Stephen Farry
North Down · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“Speaking for a party that has a longer pedigree in advocating a public inquiry than both the DUP and Sinn Féin, I nonetheless welcome this announcement, despite the torturous path that we have had and, indeed, the missed opportunities.”
“The first was a reform of the petition of concern to take it back to the original intent when it was designed in 1998. It was clear at that stage that Arlene Foster banged the table and said, "No, never. We are not doing that. That is a way whereby we are going to have to fold on equal marriage: it's not happening".”
“<BR /> <BR />The main points that I make concern the substance of the order. There are probably three aspects that the Minister needs to address properly before the Assembly, and they really relate to what other options he has.”
“That raises the question of why they want to go as far as 2022, especially when I am not sure — I would welcome any clarification to the contrary on it — that there has been formal Executive approval of this.”
“<BR /> <BR />There are three major substantive issues that I do not believe have been properly aired on this: VAT; European Commission infraction proceedings; and, most important, the opportunity foregone to revisit the classification of Northern Ireland Water and the ability, through a separate water charge, to allow it to borrow commerc…”
“While my party was supportive of the Good Friday Agreement back in 1998, at that time, we expressed some reservations around the very detailed nature of the proposals and how those could, in due course, destabilise Northern Ireland and prevent us from realising our full potential. We have been very much vindicated in that analysis.”
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“Mr Allister has given me the opportunity, so let me be very clear: this is not a done deal or a process in which we are trying to convince people of the benefits of higher tuition fees in Northern Ireland. Let me honestly say that I am approaching it with an open mind. We do not have a blueprint of what we are trying to reach on the far side. It has to be a genuine iterative process in which, hopefully, we reach a consensus within this society as to where we want to go. The timing of this, in the current political context, is not ideal, but, nonetheless, it is imperative given the funding situation that our universities face plus the onset of the forthcoming spending round. <BR /> <BR />When we look to future funding, it is important that we acknowledge that there is a range of options.”
“I suppose that, on that basis, it is a useful opportunity to reinforce that when we talk about higher education, we are not simply talking about our three universities and our university colleges — the teacher-training colleges — but all six of our further education colleges. People may not appreciate that almost 20% of higher-level qualifications are delivered through the FE sector, so there is a very big further education footprint there. The colleges are going through their own pressures on the back of cuts. We are asking them to be as focused as they can on the strategic needs of the economy, and they are seeking to see what they can do about protecting the higher education provision that they offer. They also face the same funding challenges as the universities.”
“I am grateful to the Member for his question. There is an awareness across the three legs of the stool — my Department, DETI and Invest Northern Ireland — of the importance of skills to our ability to attract jobs into Northern Ireland. There is a growing recognition that it has to be turned around. It will not just be turned around by pumping in more money; more money has to go in on a strategic basis to make sure that we get the most out of the investments that we make. That means more and more targeted investments in the areas that are most relevant to the economy. <BR /> <BR />The Member also referred to further education being impacted.”
“<BR /> <BR />I rather fear that the impact of the cuts and an almost very singular approach to raiding public spending for other purposes leaves us in a situation in which the rungs in the ladder are breaking or falling away. We are in real danger of losing sight of what we are trying to do. We are not trying to keep people in poverty and keep pumping money into that system. It has to be about investing in such things as public health, early years education and, indeed, further and higher education, which we invest in to change people's lives and provide opportunities.”
“I thank the Member for his question and recognition of the approach that we are trying to take. It is worth stressing again the importance of higher education and the investment in high-level skills in general as a means of encouraging social mobility. <BR /> <BR />Particularly at a time when there is a lot of focus on how we address most effectively those who are disadvantaged in Northern Ireland, it is important to bear in mind that it is through investment in employment opportunities and schemes through to what we do in further and higher education that we will provide the ladder for people to access new opportunities.”
“The Member will also be aware that, in parallel with this, we have just closed a public consultation on a number of options for better support for part-time and postgraduate students, and we hope that we will be able to make policy decisions on the preferred options within the next couple of weeks.”
