Stephen Farry
North Down · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“Speaking for a party that has a longer pedigree in advocating a public inquiry than both the DUP and Sinn Féin, I nonetheless welcome this announcement, despite the torturous path that we have had and, indeed, the missed opportunities.”
“The first was a reform of the petition of concern to take it back to the original intent when it was designed in 1998. It was clear at that stage that Arlene Foster banged the table and said, "No, never. We are not doing that. That is a way whereby we are going to have to fold on equal marriage: it's not happening".”
“<BR /> <BR />The main points that I make concern the substance of the order. There are probably three aspects that the Minister needs to address properly before the Assembly, and they really relate to what other options he has.”
“That raises the question of why they want to go as far as 2022, especially when I am not sure — I would welcome any clarification to the contrary on it — that there has been formal Executive approval of this.”
“<BR /> <BR />There are three major substantive issues that I do not believe have been properly aired on this: VAT; European Commission infraction proceedings; and, most important, the opportunity foregone to revisit the classification of Northern Ireland Water and the ability, through a separate water charge, to allow it to borrow commerc…”
“While my party was supportive of the Good Friday Agreement back in 1998, at that time, we expressed some reservations around the very detailed nature of the proposals and how those could, in due course, destabilise Northern Ireland and prevent us from realising our full potential. We have been very much vindicated in that analysis.”
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“An interruption does not just affect the organisation that may have contributed to the situation but can penalise everyone who benefits from the European social fund, so it is important that we go through the rigour of the process. I appreciate that it is hugely frustrating to organisations, and it is no doubt frustrating to my officials, who, maybe despite people's perceptions to the contrary, do not like having to be bureaucrats around these issues. But, if we do not, the damage that will be done to groups accessing much-needed resources will be much greater than the difficulty of processing payments.”
“Payment issues in the current process should not have had an impact on the current application process. We have addressed at length the concerns expressed by Members in relation to the current application process and taken action based on the representations that we have received, but it is important to bear it in mind that the Department seeks to make payments promptly. We tend to work towards the standard 10-day turnaround period for payments advocated by Account NI. <BR /> <BR />It is important to bear in mind the context in which we have to be rigorous in ensuring that we have proper paper trails justifying payments made to organisations, particularly with European money. If we fail to operate within the rules and regulations coming down from the European Commission, we will have interruptions in the delivery of the programmes.”
“Funding is provided to community and voluntary sector groups to deliver the community family support programme, the collaboration and innovation fund and the local employment intermediary service throughout Northern Ireland. These programmes were designed to implement the Executive's Pathway to Success strategy to support young people not in employment, education or training. Under the current round, funding is also provided from the European social fund (ESF) to 95 voluntary and community sector organisations.”
“<BR /> <BR />On extrapolation from the estimates across the UK, we would have an upper limit of about 28,000 people on zero-hours contracts in Northern Ireland. I imagine that, in practice, the figure is lower. We are having a little difficulty in getting precise figures, not least because there is no agreed understanding of what a zero-hours contract is. That is one of the processes that we want to bottom out in any formal legislative process. We are working with organisations including the Office for National Statistics and InterTradeIreland to get a more accurate picture of the numbers in Northern Ireland in advance of that.”
“I will start with the Member's last point. In general, yes; the more we invest in higher-level skills, the more the nature of our employment will change. However, we need to be very careful of generalisations. While the bulk of zero-hours contracts may well be for lower-paid positions, which is where there are particular dangers for vulnerable workers, it is important to bear it in mind that they are used in a range of scenarios, including professional and highly skilled areas. Zero-hours contracts may well make sense for those professions or professionals, which is another reason why we need to be a little careful about going for a blanket, one-size-fits-all approach in trying to address the issue.”
“OK, I will be as comprehensive as I can in as short a time as I can. <BR /> <BR />Enforcement lies in the tried and tested mechanism of tribunals. However, first recourse should always be to the Labour Relations Agency, which has a suite of available dispute resolution techniques. <BR /> <BR />Let me be clear that I am seeking to facilitate legislation coming to the House. The decision on whether there is to be a ban will be for Members to take collectively on the basis of that legislation and whether any amendments along those lines can carry majority support. Exclusivity, whereby people are tied to one contract or denied opportunities to find work elsewhere, is a problem. It is seen as particularly unjust and a clear-cut example of where we should take action.”
“I thank the Member for her question. I assume, Mr Deputy Speaker, that that diktat does not apply to me giving my opinion in my answers.”
“— how often people work during the working week.”
