Dame Chi Onwurah
MP for Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West · Labour · United Kingdom
“An extraordinary debate is going on right now inside and outside AI companies about whether the possibility of AI destroying humanity is more or less than 10%. The European Union is moving ahead with a comprehensive AI regulatory framework, but the UK continues to rely on existing regulation.”
“The Pope also highlighted how the billions of online digital twins constitute an unprecedented concentration of power in the hands of a small number of men. Among the many consequences of the 40 years of neoliberalism repeatedly called out by the Prime Minister is a libertarian attitude to technology.”
“But this stealth digital twinning violates the integrity, uniqueness and very personhood of our constituents and of all of us. Digital twins can take many forms, from content creation algorithms and deepfakes to chatbots that reflect aspects of our personalities back at us. It is particularly worrying when children are the target.”
“The automated version of our kids will grow with them, using the power of AI to target advertising and products at them, and worse. The Science, Innovation and Technology Committee has heard about some of the tragic consequences of online grooming by algorithms and chatbots—a vulnerable boy persuaded to kill himself; a vulnerable girl fed…”
“In the arts, entertainment and tech industries, many performers are agreeing to the creation and use of digital replicas as part of their work—think of ABBA Voyage. But performers increasingly encounter unauthorised digital replicas of themselves, which pose a threat to their career, livelihood and reputation.”
“Since then, deepfakes have proliferated. The hon. Member for Mid Norfolk (George Freeman) was shown crossing the Floor in Parliament to join Reform, to his constituents’ consternation and his own—it was a fake. Then there were the horrendous photos of naked women and girls that Elon Musk’s AI created on demand.”
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“The development of alternative methods, and the advancement of AI and advanced computer modelling techniques, or in silico models, mean that we should be able to greatly reduce reliance on animal testing. In his passionate contribution, the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Martyn Day) highlighted the ways in which the use of animals is not always appropriate for research on human diseases and treatments, as did the hon. Member for Glasgow North West (Carol Monaghan). I recognise that, but I note that there are a range of opinions on human-specific medical research.”
“I was given real hope that replacements for animal testing are around the scientific corner. I am pleased that the Government have a policy of limiting the number of animals used in science, and I am grateful for the fact that non-animal methods of research have developed and improved, thanks to the work of brilliant scientific minds, not least in our United Kingdom. We must also recognise the tireless work of animal rights activists, some of whom have been mentioned in the debate, in progressing that ambition. Labour supports the three R’s approach—that is, working to replace, refine and reduce the use of animals in research and testing—and I pay tribute to the National Centre for the Replacement, Refinement and Reduction of Animals in Research for its work with scientists to achieve that.”
“We have heard about human-specific medical research techniques, which are sometimes termed new approach methodologies or non-animal methods. Such methods can truly be at the forefront of scientific innovation. They include, as was mentioned, 3D tissue culture, also known as organs on a chip. That tissue culture mimics organ behaviour and can be used to study biological and disease processes. Other methods include computer-based modelling, such as that done by Bit Bio, the synthetic biology spin-out from Cambridge University; I met people there recently. It also provides human cells for research, drug discovery and cell therapy. Recently, I spoke at SynBioBeta, the synthetic biology and bio-engineering conference. The range and potential of synthetic biology and of bio-engineering to address testing and trial challenges is stunning.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Charles. I draw your attention and that of the House to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe), on securing this important debate on human-specific medical research techniques. I pay tribute to his deeply informed knowledge of the subject, and to his advocacy for the ending of animal testing. I recognise the important role of Animal Free Research in progressing that important ambition. I am glad to have the opportunity to question the Government on the subject, and to reiterate the Labour party’s message that we must work to end harmful and unnecessary animal testing once and for all.”
“Like many Members from all parties, I am constantly contacted by refugees who are desperate to know what is happening to their asylum claim after years of waiting, so I asked the Home Office how many refugees in Newcastle had been waiting for one, two, three, four and five years. The answer came back that the Home Office does not know—it does not even record the data. Instead of indulging in unworkable, unethical, illegal and unaffordable flights of Rwandan fantasy, why does the Home Secretary not focus on her day job and fix the asylum backlog?”
“T7. My constituents want community policing. Kim McGuinness, the police and crime commissioner for Northumbria, has put in place a redeployment programme to get an extra 134 officers into neighbourhoods, but that will not make up for the 1,100 officers and the £148 million that we have lost due to budget cuts. And before the Minister mentions “plans”, that will still leave us 400 officers short. Why have the Tories failed so badly to get police officers on to the beat?”
