Dame Chi Onwurah
MP for Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West · Labour · United Kingdom
“An extraordinary debate is going on right now inside and outside AI companies about whether the possibility of AI destroying humanity is more or less than 10%. The European Union is moving ahead with a comprehensive AI regulatory framework, but the UK continues to rely on existing regulation.”
“The Pope also highlighted how the billions of online digital twins constitute an unprecedented concentration of power in the hands of a small number of men. Among the many consequences of the 40 years of neoliberalism repeatedly called out by the Prime Minister is a libertarian attitude to technology.”
“But this stealth digital twinning violates the integrity, uniqueness and very personhood of our constituents and of all of us. Digital twins can take many forms, from content creation algorithms and deepfakes to chatbots that reflect aspects of our personalities back at us. It is particularly worrying when children are the target.”
“The automated version of our kids will grow with them, using the power of AI to target advertising and products at them, and worse. The Science, Innovation and Technology Committee has heard about some of the tragic consequences of online grooming by algorithms and chatbots—a vulnerable boy persuaded to kill himself; a vulnerable girl fed…”
“In the arts, entertainment and tech industries, many performers are agreeing to the creation and use of digital replicas as part of their work—think of ABBA Voyage. But performers increasingly encounter unauthorised digital replicas of themselves, which pose a threat to their career, livelihood and reputation.”
“Since then, deepfakes have proliferated. The hon. Member for Mid Norfolk (George Freeman) was shown crossing the Floor in Parliament to join Reform, to his constituents’ consternation and his own—it was a fake. Then there were the horrendous photos of naked women and girls that Elon Musk’s AI created on demand.”
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“I want the Minister to think about what that means for the 11% who have no access to the internet. What I want to see from the Government in the next few days is first, digital skills. There are those who have access to the internet but do not have the real digital skills to use it. They need to be able to take advantage of the many different courses and means of entertainment and so on, which are all fantastically being developed at the moment. They need the digital skills to be able to access that. In that respect, I recommend the work of Sue Black with the #techmums initiative, which is still rolling out during coronavirus, and also the work of many other charities. Secondly, there is the question of capacity.”
“Across all age groups, disabled adults make up a large proportion of adult internet non-users. In normal times, access to the internet improves hugely the chances of, for example, finding work. It also, as we have heard, makes it easier to access universal credit—in fact, it is essential to access universal credit—and it enables people to connect and communicate better with family, friends and the community. These are not normal times, however, and for the next few weeks and perhaps the next few months, social distancing is going to be the norm. Social distancing must be accompanied by digital coming-together, and for that we need digital skills and digital access. We have heard about the implications for mental health of isolation without the ability to communicate.”
“I applaud and echo what many of my colleagues have said about those who are suffering the most in this crisis, but my focus is on the impact of the digital divide in our country in relation to coronavirus. We know that access to and ability to use the internet is not evenly spread across our society. In the UK, data from the Office for National Statistics indicates that in 2018, 10% of adults said they did not have access to the internet at home, while 4.3 million had no demonstrable digital skills. That data also showed that 12% of those aged between 11 and 18 years reported having no internet access at home from a computer or tablet. Since 2011, adults over the age of 65 have consistently made up the largest proportion of adult non-users of the internet. More than half of all adult internet non-users were over the age of 75.”
“My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. Without wishing to go into the financial crisis and the, in my opinion, very well deserved backlash against the financial sector, which continued to make profits while so many people felt the impact of that crisis, it now has the opportunity to demonstrate the social value and support it can provide in times of crisis and emergency, especially, as my hon. Friend says, for those who have taken out loans or credit cards and those who need loans. Many businesses are still saying to me that they are not getting the loans that they are promised, particularly the tech sector start-ups, which rarely have the assets that banks feel are necessary to offer such loans. We want greater corporate citizenship from the financial sector and from other businesses, too.”
“My right hon. Friend may not be aware of reports that the Government have announced that they will make a statement on support for the self-employed tomorrow. Does he agree that the Government should come before the House today, while it is sitting, so that we can scrutinise that statement?”
“I have to correct the record. It was not a paean to the power of the free market; actually, I was identifying its critical failings when it comes to providing capacity for the state to respond to pandemics of the type we face.”
“Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment that this is a time for the parties, and indeed the country, to come together, but that requires us to share information, which is also part of my role as a Member of Parliament. After the Prime Minister’s announcement on closing pubs and the lockdown, and the Chancellor’s announcement about support for jobs, I received hundreds of emails asking for clarification—indeed, I received hundreds of emails about help for the self-employed before any announcement. What is your advice, Mr Speaker, about how I can perform my role as a Member of Parliament and share information, if we do not have the Prime Minister here to share it with the House?”
“Coronavirus is driving many aspects of our daily lives online. Hopefully that will help to bring us together, but it will also undoubtedly attract criminal elements to new crimes, particularly with all the vulnerable people going online. What additional capacity is the Home Secretary ensuring in the police forces to patrol the online streets and keep us safe at this time?”
“On that point, I should emphasise that equality of access to healthcare must surely apply to our excellent healthcare workers. Some concerns have been raised with me that healthcare workers are receiving advice from their national health service trusts that is different from that given to ordinary working people, particularly when it comes to isolation when there are symptoms at home. As one person put it to me, the applause and support for healthcare workers is all very well, but they also want to know that their health and wellbeing is considered to be just as important as everybody else’s, if not more so.”
“4. What steps he is taking with Cabinet colleagues to maintain food supplies for vulnerable people in the (a) North East and (b) UK during the covid-19 outbreak.”
“All of us found the images of empty supermarket shelves disturbing, but for those who are vulnerable, aged, unwell, isolated or dependent on food banks, that is causing real fear as to where their next meal is coming from. In the north-east, we have excellent local producers, but much of our food is dependent on supply chains, and I am afraid the Secretary of State’s response will not have given the reassurance required. What specifically is he doing to ensure the supply of food to the supermarket shelves and from the supermarket shelves to people’s homes?”
“4. To ask the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire, representing the House of Commons Commission, what support the Parliamentary Digital Service is providing to hon. Members and staff of the House of Commons to enable (a) remote working and (b) video conferencing during the outbreak of covid-19.”
“I am sure that we all agree that the Parliamentary Digital Service provides amazing support for Members of Parliament in our wide-ranging and very demanding requirements. But our jobs are changing; I am not going to be able to have face-to-face contact with any constituent for the foreseeable future, and my staff will all be working from home, so we need to have support for a broad range of new applications. The Commissioner talks about laptops and hardware. I want to know that PDS will have the resources to support a wide range of new applications, such as video conferencing.”
“Can I say to the Minister as constructively as possible that his Government’s economic response is undermining the public health response? Job losses are contagious. Fear of economic hardship will spread the virus. The technical details can wait, but he needs to say now—today—that in principle he will guarantee the incomes of everyone at a level that provides security.”
“The Windrush generation were British. They should not have been caught up in our immigration system, but they were. The Home Secretary’s apology and use of the past tense remain unconvincing while the hostile environment they experienced is still in place. The all-party parliamentary group for Africa, which I chair, reported on the disgraceful treatment of African visa applicants. As a constituency MP, I see every day, delay, neglect, discrimination and stereotyping in Home Office processes. Will the Secretary of State say today that our immigration system must be not only fair and fast but welcoming, and that that is the standard to which she will hold herself?”
“I hope the Minister has listened carefully to the excellent contributions from all parts of the House and will use his influence to ensure that justice is delivered for the hundreds of sub-postmasters wronged and to hold those responsible to account.”
“Nothing could be further from the truth for the people who are still fighting for justice, and that is why we need a judge-led independent inquiry to take place as soon as feasibly possible. I want to say a word about the Communication Workers Union, which identified flaws in the Horizon system back in 2015 and has worked hard to secure the inquiry. It has said that it is happy to work with us to ensure that it is timely and independent. So far, we have not seen any accountability for the lives and reputations that have been ruined. That is why securing this independent inquiry will be such a big victory for sub-postmasters, trade unions and justice. The Government failed to live up to their responsibility and prevent the scandal from occurring.”