“In some cases, semi-retired people or students will choose them, but, in the vast bulk of cases, they are the only employment option that is open to people, and there is a danger of exploitation. We need to be careful, however, that, in seeking to address that in a proportionate way, we do not inadvertently create a situation in which we cut off employment opportunities in our economy because employers are prepared only to contemplate creating opportunities in the context of having some flexibility over —”
“<BR /> <BR />There may be situations in which employers can provide an objective justification for zero-hours contracts. That is why we have created that potential duty on employers to make the case that that is why it has to be the case, rather than simply casually going for that option. This type of employment contract is not unique to Northern Ireland; it is used increasingly in Great Britain, probably at a higher level and in greater numbers on a per capita basis. It is also used in other jurisdictions. It is important that we move with the times with regulation. <BR /> <BR />I am fully aware of all the difficulties that zero-hours contracts can pose to many people.”
“The Member is entitled to his view and his analysis. Indeed, in the event that the Executive clear proposals to allow clauses in zero-hours contracts to be a part of a forthcoming employment Bill, the Committee will have the opportunity to scrutinise and to propose amendments, as will other Members, on the Floor of the Assembly. The House will find the natural level of what it believes is appropriate for Northern Ireland. However, we need to be conscious of the fact that a number of businesses in Northern Ireland are using the contracts at present. Am I seeking to justify that? No, I am not. I need to be mindful, however, of the fact that, if the House goes for a disproportionate response to the problem, there is a risk that we will inadvertently force people out of job opportunities.”
“We could see a situation in which unscrupulous employers, if they are forced to move people from zero-hours contracts after a specific time into a permanent contract, will simply dismiss those workers, not least because they are outside the qualifying period for unfair dismissal, and seek to hire other people or to rehire people on a different contract. We need to be careful because an outright ban might not be effective. We are proposing a proportionate response, which I believe goes a long way to addressing the needs of vulnerable workers and goes further than what is being legislated for in the UK Parliament for Great Britain.”
“Let me be very clear: I am not here to justify zero-hours contracts. I want an economy that is built on high-level skills and is based on people having security and sustainability in their work. We have to recognise, however, that we are seeing a casualisation of the labour market, and there may be circumstances in which businesses wish to make a case for the continued use of zero-hours contracts. While I am very alert to the demands from a lot of stakeholders and Members for an outright ban on zero-hours contracts, we need to be careful that we do not go for a disproportionate response to what is nonetheless a clear and difficult problem and that we do not end up inadvertently putting people out of work.”
“I am conscious that many vulnerable workers may not feel comfortable in exercising that right, so I propose to include additional provisions that will require an employer to review and justify the continuance of a zero-hours contract after a specified period. I also propose to establish a statutory code of practice that will bring much-needed clarity to employers’ obligations and workers’ rights. <BR /> <BR />Finally, I have written to the Minister for Social Development to secure his support for a joint departmental project to develop more responsive processes that will assist vulnerable workers in accessing their benefit entitlements.”
“In response, I intend using my Department’s forthcoming employment Bill, which is being drafted, to establish a clear, unambiguous definition of zero-hours and non-guaranteed-hours contracts and to prohibit the use of exclusivity clauses. <BR /> <BR />A total ban could be readily circumvented, so I intend to include enabling provisions to allow for the introduction of anti-avoidance and enforcement measures. Enabling powers will also establish a right for workers to request a fixed-hours contract after a specified period, which an employer will only be able to refuse on objective business grounds.”
“The consultation identified a number of critical issues; in particular, a general acceptance that exclusivity clauses are not appropriate in the majority of employment contracts. There is also a need for a clear, unambiguous legal definition of zero-hours and other non-guaranteed-hours contracts. Although the appropriate use of these contracts can contribute to labour market flexibility, it is clear that they can have an adverse impact on vulnerable workers, particularly in accessing benefits and credit. <BR /> <BR />The increasing casualisation of the labour market requires a proportionate response to protect the rights of workers. The consultation feedback indicated difficulties experienced by workers in accessing benefits and a desire by many for a move to fixed contracts.”
“It is almost certain that we will have major events in Belfast and Derry once again, given that we have had very successful events in the past 12 months in both of those locations. We are open to working in any part of Northern Ireland where the demand and critical mass is identified to make such an event sustainable.”
“At this stage, we do not have a definitive list of numbers or, indeed, locations for job fairs, but I say to the Member, and indeed others, that this is not something that we are seeking to ration. This is something that is a good thing to do because what we are here to do is to shift people into employment to meet the needs of people who are unemployed and also to address the requirements of employers to fill vacancies or to create jobs where maybe an employer has not yet even identified a vacancy but may be encouraged to take someone on to increase their productivity. <BR /> <BR />As and when we see the opportunity arising in different parts of Northern Ireland, we will take up those opportunities.”
