Stephen Farry
North Down · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“Speaking for a party that has a longer pedigree in advocating a public inquiry than both the DUP and Sinn Féin, I nonetheless welcome this announcement, despite the torturous path that we have had and, indeed, the missed opportunities.”
“The first was a reform of the petition of concern to take it back to the original intent when it was designed in 1998. It was clear at that stage that Arlene Foster banged the table and said, "No, never. We are not doing that. That is a way whereby we are going to have to fold on equal marriage: it's not happening".”
“<BR /> <BR />The main points that I make concern the substance of the order. There are probably three aspects that the Minister needs to address properly before the Assembly, and they really relate to what other options he has.”
“That raises the question of why they want to go as far as 2022, especially when I am not sure — I would welcome any clarification to the contrary on it — that there has been formal Executive approval of this.”
“<BR /> <BR />There are three major substantive issues that I do not believe have been properly aired on this: VAT; European Commission infraction proceedings; and, most important, the opportunity foregone to revisit the classification of Northern Ireland Water and the ability, through a separate water charge, to allow it to borrow commerc…”
“While my party was supportive of the Good Friday Agreement back in 1998, at that time, we expressed some reservations around the very detailed nature of the proposals and how those could, in due course, destabilise Northern Ireland and prevent us from realising our full potential. We have been very much vindicated in that analysis.”
The complete record
Every one of 2,504 lines we hold for Stephen Farry, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 6 of 51.
“In her last answer, the Minister referred to the Executive's having a negotiating hand in relation to Brexit. That belies what she has just said in the Chamber and is in contrast to what the deputy First Minister actually said today outside this room. How can we make best use of our diplomats in Brussels, Washington and Beijing if we do not give them a strong, coherent position on Brexit, particularly when people internationally are very keen to help Northern Ireland in light of our experience with the peace process?”
“Given the voluntary exit scheme, combined with the reorganisation of Departments and the warnings that we are getting about difficulties with the relocation of DAERA to Ballykelly, does the Minister, given his responsibility for the Civil Service, have any concerns about business continuity into the future?”
“I thank the Minister for that answer. He will recognise that Northern Ireland now has the highest employment rate since records began in the modern era, but we still have a long way to go in tackling economic inactivity. Will the Minister confirm that he will seek to avoid a long process of setting this up, which, unfortunately, his answer seemed to imply? Will he confirm that, in the forthcoming Budget process, he will bid for resources to make the strategy real? In that regard, what consideration is being given to the moneys mentioned in the Stormont House Agreement that come from tackling error and fraud being directed to tackling economic inactivity?”
“— and find out what the best way forward is.”
“— to work out the best way of establishing trust and confidence. My party leader has written to the other party leaders to ask for a meeting; however, nobody has yet taken that initiative forward. It is important that all the parties sit down —”
“There are many, many other examples of that in the Assembly. <BR /> <BR />I also want to put on record my defence of my colleague Judith Cochrane, who came under considerable criticism last year, when she urged caution on hearing evidence from Jamie Bryson; I believe that what she said at the time and her position, as well as that of others who voiced similar concerns, has now been well vindicated. <BR /> <BR />Finally, we recently saw an attempt, somewhat belatedly, by the Government in the Republic of Ireland to reach out to opposition parties to try and formulate a consensus on the best way forward. It strikes me that we are looking at a whole range of different ways forward here, but nothing is coming together. We need to see political parties sitting down together —”
“We have already had difficulties with the Finance Committee, and there are serious question marks over its report and the attempted coaching of at least one witness that we are aware of so far. There were, already, wider issues around its ability to ensure that the full range of people appeared before it to give evidence and to ensure that it had that fully rounded process. <BR /> <BR />There is also a point about the willingness of the members of political parties who sit on Committees to challenge what is said by Ministers from their own party or, indeed, by civil servants from Departments that are led by their party. Until we have scrutiny Committees where people are prepared to move beyond the purely party political, Back Bench scrutiny is always going to be limited in that regard.”
“Those who think that it can simply be channelled into the criminal sphere and left to run its course are missing the bigger picture that goes to the heart of public accountability, value for money, good governance and how we conduct our business. This is only one example of an emerging and consolidating trend from government where there are genuine issues around problems with openness, transparency and accountability. Indeed, we will return to it with an Alliance Party motion, hopefully next week. <BR /> <BR />It is also important that we recognise that if the Assembly does wish to investigate the matter, there will be limitations to that investigation.”