“I thank the Member for the question. Absolutely. It is important that we get away from the traditional assumption that all students who go through our higher education system are full-time undergraduates below the age of 21 or 22. We have great diversity in higher education provision already, and, at present, just under 40% of provision is part-time. We have a good mix already. <BR /> <BR />It is important that we seek to consolidate and build upon that very strong footprint, because that diversification will be more in line with the future needs of the economy. In some respects, it overlaps with what we propose for higher-level apprenticeships, and that necessitates a degree of part-time provision in university access, insofar as the apprenticeship framework is delivered at the appropriate level.”
“We want to make sure, particularly on the theme of widening participation, that those who wish to access higher education will continue to have that opportunity. That is why it is so important that we get the funding right and that we are able to offer the full range of opportunities across the board.”
“I thank the Member for his request. This is very much designed to reach out to all constituencies in Northern Ireland: geographically, different sections of the community and people at different stages of their education. It is important that we encourage progression pathways that allow people to reach their full potential. For some, that will be progression through to university. In other cases, it will be through further education or through to apprenticeships. <BR /> <BR />We are developing a suite of provision, including the new apprenticeship strategy and the youth training strategy — the new system that we announced in June 2015 — and that provides a range of different opportunities. It is important that we have good, strong careers advice that will assist people to find the pathway most suitable for them.”
“We are in a constant process of encouraging universities to be as efficient as possible, but they also understand that they need to be efficient because their resource base is shrinking. They will have to make the assessments themselves on value for money and decide what to do in the delivery of their business and operational plans.”
“Our universities are autonomous institutions, and government is a major funder of those bodies. We already talked about the sources of that funding, and 37% of funding comes directly from the state, but it is not for me as Minister to micro-manage how money is spent in the universities. However, we have had discussions with them at a high strategic level on how they would approach the cuts. In the past couple of weeks, we have received a lot of detail from Ulster University on how it is approaching the issue. <BR /> <BR />We have made requests, and the response from the universities has been very focused on the maximisation of what we can do in front-line provision. That includes, most clearly, the number of student places, but it also means that we should do what we can in research, which is also a key driver of our economy.”
“The Member will be aware of changes in that area happening in England, and the Assembly will have to get its head around that as well, given the impact that we will see in a negative Barnett consequential to our block grant arising from that. That will be a separate challenge. <BR /> <BR />The final point that the Member made was on rural provision. That is not to be directly addressed as part of the Big Conversation process. However, that is, I believe, project number 10 in our higher education strategy, and work is well advanced in discussions, including with the South West College, on the outcomes that the Member alluded to. Hopefully, there will be announcements to be made on that in the near future.”
“Well done for being the first person to mention the word "fees". We got through five Members before getting to that point. <BR /> <BR />Let me say clearly that this is not a consultation about whether we do or do not have fees. Of course, all options have to be on the table, and fees are one of many options, but it is important that we do not knee-jerk into this becoming a bipolar discussion abut whether people are in favour of fees or not. If we look to models outside these islands, we will see different mixes of funding in different European countries and elsewhere. There may well be lessons that we want to pick up from those models. <BR /> <BR />In terms of student support beyond fees, we have very good systems in maintenance grants and loans.”
“We launched the strategy in June 2014 and are well under way on pilot work. We are in advanced discussions with the universities on having almost degree-level apprenticeship pilots when students would be in employment and also part-time students on an apprenticeship framework. That is an area that we want to see developed much more over the coming months and years.”
“I thank the Member for her comments about the concept that we are launching. This is to be different from the traditional approach to public consultation, as we are trying to engage more with stakeholders and have ongoing dialogue as people work their way through the evidence to find the particular solution for Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />One thing that we do need to be conscious of, as the Member alluded to, is how we attain high-level skills in our economy. We see evidence from other countries of different mixes between universities — the traditional academic route — and developed vocational pathways. The Germanic countries are a case in point. <BR /> <BR />We also have an opportunity for universities to engage on apprenticeships or types of learning akin to the apprenticeship model.”
“However, we cannot continue down our current path; we need to make a decision. There are models in these islands and elsewhere in the world that we can look to and use to inform the decision that we take, but we have to take a decision one way or another, including as early as the comprehensive spending review that is coming up later this autumn, about how we are going to take this forward. We cannot go on the way we are going.”