“We will be out working with employers to see whether the opportunities arise. There is a very strong focus upon lessons learned.”
“I am almost tempted to say that the event was so successful because they knew that the Member was due to attend in his capacity as MP. I am sure that a few others came along for reasons apart from that. <BR /> <BR />We do seek feedback from these events, both from participants and from the employers, because we have to have a process of continual learning. The feedback that we have received to date about these events from both sides has been very positive. Whether we are talking about Tyrone and Fermanagh or about County Londonderry, we are more than happy to consider further such events based upon a critical mass of demand emerging from employers. Our staff will be very proactive in engaging with employers to try to create those opportunities. We are not sitting here in a passive way waiting for people to come knocking on our door.”
“The Member will also be aware that, with South West College, there is a huge resource in the local community that is there to interact directly with businesses and to ensure that we are bringing forward young people, and indeed people of other ages, with the skills that are relevant to employers in the community.”
“I am very mindful of regional opportunities, and the Member will be aware that the Executive have set up a subcommittee to look at them. That was sparked primarily by issues in the north-west, though I know that, depending on how you define "the north-west", you can potentially include Omagh. That working group is not exclusively focused on the north-west; it looks at other aspects of balance across Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />Of course, we are very keen to work as an Executive as a whole — particularly me working with the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment — to ensure that we are creating job opportunities anywhere that we can. My officials stand ready to work with companies to address their skill needs.”
“<BR /> <BR />My officials are extremely proactive in the Omagh area, and I am aware that they are working with Primark to host a customised recruitment event during April this year for a new store that is due to open in the town centre in September. That is good news for jobseekers in that area. Should the opportunity arise this year, based upon sufficient demand from employers to participate in a job fair in the Omagh area, my officials are available to organise and facilitate any such event.”
“My officials work closely with employers and actively pursue opportunities to facilitate job fairs and employer breakfast events to promote the services of my Department, as well as recruitment events for individual employers across Northern Ireland. Bringing job fairs into local communities has proven to be a very successful means of assisting people back into work. When planning to host a job fair, my Department carefully considers the number of job opportunities that employers have made available in any particular location, and it establishes whether there is sufficient interest and demand from local companies to participate.”
“I do not want to comment on the particular case that the Member raised, but if he wants to get in touch with me directly, I will be happy to investigate it, rather than to comment on something on the Floor without knowing the full background to the case.”
“Like Steps to Work and, indeed, any other scheme, we receive correspondence from participants who raise issues about the delivery of schemes. That is why we place a strong focus on continued monitoring. We do not simply hand out contracts to organisations and then say, "Off you go and address that." The state has a fundamental interest in ensuring that those schemes are delivered correctly and in line with our overarching policy objectives. Where we believe there are situations where rules have been interpreted incorrectly or we see unjust outcomes or situations emerging, we will make representations.”
“<BR /> <BR />We are looking to see what elements of the youth employment scheme can be mainstreamed through our front-line employment service offer. We are looking to see how far, within existing resources, we can go to continue with aspects of the youth employment scheme. I am happy to keep the Member informed of any further developments on that over the coming weeks.”
“The Member is quite right to continue to focus on youth unemployment. While our youth unemployment figures in Northern Ireland are improving — we have seen a fairly significant move on that in recent months — they are still a significant challenge, although, of course, not on the same scale as we are experiencing in other parts of Europe. The youth employment scheme has been successful. However, it was funded through a dedicated funding stream that the Executive authorised in spring 2012 and that comes to its natural end in March 2015. Other things being equal in terms of the availability of resources, we would have liked to bid for that scheme to continue, but, sadly, that has not been the case.”
“<BR /> <BR />Of course, the Member rightly identified the fact that we need to invest more in job creation. That is at the heart of everything that the Executive are trying to do. We need to ensure that we have a steady stream of people coming through a whole range of different skill levels into our labour market to take advantage of jobs that are being created. There are inefficiencies within our labour market, and those are long term and structural. Programmes such as this are vital to try to address the vicious circle that we experienced in the past.”
“Very much so. One of the key aspects of the new programme is a service guarantee. It is worth referring to the work programme in Great Britain where they have what is termed a "black box" — once someone moves into the work programme, they are effectively out of sight and out of mind in terms of the interaction with the state. That is not the case in Northern Ireland. Again, because of our local circumstances and because of the opportunities of devolution, we did things differently. The service guarantee is there to ensure that there are minimum standards and that there is no temptation for contractors to work with those clients that they perceive could be more readily moved into work. Every person coming forward will have an individually tailored package that addresses their needs.”
