Stephen Farry
North Down · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“Speaking for a party that has a longer pedigree in advocating a public inquiry than both the DUP and Sinn Féin, I nonetheless welcome this announcement, despite the torturous path that we have had and, indeed, the missed opportunities.”
“The first was a reform of the petition of concern to take it back to the original intent when it was designed in 1998. It was clear at that stage that Arlene Foster banged the table and said, "No, never. We are not doing that. That is a way whereby we are going to have to fold on equal marriage: it's not happening".”
“<BR /> <BR />The main points that I make concern the substance of the order. There are probably three aspects that the Minister needs to address properly before the Assembly, and they really relate to what other options he has.”
“That raises the question of why they want to go as far as 2022, especially when I am not sure — I would welcome any clarification to the contrary on it — that there has been formal Executive approval of this.”
“<BR /> <BR />There are three major substantive issues that I do not believe have been properly aired on this: VAT; European Commission infraction proceedings; and, most important, the opportunity foregone to revisit the classification of Northern Ireland Water and the ability, through a separate water charge, to allow it to borrow commerc…”
“While my party was supportive of the Good Friday Agreement back in 1998, at that time, we expressed some reservations around the very detailed nature of the proposals and how those could, in due course, destabilise Northern Ireland and prevent us from realising our full potential. We have been very much vindicated in that analysis.”
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“I am very much open to what the Member says, and we are happy to look at how we can develop our estate in as creative a manner as we possibly can. However, without that degree of creativity, particularly in how we can generate additional capital, it is unlikely that we are going to be able to progress this in the short- or medium-term future. There are quite a lot of works on further education in the pipeline. The Member will know that a number of schemes have been approved in the southern region, and we are awaiting decisions on the Northern Regional College area.”
“The Belfast Metropolitan College is preparing a comprehensive estates strategy for all its campuses. Following significant recent investment in new facilities in Titanic Quarter and Springvale, the college is considering its needs for the remainder of its estates infrastructure. <BR /> <BR />Included in that is a strategic outline case for the redevelopment of the Castlereagh campus on Montgomery Road. That will consider, at a high level, the accommodation that is required to meet the current and future curriculum and business demands for the area. The college has advised that a strategic outline case will be submitted to my Department in the new year.”
“That does not preclude us doing more on that, and one of the areas that we are looking at is whether there is scope for a shared service delivery across the sector. I am pleased that all the colleges are very much up for looking at solutions in that regard. I need to make it clear that it is very difficult to see where the FE sector can make savings that are genuine efficiencies, as opposed to what are, very sadly, going to be cuts in provision.”
“It is worth referencing that the further education sector has been run on a very efficient basis over the past number of years. There has not been an increase in funding for further education in real terms since 2007, so in its actual related spend, it has been surviving on an ever-decreasing budget. That means that it has been pushing efficiencies over the past number of years. <BR /> <BR />The sector has also been consolidated to a great extent. We are now down to six colleges across Northern Ireland. Before that, we were well into the teens, and before that, there were well over 20 different colleges across Northern Ireland. So, there has already been a considerable consolidation in the FE sector.”
“The demographics in that are sometimes different to what we would see for those who stay on in secondary-level education.”
“My answer is similar to that which I gave to Mr Beggs a few minutes ago. We will be as strategic as we can in the approach that we take. The Member will be aware that some acknowledgement was given in the draft Budget to the role of further education and, indeed, that of my Department in a wider sense through training organisations for 16- to 19-year-olds. Bluntly, if we have a situation where disproportionate protection is given to the Department of Education for further education and training, there will be a major inequity in our support. To put it very bluntly again, we will end up with a situation where predominantly middle-class children who are availing themselves of a grammar school education will get a greater degree of protection than those who are in the further education and training sector.”
“However, I am not taking a salami-slicing approach to what the further education sector is doing. We will approach community outreach in a considered, strategic manner, with a view to what is most important for the economy and how we ensure that we continue to engage with those most marginalised from the economy.”
