Dame Chi Onwurah
MP for Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West · Labour · United Kingdom
“An extraordinary debate is going on right now inside and outside AI companies about whether the possibility of AI destroying humanity is more or less than 10%. The European Union is moving ahead with a comprehensive AI regulatory framework, but the UK continues to rely on existing regulation.”
“The Pope also highlighted how the billions of online digital twins constitute an unprecedented concentration of power in the hands of a small number of men. Among the many consequences of the 40 years of neoliberalism repeatedly called out by the Prime Minister is a libertarian attitude to technology.”
“But this stealth digital twinning violates the integrity, uniqueness and very personhood of our constituents and of all of us. Digital twins can take many forms, from content creation algorithms and deepfakes to chatbots that reflect aspects of our personalities back at us. It is particularly worrying when children are the target.”
“The automated version of our kids will grow with them, using the power of AI to target advertising and products at them, and worse. The Science, Innovation and Technology Committee has heard about some of the tragic consequences of online grooming by algorithms and chatbots—a vulnerable boy persuaded to kill himself; a vulnerable girl fed…”
“In the arts, entertainment and tech industries, many performers are agreeing to the creation and use of digital replicas as part of their work—think of ABBA Voyage. But performers increasingly encounter unauthorised digital replicas of themselves, which pose a threat to their career, livelihood and reputation.”
“Since then, deepfakes have proliferated. The hon. Member for Mid Norfolk (George Freeman) was shown crossing the Floor in Parliament to join Reform, to his constituents’ consternation and his own—it was a fake. Then there were the horrendous photos of naked women and girls that Elon Musk’s AI created on demand.”
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“My hon. Friend makes an important point. It is important to understand that ARIA will be an independent agency, but it will be spending taxpayers’ money and it will therefore reflect the public and the national interest. If somebody is recruited who, at the time or later on, is found to have views that are abhorrent to society, or not fit to serve on the board for other reasons, by what process could or would such a person be removed from the board? If, for example, after appointment of a member to the board, it was found that they championed eugenic research or that they believed in anti-vaccination mythologies, for example, would there be any means by which they could be removed?”
“25, Q20.] With the examples that we have seen of Tory cronyism, do the Committee really think that we can just rely on trust when it comes to public interest and the public purse?”
“Schedule 9 to the Higher Education and Research Act 2017, for example, establishes that the Secretary of State must consider the collective relevant experience of the UKRI board when making appointments. In this Bill, there is no floor. That is a huge concern for the Committee. In the evidence session, Professor Philip Bond said: “What you are doing in creating this kind of model is handing trust to people. You want people with high integrity who are brilliant, and then you let them get on with it, and you trust that they will do something that reflects their character.” –– [ Official Report, Advanced Research and Invention Agency Public Bill Committee, 14 April 2021; c.”
“The hon. Lady makes a very good point on the comparison with a “fit and proper person” test for taxi drivers. That underlines the point I was going on to make. In the Bill, there is no statutory requirement for members of ARIA to possess scientific expertise or experience, whether individually or collectively. There is no floor—there is no minimum requirement—for their expertise. We have heard a lot about how wonderful and amazing and visionary they must be, but we have not heard about any floor for that expertise and, as I said earlier, there are no “have regard to” factors that the Secretary of State must consider when making appointments.”
“The Secretary of State is responsible for their getting the money, but will have no ability to remove them, no matter how unfit they prove themselves to be. On the basis that the amendments offer the Secretary of State further powers to ensure the fitness of the board, I hope that the Minister will accept them.”
“The hon. Member makes an interesting point, and it would be excellent if we understood better how the board would collectively exercise responsibility. When we talk about a board exercising collective responsibility, that is absolutely true. That is right, and it is what happens in the private sector. I would be interested to know whether the reporting requirements on private sector boards will apply in this case, but this is public money. It is £800 million of public money—taxpayers’ money. Particularly as we come out of a pandemic and recession, there are many worthy recipients of that money. Is the hon. Member truly saying that it should be spent and directed by people who have no accountability and cannot be removed?”
