Trevor Lunn
Lagan Valley · Independent · Northern Ireland
“I know what I am going to do: I am not quite sure what he is going to do. <BR /> <BR />In discussion at the Committee, we had submissions from the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS) and the Catholic Schools' Trustee Service.”
“They are relaxed about this. I know that they have some concerns about the Catholic ethos of their schools, but I cannot believe that the admission of non-Catholic teachers into Catholic schools will change the ethos of those schools at all. There is more of an obligation on teachers coming in to accept that ethos and run with it.”
“All that I can say to that is that the women, mostly, and couples who go to an abortion clinic, advisory service, hospital or private hospital are also entitled to freedom of movement and freedom of action. They are entitled to that under the law that was brought in by the British Government.”
“. Not yet, anyway. We have had this Bill from Chris, two Bills from the Green Party, and I forget the others. It has been a good day and, as others have said — yes, Pat Catney, of course, my constituency colleague, as well — it indicates what the Assembly is capable of.”
“The other day, we talked about the Brook advisory clinic and all the shenanigans around it. Most people here are too young to remember that, but it was effectively the same issue. <BR /> <BR />We are where we are. I hope that the Bill will pass; I am sure that it will now, judging by the tenor of the House. It will be another step.”
“<BR /> <BR />Back in 2015, I decided to visit the Marie Stopes clinic. I wanted to find out exactly what it was about. That year, the police had been called to the front of the clinic 200 times.”
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“It is purely symbolic; it is in the wish list of things that we might ask Westminster to rule on. I do not think that, in the present circumstances, it will pass tonight. At the minute, it is entirely up to the Assembly who gets the Justice Ministry, and I fancy that it will stay that way. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 27 relates to the function of Committees to scrutinise Ministers, propose legislation and so on. I have no problem with that whatsoever. You can word it whatever way you want, but Committees will continue to scrutinise, criticise, support and propose legislation, as they always have. <BR /> <BR />I think that is about it, Mr Speaker. We instinctively support Mr McCallister's Amendment No LT1 as the long title to go for. We will see what way the votes go, Mr Speaker, but that is all that I have to say.”
“That might give us some clout in the matter. Amendment No 24 proposes that political parties be required to establish a Programme for Government no later than two weeks after an Assembly election. That was discussed at Consideration Stage. It could be two, three or four weeks. I think that it started off at four weeks, and now it is two, or else the other way round. Two weeks is probably sufficient. <BR /> <BR />I do not know whether Mr Attwood will move amendment No 25. He is indicating that he will not, so I will not berate him about it. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 26 proposes that all Ministers be nominated under the d'Hondt system. Let me put it this way: frankly, I doubt that Sinn Féin or the DUP will wear that one, so it is probably not going to have legs.”
“— it is a pity that we have designations, but there we are —”
“Amendment No 23 relates to the election of the First Minister and deputy First Minister. We agree with the SDLP and the Ulster Unionists on that. Amendment No 23 proposes that the Assembly shall elect the First Minister and deputy First Minister or joint First Ministers:”
“— Royal Assent. I imagine that that is the norm. I have never studied the subject but I thought that a Bill would come into effect on the day after Royal Assent. However, I am still learning here. <BR /> <BR />I move now to the schedules, or what I might call the wish list. There is not much in the schedules that I disagree with. On the issue of reserved rather than excepted matters, I must confess that I had to look up what that meant. I understand now that, if a matter is reserved, and if Westminster agrees, it may be passed to the Assembly to deal with, whereas if it is an excepted matter, Westminster has to deal with it. If we are maturing as an Assembly, surely we can manage those matters ourselves. <BR /> <BR />I am absolutely on board with the bit on the ministerial code.”
“What a good idea, Mr Speaker; let us go for it. That would be a step forward. Amendment No 19 proposes to:”
“As for amendment No 13, let us see where we go with amendment No 11. I do not think that we need to dwell on amendment Nos 14, 15, 16 and 17 because they are consequential. Amendment No 18 proposes:”
“I am not satisfied that recourse to the courts of the land is the way to settle disputes between Ministers in the same Executive or Government. Perhaps we need amendment No 12, and we will certainly vote for it.”