“I can give the Member an assurance, in the sense that we are not planning any major revisions of the FE estate outside what is envisaged in the weighted business case for redevelopment in the Northern Regional College area. However, we are not expecting any major changes in the southern part of its jurisdictional area. <BR /> <BR />As for community outreach, I have a very strong commitment that we will seek to ensure that we are providing skills, including to the most vulnerable in our society. However, at this stage, it is very difficult to give any guarantees, because we are still bottoming out with the colleges how they will approach this. Until we get an indication of a more favourable financial settlement, it is very difficult to give any assurance that any particular service area will be entirely immune from cuts.”
“Considering the scale of budget cuts facing my Department — 10·8% — there will undoubtedly be detrimental impact on further education colleges, including their provision of front-line services. Officials from my Department are working with colleges to consider different options for reducing spend, and that will require making difficult decisions over the coming weeks. The colleges have been advised that, in the event that they are faced with cuts of 10·8%, it will mean 500 fewer staff and 16,000 fewer student enrolments. I assure the Assembly that my Department will strive to mitigate the worst impact of the cuts. However, it is clear that even core front-line services will be affected.”
“My Department is a coherent, unified Department based around skills and employability. All the different divisions are pushing in the one direction. I believe that they should be transferred en bloc to the new architecture, and I believe that that view is supported by virtually all the stakeholders in wider society.”
“I hesitate, since the views that I am expressing are my personal views on the matter and those of my political party. I would not speak on behalf of individual members of staff in the Department. However, it is interesting to note that when the Employment and Learning Committee did an exercise in that regard in the spring of 2012, the views that came across strongly from employees in the Department were that they saw themselves as part of a single Department of the economy. They understood the economic relevance of what they were doing, and that is why they were motivated to fulfil the service functions that we ask of them. <BR /> <BR />To reiterate on Mr Elliott's question, I envisage virtually all the functions of my Department being part of a single Department of the economy.”
“We know that we will need more and more higher-level skills in the years to come, and our colleges and universities are the key delivery partner in that regard.”
“Our colleges' relevance to the economy has come on in leaps and bounds in the past decade. At the tip of the spear, they are offering programmes through our shared skills scheme, whereby they will provide the ready-made employees that companies require. We have been able to attract companies to Northern Ireland based on a very innovative approach that is not available in competing jurisdictions for what are often mobile international investments. <BR /> <BR />Moreover, the curriculum in our colleges and universities is heavily determined by the needs of the economy. Frankly, that is why we are investing public money in colleges and universities: to ensure that they are providing the skilled workers of the future to meet the demands of the economy.”
“I tend to concur with the Member. Just to be clear, I see virtually all my Department going into a Department of the economy alongside virtually all of DETI. There may well be other functions across Departments that could be consolidated in such a manner. It is very clear that the further education sector and universities are a key part of the economic narrative in Northern Ireland. Look, for example, to what Invest Northern Ireland is doing in reaching out to companies overseas. Universities are central to that narrative.”
“<BR /> <BR />We can certainly learn lessons from the discussions in 2012, when all stakeholders — universities, colleges, business organisations and students themselves — saw the benefit of a single Department of the economy rather than my Department being split between two Departments. <BR /> <BR />We can also look to experiences elsewhere in these islands. For example, universities are part of the Department with responsibility for business in the London setting, which gives them a certain profile. By contrast, in the Republic of Ireland, they are part of a wider Department of Education and Skills and, frankly, tend to get lost in discussions around primary and secondary education in that jurisdiction.”
“I do not agree that this is something that has been forgotten by OFMDFM. The correct decision has been taken to view it as part of a wider consideration of Departments. That process is very much alive today. Members will be aware that that item is being discussed actively in the current round of talks. There may well be a positive outcome in that regard. <BR /> <BR />We want to avoid the situation where Departments are carved up for political ends, which was the danger in 2012. Today, we have the opportunity to do this as part of a wider reform of government structures, which is more about servicing the people and businesses of Northern Ireland in as efficient and effective a way as possible.”