“I thank the Minister for her earlier comments. Can she clarify what she means when she says, “They are expected to include standard provisions”? Is she saying that they will include the explicit provision for the CEO and the chair to remove members, and under what criteria or circumstances?”
“I echo the point made by the hon. Member for Aberdeen North. We recognise that a significant amount of power lies in the chief executive and the chair, and there is no oversight from Parliament or others of those appointments. To say that the chief executive and the chair will have the power according to contractual negotiations to remove members does not reassure us. The Minister said that the Secretary of State could, in extremis, remove the chair. Would she write to me to set out what the in extremis circumstances would be? I am keen not to detain the Committee unnecessarily. We are raising important matters, but since the Minister is not happy to accept them, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn .”
“Member for Harwich and North Essex (Sir Bernard Jenkin) said: “The line between public service and private gain is shamefully blurred”. He went on to say: “In the meantime, the government can establish not so much new rules but new processes and education, which encourage more of the proper conversations about values, integrity, ethics and how to behave when there might be potential, or even just perceived, conflicts of interest.” He went on to recommend training in conflicts of interest. Again, we are constructively giving the Government —obviously the Bill was drafted before some of the scandals that they are embroiled in came to light—the opportunity to follow his advice.”
“ARIA will not be able to achieve its transformational goal without working closely with the private sector. As was stated in the evidence sessions, part of the UK’s particular challenge is the commercialisation of existing fantastic ideas, so working closely with the private section is important. However, the Committee must be aware that we have seen time and again, particularly now, that the revolving door between the private and public sectors can be open to abuse, especially—I say reluctantly—under this Government. Only last weekend, writing in The Observer—other newspapers are available; I mentioned The Daily Telegraph earlier, so I am trying to be fair—the senior Conservative MP and Chair of the Liaison Committee, the hon.”
“I beg to move amendment 13, in schedule 1, page 9, line 11, leave out paragraph 11 and insert— “11 The Secretary of State must by regulations make provision establishing the procedures to be adopted for dealing with conflicts of interest of members of ARIA, members of a committee or sub-committee or ARIA’s employees.” The amendment seeks constructively to improve the Bill by providing greater transparency and oversight, and thus avoid potential scandals of sleaze that are currently overwhelming various aspects of this Government. The amendment would require that the Secretary of State make regulations to establish the procedures to deal with conflicts of interest involving ARIA’s members and staff. We recognise that ARIA should have close links with the private sector.”
“We have seen over the past few months with the scandal over Greensill—this is what the comments from the Chair of the Liaison Committee were about—that the existing rules and regulations are not sufficient. Finally, for the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme to say that we can expect these people to behave better because they are going to be better than that—really? Many scandals have been founded on expectations like that and again, we do not want the touch or hint of scandal near our fantastic science base.”
“I thank the hon. Member for the second Newcastle for that contribution. I will make a couple of points in response. Let me gently say that Government members of the Committee are trying somewhat to have it both ways, in saying that ARIA will be like UKRI while not putting in place any of the measures, systems or processes of accountability to require it to be like UKRI, building on the fact that ARIA is, as I understand it, meant to fill a gap in our research landscape. On whether ARIA will follow all the rules that UKRI follows, I am pretty sure that the answer to that is no, because as I understand it, it is not going to follow freedom of information or procurement rules.”
“I urge her to accept the amendment to establish processes and procedures to avoid conflicts of interest in this new body, which is critical to our future economic and scientific prosperity.”
“That view is shared by the Chair of the Liaison Committee, who has said “After the dust settles over the Greensill affair, I suspect that we will find that the lack of judgment over David Cameron’s approaches to ministers is less important than the general failure to address what has become a casual approach to conflicts of interests amongst many in government and in politics…All can see now the general inability of the various codes and systems”— to the points made— “of oversight, such as the toothless advisory committee on business appointments, to provide sufficient transparency and accountability, which is why even its chair, Lord Pickles, wants reform.” When the Chair of Liaison Committee, who is much respected on the Government Benches, says that, and when we are mired in scandals as a consequence of a lack of appropriate conduct and clear processes and procedures, I urge the Minister to accept the need at the very least for greater detail when it comes to avoidance of conflicts of interest.”