“Distinct from that, we have the situation where we are seeing a net loss of places. That loss will disproportionately impact on those who are coming from disadvantaged backgrounds. In that context, in the wider funding for higher education, there is a threat to widening participation outcomes, and it is important that we are very clear in that regard. <BR /> <BR />That leads to the issue of funding. I am very clearly saying that the current course that we are going down in Northern Ireland in higher education is simply not sustainable. Something has to give, one way or another. This process is designed to be iterative, where we work out a range of options or, indeed, reach a consensus around one particular option as to what we are going to do in Northern Ireland.”
“I am happy to assure the Member that widening participation will be a key theme in taking this process forward. It will be useful to break this down into two different components in order to be very clear about what is happening. We have what the universities do around widening participation in their engagement and their policies. We are not seeing any deterioration in the level of engagement. Members will be aware that we have taken a decision to deregulate, to an extent, how the universities manage their commitments around widening participation. That gives them more freedom and allows some money to be freed up, and that has avoided even worse cuts to the number of places. <BR /> <BR />In that context, however, the universities are very clear that they will maintain the current standards.”
“<BR /> <BR />Whenever we see a cut in the number of places, those people affected, who are disproportionately disadvantaged, will either be forced to consider going to Great Britain and will have to pay higher fees or will not have the opportunity to go at all, and their life opportunities will be sorely missed. I appreciate that there are wider discussions to be had around our Budget and on welfare, but it is important that we have a reality check on what we are doing. If we have a singular focus on transfer payments to people, we will have a good system for those who are on welfare, but we will not be sufficiently investing in the ladder that allows people to escape from dependency and have the life opportunities that they deserve. It is important that we have a balanced approach to tackling problems of disadvantage in our society.”
“<BR /> <BR />We see a situation where, shall we say, those who tend to come from more affluent backgrounds can more readily access university through their qualifications. When that competition becomes ever tighter, those who may have not done so well in their academic qualifications hitherto may struggle to get in. That is not a reflection on their ability because, once people get into university, they will progress along different pathways. However, when we have existing patterns of disadvantage and different patterns of primary and secondary education provision, we have different types of outcomes and pathways that feed into our university system.”
“I thank the Member for her question. It is very good to see that the Speaker is ahead of the curve on the eventual merger of Departments and Committees. <BR /> <BR />The Member identifies a very core point. Our universities have been very good and have a better track record than their counterparts elsewhere in the UK in attracting people from a range of backgrounds, including those from disadvantaged backgrounds. As we well know, as well as benefiting our economy, investing in people's skills enables them to access a wider range of employment opportunities. The difficulty we have, in the context of disinvesting, is that we are seeing fewer places, and that will have a disproportionate impact on those who come from more disadvantaged backgrounds.”
“However, if we find — this is particularly true if we move to a lower level of corporation tax in the next couple of years — that, on one hand, we are putting out there a very attractive offer but are, at the same time, undermining our ability to deliver, what we will be doing is, potentially, extremely counterproductive. So, it is important that we get this right and that we have a very wide-ranging and important discussion to make sure that we, as an Executive, make the right investments through whichever option ultimately finds the widest consensus.”
“The point that I have to make very clearly is that we have been and continue to be very successful, based upon what we have done in higher education up to now. However — at this point, I need to be extremely clear and direct — we are in danger of undermining our ability to attract investment into Northern Ireland if we continue down the road of disinvesting in what we are doing around higher education. This process is incredibly important not just for our universities but for the future of the Northern Ireland economy, because we depend very much upon the skills of our people; that is the only natural resource that we have. Those skills come from those who go through the universities. There are other pathways as well through higher-level apprenticeships, and we can talk about how we can diversify and develop those high-level skills.”
“Starting from the second point and moving backwards, I can very much give the Committee Chair that reassurance. This is meant to be an interactive and participative process. We are trying to move beyond the traditional model of public consultation to try to reach quarters that maybe do not normally engage in public policymaking processes. All the interest groups that the Chair references are very much part of our target audiences, and we will be working with them. There may be some events that are tailored to some of those groups in particular. I know that the universities themselves are very keen to engage in the process as well because they appreciate the magnitude of this. <BR /> <BR />With respect to the Chair's first point, there is not a contradiction in this.”