“I appreciate that it has been mentioned as part of a range of options, but we would have gone some way to restoring public confidence today if there had been a clear, unambiguous acknowledgement by the Assembly of the need for a public inquiry to fully address the issues and, in doing so, respect the primacy of the format of the ongoing criminal investigations, whether by the NCA, an Garda Síochána, the US Securities and Exchange Commission or the FBI. If an inquiry is established, it could make a judgement call on whether it could proceed in looking additionally at non-criminal matters or whether it should wait until the conclusion of the criminal investigation. <BR /> <BR />The important message to get out is that, aside from the criminal investigation, there is a much wider issue that needs to be properly investigated.”
“While Members have alluded to other issues that are not, strictly speaking, recommendations in the motions, we express disappointment that there is not a specific call in any of them for a proper public inquiry to take place in Northern Ireland or in the Republic of Ireland or that there is consideration for something to happen on an all-island basis.”
“<BR /> <BR />While we need to take huge care to ensure that this debate and any other discussion in this Building or outside does not compromise any criminal investigations, it is quite legitimate that we are here today discussing this, indeed it is a debate that should have happened much sooner. If it were not for the election, there would have been a debate around the report, albeit it is a flawed report now, from the outgoing Finance Committee. <BR /> <BR />There are elements of the motion and the amendments that we can identify with.”
“Following on from the previous Member, it is worthwhile picking up on the point and, indeed, the frustration that was being felt on other Benches. While this is a criminal matter and primacy needs to be given to criminal investigations, not all aspects of public disquiet in relation to the NAMA affair pertain to purely criminal matters. There are issues regarding good governance, how decision-making recommendations were formulated and how public appointments were taken forward that need to be thoroughly investigated, not least to ensure that proper lessons are learnt for the future.”
“Does the Member agree that there were ordinary people on both sides of the argument in the UK as a whole and in Northern Ireland? When Lord Morrow refers to 85% of unionists having voted "Leave", he has no basis for making that claim. That is an entirely fabricated statistic, just like all the other ones from the "Leave" campaign.”
“If it is done down the Irish Sea, then we are looking at one massive anomaly to handle, and that is before we even come to the implications for the Good Friday Agreement and the balance of relationships that were carefully set out in that document and that very much depend upon the European Union facilitating the freedom of movement, the immigration policy and trading policy. There is a danger that that now becomes unpicked, with massive consequences for our political future.”
“Whenever we see the figures for the UK as a whole moving in the wrong direction, Northern Ireland is structurally quite a number of points of a percent behind in many respects, so there is a danger there. <BR /> <BR />Thirdly, we have the complications around the border, and unless we have the softest of soft Brexits, we will see a situation where there is a different regime for immigration and trading between the Republic of Ireland, as part of the European Union, and the UK. That has to be policed in some manner. So we could see policing done on a line across the island or down the Irish Sea.”
“First, we share a land border on the island of Ireland that brings some particular complexities, and, secondly, people who are born in Northern Ireland have the right to be Irish citizens and, by default, European Union citizens. That is different from the context elsewhere in the UK, so it brings its own particular situation, as well. <BR /> <BR />On the effects of Brexit, there are probably four in particular that I want to highlight. First, we have the financial impact from the loss of revenue, and I appreciate that the UK as a whole may have been a net contributor, but Northern Ireland was a net beneficiary. Secondly, even if we take the UK perspective, the UK had much more to gain from its ability to trade and its location for inward investment. Today, we have seen some very difficult economic speculation.”
“That may well be something that is much more consistent with the fact that we are in a very particular place and a particular political situation; that we are still very much a contested state; that the people of Northern Ireland voted "Remain"; and, indeed, that we have the right to determine our own future, as reflected in the Good Friday Agreement itself. <BR /> <BR />It is worth reflecting that, even if we do not manage to have a coherent position from our Executive in due course that it can seek to negotiate some type of special status, a special status, or rather an anomaly, will emerge by default. It is important that we bear that in mind. There cannot be a clean Brexit for the UK as a whole and certainly not for Northern Ireland.”
“Even with that, they do not fully grasp the full spectrum of the implications for Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />The final point on the spectrum is whether we can work out some type of special arrangement or special status for Northern Ireland, whether that is preferential access to the European Union or as a region within the European Union. We could see a situation where, in line with the principle of consent, Northern Ireland remains a part of the UK, where we have a strong relationship with our neighbours in the Republic of Ireland but also a strong relationship with Brussels.”
“I appreciate that it is somewhat embarrassing for the DUP, having campaigned to leave, to now accept many of the points made by the "Remain" side during the referendum.”