“I asked Dr Highnam, “What should we be looking for in the directors and programme managers as the key positive part of the culture that ARIA should seek to build?” He answered: “Honour in public service is top of the list.” –– [ Official Report, Advanced Research and Invention Agency Public Bill Committee, 14 April 2021; c. 39, Q32.] I should say that I have not heard any Government witness or Minister emphasise the importance of honour as a key characteristic of board members. I think it is really important that procedures to deal with conflicts of interest are established.”
“Professor Pierre Azoulay of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology said that “the programme managers at DARPA and also at ARPA-E—the Advanced Research Projects Agency-Energy—have a fixed expiration date, which means they will need to go back to academia or to the venture capital firm or large firm that they left, and generally they want to do so with their head held high and their reputation intact. I think that that has created over time a norm of correct behaviour, if you will, and the absence of cronyism.”—[ Official Report, Advanced Research and Invention Agency Public Bill Committee , 14 April 2021; c. 38, Q30.] We want to see that norm of correct behaviour established through supporting processes and procedures.”
“I also think that this position of not taking equity is important, because the non-profit element of it is part of the differentiation, and we have an entire commercial sector that is good at assessing value and figuring out return on investment.”—[ Official Report, Advanced Research and Invention Agency Public Bill Committee , 14 April 2021; c. 48, Q43.] What is different with ARIA is that it is, potentially, going to be taking equity, which can raise more complex conflicts of interest.”
“This stems from the need to have a close working relationship with the private sector, which will give rise to conflicts of interest that may be quite complex, especially with new and evolving technologies, which may go on to complex and potentially international supply chains. Those conflicts of interest may be complex, involving equity stakes and so on. We need procedures to deal with them that are more detailed than the current general ones and which are specifically targeted at ARIA’s unique role. Dr Regina Dugan, the chief executive officer of Wellcome Leap, effectively supported that proposal: “The particular way that we work is through contracts; we do not actually do grants.”
“I thank the hon. Member for his contribution, which I think was made in a constructive sense. I think the Chair of the Liaison Committee is making a point about that guidance. Clearly, it was not sufficient for David Cameron and it is clearly not proving to be sufficient in other cases. I hope that, as this amendment sets out, it is not simply about declaring. This is a critical part and I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for allowing me to emphasise it. The amendment does not say they should declare conflicts of interest; it states that the Secretary of States makes regulations—detailed, I would say—establishing the procedures to deal with conflicts of interest. That is the key thing.”
“My hon. Friend makes an important point. Perhaps the fact that DARPA is part of the US defence establishment, with all the military honour and commitment to the defence of the nation, is one of the reasons why honour was held so high by the Americans. Does he agree that the absence of any mission and any departmental ownership of ARIA means that will not be the case in the UK?”
“We in the Opposition have said a number of times that ARIA is an organisation that will necessarily give rise to important conflicts of interest, so it needs more detailed procedures and processes. I do not want to detain the Committee, however, and I hope that the Minister will look at the issue in the future. I will not push the matter to a vote, so I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn .”
“I thank the Minister for her response. I take most comfort from her unequivocal statement that honour in public service is a key characteristic that will be looked for in the chief executive officer of ARIA, because I had not heard such a strong statement about the need for honour, or even for public service, in ARIA’s mission. I take more comfort from that than from the confirmation that ARIA board members will be subject to existing rules about conflicts of interest. As we have heard, those rules are not sufficient. For example, in one of the recent scandals it was found that the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care owned shares in a company that had received a significant contract from his Department, and there were questions about whether the requirements for declarations of public interest had been met.”
“I beg to move amendment 14, in schedule 1, page 10, line 5, at end insert— “(3) The report shall contain information regarding— (a) the proportion of ARIA’s funding in the relevant financial year which has financed activities taking place (in whole or in part) outside the United Kingdom, and (b) the national and regional distribution of activities in the United Kingdom supported by ARIA’s funding in the relevant financial year.” This amendment would require ARIA’s annual report to contain details of the geographical distribution of activities funded by ARIA.”