“Having crashed the economy, impoverished so many of my constituents with the Tory mortgage premium and utterly failed to deliver the economic prosperity that they need, the Government’s one policy that was supposed to distract from all this chaos is now shown to be, as we have always said, unworkable, as well as being immoral and eye-wateringly expensive. Why does the Home Secretary not just fix the asylum system, instead of trying to outsource it?”
“At age 17, my constituent Danny Weatherson was convicted of shoplifting, with a recommended term of 15 months. Seventeen years later, he has only just been granted parole, in a justice system that seems too under-resourced to progress his case. Imprisonment for public protection is a complex area, and many who serve such sentences undoubtedly do present a threat to the public, but does the Minister agree that discussions on reform should take place on a cross-party basis, with the voices of victims and justice campaigners heard, and that a functioning probation system is a prerequisite?”
“As we celebrate Armed Forces Week, let us celebrate the skills of our armed forces personnel and their value in civilian life. The Army’s life skills policy and holistic approach to transition do just that. Nevertheless, the number of veterans claiming universal credit has risen by 50% in the last year and the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers tells me that over half its welfare cases are about employment and finance issues. In these difficult circumstances, why have the Government chosen to halve the number of armed forces employment champions in jobcentres?”
“On Tuesday I had the privilege of discussing with Ukrainian telecommunications operator Kyivstar the challenges it faces. As a telecoms network engineer, I want to put on record my absolute admiration for what it is doing to change network design, investing in new technologies to maintain service and coverage in the midst of Putin’s illegal war. Given that it is Putin’s illegal war, should the frozen Russian assets not pay for investment in critical national infrastructure? Will the Minister set out when that money will start to flow?”
“Across the north-east, 120,000 children are impacted by universal credit deductions. Take my constituent Amanda: she has two small children, yet her entire personal allowance of £300 a month was deducted, and on top of that she was sanctioned because of tech issues with her work journal. I have worked to support her, as has Citizens Advice Newcastle, but of course she had to go to a food bank. Does the Minister think that is a working system?”
“6. Whether her Department is taking steps to support the sustainability of local (a) swimming pools, (b) leisure centres and (c) sports grounds.”
“Elswick swimming pool is a wonderful enabler of physical and mental health, serving communities who have some of the highest levels of deprivation and health inequalities in the country. It could do more if social prescribing were enabled, but instead, it faces an absolute crisis because of rising energy costs and the cost of living crisis hitting income. The Minister says that money is available, but it has received none. Can he tell me what he is doing to ensure that Elswick swimming pool survives and thrives?”
“The single greatest increase in my productivity as a Member of Parliament is probably due to the introduction of the Android tablet that I am holding. It enables me to share messages and casework instantly with my office, and I thank the Parliamentary Digital Service for providing it. Far from replacing us, technology can help us. Artificial intelligence could, for example, identify requests from constituents in an inbox flooded with PR emails, or automatically monitor the length of time the Home Office takes to respond to us so that I can raise it with you, Mr Speaker. Will the hon. Gentleman work with service providers such as Microsoft and Mimecast, and open-source providers, to ensure that we are always benefiting from the progress in technology?”
“The Minister says that abortion is “a matter of conscience” for the House, but it is also a matter of women’s mental and physical health. Surely Parliament has a duty to ensure that there is a consistent, humane and modern legislative framework that supports women’s wellbeing. On that point, could he confirm whether women’s personal data in relation to that medical treatment remains private and under their control?”
“It is now 127 weeks of uncertainty, delay and broken promises since the Conservatives took us out of the world’s biggest and most prestigious science fund, Horizon Europe. Our scientists, universities and businesses have paid the price in lost jobs and investment, so will the Minister confirm or deny the reports that negotiations to rejoin Horizon have stalled because his Government are pushing for a reduced fee to reflect what they believe is a lasting reduction in grants won by UK scientists? If they have permanently damaged our success rate, should the Minister not be trying to fix that, rather than claim a discount?”
“The typical household’s mortgage payments have risen threefold in the last two years, yet in the north-east the typical wage packet is lower than when the Conservatives came to power 13 years ago. The Minister refuses to take any responsibility for the economic misery his Government are inflicting, despite having flagrantly and blatantly crashed the economy less than a year ago. Will he tell my constituents why they should carry on paying the price of Conservatism?”