“When we hear from the Minister, I hope he will be able to provide more detail on the timescale and scope of that inquiry. Again, it is worth emphasising that litigation was brought to address the errors of a Government-owned company. A civil servant sits on the board of the Post Office. Its only shareholder is the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, so more should have been done to address the scandal before it was allowed to fester to this extent. Serious questions need to be answered about the relationship between the company and the Government. The Government appear to be content to act as the Post Office’s parliamentary organ throughout this process, claiming that the December settlement was the end of the matter.”
“Unfortunately, the close relationship that the Government have with the architects of Post Office Ltd’s vicious pursuit of sub-postmasters means that they are unable to create an environment that allows the necessary large-scale changes to happen. I welcome the fact that Paula Vennells, the former chief executive of the Post Office who was so heavily criticised by Justice Fraser, appears no longer to serve on the Cabinet Office board, but why on earth did the Government allow that appointment to be made? Why did they not act sooner to distance themselves from those responsible for impacting the lives of so many? As we have heard, on 26 February, the Prime Minister, in answer to a question from my hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow (Kate Osborne), appeared to commit to a full public inquiry into the Horizon scandal.”
“However, it is simply not right to require those already in financial ruin to incur yet more costs in the fight to clear their name. Will the Government therefore consider giving the CCRC the mechanism it needs to assess the case for a group expungement of convictions due to faults with the Horizon system? This is a Government-owned company that has been found to have been at fault. It is therefore of the utmost importance that the Government act to improve the corporate structure of the Post Office to prevent this kind of thing from ever happening again. More should have been done to address the issue before it was allowed to develop into the scandal it is, but all we can do now is ensure that those wrongly convicted get justice and lessons are learned.”
“In his verdict, Mr Justice Fraser stated that the Post Office treated its sub-postmasters in “capricious or arbitrary ways which would not be unfamiliar to a mid-Victorian factory-owner.” He also described its long-standing defence of the Horizon system as “the 21st century equivalent of maintaining the earth is flat.” We appear to have a Dickensian flat earth society running our precious network of local post offices. On the Criminal Cases Review Commission’s review of the convictions of those affected by the Horizon scandal, such an extraordinary set of circumstances requires a bespoke response. The Government have parroted the Post Office’s line that those wrongly convicted must each bring their own individual appeal forward.”
“One young woman affected was still a teenager when convicted of fraud, and she has faced unemployment and financial ruin. As we have heard from other right hon. and hon. Members, she has been ostracised from her community and shunned by friends and neighbours. Sadly, her case is far from unique, and I want to pay tribute to all those who have suffered in this way. In December, after a long trial in which the Post Office’s heavy-handed actions against its own staff came to light, it agreed to pay a £58 million settlement to the 557 sub-postmasters who had brought action against it.”
“Hundreds of sub-postmasters have been accused of fraud and forced to pay back thousands of pounds. They have faced bankruptcy and conviction, and financial compensation alone will never repair the damage caused. Speaking as a former software engineer myself, I am upset and truly disappointed at the way in which technology has been used as an instrument of torture. An IT deployment of this kind—one of the most expensive in the history of the United Kingdom—should have had users and people at its heart. It should not have been turned into a living nightmare—a living nightmare that continues for many sub-postmasters to this day. Many MPs have told the stories of sub-postmasters from their constituencies. In Newcastle upon Tyne Central, sub-postmasters have suffered mental health problems brought about by this scandal.”
“I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) and the hon. Member for North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen) on securing this incredibly important debate. I particularly commend my right hon. Friend for his work on this issue over many years and for his excellent opening remarks. Like him, I pay tribute to the hundreds of sub-postmasters who have faced unimaginable hardship as a result of this scandal, and I want to celebrate the work of Alan Bates, who has helped to secure some justice for 557 sub-postmasters. As we have heard from Members on both sides of the House, a truly shocking number of individuals and families have had their lives impacted by the shameful way that Post Office Ltd has conducted itself throughout this process.”
“My hon. Friend is making some excellent comments. I understand that a major international fast food chain has told its employees that if a branch has to close because of infection, business being quiet or Government action, the employees will receive only statutory sick pay, and those on zero-hours contracts will get nothing. Does my hon. Friend agree that that will make it harder for employees to do the right thing, and that it constitutes exploitative behaviour on the part of the employers which must be condemned and stopped?”