“One thing that most people do agree on is that our higher education system is a worthy investment, regardless of where that investment comes from. During this process, I hope that we can strengthen that sentiment, particularly as we begin to think about our priorities moving into the next comprehensive spending review period. <BR /> <BR />After this process is completed, I will be taking stock of the options available to us and presenting them to the Executive.”
“During this process, I will not be advocating any one solution or another. If I were to do so, it would invariably narrow the scope of the debate and undermine the entire process. Our discussions should be as broad as possible. No options should be off the table, and we will doubtless hear a wide range of views from different groups, organisations and individuals.”
“<BR /> <BR />In recent years, the higher education landscape, including the funding landscape, has changed dramatically in every other part of the UK, with different regions taking very different approaches to ensure that their systems remain sustainable. The sustainability of the English funding system now rests on higher tuition fees, but, in Scotland, they have gone in the opposite direction, with free tuition for local students, and they rely instead on high levels of public investment. Now it is our turn to find our unique solution. We all need to be involved in that process. It is time that we had a discussion about what alternatives might work for us here in Northern Ireland.”
“My Department and other stakeholders will hold a number of events to encourage people to get involved in the discussion. The second stage will also be themed across three weeks. The first week’s theme will be economy and skills, the second week's will be quality and accessibility, and the stage will conclude with sustainability in the third week. <BR /> <BR />Across the world, countries and regions approach higher education in different ways, with different combinations of public and individual financing for core teaching, different profiles in attracting external finance and different approaches to the provision of the high-level skills demanded by modern economies.”
“Previous discussions about higher education funding have focused quite narrowly on public grants and tuition fees, but those two sources combined account for only about two thirds of our higher education institutions’ income sources. <BR /> <BR />In the final week of stage 1, we will have built up to some of the most pressing challenges that we face now, with a special focus on our skills and funding challenges. We will also look at different funding systems in place for higher education in other parts of the world, not just the UK, and think about the lessons that we can learn from them. <BR /> <BR />In the second stage of the Big Conversation, equipped with the knowledge gained in stage 1, people will be invited to tell us what they think about some of our most critical issues and how they think that we should deal with them.”
“<BR /> <BR />In next week’s theme, we will show people how we deliver and fund higher education in Northern Ireland. Often, when people talk about higher education, they do not look beyond traditional full-time study at our universities, but there is a wide range of delivery models available beyond the traditional routes. Under my Department’s new apprenticeship model, for example, more people than ever before will be able to earn while they learn, combining higher-level study through our universities and colleges with sustained and related employment. Similarly, it often goes unappreciated that most universities are autonomous bodies responsible for their own affairs and able to access significant sources of funding beyond those provided through public sources.”
“<BR /> <BR />The first stage will focus on informing people about why higher education is important, how we deliver and fund it and the challenges that we face. My Department will run informative "Did you know?" surveys online, distributing information through a wide range of channels and organising various events. In this first week, we will demonstrate to people exactly why we need higher education by showing them the various benefits that we accrue from it as an economy, as a society and at an individual level. People are, for example, often aware of the benefits that higher education can bring for individuals, mainly the improved employment outcomes, but, often, the wider economic benefits of skills provision, job and wealth creation, and the attraction of investment and so on are not fully appreciated.”
“It will hinder our economic growth and jeopardise our proud record of participation and fair access. <BR /> <BR />That is the context in which I am launching the Big Conversation. Over the next couple of months, my Department will work in cooperation with a range of stakeholders to engage with people about those challenges and to encourage a wider discussion about potential solutions. That staged approach is to ensure that the discussions we have during the Big Conversation, and the decisions that we make thereafter, are as informed as possible. That is precisely why matters such as higher education are devolved: to allow us to make our own decisions about what is best for Northern Ireland.”