“While there may be a superficially attractive option to have a single Department addressing education, from nursery to higher education, the more compelling requirement is to ensure that further education and higher education are directly meeting the needs of the economy. The present interface between DEL and DE is managed and can continue to be managed under any future arrangements.”
“However, today, it is a coherent organisation based around a unified agenda of promoting and addressing the skill needs of the people of Northern Ireland and helping them to find and sustain employment. <BR /> <BR />Much of the current synergy in DEL would be lost in the event that its functions were dispersed. Indeed, there would be a very real danger that the Executive's ability to grow and transform the economy at a time of critical importance would be substantially damaged. For those reasons, I consider that virtually all the functions of the Department should remain together, either in a single Department or as part of a wider Department of the economy.”
“In July 2012, the First Minister and deputy First Minister announced that they wished to await the outcome of engagement with party leaders on the number of Departments before making any decision on the future of DEL. The matter is on the agenda of the ongoing all-party talks. <BR /> <BR />I believe that the number of Departments should be rationalised from 12 to eight from the start of the next mandate of the Assembly. However, any reallocation of functions should be based around the creation of what are essentially new Departments, rather than existing Departments subsuming new functions into existing organisational structures and corporate plans. <BR /> <BR />My Department may have been created as an amalgamation of functions from different Departments.”
“That is why pastoral care from the training providers in FE colleges and the workplace mentors are so important. We are not simply providing the technical skills for young people but giving them much wider support. With reference to what Mr Hilditch said, one of the key lessons that we learned from our international study visits was the importance of that type of pastoral care. Some of the training facilities almost gave the impression of being a type of school, with a full provision of extracurricular activities. Young people could have the advantage of availing themselves of that, which is more associated with a traditional school setting than with a traditional training-type provision. People who are entering from a care background are a key group for whom that approach would be most beneficial.”
“We are seeking to ensure that we attain better achievement and retention rates in the system. Obviously, the Member refers to what happens in the current provision and the attention that is given, which is, at times, of a high standard. We get strong feedback from young people on the programmes. Equally, we are conscious that the progression levels through our current systems are not sufficiently strong and that people are not availing themselves of the opportunities, and employers are consequently not availing themselves of the local skills base in the manner that they should. <BR /> <BR />We are making a very strong commitment on pastoral care and the mentoring of young people, because we acknowledge that young people will be entering these schemes with a range of barriers and particular needs that will have to be addressed.”
“Again, a number of case studies are set out in the interim report and consultation document. They involve areas such as employers' reports, pastoral care for young people, the design of curriculums and how employers can influence them. A lot of the report's content has been influenced by what is going on in other societies. We have not been looking to reinvent the wheel but simply to apply best practice to our local context.”
“There is a plethora of examples of best practice around the world. So far, we have engaged in study visits to the Netherlands, Denmark and Scotland, as well as having discussions with officials and others in London. As I said to Mr McCann, we can, at a very high level, draw conclusions from the investment that societies make in their commitment to vocational education and training, and the levels of unemployment, particularly youth unemployment, that pertain in those societies. The correlation is compelling, and you will see that in the report and the supporting evidence. <BR /> <BR />Beneath that, we had the opportunity to look at specific interventions that have been successful in other countries in how they structure their approach to youth training.”
“I am on record saying that I am concerned at the degree of protection that has been given to the Department of Education's budget relative to other aspects of our skills offering and at the potential for inequities in that regard. Some recognition was given to that in the draft Budget. At this stage, we are working through the implications of the Budget to ensure that we can fund the biggest strategic priorities for my Department and, consequently, our economy.”
“We should see many more of our young people progressing into the world of work and sustaining employment. That will have a whole range of social benefits, as well as less money having to be spent on unemployment benefit and other welfare supports. We should see employers with a stronger ability to access the skills that they require. They should be able to grow better and, as a consequence, our economy will develop ever further. It is right that we continue to do this, notwithstanding issues on our budget. <BR /> <BR />I already mentioned the interface with the Department of Education. We want to see a revised 14-to-19 strategy to ensure that we can join things up as best we can.”
