be diminished.”
“I suppose that what I am saying is that I am all right with the motion. I am happy to support it. I am more than happy to support the amendment; there is no issue with that. I look forward to that legislation coming forward, because that will give us the ability to challenge it. It will give us the ability to challenge whether we need a hate crime commissioner. It will give us the ability to debate it. That is what this is all about. I just do not want it to be rushed through. I certainly want to make sure that we protect freedom of speech and freedom of expression. Let us do it right, and let us not rush it.”
“Yes, absolutely. We had a stunted mandate the last time. We have a stunted mandate this time. Things move and change, and we are now in a different position. I am looking at this with you and saying that, if you are going to bring that forward, you need time to bring forward baseline legislation as opposed to trying to rush something through. It is slightly odd that I am arguing a point in your favour on this one, but that is where we stand: we want legislation that is fit for purpose. <BR /> <BR />When I look at the motion, I am reassured, because it says that the Assembly:”
“I will. I have absolutely seen cases where people have been totally abused.”
“Whether we like it or not, some people use things like that for their own benefit, but I have absolutely seen —.”
“I have no issue with that, but I do think that, somehow, in all of this, we are just creating a list of protected groups, when, actually, every one of us can be open to organised hate in some shape or form that will not fall under those groups. I have a concern that we are setting a hierarchy in this legislation and creating crimes against certain people.”
“Recommendation 9 is about adding to the protected characteristics of age, sex and gender. It states:”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. He is right: it absolutely does. The point that I was going to make later is that we cannot rush into this, because we really have to stop and consider it. In truth, I would not want some form of legislation to be rushed through just to placate certain people, only for us to then spend all our time picking it apart. I would rather have legislation that we can all sit down and consider on its merits. I agree with the Member that a Bill needs to come forward and it could — probably should — stand alone. However, I am not in agreement that it should be rushed through without full scrutiny. The standard baseline for it, when it comes forward, is that it should be something that we can all start to work with as opposed to pick apart. <BR /> <BR />I will go back to the recommendations.”
“Yes. That is the reality of life in many ways, and we have to be careful not to be offended by some things and not to try to make the law be able to protect absolutely everything. <BR /> <BR />The Marrinan report is really far-reaching. It contains 34 recommendations, and I will tell you now that we could spend two hours just going through each one of those recommendations. Recommendation 1, which is about the definition of a hate crime, states:”
“I will be quite brief. It is a really good motion, but it is just so massive, in truth. It is certainly worthy of debate, because nobody should promote hate of any kind, regardless of whether that is due to religion, sex, disability, sexual orientation, race or age. Neither should hate be tolerated in isolating people because of the way they look, the way they speak or the place where they live. However, the reality is that eradicating some prejudices, unconscious bias or bias is incredibly difficult, no matter how you try. I think that there is even an anti-ginger bias group out there.”
“We sometimes go through anniversaries, pay lip service and talk about numbers and statistics, but forget that every person who served had a family and everyone who died had loved ones. It is important that we stop and remember them. We in Northern Ireland can be justly proud of the actions of the Royal Ulster Rifles; I know I certainly am.”
“As the 2nd Battalion crossed the water and landed on Queen Red Beach, which was part of the Sword Beach system, its sister battalion, the 1st Battalion Royal Ulster Rifles, was flying overhead in gliders, and it landed in Ranville as part of Operation Mallard. <BR /> <BR />As well as people from Northern Ireland, many people from the Republic of Ireland and from throughout the United Kingdom served in the Royal Ulster Rifles. The Royal Ulster Rifles played a unique part in the D-Day landings, and we have to remember that. It was a pivotal moment in our history. It was the start of getting rid of Nazi Germany and the scourge of fascism and Hitler, and many people made the ultimate sacrifice.”
“Eighty years ago today, ships were gathering to create the largest armada that the world has ever known. The ships were loaded with men and materiel, and, throughout the United Kingdom, people were doing their final rehearsals for the invasion of Normandy. <BR /> <BR />I am wearing the regimental tie of the Royal Irish Regiment, which is an amalgamation of the Ulster Defence Regiment and the Royal Irish Rangers. I served in the Royal Irish Rangers, which was an amalgamation of the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, the Royal Irish Fusiliers and the Royal Ulster Rifles. The Royal Ulster Rifles, my father's regiment, had a unique role in D-Day because the whole regiment was involved.”