“Perhaps more, as somebody has whispered to me. The amendment has value. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 11 inserts a new clause for the Executive's transfer of responsibilities motion. Maybe I misunderstood Mr Attwood, but it is mutually exclusive with amendment No 13, so it is interesting that the SDLP will support amendment No 11. It would have gone to the vote anyway. If amendment No 11 does not pass, we will support amendment No 13, because they are not vastly different. By the sounds of it, amendment No 11 will be the one to pass. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 12 is on breaches of the ministerial code. I will not repeat what others have said about breaches of the ministerial code, but it is certainly something that needs tidied up.”
“Somebody mentioned that, in Scotland, a Bill officer is designated to deal with a private Member's Bill. Some of the private Members' Bills that have been proposed here have been at least as valuable as some of the government Bills.”
“I remember the Ad Hoc Committee talking about that before the Bill was passed. I have said it many times, and I will say it again: in Westminster, they have a Standing Committee that looks at these issues across the board. Maybe we will get to that some day, but this would be a good start on a very important subject. <BR /> <BR />I am surprised that the DUP has indicated that it might vote against amendment No 10, because, frankly, I cannot imagine an argument against something that would provide support for the development of private Members' Bills at least once every three years. We have seen the difficulties that Members have had in trying to force private Members' Bills through the House. Those difficulties are not entirely due to the House not agreeing with them; it is a big job.”
“We are not going to object to that part of clause 5; it is not one of the most important features of what is left of the Bill. <BR /> <BR />We agree with amendment No 8 totally. Inserting "oral questions and statements" is a useful addition to the good workings of the Assembly. <BR /> <BR />I listened carefully to what Mr Attwood said about amendment No 9. He ranged far and wide on the reasons why we needed a Committee like the one proposed in the amendment, and he is clearly very sore about having to rely on London for some decisions. He talked about the scale of change and the breadth and effect of welfare reform, and I tend to agree with him about the new clause; it would be a good addition to our structure. I cannot help thinking that it would mostly discuss human rights and equality.”
“<BR /> <BR />Amendment No 7 in the name of Mr Kennedy and Mr Swann leaves out the paragraph that refers to the need for a deputy leader of the main opposition party. I would have thought that the main opposition party would have a deputy leader to start with, unless it happened to be NI21.”
“We will have fewer MLAs and fewer Departments, and, if things go according to plan, either through this Bill or through 'A Fresh Start', we will eventually have some sort of opposition, which cannot be a bad thing. <BR /> <BR />I will go through the amendments, but I will not spend very much time on them. We agree with amendment No 4. The figure of 8% is a good compromise between what was originally proposed and what was threatened, and it is a useful addition to clause 2 as another option. It follows from amendment No 5 that there will be time for the qualifying parties to get their act together. <BR /> <BR />I would have had plenty to say about amendment No 6, except that Mr Attwood has said that he will not move it. That is a relief, because I certainly could not have voted for it.”
“I join others in congratulating John McCallister on his perseverance, fortitude and patience. He has managed to get the Bill through to this stage. Bits have fallen off it at every stage, but it is still a worthwhile Bill. There is useful stuff in it for us to pass tonight, so I hope that we will pass most of it. <BR /> <BR />So far, Sinn Féin has been very reticent about what it is going to do about the Bill. Mr Sheehan spoke as Deputy Chair of the Committee and reiterated some of the Committee decisions. I think that, at the last stage, Sinn Féin voted against everything, so, unless another Sinn Féin Member speaks, we will have to wait and see what way that party will vote. <BR /> <BR />Mr Kennedy made the point about the gradual transformation of this place. I agree with him that it is slow, but at least it is sure.”
“I will reserve judgement, but, frankly, I do not know what the Minister can say today that would make us vote in support of his proposition.”
“I thank Mr McGlone for that. If that means sticking to the date of 31 March instead of changing to 29 February, it does not sound to me as though it is sufficient. Companies plan and commit forward. It sounds like a very short timescale. My concern is that companies, on the back of this, will do what they can to mitigate their loss, but their loss could still be considerable if they have a signed contract. I really want to hear from the Minister, when he responds, what his plans are to let people down gently — let me put it that way. You cannot just close this down and walk away. You cannot just say, "It is too bad. It was a good scheme, but it was too good for its own good". We cannot operate like that.”