“During and since the general election, there has been significant discussion about the importance of ensuring that our whole country benefits from economic prosperity and from the transformational impact of ARIA.”
“These amendments are all concerned with ensuring that the benefits of ARIA are spread across our country and contribute to a more equal and prosperous country. Amendment 14 would insert a new sub-paragraph requiring ARIA’s annual report, for which there is provision elsewhere, to contain details of the geographical distribution of activities funded by ARIA, while amendments 16, 17 and 18, which relate to clause 2, would require ARIA to have regard for the benefits of its activities across the nations and regions of the UK in exercising its functions. We tabled these amendments in a constructive spirit, to improve the Bill in line with the Government’s own aims, as we understand them.”
“Local government spends about £1 billion on procurement, and cities are key investors in infrastructure, so finding a good link with local government, as well as with central Government, is important…Regional strengths deliver benefits to actual localities.”––[ Official Report, Advanced Research and Invention Public Bill Committee , 14 April 2021; c. 56, Q54.] We also heard from John Kingman, the chair of UKRI, that its structures involve regular consultation with the devolved Administrations. It is important that we see how well ARIA is able to benefit also from that engagement, whether indirectly through the UKRI or through its competitions and other means of funding.”
“That is really important when we reflect that the Campaign for Science and Engineering found that for every £1 invested by the Government on research and development we receive 20p to 30p back each and every year. Surely we have a right to know where that money is going geographically, as well as which areas it is going to. As a northern MP, I know that the north receives less than half of the life sciences investment per head that the south of England does, despite having great teaching hospitals and significant health inequalities that truly need to be transformed. We heard an important contribution from Tabitha Goldstaub of CognitionX, who said that “ARIA has to be independent, but it also needs to ensure that it works really closely with central Government and with regional and local government.”
“It is essential, as I have said, that each region of the UK benefits from the creation of ARIA. The Secretary of State told the Science and Technology Committee that the Government wanted ARIA “to reflect the wide talent and geographical spread of the United Kingdom”, but there is nothing in the Bill to measure the extent to which it does that. As we have seen, the Bill fails to mention the devolved nations and does not outline any reflection of the geographical realities of the United Kingdom. Amendment 14 is simply about requiring reporting so that the Government—whichever Government we have—can measure the impact that ARIA is having on the very important desire to reduce the regional inequalities in our country. It does not tie the hands of ARIA’s leadership; it just imposes reporting requirements.”
“That is a basic requirement of transparency. The hon. Member is right to infer that people may draw conclusions from that reporting, but I tend to feel that information is empowering, regardless of what the conclusions are, so the amendment takes a reasonable line between requiring that the spend be in some respects regionally distributed, which it does not do, and ensuring that the information is there to assess the extent to which ARIA is living up to its overriding goal—again, we do not have a mission, so let us say goal—of transforming our society. The Opposition believe that that goal is possible. We believe that science and research, as I have said, can be the engines of progress for our society, but it needs to be for and by everyone, not simply for the few.”
“There are two challenges here. ARIA’s funding is between 1% and 2% of the UK’s science spend, depending on whether the aims of the current Government are actually met, so in some respects it is considered too small to be subject to reporting requirements. Yet we also hear of how it is expected—indeed, required—to have a transformational impact on all our lives. If that impact is going to be transformational, surely it is critical that it should be as equitable as possible. We have tried very hard to reflect those slightly conflicting aims. Amendment 14 is a reporting requirement; amendments 16, 17 and 18 are to “have regard to”. We have not set targets. We have not said that it has to be a certain proportion, but particularly with regard to amendment 14 there can surely be no objection to reporting how the funding has been spent.”
“Once again, my hon. Friend has reminded me in his excellent contribution of an important point that I should have made, which was that the regional development agencies, abolished by the Conservative coalition in 2010, did report on regional innovation and science spend. Whenever I speak to the North East England chamber of commerce, I am told that one of the difficulties in making the knowledge exchange framework accessible or understandable is the lack of data on regional science spend. Part of the point of this amendment is to help restore some of that data.”