“Thank you, Minister. I am glad that you have made a recovery and are back with us today. University application numbers are due to rise by 20% by 2030. What is the plan to increase student places?”
“Thanks, First Minister. The point that I am getting at is that the ministerial code no longer reflects legislation. Has the Attorney General given a view on the validity of the present ministerial code?”
“In April 2021, the House debated a motion that I proposed on the harmful practices of conversion therapy. It passed with a clear majority. Will the Minister detail what his Department has done since that vote?”
“Minister, if — I repeat the word "if" — there is a major increase in funding through the June monitoring round and if you take that into account, do you believe that the Budget process that was run at the Executive should be delayed and rerun?”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. I know the hard work that the Department has done on support for operational prison staff. Recommendation 6(c) of the report recommended that a human resources team be set up at Prison Service headquarters to deal with the bespoke matters in the Prison Service individuals' issues, which used to be the case. Does that mean nearly reverting to what we had previously, as opposed to issues being dealt with by the Northern Ireland Civil Service (NICS) HR?”
“Nobody should want to or try to perpetuate war around the globe, but we have to live in the real world, and, in the real world, the defence, security and aerospace industry is absolutely massive. If, in Northern Ireland, we were to get our fair share of the UK's allocation towards defence spending and the wider private defence industry, it could be absolutely transformational for the Northern Ireland economy. <BR /> <BR />I see it as an opportunity. It is an opportunity to use Northern Ireland within the defence structures of the United Kingdom to bring more resource to this part of the kingdom. Rebuild RAF Aldergrove, have more Royal Navy assets, improve our private defence systems, improve our cyberwarfare capabilities, make Northern Ireland the hub for cybertechnology and actually bring more money into the economy.”
“Upgrading Aldergrove would allow it to become a central hub for the rapid intake of forces and material from the United States and Canada into Europe if things were to get bad in Europe. That would be incredibly important globally. We have allowed that station to degrade over the years, but we can turn that around. Add to that an increase in the Royal Navy presence in the north-west and we will have the ability to cover the UK and the EU western approaches, particularly the Greenland-Iceland-United Kingdom gap and the underwater cabling from the US onto these islands. <BR /> <BR />I revert to what I said at the start of my contribution. I will not criticise anybody if they have an ethical stance on this, because war is absolutely abhorrent.”
“We are already there. We should be able to garner from that more economic benefits. The United Kingdom Government have announced that they are increasing their defence budget by £75 billion over the next five years. That will have a huge impact, and it is vital that Northern Ireland receives its fair share of the moneys for defence manufacturing and development. That could take us from £1 billion per year to £3 billion per year for the Northern Ireland economy. I go back to what I said: I know that there is an ethical question here. I am not arguing against that. I am looking at the economics. <BR /> <BR />Northern Ireland must be an integral part of UK defence structures. That means upgrading Aldergrove station to revert it back to RAF Aldergrove and make it a home, once more, for fast jets.”
“The other part of the story is that the private defence industry accounts for £25·3 billion a year in the UK. Scotland has a turnover of £7 billion, which equates to £3·2 billion going into their economy. In England and Wales, the figure is £16·4 billion, and, in Northern Ireland, it is £1·9 billion, which puts only £0·9 billion in value into our economy. <BR /> <BR />Many people do not see how aerospace, defence and security are totally interlinked. Right now, as we sit here, cyberbattles are taking place right across the globe, this island and the United Kingdom, and they have lethal and non-lethal effects. There are people fighting cyberbattles today. It is as real a war as one that you would see on the television where man is fighting man. <BR /> <BR />Northern Ireland is uniquely placed to be at the forefront of that cybertechnology.”
“Starstreak, a high-velocity missile that is designed, developed and manufactured in Belfast, is used by 10 countries around the world. It is a portable air defence system. The RapidRanger is a mobile integrated defence control system, and there are space propulsion and satellite-based positioning systems. The propulsion competency centre was established because of the high-precision engineering skills here in Northern Ireland. Thales employs hundreds, puts millions of pounds into our economy and helps to build skills with apprenticeships through Ulster University and research through Queen's University. Thales has more capacity to create more jobs, more apprenticeships and more research and to put more money into our economy. <BR /> <BR />That is only part of the equation.”