“I thank the Secretary of State for giving way. He talks about statutory sick pay as part of the safety net. As such, he recognises that, as a safety net, it is a benefit of last resort, and he talks about the way in which companies can offer more. Does he therefore recognise that in this unprecedented situation, when so many people are likely to find themselves—either by choosing to self-isolate or being obliged to—in the position of claiming statutory sick pay, the level is not appropriate to drive the right behaviours or support people? It is no longer a question of last resort, but of supporting significant proportions of our population, so sick pay needs to be at a higher level.”
“Our schools are not only amazing centres of learning but are centres of support for children living in poverty, including 48% of children in Newcastle upon Tyne Central. On free school meals, is the Secretary of State, like Newcastle City Council, looking at ensuring the continued delivery of hot meals to children’s homes? He talks of encouraging online learning, but there is a digital divide in this country and the libraries that help to close that divide are themselves closing. Will he guarantee access to broadband for all children whose schools are shut?”
“Last night, a constituent in the hospitality trade contacted me to express concern at the Prime Minister’s measures and to ask what could be done about them. Today, she emailed me to say that she had been made redundant and to ask how she could pay her rent. The Chancellor does not seem to grasp the scale of the fear, the uncertainty and the desperation in the country now. Will he guarantee to me now that every renter will have the means to pay their rent, and every small business the means to pay their staff?”
“For £1.50 in London—which the Secretary of State mentioned—I can get two buses anywhere across the capital for up to 30 miles. In Newcastle, £1.50 will not even get me three stops up the West Road, while if I want to go to Ashington, which is 18 miles away, it will cost me £8. Can we have a comparative study of bus fares in London and the north-east so that we can understand what we need to do to make them fairer and improve bus patronage?”
“Newcastle upon Tyne Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust welcomed the UK’s first coronavirus victims, six weeks ago. In the intervening time, the role of Newcastle City Council’s public health team has become increasingly important, as local cases are identified and local concerns raised, yet it does not know what its budget will be from April. How can it plan an effective public health campaign? Will the Secretary of State at least confirm when it will be told what its budget is and that the increase—there will be one—will increase with the duration of the crisis?”
“The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders expects registrations for electric vehicles to rise by 77% this year, and National Grid predicts that they will rise from 100,000 to 36 million by 2040—an increase of 36,000%. As part of that, the number of electric vehicle batteries will rise exponentially. There are a few hundred lithium cells in a Nissan Leaf and thousands in a Tesla—a second-hand market will undoubtedly develop. I want to emphasise what amazing technological innovation there has been in batteries in the last few decades.”
“It is a great pleasure to speak in this important debate. Although the Budget and, unfortunately, the coronavirus crisis will take the headlines today, the climate emergency and our transition to a net zero economy remain the greatest challenges facing humanity. We will have to change many aspects of our society to address them, and that includes what we drive. Under the Government’s plans, 15 years from now internal combustion engines will no longer be sold new in this country. Moving away from petrol-based engines is a challenge, but also a huge opportunity for the UK automotive industry. Transport makes up 26% of emissions and the automotive sector can make a dramatic contribution to achieving a net zero economy and saving our planet. That will require a massive rise in the number of electric vehicles in the UK.”
“The hon. Gentleman might well have read my speech, because those are exactly the points that I hope to make. Returning now to innovation, when I studied electrical engineering at Imperial some decades ago, batteries were big, boring and messy. Now they are at the cutting edge of many exciting developments. We are getting down to the fundamentals of physics in the storage of energy and its applications everywhere from our smartphones to our national grid. Batteries are getting smaller, safer, more sustainable and more manageable, but we must also acknowledge that we are entering an era of battery reuse, recycling and transportation the like of which we have never before seen.”
“That is a fantastic idea. This hub would upskill and train those working with lithium batteries to safely manage and dispose of them, helping to address worker safety issues and some of the concerns I have raised. Would the Minister support such a hub?”
“Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) said, it will take planning and investment to develop the processes and permits for a battery processing factory in the United Kingdom, it is essential to get started now. We have to remember that it is not safe to stockpile these end-of-life batteries and let them accumulate in the UK. I have talked a little bit about the challenges, because I want to emphasise to the Minister the importance of taking the right decisions now, but there are also opportunities that can help to level up our nation. The Faraday Institution-funded ReLiB project is researching ways to facilitate a circular economy in lithium-ion batteries, and Newcastle University has benefited from some of its work packages. Newcastle University is also proposing a battery safety health and environment hub on Tyneside.”
“This is not feasible in the long term, given the expected increase in numbers. I understand that ECOBAT Logistics, the largest UK recycler of non-lithium-ion batteries, is looking seriously at initiating a lithium-ion battery recycling industry in the UK. Is the Minister in talks with that company? There is also a Brexit question. Without a recycling facility of our own, we will be in a vulnerable position when the EU transition period ends. The Government have yet to set out the UK’s equivalent of the waste batteries and accumulators directive 2006. We may face export restrictions or duties, and we would have to accept external prices since these materials cannot be landfilled. Given that, as the hon.”
“They lack the flammable liquid electrolyte found in lithium-ion batteries, and are therefore safer. However, we must assume that lithium-ion batteries will continue to dominate for some years to come. There are no facilities in the UK to recycle electric car batteries, so the small volume currently being created are exported to Europe, where they are destroyed in high temperature furnaces. This enables the recovery of valuable critical elements such as cobalt and nickel, but at least 50% of the battery materials are not recovered. Currently, the number of electric vehicle batteries being sent for recycling in this way is so low that the Environment Agency does not even record the figures. When UK firms export their batteries to Europe, they have to pay a gate fee of thousands of pounds.”
“Furthermore, electric vehicles are not legally required to be marked with information on the batteries they contain for the information of arriving emergency services. Ongoing work by the UK health and safety of energy storage governance group—chaired by the Institution of Engineering and Technology, of which I am a member—raised concerns that the Home Office system used by the fire brigade to report incidents does not actually have a category for energy storage systems. The group is working on a code of practice to support professionals, and I hope the Minister will discuss this with her colleagues. There continue to be advances in battery technology, and I pay tribute to the work of the Faraday Institution’s SOLBAT project in seeking to bring solid-state batteries to the market.”
“In the short time that electric vehicles have been about, not many battery packs have reached the end of their eight-year life, and there were only 1,262 electric cars registered in the UK eight years ago. That is going to change. Petrol cars have significant safety risks too. Two cars in every 1,000 registered in the UK catch fire each year, but these are known to our fire services, who can extinguish petrol or diesel vehicle fires within one hour. By contrast, lithium-ion battery fires can take up to eight hours, and require different skills and tools to extinguish. Research from Newcastle University found that a damaged battery ignited twice within 24 hours and then again six days afterwards, with violent explosions being a potential feature of electric vehicle and lithium-ion battery fires.”
“Stockpiling is unsafe and environmentally undesirable, and it is illegal to send electric vehicle batteries to landfill, so if the direct reuse of a lithium battery is not possible, it must be recycled. There are further environmental considerations. Batteries are made with expensive and rare minerals, the mining of which raises environmental—and often human rights—concerns. Recycling helps to minimise the need for new mineral extraction and provides the UK with resilience in the light of supply chain risks. I hope the Minister will agree that we should be encouraging a significant recycling programme. There is also the safety risk. Without the capacity to recycle a large number of batteries appropriately and affordably, we could see overuse, fly-tipping and unregulated reselling.”
“Indeed, I should say that I underwent a revelation when I realised that the increasing demand for electric storage caused by the unpredictable or cyclical nature of many renewable energy sources, such as wind and tide, could be balanced quite literally by the fact that every car owner in the future will have a significant battery storage capacity sitting on their drive. That is true during the lifetime of the battery, but it is also a factor afterwards. For example, in China selling a reused end-of-life battery can raise up to 10 times more for the owner than recycling. However, second-life applications delay, rather than eliminate, the challenge of recycling. Research also suggests that safety issues increase with second-life applications, given the absence of a regulatory framework.”