“Its borders may move, but the geographical reality of our United Kingdom as a country of nations and regions will, I hope, remain, and so a requirement to have regard to the benefit across the nations and regions seems eminently sensible—indeed, it is a minimal requirement. I would like to press amendment 16 to a vote later, but I beg to ask leave to withdraw amendment 14. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn .”
“I thank the Minister for her response. I am pleased to hear that she believes that the information requested in amendment 14 is likely to be included in the reporting requirements of ARIA. On that basis, I am—well, “happy” is not the right word, but I will withdraw amendment 14. I do so also on the basis that she understands its importance. I feel, however, that in her response to amendments 16, 17 and 18, the Minister has had it both ways: she is saying that the benefits will be felt across the nation but that a requirement to have regard for the benefits across the nations and regions of the UK is too much.”
“I rise briefly to speak in support of the amendment. As the Bill stands, ARIA will not be subject to freedom of information requests. If there is no requirement to report on gender balance and the gender pay gap, will we have any understanding of the way in which ARIA is reflecting the gender diversity that we hope to see in the organisation?”
“I hope that the Minister will reflect on the importance of improving accountability as the Bill proceeds. Question put and agreed to. Schedule 1 accordingly agreed to. Clause 2 ARIA’s functions”
“I thank the Minister for her comments on schedule 1. While I necessarily disagree with her assessment that the schedule contains all the checks and balances, accountability and oversight that are required, I will not oppose it. The National Audit Office audit to which the Minister referred is a very limited safeguard against some aspects of conflict of interest and the misuse of public money, and the wider concerns that we have. It is limited to providing a true and fair opinion about whether the public body’s financial statement is free from material misstatement, whether caused by fraud or error, and therefore does not address our concerns about accountability. The National Audit Office conducts 400 such audits annually and it would not necessarily prevent the mismanagement of public funds in ARIA or other bodies.”
“For the ten years following the Act passing, that core mission would be undertaking activities to support the achievement of net zero. Thereafter, its mission will be established by statutory instrument subject to the draft affirmative procedure.”
“I beg to move amendment 15, in clause 2, page 1, line 7, at end insert— “(1) In exercising its functions, ARIA must have regard to its core mission. (2) In this section, ‘core mission’ means— (a) for the period of ten years after the date on which this Act is passed, undertaking activities which support the achievement of the target established in section 1 of the Climate Change Act 2008; (b) thereafter, that mission or missions which the Secretary of State establishes by regulations every five years. (c) regulations under this section— (i) shall be made by statutory instrument, and (ii) may not be made unless a draft has been laid before and approved by resolution of each House of Parliament.” This amendment would require ARIA to consider its core mission in exercising its functions.”
“With no mission and the whole of the realm of science—the whole of the unknown and the less understood—to choose from, the risk is that ARIA will be directionless, providing no societal return for taxpayer investment, or that it will be prey to vanity projects, providing return only for a few. In evidence to the Science and Technology Committee, Dominic Cummings—I am mentioning him once again as the original inspiration and architect of ARIA—held up some sort of a diagram and said that general UK research was one bit and that ARIA should look at all the rest. That gave the impression that it would be like the SS Enterprise going off in search of new areas, but even the SS Enterprise—I know that “Star Trek” fans are present—had a mission, which was to seek out new civilisations. It was not a mission to—”
“We welcome ARIA, as we have said. We recognise that there is a gap in the UK’s research capability, which ARIA can and should fill, but we believe strongly that ARIA will succeed only if it is given a well-defined mission, which the Government must play a significant role in setting. As we heard in the evidence sessions—and as is, I believe, the opinion of the Minister—ARIA should not try to replace either blue skies research institutions or translational institutions, but should bring the two together to focus on the transformative effects that science and technology can have on society. I am sure that we are all united in the view that ARIA can have a transformative impact. This is an opportunity for the Government to establish a mission-led funding agency that can benefit us all.”