“The present level of funding for our level-2 offering approximates to just over £50 million. That includes about £25 million for Skills for Life at level 2 in Training for Success, about £8·5 million on level-2 apprenticeships and about £19 million on mainstream further education provision at level 2. We also have the ability to engage the European social fund. It goes without saying that the pressure on our budgets are enormous, but I have committed to making this a priority. <BR /> <BR />We are not in the business of salami-slicing across the Department's work programmes. Often at times of greatest pressure, you have to seek to innovate the most. We believe that we are seeking to innovate through this approach. As a consequence, I hope that financial, economic and societal benefits will arise from our interventions.”
“<BR /> <BR />When we are referring to youth unemployment, it is worth making a comparison with what is happening in other parts of the world. We know that other European countries have much lower levels of youth unemployment than we do. That indicates a very strong correlation between those societies that invest the most in vocational education and the production of much better results in the alignment of skills with the needs of their economies. As a consequence, there are lower levels of youth unemployment.”
“One of the reasons why we are seeking to act is that our levels of progression are simply not good enough. People go through our different level-2 training offerings and, once they do, proper progression pathways are not available for them. We almost hope that they will find their way into sustained employment, but that is not always the case. If we look at our youth unemployment figures, we see that, while they are coming down, they are nonetheless a source of concern. The levels of youth unemployment for people who have gone through our training system and who have often essentially been recycled through programmes are much in excess of the overall figure for youth unemployment, as high as that is. That points to the need for a major revamp of our youth training interventions at level 2.”
“I am very happy to give the Member that assurance. Throughout the process, we have been very hands-on with the engagement with our stakeholders. That also extends to trying to derive lessons from international best practice. That will continue through the process. <BR /> <BR />In my statement, I referred to some innovative approaches to engaging young people that we will seek to take forward over the next number of weeks. The expert panel that was formed was a strong cross-representation of different aspects of the current system and those who will have future delivery roles. That was very helpful in shaping our conclusions. <BR /> <BR />The Member talked about the importance of this for young people and the need to ensure proper progression.”
“<BR /> <BR />Equally, we may have some sectoral partnerships based in areas where the main skill demands are at level 2, or, if a particular sector requires a range of skill levels, there may well be a hybrid covering apprenticeships and youth training. The sectoral partnerships will involve any specialist representative bodies in the sector, a cross-section of employers and people who have a much more hands-on role in curriculum development, higher education and further education (FE) and, for the youth training system, training providers, who will also be a key delivery partner alongside the FE colleges.”
“I thank the Member for his question. There are two particular interventions to highlight, and these will also be held in common with the apprenticeship strategy. The first is a strategic advisory forum, which, at a high level, will bring together employers and employer organisations, colleges, universities and other key stakeholders to monitor and signpost the implementation of the apprenticeship strategy and the youth training system, when we finalise that in the coming months. That will be supported by a range of sectoral partnerships. Depending on the sector that we are talking about, you may find that a sectoral partnership operates purely in apprenticeships, if a sector needs only people from level 3 or upwards.”
“That does not exist in the current Northern Ireland landscape, and, hopefully, it will make a major difference.”
“<BR /> <BR />We also have to be mindful that, often, people are not fully decided upon what is the most appropriate way forward at a young age, particularly those who leave school at 16. That is why we are putting such emphasis on the design of the programme for the technical baccalaureate-style award, which is designed very deliberately to have breadth and portability to allow young people the flexibility to progress in a whole range of pathways. <BR /> <BR />The second aspect that I will highlight is the proposal for a central service, which we have already announced in relation to the apprenticeship strategy. The central service will work for both apprenticeships and the youth training system and is designed to be a matching service for employers and young people — almost a bringing together or brokerage.”