“Frankly, however, if he wants support from us in the longer term — he will not get it today — he would have to assure my party colleagues and me that some sort of transitional arrangement or compensation scheme will be set up. We have to ensure that nobody — companies supplying, companies performing the contracts, householders, businesses or anybody else who has committed money to the scheme — is left out of pocket by government action or inaction.”
“Yes, I completely agree. I think that we have all received something from Action Renewables today that indicates an immediate potential loss of about 140 jobs. You might think that that was bearable in the overall scheme of things, but the knock-on effect across all the service and support industries is about 2,000 jobs. All this because the Department did not do its work in anticipating properly. It set up a scheme that, by the sound of it, was too successful for its own good. I wonder where we go from here. <BR /> <BR />The Minister has given us a dire warning that, if we do not support the regulation today, the scheme will run on out of control, with catastrophic effects on forward planning, on the budget and on the Executive's whole expenditure plans. I take that on board.”
“None of that work will happen, and the company anticipates having to go to Scotland and elsewhere to look for work where it is still available. <BR /> <BR />Another point that I do not think has been mentioned is the fact that DETI — the Department involved — has given considerable support to companies such as Dimplex, Warmflow and Kingspan that are heavily involved in supplying equipment with support from Invest NI. And so it goes on. It has been — I think that if I said the word that is on my mind, I would probably get slung out, Mr Speaker. It is, as the Member said, an unmitigated mess. That will do; that is as far as I can go.”
“<BR /> <BR />If I read what the Minister said correctly, there are enough applications already in the pipeline to deal with the budget or whatever money has been set aside as manageable for the next five years. If no more comes in, we are still committed to spending all this money for five years. As other Members have said, companies have ordered equipment in. I am getting the same emails as everybody else here. Will householders who have perhaps part-paid for a contract be compensated? Will companies that have spent money obtaining the necessary microgeneration certification scheme (MCS) approval to do this work be compensated? Although not on the £1 million scale that Mr McGlone talked about, a small company in Lisburn, in my constituency, has eight employees and an order book of £185,000 that they expect to disappear.”
“It is a pity, because it is actually a good news/bad news story. It is good news because it is an excellent scheme. A lot of people have already benefited from it, and a few more may do so before the thing closes. However, it is bad news because of all the concerns that people have about employment prospects in the industry for a start. I must confess, although I may be naive, but I cannot think of a scheme in my experience where you make an application after the work has been completed. Am I reading this right? You do not actually have to notify that you are going to commit the Department to spending to £10,000, £20,000 or £30,000-worth of expenditure in advance? You just throw in the bills after completion. It is hard to believe, frankly.”
“I do not have a place on the Committee for Enterprise, Trade and Investment, so I have not been privy to all the discussions and the limited information that it has been given. However, I listened with interest to Mr McGlone, who has given me a pretty fair outline of what has happened over the last year or year and a half, and it does not make for pretty listening. Somebody here has been asleep at the wheel. I do not know who to blame, but there appears to have been a complete lack of any forward planning or anticipation of what was going on here.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. Would he then agree with me that this initiative might give impetus to the obvious desire to do away with gap junctions on our existing dual carriageways? I notice that the new dual carriageways are being constructed without gap junctions.”
“I thank the junior Minister for her answer. Will she perhaps give us a bit more detail about the timescale for all that, particularly in view of the intervention of the election and the summer recess? It could be Christmas before we know it.”
“This amendment is important. It is important to Northern Ireland. It is important to women in Northern Ireland, and to men, and it is important for the self-respect of this little country. Sooner or later, we will have to do something about it. I implore Members, as others have done, to think about voting with both your conscience and your own opinion, not particularly that of your party. I hear that there is no Whip. If that is the case, you can vote according to your own thoughts, so do. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am finished.”
“In the period before we were able to organise that termination, I would like to think that either the good Lord or Mother Nature intervened, because the baby came away of its own accord. I do not like talking about this, because I get emotional, but, believe me, the pain of that decision lives with us to this day. <BR /> <BR />I have had long discussions at times with Mr Ó hOisín, who made a different decision — he does not mind me talking about this — which was to allow the pregnancy to go to full term even though the prognosis was terrible. Both those decisions are extremely difficult to make. I do not mention this so as to get sympathy but rather to point out that, as a man, it gives you an insight that you would not otherwise have. <BR /> <BR />I am going to have to stop now, Mr Speaker, because you can see what is happening to me.”