“It has been a long day and we have had lively debates covering many important themes set out in this admittedly short Bill. We now come to one of the critical themes: the mission of ARIA. What is ARIA for? Amendment 15 would require ARIA to consider its core mission in exercising its functions. Under the amendment, for the 10 years following the passing of the Act, that core mission would be to undertake activities to support the achievement of net zero. Thereafter, its mission would be established by statutory instrument, subject to the draft affirmative procedure. I am surprised that I find myself in the position of needing to argue that ARIA—the Advanced Research and Invention Agency—requires a mission and that that mission should be net zero, which is the greatest existential challenge facing our country and the world right now.”
“I am speaking about “Star Trek”, so let me finish my point and then I will give way. It was not a general mission to go around the universe and galaxies. It was not a mission to look at mining new minerals or whatever. It was a mission to seek out new civilisations, yet here we have ARIA being proposed as an agency without any mission whatever.”
“The Government should not outsource their responsibility to direct the transformative change that ARIA can bring to our greatest challenge, which is one that—the hon. Member is familiar with this—inspires so many young people and that can get public buy-in: climate change and the need to address the impact it will have on our planet.”
“I accept that it is indeed the USS Enterprise, and I thank the hon. Member for that correction. On the rest of his contribution, I will say once again that I have a great deal of respect for the hon. Member, but to boldly go where no one has gone before is not a mission. It is not even a direction—it is explicitly not a direction. As I said, the USS Enterprise’s mission was to seek out new civilisations, so it was anthropological rather than another domain of science. ARIA has no mission. We do think we have to talk about the Haldane principle, given that we have seen the acceptance of mission-oriented research, including the grand challenges that were discussed during the evidence sessions. That makes it clear that we can ascribe a mission to ARIA without breaching the Haldane principle.”
“I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend; I think that it is progressive, transformative and very necessary. We heard today that the Prime Minister has decided to set another target for our emissions—I think that it is to slash UK emissions by 78% by 2035—undaunted by the fact that he has not met any of the targets that he has set previously. This issue is not about setting targets; it is about changing the way in which our economy and our society work, to reduce our emissions. Just think of the role that ARIA could play in that process. My hon. Friend suggested that achieving net zero is not a narrow mission; it is a broad mission, because net zero impacts every aspect of our life. An ARIA CEO would have plenty of discretion in choosing which aspects of the climate and environmental emergency to address.”
“Would it not provide a model for other countries to follow?”
“Without a clear mandate from the Secretary of State, ARIA’s leadership will be put in the unenviable position of having to decide which Government Departments and policies to prioritise, and who will have the ear of the ARIA CEO. I say again that the Government cannot outsource this responsibility as they have chosen to outsource so many other responsibilities. We are at the beginning of the decisive decade, in which the world must avert the worst impacts of climate change, and ARIA could provide much-needed research to help advance the solutions that are necessary to decarbonise our economy rapidly and fairly. In addition, this year the UK will host the critical COP26 UN climate summit. Would it not be a fantastic message to say that our leading high-risk, high-reward agency is focused on climate change?”
“Think what impact an inspired programme director in ARIA could have on that great challenge of effectively insulating and reducing the emissions from our 20 million or so homes, or ensuring that transport, which the Government have said will be included in their emissions targets, is green. That is not a narrow mission. Net zero is not a narrow mission; it is as broad and as big as our planet, and it is certainly where we desperately need to focus our attention. In response to the point about the Government choosing the mission, I would say that only the Government have the democratic mandate—they won the election—to choose the mission, while allowing ARIA’s leadership the operational independence to implement that mission. It is critical that the mission reflects public concerns, to establish buy-in as well as the tolerance for failure.”
“I thank the hon. Gentleman for that contribution. Envisaging the edge of the edge, whether it is a circle or an ellipse—whatever it is, it is obviously broad. It is too broad. I think it could be anything. I think this Committee believes that ARIA must have a transformative impact on society, otherwise why are we here? The area where we need a transformative change is in climate change, which is a hugely broad area. The UK, under this Government, is off track to meet current targets. The Government have no ambitious green recovery plan, they have axed the vital housing retrofit scheme and they have cut subsidies for electric vehicles. They are desperately in need of focusing our activities on the impact of climate change. We know that two of the great challenges in reducing our emissions are transport and the existing housing stock.”