“In the not-too-distant future, we are likely to be facing a large lithium-ion battery mountain with nowhere for it to go unless we put the processes in place now. Lithium batteries are not considered suitable for electric vehicle applications when their cell capacity falls below 80% of its original value. Their reuse at this point is known as second-life application, and there is interest in, for example, securing supplies to recondition for energy grid value balancing, or for using again in electric vehicles, or other applications.”
“The expanding electric vehicle market will mean many more lithium batteries, and the typical warranty period for these batteries is eight years, or 100,000 miles. Legislation requires that manufacturers take back the batteries, but it does not say what they should do with them. It says: “Producers of automotive batteries must collect waste automotive batteries for free from their final holders, such as garages and scrapyards.” There is no mention of lithium batteries in the Batteries and Accumulators (Placing on the Market) Regulations 2008, nor in the amendments in 2015. The European directive 2013/56/EU and the Capacity Labelling of Portable Secondary (Rechargeable) and Automotive Batteries and Accumulators Regulations all admit the legal framework for recycling. I hope the Minister will address that.”
“I am sure that the right hon. Lady will understand if I say that I shall be pressing the Minister to address how the investment will be coming to Newcastle and the north-east. Through this debate, I hope we can gain a greater understanding of the significant opportunity for our recycling sector across the country, but particularly the contribution that the north-east can make. The most common battery types in modern electric cars are lithium-ion. They hold a high-energy density, with up to 700 watt-hours per litre, which is seven times the density of traditional LED batteries. That means that lithium batteries are more suited for use in electric vehicles as they can hold charge for longer-distance journeys.”
“Will the Minister speak to her BEIS colleagues and meet me to discuss how Newcastle and the north-east can play a critical role in the safe storage, transportation and recycling of electric vehicle batteries? We clearly need a circular economy for lithium batteries. Regulations, codes and standards are an important part of this, as are research and development to deliver at-scale recycling facilities, and safety guidance and training. I hope the Minister will welcome the opportunity to work with me to ensure that Newcastle can be a centre for all those things.”
“I know that that is more a matter for the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, but I hope the Minister will speak to BEIS about it. Newcastle University is a centre of excellence in electric vehicles, leading a £300 million pound project entitled “Driving the Electric Revolution”. It has performed fascinating research on the systems integration of electric vehicle charging points. Northern Grid is actively looking at ways to integrate battery technology into the network. I am grateful for the Government’s commitment of £274 million between 2017 and 2021 to the Faraday Institution for research on the development and scale-up of world-leading battery technology in the UK. This has supported some of the research at Newcastle University. However, I am concerned that future funding remains unclear after this year.”
“Electric vehicle batteries are classed as hazardous waste, and the further they are transported, the greater the risk. As we have the skills in the north-east to support such a plant, we would welcome one in our region. We are a global leader in electric vehicles. The Washington Nissan plant introduced electric cars to Europe in 2011, creating a brand-new lithium battery plant from scratch in 18 months. Washington’s Envision-AESC factory is the first of its kind in the UK and leads the world in battery technology. It is eager to expand and exploit the new market opportunities offered by the lithium-ion technology revolution, and it has the knowledge to do so. We are going to need at least five battery gigafactories across the country to meet our decarbonisation targets—let us have one in the north-east.”
“I am sorry, but I need to give the Minister some time to answer my questions. At the moment, our fire services do not have the appropriate resources, training and personal protective equipment necessary to deal with these new challenges. It is estimated that up to 25% of the 510 fires in UK material recycling facilities in 2018 were caused by small lithium batteries. In 2019, one such fire in Dunbar, Scotland took over 40 firefighters to contain. A specialist training facility such as that proposed on Tyneside would have helped to reduce the pollution and damage. A recycling plant could have entirely avoided it. Recycling plants, touching on the point made by the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts), do need to be regional.”
“I thank the Minister for her comments, which have echoed much of my speech. Could she possibly focus on investment in Newcastle and the north-east, and specifically on the hub for recycling at scale?”
“I beg to move amendment 2, in clause 1, page 2, line 3, after “lessee in occupation” insert “, or a person who is a legal occupant of the property and who is in a contractual relationship with the lessee or freeholder,”. This amendment is intended to expand the definition of persons who can request an operator to provide an electronic telecommunications service to include rental tenants and other legal occupants who may not own the lease to the property they occupy.”