“The reason why we did not have our third child — and I have two lovely daughters — was because there were serious problems during the pregnancy. We were advised that the baby probably would not go full term, and it did not. The second time, a year later, things seemed to be OK, and then we suddenly hit the same problems. <BR /> <BR />Bear in mind how long ago this was. The doctors advised us that the baby was not likely to survive. In those days, you did not have the benefit of an amendment like ours, and you did not have the level of pastoral care, advice and support that you have now. We were advised that we would have to make a decision about that pregnancy. Our decision was to obtain a termination.”
“This is a serious issue and it really is time that we did something about it. <BR /> <BR />The other thing that I would say — and I think that somebody else mentioned it — is that it is not purely a decision for women; it is a decision for couples. It is pretty basic stuff, is it not? There is no baby without a man. Most couples, and most men, take a responsible attitude and would want to be involved in these decisions. It is important that we state that. <BR /> <BR />I will say the following with some trepidation. Some of us have had some experience of it. About 30 years ago, we should have had our third child. Mrs Kelly is not listening to me; it does not matter. About 29 years ago, we should have had our fourth child.”
“Mr Farage made those remarks in the Crown Bar with a pint in his hand when he was over here. There may be a slight doubt about whether he was speaking on his own behalf or that of UKIP, but, frankly, it would be the first time that I heard Farage saying anything that was not on behalf of UKIP. He runs the party. It is a one-man band and is becoming smaller. <BR /> <BR />I will not go on about it all night. It is a question of compassion and sympathy. As I said, I have spoken to women on both sides of the argument. <BR /> <BR />I consider the procedure that we enforce on our women at the moment as a stain on our national character. When you go to England, as I do occasionally, it comes up, and people over there just cannot understand what is going on over here. That is not purely on terminations, but in a whole lot of ways.”
“Mr McNarry and others said that the amendment is part of the slippery slope to acceptance of the 1967 Act. That is complete nonsense. Where do you get that from? You can read into it what you want to, but you have to show me the connection between a simple, narrowly defined amendment and how that could possibly lead to the 1967 Act, which I do not think any Member would want to see invoked in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />Mr McNarry seems to think that the amendment is a short track to abortion on demand. I would point out to him that his boss, Mr Farage, on behalf of UKIP, supports abortion. UKIP policy is to support abortion.”
“They did not have the money to do it, and they did not have any backup to do it. They did not travel with anybody else. And so it goes on. <BR /> <BR />Mr McNarry was interesting when he spoke. You will be glad to know, Mr Speaker, that I will not review what everybody said. Mr McNarry said that we cannot do this and asked what had altered. What has altered, in the timescale that he is talking about, is that the world has moved on. We are far more able to deal with these situations now. We do not ignore them — and we should not ignore them — in the way that we did 50 years ago, when women who had children out of wedlock were locked away in laundries. We have moved on from that. The world moves on.”
“There was pain, but she was delighted because she had the opportunity to hold the baby, take a photograph, give it a name and arrange a burial. With others, the baby only lasted a few minutes or a few hours — in one case, I think that it was 26 days — but they made their decision. Nothing in our amendment is prompting those ladies to make a different decision. <BR /> <BR />I have also had the experience of speaking to women who just could not face going down that road. I have equal sympathy and equal admiration for them. Either decision is very difficult. A couple came in to see me two years ago. They were literally on their way to the Liverpool boat, because that was the route that they had to take. Their baby was suffering from anencephaly and there was no hope. That is what they had to do.”
“<BR /> <BR />I do not want to repeat everything that others have said, but, on the definition of fatal foetal abnormality, people say that it is not a defined condition. That is absolutely correct; it is not a condition. It is an umbrella term to cover a lot of conditions that are very clearly defined, and those are the conditions that affect the women and produce these situations. <BR /> <BR />I have talked to women who have different views on this. I talked at length in the Senate Chamber one day with a group of women. They were the group who had decided to carry their babies to full term even though the diagnosis was almost hopeless. There was a lady who was delivered of a dead baby but was still delighted.”