“<BR /> <BR />I served during the Cold War. I know what it was like guarding Rudolf Hess in Spandau prison in a divided Berlin. I know what it was like to face off with Russians. When West Germany was divided from East Germany, I knew what it was like to stand opposed to the Russians. It was a dangerous place. <BR /> <BR />The present-day reality is that Northern Ireland has shown that it can provide high-quality defence equipment and development at pace, and that can be viewed as an economic opportunity. We heard from my colleague from Upper Bann about Thales, a first-class defence company that creates the next generation light anti-tank weapon (NLAW) that is used by eight countries around the world. It is the main anti-armour weapon being used in Ukraine.”
“<BR /> <BR />At present, we have major conflicts and tensions in the Middle East, throughout Africa, between China and Taiwan, between North and South Korea and, clearly, the Russian expansionism in Ukraine. Countries are concerned. We are already seeing an increase in defence spending across the globe and an increase in collective defence: NATO; the European Defence Agency; Australia, the United Kingdom and the United States (AUKUS); the Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO); and the China-Russia economic pact. That is all fuelling the industry, which is a defence industry and an economic industry. The war in Ukraine has completely changed the geopolitical landscape. Many will view the world now in a pre-conflict stage. Since the Cold War, we have never been closer to global conflict than we are now.”
“Some will view the motion through an ethical lens, and I will not be critical of anybody who does so, but I will view it through an economic and geopolitical lens in order to understand the wider issue. It is a much wider issue because the world is a far more dangerous place. Some will say that conflict is fuelled by the defence industry. Others will say that it is fuelled by profit or by the claiming of a country's resources and minerals to keep wider industry on the move, all of which fuel conflict. They are absolutely right — they do. However, that does not take away from the fact that we are in a far more dangerous place than we have been in many years.”
“Her fellow teachers, her pupils and their parents will all be proud of Mrs Hawthorne's achievements and will wish her well, and I know that the House will also wish her well. They are now in the game of fundraising to make sure that she can get there and has the equipment to be able to present her ideas. If anybody here has the ability to help with that fundraising or knows of a really good Minister who might be able to give some money towards it, that would be very much appreciated.”
“I hope to lift the mood a little. This year's Science on Stage Europe Festival will take place in mid-August in Turku, Finland. I will give a shout-out to Mrs Hawthorne, head of science at Banbridge High School, who has been selected to be part of the UK team that will travel to Finland to present its innovative teaching ideas. Mrs Hawthorne is the only teacher from Northern Ireland who has been selected to attend, and she will be one of 450 primary and secondary school teachers from all over Europe who will share their most creative STEM ideas at stands, workshops and highlight sessions. <BR /> <BR />The theme is "Sustainability in STEM", and Mrs Hawthorne's ideas will form part of a programme of events that will include over 30 countries.”
“However, we need to be absolutely honest about where we are with our people, who are looking in: 'Safeguarding the Union' achieved absolutely zero, after two years of one-to-one negotiation with the Government.”
“We all need a bit of honesty and integrity sometimes. The protocol created the Irish Sea border. It was neither serious nor sensible. It certainly did not brilliantly outmanoeuvre the Brussels trap. The Windsor framework did not get rid of the Irish Sea border. Two years of boycott did not get rid of the Irish Sea border. 'Safeguarding the Union' did not get rid of the Irish Sea border. Paragraph 46 of that document is completely incorrect in what it states. That document should never have been signed up to. <BR /> <BR />We have an issue with immigration throughout the whole of the United Kingdom. Immigration is an issue globally, right across these islands, Europe and the world, and we need to deal with it sensibly.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer, which was twofold. In the first part, he disregarded the report, which was disappointing. It is clear that farmers are under severe pressure and family farming needs support. The Minister has outlined that he is not willing to legislate to require wholesalers, retailers and processors to pay at least the costs of production plus inflation-linked margins beyond that. How else will he protect or support farmers in the coming months and years?”