“Recent figures from the North East Child Poverty Commission show that, over the past nine years, more than 50,000 babies, children and young people have been pulled into poverty by successive Conservative Governments, yet the north-east has fantastic potential. We have great universities, fantastic start-ups, highly productive manufacturing and access to almost unlimited clean energy. Can we have a debate in Government time on an industrial strategy to realise the north-east’s economic potential, for the benefit of our young people and working families?”
“How does the Minister think the words “an appropriate level of protection for personal data” should be understood by the Information Commissioner? Is it in the light of the duties that follow, or what?”
“I am sure the Minister will agree that we in the UK are fortunate to have world leaders in digital verification, including iProov, Yoti and Onfido. I hope the Minister agrees that for those organisations to continue their world-leading role, they need clarification and understanding of the direction of Government and how this legislation relates to that direction. Finally, I hope the Minister will agree that digital identity is a global business. Will he say a few words about how he has worked with, or is working with, other countries to ensure that the digital verification services model set out in this legislation is complementary to other services and interoperable as appropriate, and that it builds on the learnings of other digital verification services?”
“Will the Minister set out his vision and tell us how he sees the services being regulated, what the governance model will be, how the office—which will sit, as I understand it, in the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology—will relate to this legislation, and whether it will be independent of Government? Will the Minister also help us to understand the relationship between the digital verification services set out in the Bill and other initiatives across Government on digital identity, such as the Government Digital Service’s One Login service, which we understand will be operated across Government services, and the initiatives of the Home Office’s fraud strategy? Is there a relationship between them, or are they separate initiatives? If they are separate, might that be confusing for the sector?”
“Friend said, the Government propose to establish an office for digital identities and attributes, which I understand is not a regulator as such. It would be good to have clarity on the position, as there is no discussion in the Bill of the duties of the new office or any kind of mechanisms for oversight or appeal. What is the relationship between the office for digital identities and attributes and this legislation? The industry has repeatedly called for clarity on the issue. I think we can all agree that a robust and effective regulatory framework is important, particularly as the Bill confers broad information-gathering powers on the Secretary of State.”
“It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley East. I have some general comments, which I intend to make now, on the digital verification services framework introduced and set out in clause 46. I also have some specific comments on subsequent clauses; I will follow your guidance, Mr Hollobone, if it is your view that my comments relate to other clauses and should be made at a later point. Like my hon. Friend, I recognise the importance of digital verification services and the many steps that the Government are taking to support them, but I am concerned about the lack of coherence between the steps set out in the Bill and other initiatives, consultations and activities elsewhere in Government. As my hon.”
“I appreciate the Minister’s clarification that the office will be a group of civil servants, but I do not see that set out in the Bill, in the clause that we are currently debating. Am I wrong?”
“I thank the Minister for providing greater clarification, but if the office is not a separate body, it cannot be claimed to be independent of Government, which means that the governance of digital verification services is not independent. Will he confirm that?”
“Is there an international element to the office for digital identities and attributes? Everyone on the Committee agrees that this is a very important area, and it will only get more important as digital verification becomes even more essential for our everyday working lives. What discussions is the Minister having with the Department for Business and Trade about the kind of market that we might expect to see in digital verification services and ensuring that it is competitive, diverse and across our country?”
“Will the Minister clarify the dispute resolution process and whether the office for digital identities and attributes will have a regulatory function? Given the lack of detail on the office, I am concerned about whether it will have the necessary powers and resources. How many people does the Minister envisage working for it? Will they be full-time employees of the office, or will they be job sharing with other duties in his Department? My other questions are about something I raised earlier, to which the Minister did not refer: international co-operation and regulation. I imagine there will be instances where companies headquartered elsewhere want to offer digital verification services. Will there be compatibility issues with digital verification that is undertaken in other jurisdictions?”
“I thank the Minister for clarifying the role of the office for digital identities and attributes. Some of the comments I made on clause 46 are probably more applicable here, but I will not repeat them, as I am sure the Committee does not want to hear them a second time. However, I ask the Minister to clarify the process. If a company objects to not being approved for registration or says that it has followed the process set out by the Secretary of State but the Secretary of State does not agree, or if a dispute arises for whatever reason, what appeal process is there, if any, and who is responsible for resolving disputes? That is just one example of the clarity that is necessary for an office of this kind.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. Before he moves on to clause 60, can he set out, perhaps giving an example, where it might be appropriate to use the power in clause 59 to make arrangements for another person to take on these functions, or in what circumstances he envisages it being used?”