“<BR /> <BR />The picture becomes even bleaker when we consider that, compared with other parts of the UK, our higher education system has already been significantly underfunded for some time. Even last year, our universities were underfunded by between £1,000 and £2,500 per student compared with their English counterparts, depending on their subject areas. We are now the only region in the UK actively disinvesting in higher education, at a time when it has never been more intrinsic to our success. As time goes on, our continued disinvestment will compromise not only the size of our higher education system but the quality of its provision. It will stifle the ability of our providers to compete with their closest competitors and on an international stage.”
“<BR /> <BR />More students will now likely go to study in Great Britain. Northern Ireland is already the only net exporter of students in the UK, with almost a third of our young people choosing to go to England, Scotland or Wales every year, and far fewer coming the other way. When those students leave, they take with them a whole host of socio-economic benefits, and the figures show that about two thirds of them do not return to Northern Ireland for employment. More regrettably than that, others who do not gain a place here might simply decide not to enter higher education. The evidence suggests that people from disadvantaged backgrounds will be affected most of all.”
“My budget is almost exclusively used to enhance our skills base and to help people into employment. About one half of it is used to fund higher education. All other options for savings were explored before, regrettably, I had to turn to higher education. There has been an almost unavoidable impact on our universities and colleges. <BR /> <BR />This academic year, our universities and university colleges will be taking cuts of over £16 million and our further education colleges about £12 million, with an obvious impact on their higher education provision. As a consequence, we are witnessing a very real impact on student places and staff posts. Queen's and Ulster University, our two largest universities, are taking over 500 fewer local students this year, rising to nearly 2,000 over the next few years.”
“The majority of students pay their tuition fees through student loans, which are financed and heavily subsidised by the wider taxpayer, so the dynamic between public and private funding is far from clear cut. <BR /> <BR />In 2011, the Executive decided to freeze tuition fees for local students studying in Northern Ireland, subject only to inflationary uplifts, and that commitment is written into our Programme for Government. While tuition fees have remained frozen, the level of public funding that is made available for higher education through my Department has decreased, year on year. The rate of this disinvestment has intensified significantly this year. <BR /> <BR />In the current financial year, my Department's baseline budget has been reduced by some 8·4%.”
“<BR /> <BR />In Northern Ireland, higher education is funded through a wide variety of sources, public and private. Public investment comes, in the main, through grants from my Department, which currently account for nearly 40% of our higher education institutions' incomes, but our universities can also attract funding from a wide range of other public sources, for example from Research Councils UK. <BR /> <BR />Private investment can also come from a variety of sources, including industry partners. The largest source of private investment comes from students themselves in the form of their tuition fees, which account for about 30% of our higher education institutions' incomes.”
“Our universities and colleges are open to everyone with the ability and will to learn, whatever their background and circumstances. <BR /> <BR />Skills and qualifications are one of the surest ways for people to improve their life opportunities and employment prospects. Almost half of our young people are now entering higher education and a higher proportion of them are coming from disadvantaged backgrounds than in any other part of the UK. This is testament to the inclusivity of our higher education system and the ability of our people. <BR /> <BR />Higher education is one of our most important enablers of social mobility, social cohesion and social change. Unfortunately, the financial sustainability of our higher education system has come under serious pressure over the last number of years, putting all these benefits at risk.”
“<BR /> <BR />Beyond the provision of skills, our universities and colleges make significant contributions to our economy as businesses in their own right. Each year, they support thousands of jobs and generate billions of pounds of spending in our economy, not only through their own activities but through multiplier effects, which stimulate other businesses and industries. Their research and innovation attracts investment from all over the world, they help businesses innovate and grow through their commercial interactions and knowledge-exchange activities, and they generate hundreds of successful spin-out companies, each with their own unique contributions to make. <BR /> <BR />Our higher education system does more than fuel our economy.”
“The demand for higher-level skills will not only come from growing indigenous companies but from new investors. Northern Ireland is already the leading UK region for attracting inward investment outside of London and, time and again, companies cite our highly skilled workforce and the strength of our higher education system as integral in their decisions to invest in this region. <BR /> <BR />Our higher education system and the highly skilled workforce that it supports is now therefore one of the most crucial components of our investment narrative, and its role will become even more important under a potentially lower rate of corporation tax in the future. Indeed, the forecasts are clear that even current levels of supply will not be enough. We need to expand our skills base, not merely protect what we have.”