“There are two particular interventions that we can highlight in that regard. One is the careers review itself, which, as the Member knows, was commissioned jointly with the Department of Education's review of careers, which built upon the inquiry that the Employment and Learning Committee conducted. That report, led by Brian Ambrose from Belfast City Airport, is now published. John O'Dowd and I are studying it and hope to set out the way forward over the coming weeks. Within that will be a very clear focus on ensuring that young people are given the full range of career options and on how we can best address key influencers to ensure a genuine parity of esteem between the different pathways.”
“<BR /> <BR />That is addressed through aspects of Training for Success and the Pathway to Success strategy for NEETs and programmes supported under the European social fund. We will be looking to see how we can make best use of the resources that are available. Through a combination of the further education system and the roll-out of the next phase of the European social fund, we will be looking to ensure that we resource projects in a holistic and strategic manner to ensure that we are facilitating the progression into the new programme. It is important that we capture every young person. This is intended to be open to all young people between the ages of 16 and 24. So, we have a duty to ensure we are capturing everyone.”
“The Member is quite right to highlight that issue, and I have tried to focus my comments in a balanced way between progression out of the system and progression into the system and recognise that we need to provide support, where appropriate, in that regard. <BR /> <BR />It is fair to say that we probably have many fewer people leaving school without a level-1 qualification than we give ourselves credit for at times. The issue is often about the numbers who are securing a level-2 qualification, which is regarded as being the standard for progressing in the world of work, but nearly 90% of young people achieve a level-1 qualification. The Member is quite right that there is still a gap for those who do not have that qualification.”
“We want to make sure that everyone has the opportunity to play a role in life and develop to their full potential. The Member will be aware that, already, we offer additional support for people with disabilities who are going through our training programmes. That commitment will remain and will be strengthened as we look to go forward with the new system.”
“I thank the Member for her comments and question. A piece of work is being conducted in the Executive subcommittee on the implementation of the Bamford review on mental health and learning disability. Indeed, a meeting of that group is due to take place on Thursday. We have been doing a scoping exercise to look at what is offered and to try to identify where gaps exist in provision. <BR /> <BR />The Member will also be aware that my Department is bringing forward a new disability employment strategy. That is due to be released for public consultation in January next year. There will be a very close synergy between that strategy and the proposals for a youth training system. <BR /> <BR />We recognise that people with disabilities will be going through the system. Indeed, we are openly encouraging that.”
“If we are not providing quality, we are short-changing employers, who will be depending on a good stream of young people, and also short-changing our young people to whom we have a duty of ensuring that we give the best foundation in life.”
“The Member is quite right to identify the issue of quality and of ensuring that those who provide training have the proper skills. That is why an entire section of the report, one of four, is devoted to quality. We will seek to develop that as best we can. <BR /> <BR />The other aspect of quality is the notion of how we support young people. That includes a mixture of pastoral care provided through the training providers and the mentoring that will be offered in the workplace. We fully recognise, and, indeed, concur, with the Member's comments about the importance of ensuring that quality is apparent at all levels.”
“Again, that will be a key aspect when we put in place the outcome of the current careers review.”
“We are seeking to ensure that the provision that we make is more relevant to the needs of the economy. At present, it is often shaped around the needs of training providers who will try to get employers to take young people for the type of training that they provide. We are trying to invert that process to ensure that employers, particularly through the sectoral partnerships, are driving what goes into the curriculum as well as shaping demand in the system. <BR /> <BR />Finally, we need to ensure that there is proper parity of esteem with other pathways in the system. This is not about creating a hierarchy; this is about creating choice. Alternative pathways will suit the different needs and aspirations of young people. It is important that parents and other influencers see it in that regard and support people making informed choices.”