“At this stage, it is too early to have an indication of those who may not complete the programme. Of course, there can be benign reasons for not completing the programme, in that someone is moving into work. On the other hand, there may be those who go through the programme without progressing into work. The programme is moving more towards incentives; it is not as heavily focused on formal job outward placements compared with the comparative programme in Great Britain but is a combination of job attachment and sustained employment outcomes that will measure success. I think that that is the best way of going. That reflects local design of the programme to reflect the circumstances in Northern Ireland.”
“Each contractor has into work targets and sustained work targets that are higher than the outcomes attained in Steps to Work. By 20 February, over 13,500 people had started on the programme. Independently verified information on programme performance will be available from the autumn of 2016 onwards once participants have completed the programme and job sustainment can be measured.”
“They can include job search activity, vocational training, confidence building, preparation of CVs, assistance with health-related issues and short work placements. The progression to employment plan will be updated on a regular basis to take account of improvements in the participant's employability and actions for the future. Contractors also work with local small, medium and large employers to identify job vacancies for job-ready participants. The level of service delivered to each participant is underwritten by a service guarantee that defines the minimum level of service they receive. <BR /> <BR />My Department has contract management and quality improvement teams that are already monitoring to ensure that a high quality service is delivered to all.”
“Steps 2 Success is my Department’s main programme for assisting unemployed and economically inactive people to find and sustain employment. Contracts were awarded on 8 July 2014, and the programme became operational on 20 October. The three organisations awarded the contracts were as follows: Ingeus in the greater Belfast and surrounding area; Reed in Partnership in the south and south-west; and EOS NI in the north and north-west. <BR /> <BR />Each organisation has local supply chain partners to provide full geographical coverage and specialist support for all participants. The delivery organisations work with each participant to identify their individual barriers to finding work, and they agree a progression to employment plan. That plan will outline the actions to be taken by the participant and the contractor.”
“I think the motion is overly specific. It is an interesting debate and I look forward to continuing to work on the issue.”
“It is about a consolidation of courses, although, obviously, there is a wider threat to places. We are yet to hear exactly how the universities are going to handle the cuts that, sadly, have to be passed on to them. <BR /> <BR />I also want to stress that we are committed to looking to develop the teaching block. I have signed off the business case in that regard and it is currently with DFP for review and approval. Once that is received we will look at the options as to how to proceed with that as quickly as we can. <BR /> <BR />I think the amendment probably downplays the issue a bit too much.”
“I am prepared to take Members in good faith and, indeed, concur with them that it would be a good thing to do with our resources; but, given the scale and difficulties we have had in making reforms in public expenditure to date, I suggest that a lot of work and a lot of reconsideration of positions is going to be required if it is to become a reality. <BR /> <BR />We have made some good progress towards the One Plan. Unfortunately, that has now sadly come to a halt due to the budget cuts. Hopefully we will be able to maintain the current levels, but decisions will have to be made by the University of Ulster in that regard. Just because we have seen leaks of announcements around courses, that does not necessarily, in itself, translate into a reduction in places.”
“We can examine all those issues. I am not sure whether Peace IV in itself would be the best vehicle for that, but there is other potential, through European funding programmes, to consolidate the position of higher education on the island as a whole. However, any assistance we get in that regard will be, at best, marginal to the costs I have outlined. Nothing will escape Members having to find that £70 million. <BR /> <BR />I just want to highlight and make sure that, if people are serious about the expansion of Magee, they understand the scale of the financial commitment required to make it happen.”
“<BR /> <BR />Any further investment in Magee should be regarded as an investment in higher level skills for Northern Ireland as a whole. I reiterate that my central objective is to ensure that Northern Ireland continues to have a world-class and internationally recognised higher education sector and that we can build further on this platform over the coming years. Members have made reference to the investments that we have been able to make in our higher education sector over the past number of years, including well over 1,000 additional university places in STEM subjects.”
“<BR /> <BR />I want to make it clear that our classic university model is not the only means to achieve the higher level skills that our economy requires. We are also developing higher level apprenticeships. Often, apprenticeships will be a more fruitful pathway to providing the skills that employers require and to give young people in particular the skills that will give them better prospects of securing and sustaining employment. Under our new apprenticeship strategy, there can be a link between higher level apprenticeships and degrees, and I hope that that would be a central part of any expansion of the Magee campus, again, linking in the content of degrees much more closely to the needs of the economy and employers.”
