Trevor Lunn
Lagan Valley · Independent · Northern Ireland
“I know what I am going to do: I am not quite sure what he is going to do. <BR /> <BR />In discussion at the Committee, we had submissions from the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS) and the Catholic Schools' Trustee Service.”
“They are relaxed about this. I know that they have some concerns about the Catholic ethos of their schools, but I cannot believe that the admission of non-Catholic teachers into Catholic schools will change the ethos of those schools at all. There is more of an obligation on teachers coming in to accept that ethos and run with it.”
“All that I can say to that is that the women, mostly, and couples who go to an abortion clinic, advisory service, hospital or private hospital are also entitled to freedom of movement and freedom of action. They are entitled to that under the law that was brought in by the British Government.”
“. Not yet, anyway. We have had this Bill from Chris, two Bills from the Green Party, and I forget the others. It has been a good day and, as others have said — yes, Pat Catney, of course, my constituency colleague, as well — it indicates what the Assembly is capable of.”
“The other day, we talked about the Brook advisory clinic and all the shenanigans around it. Most people here are too young to remember that, but it was effectively the same issue. <BR /> <BR />We are where we are. I hope that the Bill will pass; I am sure that it will now, judging by the tenor of the House. It will be another step.”
“<BR /> <BR />Back in 2015, I decided to visit the Marie Stopes clinic. I wanted to find out exactly what it was about. That year, the police had been called to the front of the clinic 200 times.”
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“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Ceist uimhir a sé. That is question number 6, Minister.”
“— the reference group, the charitable endeavours, the community grants scheme and so on, provides a way to smooth the way back into society for our veterans. I thoroughly support the motion. If it had gone a bit further, I would still have supported it. It is a good motion.”
“The MOD said that it had taken legal advice on the question of section 75 being in conflict with the covenant and had come to the conclusion that it was not insuperable, let us put it that way. There may be some slight difficulties, but, with a reasonable approach and a fair attitude, it can be dealt with. <BR /> <BR />If our veterans, the injured and the bereaved need special assistance to reintegrate and move on with their lives, the covenant, through its schemes, the covenant for communities —”
“<BR /> <BR />Old sores take time to heal, but people who do not support this proposition might need to reflect on where we would be today had it not been for the actions of our armed forces through the centuries. We can stand here now and speak with freedom because we fought the good fight when it had to be fought, and we cannot forget about our veterans. This is a big debate in the States as well, but we should be able to deal with it. <BR /> <BR />The question of section 75 was raised. The implementation group — the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee — came to the conclusion three or four years ago that this was not a particular problem, stating:”
“Mr Kelly, in his remarks, was very measured; towards the end he was less measured, but he sympathised with those who had been injured and bereaved, and I give him credit for that. Both Mr Beattie and Mr Kelly made the point that armies do not decide where they go to fight; Governments do that. If a soldier or an airman or a sailor comes back to Northern Ireland injured and needs particular treatment through rehabilitation, education, the health service or housing, it is incumbent on our Government, whether the UK Government or the Northern Ireland Assembly, to provide them with the very best facilities and treatment that they can, because we owe it to them.”
“I do not know what the objection is, because I have not studied it closely enough, but somebody seems to be objecting to this move. I hope that, on the basis of what has been said today, that objection will be removed. <BR /> <BR />Northern Ireland has done pretty well from the present arrangement. As we all know, £450 million has gone to Combat Stress in either this financial year or the last one, and I am told that about £1 million has been invested in Northern Ireland projects, which is 10% of the annual spend for our much trumpeted 3% of the population. So, we do pretty well. However, it is important that we are represented at the heart of this, and I hope that the Executive Office moves ahead to appoint somebody. <BR /> <BR />I appreciate that not all our population might be in total agreement with this.”
“We support the motion. I congratulate Mr Beattie for tabling it and for proposing it in, in his own words, a "soft" way. I agree with his sentiments, and I also agree very much with Mrs Hale. I do not pretend to have the experience that either Mr Beattie or Mrs Hale has in this area, but I am prepared to learn. They both spoke remarkably well. <BR /> <BR />Should we be represented? Of course we should. This is a covenant that arises from the Armed Forces Act, which applies to the whole of the United Kingdom, and we appear to be the only part of the United Kingdom not represented on the reference group. Northern Ireland is getting some benefit from the various funds. We could perhaps continue to have no direct input into the reference group and hope for the best, but it would not make any sense to do so when there is a place there for us.”
“The Minister mentioned a £3 million injection of funds this year. Prior to this, the Supporting People fund was frozen for nine years. What plans does he have to make sure this situation does not arise again, so that this very good scheme can continue and flourish?”
“We mean that to apply to heterosexuals and homosexuals — any group affected by this. We cannot meaningfully talk about removing the stigma if we cannot commit to that. On top of that, it is about putting the requirements in the motion to remove stigma and implement a centre of excellence into action and about making the principles of the road map, which is based on Professor Bengoa's report on early intervention and prevention, real for hundreds of people. <BR /> <BR />I hope the amendment and the motion will receive full support in the House today. I think they are very worthwhile. This is a good day for the Assembly.”