“First, there are the ongoing legal challenges, which are about ensuring a proper constitutional process rather than necessarily trying to stop Brexit itself. Those will work their way through the courts in due course, no doubt. <BR /> <BR />The second aspect of the responses is how Northern Ireland can influence the UK's negotiating position and seek to mitigate the effects of Brexit, and that is where this document lies in that particular spectrum. To date, the response from the Executive has been poor. We have seen the much more coherent and united response from Scotland. In contrast, we have had a letter from our First Minister and deputy First Minister, which very much reflects the lowest common denominator of agreement, and even in that letter a number of important issues were neglected.”
“The debate is probably of most use if we see it as a take-note debate regarding the response, or lack of response, from the Executive to Brexit rather than an effort to endorse the view of one political party. There may well be some useful points in the document which do indeed reflect things that were said by my party and others and parts of the business community and civil society. I take issue with the notion of reconciling the words "A Vision for Northern Ireland" and the words "Outside the European Union". To my mind Northern Ireland being outside the European Union is a negative. The issue is how deep and far-reaching the implications and consequences are going to be and how we can actually move to address all of them. <BR /> <BR />The document is framed at one part of a spectrum of different responses that we can envisage.”
“I also thank the Minister for his statement. He referred to the slightly better position for universities in the Philip Hammond letter from the summer. Will he join me in also recognising that there is a much wider and deeper problem with support for research funding, in that Horizon 2020 is a competitive process, with consortia being put together across many countries, and, in the absence of certainty on the right of EU nationals to remain, the mobility of researchers across Europe and funding beyond 2020, our universities are in a very precarious situation with research funding, and guarantees from the Treasury do not go anywhere near far enough?”
“I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. It is an important point that builds on the comments of Jonathan Bell. I pay tribute to the work that he has done, particularly in the Far East. All three of us have done work in different capacities over the past five years to work for investment into Northern Ireland. Will the Minister comment on his experience? In all his work, has he ever come across a single business that advocated that Northern Ireland would be better off outside the European Union?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I welcome his repudiation of fantasy budgets. On that basis, can he tell us when we are getting our first share of the £300 million per week that will be returned to us to invest in our hospitals?”
“He has our best wishes for a difficult and challenging job.”
“European countries with national policies that do not follow those models have high youth unemployment. The European Commission is keen to promote vocational training on the Germanic model and show the countries in Europe that do not have good figures that there is a different way. It is important to put that on record. <BR /> <BR />We have concerns with this Budget as we find it. It is not sufficiently sustainable or strategic. In its current format we have opposed it through the Executive and the Assembly, but we recognise that it will be passed. The world is changing. Looking ahead to the wider context, as is the custom at Final Stage, we are in an extremely difficult situation, and it is important that we are fully alert to the dangers and work closely with the Finance Minister.”
“That, in turn, is where a lot of investment will come from over the coming years. They will look to the European Union to make those investments, not a United Kingdom on the fringes of the European Union. <BR /> <BR />We also heard the nonsense that there would be lower youth unemployment outside the European Union. The reason that we have different approaches to youth unemployment across the European Union is that different policies on training are applied at the national level. Countries that invest in highly vocational systems of training, including high-level apprenticeships, have lower youth unemployment figures because there is a much stronger match between supply and demand in the economy and because employability skills are taught at an early age. Hence the Germanic countries and Scandinavia have lower rates of unemployment.”
“So there is no guarantee that, free from the European Union, that is going to happen. <BR /> <BR />We had Mr Bell talking about the shrinkage of the EU's share of the global economy. Albeit that growth has been slower in the EU than in many other parts of the world, that reflects the fact that we have modern economies in the European Union, where growth has occurred over many decades before. The reason we are seeing an imbalance in the global economy is the very welcome rise in development in many other parts of the world, particularly the Far East, and that is good news.”
“We will never see the effect of those that we have missed out on. <BR /> <BR />It does trouble me, and we have heard this from the Chair of the Finance Committee already, about this wonderful nirvana that we are now entering into, free from the shackles of the European Union. I wonder why we still have countries queueing up to join the European Union, if it is such a straitjacket on your ability to invest resources. Of course, we can do more without state aid rules, but that presupposes that we have a Government that want to actually invest in supporting our industry. You just have to go back to the 1980s, when we were part of the European Union and state aid rules were a bit more lax, and we did not have a Government that wanted to support industry in different ways.”