“Childcare is absolutely the right project, as are special educational needs provision and efforts to dealing with waiting lists, but they have to be part of something much bigger than a project dealing with one issue or another. That is where we are lacking. I hope that the Programme for Government comes out soon. The Programme for Government should have informed the Budget, rather than the Budget informing the Programme for Government. We got it the wrong way round. <BR /> <BR />I will happily support the motion — it is a good motion — and the amendment.”
“I think that Paula Bradshaw outlined really well some of the issues that create that dysfunctionality. <BR /> <BR />There are multiple documents about a Programme for Government. I have them sitting here. They are very glossy, and they would have given us the ability to get up and running pretty quickly. There is even a document called 'Strategic Programme Timeline', which says that a Programme for Government should be out for consultation seven weeks after an Executive are up and running. <BR /> <BR />I will finish with this: my concern is that we will end up with a makeshift, one-year Programme for Government that will deal with projects only. It will deliver projects, and they will be good projects and the right projects.”
“<BR /> <BR />There absolutely are fiscal challenges, but every time anyone hints at trying to deal with those challenges or at revenue raising, it is closed down pretty quickly. If you agree an underfunding Budget, you accept an underfunding Budget. We did not; we could not. It will not work. <BR /> <BR />I agree with all the issues mentioned by the DUP. Every single one will require a resource, but we do not have that resource or the level of engagement within the Executive that we need now. The Executive have met about six times since they were re-established, but there has been no focus whatsoever on a Programme for Government. There have been side issues and some talk about it but absolutely nothing otherwise. There is a sense that TEO is a bit dysfunctional at the moment.”
“In fact, if you look back to 2021, which was not that long ago, you will see that the previous Programme for Government went out for public consultation between January and March 2021. That Programme for Government should have had longevity for the future. It should never have been a one-, two- or three-year Programme for Government; it should have been a five- or 10-year Programme for Government. The First Minister was the deputy First Minister at the time, and her signature is at the bottom of the consultation document, as is Arlene Foster's. The consultations between the political parties and the Northern Ireland Civil Service went on from June 2022 until January 2024. There was ample time to come up with a Programme for Government.”
“It is clear, however, that a Programme for Government should be a foundation document for what we want to achieve as a Coalition Government with a long-term vision. It should be strategic and outcome-focused, not project-focused. It needs to be looked at in depth. <BR /> <BR />The Ulster Unionist Party has always had the stance that it is better to wait until a Programme for Government is agreed before running the d'Hondt process and forming the Executive. Therefore, people can go into government already knowing what the outcomes will be, and there is no more silo mentality. Funny enough, we could have achieved that. We disagreed with the boycott, but it gave us two years in which to approve a Programme for Government before we went in. We had the ability to have a Programme for Government up and running really quickly.”
“One has to ask, "Why can you not support the motion?", because it is factually correct. The Executive have been restored for 100 days. There are huge fiscal challenges facing the Executive. We have been underfunded, and we continue to be funded below need. Those are all facts. There was extensive engagement between the Executive political parties and the Northern Ireland Civil Service around a Programme for Government. We absolutely support the motion. <BR /> <BR />The amendment is absolutely factually correct as well. It lays out what we said in those negotiations would be our priorities. We can easily support the amendment. It does not negatively affect the main motion. We have no problem either way.”
“We support a two-state solution, as per the Oslo agreement. We support de-escalation in the area. However, we cannot support the motion, which is naive at best and misses so many points.”
“We support the immediate release of all hostages. We support an increase in humanitarian aid. We support an international response, with an Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE)-type organisation drawn from the regional countries.”
“We have all ignored Iran's malign influence in the region through the Islamic Revolutionary Guard, Hezbollah in the Lebanon, Hamas in Gaza and the Houthis in the Yemen, all of which are linked to the Russian Federation via organisations such as the Wagner Group. It is the same in Syria and in Iraq. It is really difficult to stand here and say that there should be an arms embargo, but maybe the question about arms sales is an ethical one. That is a different question, and we have to look at it in the round, but it is difficult to isolate one country when it is surrounded in such a way. <BR /> <BR />I know how the debate will end up. It will be a case of, "You didn't support the motion, so you don't support peace". That is how it will end up, so let me summarise and make it clear that we support an immediate ceasefire.”