“Twenty billion pounds! That is the amount of money currently held up in late payments—more than the entire science budget. It should be flowing to small businesses, allowing them to innovate, develop new products, create new jobs, drive our local economies or simply stay afloat. Instead, every day thousands of our great British small and medium-sized enterprises are wasting precious time and money chasing late payments, at an estimated cost of £684 million a year. For the sake of British business, will this Government take a leaf out of Labour’s policy book and properly legislate to tackle late payments to small businesses?”
“Q11. Half the children in Newcastle upon Tyne Central are growing up in poverty. Over the last five years, the delivery of food parcels to north-east children has risen by 250%. The number of north-east children who are homeless rose by 50% last year, and on average their parents’ wages have fallen by £1,000. If any of this affects a child’s mental health, they face a five-month wait for treatment. Why are his Government making it so hard for our kids?”
“My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. Does she agree that the absence of regard for the rate of technological change, particularly the rise of artificial intelligence—datasets are now being processed at phenomenal speeds—is potentially negligent on the part of the Government?”
“I appreciate the Minister’s clarification. He has just said that the test of identification would apply when sharing the data with another authority. However, once that has been done, the test no longer applies. Does he accept that it is possible for data to be shared that could not by this test reasonably be identified but that, over time, in a different authority, could reasonably be identified, without the data subject having any redress?”
“If I understood the Minister correctly, he said that decision subjects are a subset of data subjects. Can he envisage any circumstances in which a decision subject is not included within the group “data subjects”?”
“People must feel that their rights—new rights that reflect the new environment in the workplace—are safeguarded. I hope that the Minister will agree that the principles set out in the amendment are essential to building that trust, and to ensuring a working environment in which workers feel protected and able to benefit from advances in technology.”
“It is important, as I am sure that the Minister will agree, that working people welcome and embrace the opportunities that technology can bring, both for them and for the companies and organisations they work for, but that cannot happen without trust in those technologies. For that, there need to be appropriate regulation and safeguards. Surely the Minister must therefore agree that it is time to bring forward a suite of appropriate principles that follows amendment’s principle of “a fair, inclusive and trustworthy digital environment at work.” I hope that he cannot disagree with any of that. If we are to get ourselves out of the economic stagnation and lack of growth of the last 10 or 13 years, we need to build on new technologies and productivity, but we cannot do that without the support and trust of people in the workforce.”
“Many technological changes have made work more accessible to more people: covid showed us that we could work from many different locations—indeed, Parliament successfully worked from many locations across the country. Technological changes have also made work more productive, and companies and public sector organisations are taking advantage of that increase in productivity. But some technologies have accelerated bad employment practices, driven down standards and damaged the wellbeing of workers—for example, workplace surveillance technologies such as GPS tracking, webcam monitoring and click monitoring, which encroach on workers’ privacy and autonomy. My constituents often say that they feel that technology is something that is done to them, rather than something that has their consent and empowers them.”
“I rise to speak briefly in support of the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley East and to emphasise the points that she made regarding the importance of putting forward a vision for the protection of workers as the nature of working environments change. That is part of what the amendment’s “digital information principles at work” seek to do. I declare an interest: I worked for Ofcom as head of technology before coming to this House. That work highlighted to me the importance of forward-looking regulation. As my hon. Friend set out, artificial intelligence is not forward looking; it is here with us and in the workplace.”
“I thank the Minister for his comments. I note that he castigates us, albeit gently, for tabling an amendment to this data protection Bill, while he argues that there is a need for wider legislation to enshrine the rights he apparently agrees with. When and where will that legislation come forward? Does he recognise that we waited a long time and listened to similar arguments about addressing online harms, but have ended up in a situation where—in 2023—we still do not have legislation on online harms? My question is: if not now, when?”
“During a national emergency, it is the most vulnerable who are likely to be the most in need, but they are also the most likely to be digitally excluded. In the absence of a digital inclusion strategy or even target from the Government since 2014, we do not know where those people are. In response to the test, what steps will the right hon. Gentleman take to ensure that those who are digitally excluded will be better included and reached in a national emergency?”