“<BR /> <BR />I do not believe that what I am hearing tonight, certainly from two parties, if it came to it, I would be hearing from all the individual members of those parties. There is such a thing as body language, and, given what has been said outside the House, it is plain to see that not everybody in the DUP agrees with the line that is being taken over there. Frankly, I think that it is the same with the SDLP. I stand to be corrected, but we have had discussions with individual Members who have given different indications. We have been told that the SDLP might support FFA but that it would not support wholesale abortion. That is no different to my position. And so it goes on. The other parties have taken different views. At least the Ulster Unionists got a free vote, and I admire them for that.”
“The amendment also makes it clear that the mother must have all the available help, be it medical, physical, psychological or psychiatric. Everything should be there, including postnatal, prenatal and palliative care. That would be a step forward, certainly compared to what the poor mothers who have to travel across the water ever get when they do that. That really is the crux of this, Members. There are two decisions: whether you agree that the woman has a right to choose, and whether you agree that she has the right to have the medical treatment that she deserves and needs close to the place of her residence, and not this awful traffic across the water by easyJet or Stena Line. It is absolutely disgraceful. It has been going on for years, and it has to stop.”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. Everybody else got quiet to speak. <BR /> <BR />They are making the best judgement that they can, as they do every single day. They make judgements like that 20 times a day. They are not forcing anybody towards one decision or another. They are giving, in the terms of the amendment:”
“I know, but it is not an exact science. Anyway, they are only —”
“They do not always get it right about heart attacks.”
“Well, they are different clinicians from the ones I have been talking to. They make an honest judgement. All medical judgements are made with honesty and integrity, but they do not always get it right.”
“I thank Mr Maginness. I will come to Mr Allister in just a moment. I would be more impressed by that intervention if the senior clinicians had said that they could not predict in every case.”
“I say that, with respect to what could happen to a foetus with a disability. The notion has been put about tonight that the amendment could somehow lead to the destruction of children who would be capable of a healthy life. Do you trust doctors or not? How many people asked that question tonight? Doctors would be charged, in the terms of the amendment, to make a diagnosis that there is no chance of healthy life. Suddenly, however, we have talk about eugenics.”
“Again, I am getting well used to people making my point for me. It is grand. <BR /> <BR />I will move on to Mr Allister's point. I do not generally lock horns with barristers; they are far too clever for me. I always listen with respect and interest when Mr Maginness, Mr Allister or the First Minister, as a solicitor, speaks. I have to take notice. However, I can remember an occasion, when we were discussing the Education and Skills Authority (ESA) Bill a couple of years ago, when a very learned barrister told me that that Bill contained a clause that meant that the Irish language would have to be taught in every grammar school in Northern Ireland. He could not point it out to me, but he said that it was there. That tempered my respect, slightly; but I respect the two gentlemen, one of whom is before me and the other behind.”
“I hope that it is not my party. <BR /> <BR />If we trawl through the records, we would find that every party, at one time or another, has been guilty of doing exactly the same thing.”
“— I wish that people behind me would shut up.”
“I thank Mrs Kelly for her intervention. The back-door reference is complete nonsense, as everybody else knows. We are perfectly entitled to bring forward an amendment. The Minister has already made the point that, on the previous Justice (No. 1) Bill two years ago, the DUP did exactly the same thing at Further Consideration Stage. Do not lecture us about that. If we dug down far enough, we would find that every party in the House —”
“The Member makes the point for me, so I will move on to something else.”
“I know that it sounds cynical, but really —”
“Is it some civilian group set up under the auspices of the Health Minister to come back with draft legislation on a matter that is more to do with the criminal law? Other people have said that they are prepared to give this a fair run to see what the outcome is. I have to take that view as well.”
“If you want to intervene, stand up. They were circulated on a confidential basis to Executive Ministers. I have not seen them. Frankly, I doubt if they are worth the paper that they are written on, because of where they are coming from. I will link that to the suggestion, which miraculously appeared yesterday, that we are going to have a commission to look at all the issues on this matter. The commission, apparently, will be composed of people outside this Assembly who will be charged to report back within six months, which is conveniently past the election date. I am not the first one to surmise that there is some connection there. It will also be charged to perhaps come back with draft legislation. Who are the legislators here?”