“It will also explore the challenges that our higher education system is facing and draw on the ways in which higher education is delivered and funded in other parts of the world. The second stage, to run from 5 October to 23 October, will invite people to have their say about the future of our higher education system. <BR /> <BR />Provision of higher education provides economic and societal benefits. As we continue to grow our knowledge economy, all our skills forecasts indicate a clear and growing demand for higher-level skills, not only at degree level and above, offered, in the main, through our universities and university colleges, but through our new system of apprenticeships, with a focus on higher-level provision, plus sub-degree levels, in which our further education colleges specialise.”
“I wish to inform the Assembly that I am today launching the first stage of the Higher Education Big Conversation. The Big Conversation is an innovative and experimental approach to engaging with people about an incredibly important issue in Northern Ireland, namely the sustainability and the future of our higher education system. It will run from today until 23 October. The process is going to be iterative, exploring a range of weekly themes across two main stages, and building up to address some of the most critical issues now facing our higher education system. <BR /> <BR />The first stage, which will run from 15 September to 2 October, is designed to inform or remind people about why higher education is so important and how it is delivered and funded.”
“It is why trust and confidence have broken down between parties. That has been magnified by our structures, and we are moving from one crisis to another. Let us get it fixed properly this time.”
“We clearly have a rule-of-law challenge that involves not just the fallout from a particular murder but a situation in which paramilitarism is a cancer in our society and has a degree of social control across many communities. That is not just about what happens with organised crime but about the relationships that build up between different people who take on the guise of gatekeepers in communities and about how political parties and the state respond to them. <BR /> <BR />We have a challenge with the Stormont House Agreement, particularly in the implementation of welfare reform and budgets. In some respects, power-sharing has broken down because the normal give and take, compromise and the sense of reality about the framework in which we operate have been lost. We have to reflect on that.”
“It is also the focal point for local decision-making and accountability, which are incredibly important. We are also able to deliver different outcomes from those in other parts of the United Kingdom, on other parts of the island of Ireland and, indeed, in other parts of Europe and the world. There is one small example today that is worth reflecting on. In Westminster, some very draconian legislation on trade unions is being moved forward. Employment law is devolved in Northern Ireland. We are able to say that we are not entertaining that type of reform here, and I have taken that decision as a devolved Minister. That is just one tangible outcome of what we have under devolution. <BR /> <BR />We have many challenges ahead.”
“It is the forum at which the different political traditions in Northern Ireland can share power together.”
“We are going to see the collapse of devolution and elections or suspension with the return of direct rule or, indeed, some form of joint authority, or we will see some refreshed version of devolution where we have the opportunity for a fresh start with the people of Northern Ireland, where we can reflect on what has gone wrong over the past number of years and set that right, begin to fully deliver for the people of Northern Ireland and seize the opportunities that are out there for us. <BR /> <BR />I think it is important that we bear in mind the importance of devolution and what it offers to the people of Northern Ireland. At times, people are rightly cynical about where we are today. Devolution is the forum through which we bring reconciliation together at a political level.”
“Quite clearly, as we meet this afternoon, we are in a very difficult situation. The latest point in this deterioration in the sustainability of devolution is that we have only just over half the Government in place. That is not a tenable situation and not one that is really going to be at all credible with the public, even on a short-term basis, never mind a long-term basis. <BR /> <BR />So, something will have to give over the coming weeks, one way or another.”
“— 15 years on from the Good Friday Agreement.”
“We also have the situation where, under any potential exclusion, a party can veto its exclusion, even where there is compelling objective evidence and everyone says that it points to a major breach of principles. Again, that is not tenable. We need safeguards to protect any party from arbitrary dismissal due to political whims, but that has to be tightened up. <BR /> <BR />We also need to consider some alternative to the IMC of before. Something similar to that needs to be considered for our current circumstances. Finally, we need a strategy to challenge the legacy of paramilitarism and the control that paramilitaries have in communities across Northern Ireland, loyalist and republican, and ensure that we finally eradicate that and that we see the proper disbandment of paramilitaries —”