“Q The Bill’s intent is to reduce burdens on organisations while maintaining high data protection standards. Do you agree that high data protection standards are promoted by well-informed and empowered citizens? What steps do you think the Bill takes to ensure greater information empowerment for citizens? John Edwards: Yes, I do believe that an empowered citizenry is best placed to enjoy these rights. However, I also believe that the complexity of the modern digital environment creates such an information asymmetry that it is important for strong advocates such as the Information Commissioner’s Office to act as a proxy on behalf of citizenry. I do not believe that we should devolve responsibility to citizens purely to ensure that high standards are set and adhered to in digital industries.”
“Q Thank you, Mr Hollobone. We have heard that the intent in the Bill is in part to reduce the burden on organisations from data protection. We heard you set out what some of those burdens might be. The organisations affected by this Bill, and the organisations with which you work in different ways, operate in different jurisdictions. I think you, Ms Artz, set out quite well the challenges of having—or trying to have—the same regime in different jurisdictions. If forced to make a choice between following the European Union regime and following a divergent UK regime, what choice would the organisations with which you work make?”
“Therefore, I think we should look just a little bit further than just saying, “Well, if I do comply with EU law, will I be all right in the UK?” Maybe the way to look at it—something I see some organisations exploring—is, “If I were to take the UK interpretation of the GDPR on a wholesale basis, would that allow me to operate across the world, and certainly in the EU, in a more effective and efficient but still compliant way?” This is something that companies will be exploring, and it is not as easy as simply saying, “Well, I will just do EU law across the board.””
“Mr Ustaran, please. Eduardo Ustaran: This is a question that many organisations that operate globally face right now. You must understand that data protection law operates all over the world and data flows all over the world, so consistency is really important in order to achieve compliance in an effective way. Therefore, a question—a very valid question—is, “Do I comply with the EU GDPR across the board, including in the UK, or should I make a difference?” The reality is that when you look at the way in which the UK data protection framework is being amended, it provides a baseline for compliance with both the UK and EU regimes, in the sense that much of what is being introduced could potentially be interpreted as already being the case in the EU, if you apply perhaps a more progressive interpretation of EU law.”
“They are further protected by central services, for example the telephone preference service. That is a law that companies can look up; 70% or so of households have registered their telephone number there. I think there are a large number of protections in place, both through the legislation and voluntarily.”
“You will be familiar with them from when you go to a website and it asks about categories of information or products that you are interested in. That allows consumers to express their interest. Within the legislation there is very clear data notification, required at the point that data is collected, which requires companies to ask you what you want to do. Whether it is consent or legitimate interest, consumers always have the right to opt out. With marketing, there is an absolute right to ask not to receive marketing of any kind, whether that is email, direct mail or telephone, at any time. Companies have an obligation to follow that. When it comes to marketing, which is my subject matter expertise, consumers are very well protected and do exercise their rights to opt out.”
“Q Mr Combemale, you set out some of the challenges of having centralised cookie management, and how that would give more power to the browsers. What you did not set out was how we could give more control and power to customers—citizens—over how they use their data. What are you doing to ensure that consumers have more control over how their data is used? You talked about the little thing that you can click to stop our personal data being used—that has been in place for some time now and it is great. If we have the time, Mr Ross, what is your sector doing as well, because the technology should be there to help and empower people? Chris Combemale: I think a lot of what our sector does voluntarily—setting aside the legislation—is the creation of what are called permission centres.”
“Q Dr Tennison, could you give an example of the kind of abuse that you are most concerned about taking place if this Bill is passed unchanged, so that we can better understand your concern? And do I have time to ask—”
“Anna Thomas: Employment law and the other laws in that context certainly help in some areas; for example, there is unfair dismissal protection, and redundancy protection under the information and consultation regulations. However, it is a patchwork, and it is not clear. Clarity is needed for businesses, to reassure people at work that the principles in the AI White Paper ultimately apply to their data, and to promote prosperity and wellbeing as widely as possible.”
“In some ways, I am more concerned about this leading to people not adopting technology and opting out of data collection because they are worried about what might happen. That would hold us back from the progress and the good uses of data that I would really like to see. Michael Birtwistle: I agree with that very much. We need to think about past public concern around GP data sharing, contact tracing and the Ofqual exams algorithm. When people see their data being used in unexpected ways, or in ways that make them feel uncomfortable, they withdraw their consent and support for that use, and we as a society lose the benefits that data-driven technology can bring.”