“The Member will be aware that our new strategy for apprenticeships has now moved that model for apprenticeships up the skills ladder, starting at level 3. Nonetheless, we believe that it is important that we have the employed route available for young people at level 2. The duration will be shorter — a maximum, rather than a minimum, of two years — in the apprenticeship strategy. Hopefully, that will facilitate young people into doing an apprenticeship as the next stage of their progression. <BR /> <BR />Employers will find this of huge benefit, as, increasingly, they are telling us about the need to provide more skills that are relevant to the workplace. We have a huge demand for a much greater commitment to be made to vocational training at all levels, from level 2 upwards. This is the new level-2 offer in that regard.”
“We will wish to take a very hands-on approach to ensure that they are meeting needs and facilitating progression into the system. Much as we talk about progression from the youth training system into employment or other opportunities, this is also about ensuring that we facilitate progression into the system. <BR /> <BR />The difference between this and what is offered in an apprenticeship is that part of this system will offer an employed route. For now, we can term that a traineeship, although we are open-minded about branding and the terminology used. We want to hear the views of employers and young people in that regard. The traineeship will be similar to an apprenticeship and, in some respects, will replace our current level-2 apprenticeship NI offer.”
“This is not about schools necessarily becoming providers of vocational education for 14 upwards; it has to be about a coordinated approach using the best of the resources, facilities, teaching and lecturing opportunities that we have. I see this as an opportunity for my Department and for the education system as a whole rather than as necessarily a competition between the two. <BR /> <BR />While we do have a concern about the number of young people who are achieving their level-2 qualification, most young people who go through the school system will achieve a level 1. However, there is a challenge for those who are not yet ready to avail of the programme that we are offering today. That can be addressed through a combination of further education and programmes that may be run under the European social fund.”
“It may not meet their particular needs, interests or aspirations. In particular, they are more interested in a vocational pathway as opposed to an academic pathway, and a vocational pathway can sometimes offer a better prospect of finding and sustaining employment. It is in that context that we are seeking to provide this intervention. <BR /> <BR />That said, there will be greater scope on the back of this for us to look at a revised 14-to-19 strategy between my Department and the Department of Education. While we are offering this training to young people from the age of 16, work can take place in the school system that will help to join up with the new system that we are proposing today. Some of that delivery can be facilitated through proper area planning, the entitlement framework and proper use of the further education system.”
“I thank the Committee Chairperson for his welcome for the statement and his questions. I will take each of them in turn. First, with the interface with the education system, the Member rightly identified that approximately two out of five young people leave school without a level 2 qualification. I would not say that we are addressing the failings of the education system. We must always have a joined-up interface between the training offer provided by the state and the education system. This is provided in many countries around the world. <BR /> <BR />The Education Minister has aspirations to increase the level of attainment; indeed, that aspiration is in the Programme for Government targets. We have to be very clear that the education system does not always work for young people.”
“For employers, the new system will offer support to engage and reduce bureaucracy, and it will guarantee that the young people whom they support will be work ready and trained in skills that are relevant to their immediate and future needs. <BR /> <BR />The new system of youth training will deliver a foundation of knowledge and expertise, which will contribute to the skills required by the economy, improved social mobility and facilitate lifelong learning. <BR /> <BR />I commend the proposals to the Assembly.”
“<BR /> <BR />In addition to the consultation, we will link the proposals to the ongoing implementation of the apprenticeship strategy to identify synergies between those two key mechanisms in our wider skills system. <BR /> <BR />Our proposals for youth training will deliver for young people and employers. For young people, they will provide a foundation of knowledge and expertise that will support their lifelong learning and provide a sustainable foothold in the world of work. The proposals will guarantee that the training the young people complete is right for them and sought after by employers, and they will support those who require additional help and guidance as they transition into and through the world of work.”
“<BR /> <BR />Particular efforts are being made to gather the views of young people on our approach, including their views on the future branding and marketing of the youth training system. Based on engagement with the Commissioner for Children and Young People, we will incorporate innovative best practice into our work with young people. This process will begin with a workshop involving young people to develop an animated version of the consultation, followed by focus groups with young people, which will start in December. We will also hold roadshow events to gather further the views of employers, training providers and other interested stakeholders.”