“That may well be the case, but I want to stress that I agree that there may well be a statement this year, but I suspect that the 2016-17 Budget may be spared, although any statements made in the autumn will have application from the 2017-18 financial year onwards. It is in that context where things could begin to unravel to an extent. No matter what way you look at it in terms of precisely when things are going to happen, we are in perilous times. Even if we do not see an economic collapse overnight, that does not mean we are out of the difficult, choppy waters. These things are going to happen over a period of time. Companies will take time to make decisions over what is going to happen. Investment decisions will slowly unravel. We will never actually see the investment decisions that could have been taken that never happened.”
“<BR /> <BR />If I go back to the comments I made at the start about structural difficulties within our own Budget that have not been properly addressed to date, we are going to get an ever tighter situation, which puts an ever greater premium on trying to address those types of issues. In closing, Mr Deputy Speaker —”
“There will be less tax revenue coming in. It is in that context that the UK Budget as currently set begins to unravel. That is the context in which we will potentially see our own Budgets being unpicked here in Northern Ireland. There is a reasonable chance that we will be spared in the current financial year, but in the next comprehensive spending review the chances are we are going to see even a smaller Budget than has been allocated to us in terms of future planning. That is going to cause us difficulties in terms of already difficult decisions to be taken.”
“<BR /> <BR />Another example is the potential use of the European anti-globalisation fund, which Members have expressed interest in using whenever jobs have been relocated out of Northern Ireland. That is a fund available within the European Union — another benefit — but our UK Government have set their face against the use of that fund in its entirety, in contrast with our neighbours in the Republic of Ireland. So there are a whole host of things there that we risk losing in terms of cash. <BR /> <BR />The most fundamental point that we have to bear in mind is the context of a shrinking UK economy if, as now seems inevitable, we are going to see a UK recession. Whether it is a technical recession or a more sustained recession, it is a recession nonetheless, and something that will affect people. We will see the UK economy shrinking.”
“I very much concur with the Member, and I am sure he will also reflect on this from his period in office. When Northern Ireland has been working in Brussels, we have often had to rely upon our own resources, our own administration and support from our own Northern Ireland bureau in Brussels to get access to the European Commission. Frankly, at times we have had stronger allies in the Irish Government when we have needed extra leverage to get points over the line. The UK representation in Brussels has been next to useless in supporting the interests of Northern Ireland. They pay lip service to it but, frankly, it is a complication they do not often want. They have their own aspirations in that regard.”
“They are far more important on a proportionate basis in Northern Ireland than they are in the rest of the UK, so there is no guarantee that a future UK Government are going to place the same focus on that type of support. Also, I do not imagine that the UK Government are going to worry to the same extent about support for something like the European social fund when they, particularly the current Conservative Government, do not see the value of that focus in training and supporting marginalised communities.”
“<BR /> <BR />In the context of our being out of the European Union, there is no guarantee that we will achieve the same amount of money coming from London that we currently have coming from Brussels. It is OK for people to say, "It is great that the UK Government will reclaim the net effect of the money that is paid in and will be very generous in their largesse to the regions", but there is no guarantee whatsoever that that will be the case. <BR /> <BR />We have to bear in mind that the UK Government do not follow the same approach to us under devolution in terms of what our priorities are. For example, we place a much heavier emphasis on support for agriculture and agrifood. Those are two important elements of our economy.”
“They still have the discretion to insist that the money is recouped or not, and that will be a live issue. <BR /> <BR />On the wider financial context that arises from the decision, we need to be mindful that there was a lot of debate during the campaign about who got what money and the money that comes in and the money that comes out. Even if you work on the assumption that Northern Ireland maybe gets just slightly more from the European Union than local taxpayers pay in and that, therefore, it is not really something worth quibbling about, you also have to bear in mind that that is in the context of much a greater economic argument about the economic benefits that come. It is about not just the flow of money in cash terms but access to markets, the economic boost that comes and the finance that is generated from that.”
“The contrary argument to all that is that, if we do not have access to the single market, we are taking two steps or three steps back in our competitive position in the world, so perhaps a lower rate of corporation tax is now more essential than ever to compensate for what is the foolish decision that has been taken over the past number of days about our participation in the European Union. That can happen only through a fresh look at the model on all this, and it is important that we keep an open mind on that. At the same time, we cannot plough on regardless as though nothing has happened. I am sure the Minister will be acutely aware, as Claire Hanna mentioned, that, potentially, the terms of the Azores ruling do not apply, in the sense that the UK Government have to ensure that the money is recouped from us.”
“In the context of a declining Budget in particular, is it something we can afford if it is not going to be effective?”