“A full-blown engagement in Rafah will be devastating. Israel has a right to defend itself, but it must do so within the laws of armed conflict: necessity, proportionality, distinction and humanity. It is absolutely clear, without a doubt, that Israel has, at times, gone beyond those laws of armed conflict. <BR /> <BR />My last point is about arms sales. The UK's arms sales to Israel are limited. They are very small; in fact, the vast majority of them are navigation systems for some of Israel's aircraft and radar systems. Those radar systems are needed to defend against the rockets that come in, and we now say that we want to take them away. Whether we like it or not, Israel is surrounded by hostile nations.”
“It seems to gloss over Hamas, which is a terrorist organisation; Hamas, which throws men off the top of buildings because they are gay; Hamas, which uses rape as a weapon of war; Hamas, which kidnaps and abuses children; Hamas, which strips out water infrastructure to create missiles to fire at Israeli cities; Hamas, which has a stated aim of the total destruction of Israel. That is not innocent Palestinians' fault. <BR /> <BR />My second point concerns the assault in Rafah. That will be devastating for the innocent Palestinians who live there. You simply cannot put a 120-millimetre, high-explosive shell from a Merkava main battle tank through a kitchen window to kill a terrorist without affecting the family in there. You simply cannot drop a tower block with a 500-lb joint direct attack munition (JDAM) and call it "proportionality".”
“<BR /> <BR />The Gaza conflict is devastating, but so is the conflict in Sudan, with 15,000 dead and two million internally displaced, and so is the conflict in Yemen, with over 350,000 dead, including 85,000 children starved to death and four million people displaced, and not a peep out of anybody. There are conflicts in Niger, Nigeria, Mali, Chad, Congo and Ukraine: nothing. As I will tell you in a minute, Ukraine has a lot to do with what we see in the Middle East. <BR /> <BR />I will make three points — they are not necessarily related — in the hope that they will provide a bit of balance. First, I have concerns about the motion.”
“"Only the dead have seen the end of war" is what they say. War is not a video game, although, when you listen to some people, you know that, to them, it is nothing more than "Kill TV". In reality, when you are dead, you do not get a second life: you are dead. When you are maimed, you are maimed for life. When you are psychologically damaged, it will take years to rectify the issues. In some cases, they will never be rectified. War is an absolute abomination; it really is. One thing is absolutely true about war: the people who suffer are, time and time again, the innocent civilians, be they Israeli or Palestinian.”
“I thank the Minister for the statement. We always say that more engagement is good. I will ask a simple question. What is the difference between the East-West Council and the intergovernmental relations framework, a three-tier system of engagement between the UK nations, also chaired by the Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities?”
“I do not have time, unfortunately. Sorry. <BR /> <BR />There is an opportunity to make changes. I tried to table an amendment that would get us back into line on this and that would acknowledge those community and civic groups and the work that they do, and it was batted off out of hand. I cannot support this motion, because it is simply not factual. It states that it will endorse the "proposed code of practice" that was recommended in the FICT report, but none was recommended in the FICT report. I will say this to the other Members who are sitting here: how can you support this motion if it is not factual? You simply cannot.”
“I do not want to see flags flying all year round and going into tatters; I really do not. However, to fix the problem, it is not just to throw it towards TEO and say, "Come up with enforceable rules, and they will all stick to them". The FICT report did not say that. Not once did the FICT report say that, but there is an opportunity to make changes —.”
“The report said that local community groups and local civic groups made progress. I work with a group in Portadown called Regenerate, which the Member will know very well. That group worked extremely hard from 2015 to come up with a flags protocol. It fundamentally changed the flying of flags in the town of Portadown and stretched out. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. There are huge issues there, and I will go back to the flying of paramilitary flags. I cannot support the flying of paramilitary flags of any shape or form, but that group worked hard. If we try to bypass civic groups and community groups such as that one, all you will see is more flags. <BR /> <BR />I get it that the Member is frustrated. I get it that all of us are frustrated. I am absolutely frustrated about this.”
“Why do it again? If you put it to the centre and it does not work, why do it again? It will not work, and that is what this motion is doing. It is putting it back to the Executive Office, and it will not work. The FICT report also says:”
“Paragraph 11.48 does not say that. It says, quite clearly, "possible code of practice". Therefore, there is nothing in the report that says that there is a proposed code of practice. My amendment tries to bring the motion back in lane so that we can support it. Let us be honest that the report states:”