“I would also remind those who tabled the motion that going into the last Assembly election and, indeed, into the tuition fees settlement, the higher education policy that they adopted was, in common with everyone else, to ring-fence and freeze tuition fees at the current level. However, rather than investing additional resources to pay for the funding gap, the SDLP advocated taking money out of the reserves of the universities. If that position had been followed through, money would have come out of the universities that would have further eroded the number of university places. Again, what people are saying they want to see happening and what they have done in adopting policy positions and votes does not stack up.”
“We have been to the UK Government in the past number of weeks looking for additional resources and we have had our answer. We have had partial success in that regard, but that is the answer that we have received. If this is to happen, it will have to be funded through choices being made locally here in Northern Ireland. People need to set out exactly what they plan to do in that regard. <BR /> <BR />Again, it is worth recalling that those who tabled the motion are members of a party that held my portfolio between 1999 and 2002 — a time when public expenditure was in a much more benign environment, but the big leap forward on the Magee campus did not happen.”
“<BR /> <BR />I would be particularly interested in hearing how those who tabled the motion envisage the Executive finding the resources to facilitate the expansion of Magee, particularly in the context of the current public expenditure climate. To date, I have not seen a sign that the Assembly is willing to rise to the challenge in that regard. To say simply, as Mr Dallat did at the beginning, that the British Government have a responsibility to pay for that is not a realistic answer to that question. <BR /> <BR />The people of Derry deserve much more honesty from every party as to what they are going to do differently in order to facilitate that £70 million price tag that the expansion of Magee, as part of a sustainable higher education sector, is going to involve.”
“<BR /> <BR />I would suggest that, rather than ring-fence and protect certain areas of expenditure at present, we will need to move to address certain areas through more radical reform, including in health and education, which are the biggest areas of public expenditure. We will also need to be braver in revenue raising. Otherwise, we are simply engaging in rhetoric and building up hopes. I think that it was Mr Durkan who made an impassioned appeal for certainty around the issue, but that certainty can only come when people are prepared to be strategic and responsible on budgets. That certainty does not lie in my hands alone but with all of us, whether it is the parties in the Executive or, indeed, every party in the Assembly as a whole.”
“We are likely to see a further tightening in the size of the Northern Ireland block grant over the coming years. The only real issue at stake is the scale of that tightening, subject to which parties will be in government in the UK after the general election. <BR /> <BR />We also have the further financial pressure of funding a lower level of corporation tax and preparing for its successful implementation. Of course, the logic of that situation is that we will intensify investments in skills but the danger is that, due to other pressures and in defiance of strategic sense and logic, the funding of skills gets further crowded out. If all this is to be managed, there will be a need for responsible decision-making.”
“I am not going into the detail of what is discussed behind closed doors. Whoever is feeding the Member rumours of that suggestion needs to be extremely careful about repeating what may or may not be said behind closed doors. I think that everyone knows what I am getting at in that regard. <BR /> <BR />It is important to bear in mind that even that pressure of potentially £17 million, which is, in itself, an enormous challenge in the best of circumstances, comes at a time when there are potential further pressures down the road.”
“In a moment. <BR /> <BR />We need to find £16 million to rectify the effect of the current cuts, at least £25 million to restore the competitive position of our universities at least £23 million for the expansion of Magee itself.”
“<BR /> <BR />Moreover, the position has been further compounded by the motion in the Assembly and decision in the Executive to preserve the premia payments to the teacher-training colleges. That has increased what would otherwise have been a £14 million cut to the higher education sector to a £16 million cut. That in itself places around 300 places in jeopardy. If Members are serious about the motion before us, they are, through their actions, moving in the wrong direction. <BR /> <BR />If we are to see the expansion of Magee, we are in effect seeking a recurring expenditure of almost £70 million a year.”
“Efforts are being made to mitigate the effect of the cuts on the front-line provision of places, but it is now inevitable that we will see a reduction in the number of university places over the coming months. Someone asked what we are expecting to see in universities and, indeed, the Magee campus. At this stage, we simply do not know what the output is going to be. However, we are looking at a situation of several hundreds of places being in jeopardy right across our universities, and across all campuses. That is an entirely counterproductive move in any situation, but it is particularly so when we are supposed to be preparing for a lower level of corporation tax.”
“We would be undermining our credibility in marketing Northern Ireland as an investment location, and we would be short-changing our students by providing an inferior form of education. If we are to expand Magee, we should do it properly. <BR /> <BR />The funding situation has been compounded by further cuts to my departmental budget. As Members will know, my budget is facing an 8·4% cut in the forthcoming financial year. Although great efforts have been made to protect key economic interventions, it is impossible to protect higher education from those cuts. For the next year, I am forced to cut the grant support to our higher education institutions by £16 million.”