“Today, I think we need to take a step back and have a more fundamental reassessment of the model. Corporation tax was envisaged in the context of our continuing to be part of the European Union and to participate in the single market. As anyone who has worked in investment will know, the single biggest issue for businesses looking to Northern Ireland is access to markets, and that means access to the European Union. That is closely followed by political stability. We do not have either of those at this stage. The third issue is skills, and we have a good foundation but have not scaled up. There is a question mark over that as well. In the context of our not having guaranteed access to the single market, we may need to reassess the exact approach we take.”
“There are fundamental financial challenges ahead, and we are going to have to work as Northern Ireland to mitigate those as best we can and to see if we can put in place special arrangements and circumstances that will allow us to, potentially, continue to benefit from the European Union in a way that is consistent with the views of the electorate in Northern Ireland, if not necessarily the electorate of the UK as a whole. <BR /> <BR />The continuation of corporation tax may be one of those issues, but I think it is inevitable that we will have to pause and reflect on the way forward with regard to corporation tax. This time last week, we were all set to go with a rate, potentially by 2018, subject to some minor negotiations with Treasury. However, that could not and should not happen without further investment in skills.”
“The figure of £55 million has been cited by the vice chancellors. Let me stress that that is to reflect the steady state situation in terms of ensuring that we have parity of funding with other parts of these islands. It does not reflect the quite right hopes that many have for the expansion of our higher education sector, particularly in the north-west. <BR /> <BR />I think that there is the potential for fundamental changes to occur in our financial landscape. Like others, I wish the Finance Minister well on what will be a very difficult road ahead. We would be deluding ourselves if we simply pretended that it is business as usual. It is not.”
“We have the policies and practices in place that would allow us to make the best use of resources, but we have not scaled up sufficiently, particularly in what was the context — it may still be the context — of a lower rate of corporation tax. Those investments, I believe, are absolute inescapable realities. They are not some sort of optional extra that we would do if we had the resources. <BR /> <BR />While I welcome the money that was confirmed by the Finance Minister for skills in the June monitoring round a few weeks ago, it is worth stressing again that that money is already factored in, rightly or wrongly, to budgets for the current year, based upon the promissory notes from the previous Finance Minister. We still have major structural deficits, particularly in higher education.”
“I concur with comments that have been made; it is not simply about allocating up front a set amount of money to go into the pot to keep the health service going or to try to catch up with healthcare inflation irrespective of the implications for all other Departments in the process. This has to be about deciding what reform is required, and, if we need more money to support that process of reform, by all means make that happen, almost on an invest-to-save basis. <BR /> <BR />I also think that we were not planning ahead sufficiently for changes in the economy. We have not been investing sufficiently in skills.”
“At the same time, there were a lot of big, missed opportunities, including a reorientation of our public services, particularly in health and education on a more long-term basis, and taking into account the opportunities to move ahead with integration in what is still, sadly, a divided society. <BR /> <BR />Moving forward, we find ourselves with a Budget that still has those inbuilt structural flaws. We have not yet tackled the cost of a divided society. We are still not tackling effectively issues around waste and inefficiency in a range of areas. Some of those may well be related to division; some of them are not. The reform of our health service is a key example of the latter category.”
“Rather, we were in a series of crisis modes to try to arrest decline — some of them imposed by the UK Government, and some of them self-inflicted wounds, but, still, there was very little planning for the future. It was basically about making do, day by day or month by month, at times. <BR /> <BR />Opportunities to reform our public services and put ourselves in a stronger position to support our economy have suffered. That is not to say that good work was not conducted across a range of Departments and by the Executive as a whole on a range of issues, including our performance in job support, job creation, investment in skills to an extent — we could have done more, obviously, with more resources — and some changes in health and education.”
“I will start by talking about the Budget (No. 2) Bill in the context in which the resolution to approve was originally tabled, accepting, by implication, that the world has changed significantly since. My party had considerable scepticism about the Bill in its original format and, indeed, context and to what extent it provided for a sustainable and strategic Budget <BR /> <BR />When Mr Smith made the point about the Executive not making hay while the sun was shining, he was challenged by Mr O'Dowd, who said that the sun was never shining. I concur with Mr O'Dowd, particularly in the context in which we now find ourselves. I do not recognise a situation in which the Executive were making strategic plans for the future.”
“Does the First Minister recognise that a number of Departments that dealt with deprivation and skills had their budget cut more severely in order to create the social investment fund and that they are better placed to spend money efficiently, effectively and with stronger governance than the situation that prevails with the social investment fund at present?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. The danger of quoting statistics. Will he also, if he has the list of youth unemployment figures, quote the figures from the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Germany, Austria and also, just outside the EU but part of the single market, Switzerland?”
“— control of and provide us with answers.”