“The estimate for introducing it in the UK is under £20 million a year. Some of the treatments we hear about from advances in medicine will cost that for 200 patients, so that would probably equate to about — what? —under half a million in our case. <BR /> <BR />Our amendment specifically focuses on equity of access to medication across the UK so that we can benefit from research and commissioning work. It is entirely consistent with the prevention programme set out in the motion, and, just as relevantly, it is consistent with the stated intent in the Minister's road map to promote and emphasise prevention in general. Therefore, our amendment is about making a clear statement that people with HIV in Northern Ireland will not be disadvantaged compared to those elsewhere in the UK.”
“I know you have to go through the full tests and all the rest of it. It is a treatment that is targeted at at-risk groups, most obviously HIV negative men who are perhaps in a relationship with HIV positive men. It is sometimes referred to, I believe, as a contraceptive pill for HIV. Whatever about that, it is a treatment that has great possibilities, and we should embrace it if we can. <BR />I advise you, Minister, to keep in touch with your colleagues across the water, because NHS England has now been instructed by the courts to consider commissioning PrEP. It is the Clinical Priorities Advisory Group that would essentially determine whether it has sufficient priority. The probability is that it will, not least because, for once with a new drug, the costs appear to be relatively low.”
“On the back of yesterday's unanimous, or almost unanimous, acceptance of the need for a pardon for homosexual offences, which the DUP supported, this has been a good week for equality and minority rights. <BR /> <BR />We have no problem with the motion. Our amendment does not alter it; it supplements it slightly. I do not think Mr Sheehan is here, but I will correct what he said: our amendment does not demand the introduction of prophylaxis straight away. It requests — this is for the Minister, really — that, if the time comes when prophylaxis is accepted in the UK, we should not delay bringing it in here. Sometimes there is a big delay, but it is not necessary. It is already available in several countries. I think it was Clare Bailey who said it is available on the Internet as well.”
“I also saw those documentaries, and, when history is written, Freddie Mercury's contribution in all this will be recognised, if it has not already been.”
“I support amendment No 2 and the motion. I will say straight away that it is really encouraging to hear two DUP Members — I fancy that we will hear from another one shortly — speak in support of the motion. You maybe do not realise that you are breaking new ground today by tabling a motion like this. That is to be welcomed. I take Mr Middleton's point that HIV is not restricted to a particular group in society, but that group is the main victim of it. I take the point that 40% of cases involve heterosexual contact. I listened particularly carefully to Mr Clarke. I thought that he made a very personal speech, and I will just say, "Well done". We are all Freddie Mercury fans in this place: it is cross-party, believe me.”
“I thank Mr Attwood for his comprehensive reply. Does he agree that the situation with the employment of constituency staff is grossly unfair, flies in the face of employment law and would not be tolerated in any other forum? Is he really satisfied that the Assembly Commission has no role to play in that matter and is able to say, "Blame the IFRP", which does not even exist any more?”
“I am getting there. Can the Minister give an absolute assurance that she will deal with each incident equally, no matter what the institution is or who the person is, and that all institutions and people will receive whatever measure of protection is available to her?”
“The statistic that Mr Beggs just gave us is absolutely deplorable, but it does not take away from the fact that many institutions are being attacked in this country, and many foreign nationals and EU citizens —”
“I thank the First Minister for the points she made and the answer she gave. Some of us met WAVE's injured campaign group today. On their behalf, I wish to ask if and when the Executive Office will introduce seriously injured pension legislation for consideration by the House, given, as we all know, the length of time that people have been waiting?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Thank you very much, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker.”
“No, you did not. I suggest to people like Mr Allister that they should reflect on their views on this issue. On a different side of the issue, Members will be aware that I had a change of mind on homosexuality and same-sex marriage. I suggest to Mr Allister that he should engage with those in the LGBT community and find out what their feelings are about this and the sort of attitude that he portrays. He might also have a word with the British Psychological Society, which had such an effect on me in the circumstances. I am putting on the record that I think that his amendment is disgraceful. I sincerely hope that he cannot get the second teller because, if it is forced to a vote, it will be a sad reflection on the House.”
“You did not answer Claire Hanna's question, for a start.”
“I will in a minute. He finds it distasteful. He has said so, so many times, and now it is on the record. He has said it in the open, in the Chamber, and it is there for posterity. In the future, people will decide what they think about it. I will give way to him.”
“Frankly, I think that Mr Allister, as he went on, betrayed his own prejudice and his own feelings several times. I will not detail what he said — it is in Hansard — but it is pretty obvious. Even the way in which he says LGBT, as if he has a bad taste in his mouth, is disgraceful, and he refused to answer questions from various Members. Mr Allister's problem is that he does not like homosexuality.”
“The last section is the pardon for homosexual offences. I do not know what to say about this, but I will say something anyway. I just hope that Mr Allister never has a relative who is LGBT, because, frankly, I wonder what he would say to him or her. I listened to Mr Allister with considerable respect because he has a very good legal brain, although he let himself down eventually. He talked about process and pointed out some defects in the not quite normal way in which this has been dealt with. There should have been a consultation and all the rest of it, but that does not make it any less desirable that we do something about a law that, as Ms Boyle said, should never have been passed in the first place. This is putting something right that was never right to start with.”
“Maybe it is a good start for the PSNI, in that it can now rigorously enforce our law in our territorial waters. <BR /> <BR />The cross-jurisdictional arrest powers are also a very good piece of tidying up that is probably long overdue. I note it applies only to very serious offences that carry the potential for a 10-year sentence. That is pretty severe. It means the police can do the natural thing. If they see somebody who is wanted, with or without a warrant, they can arrest them for a fixed period while the necessary paperwork comes through, for want of a better description.”
“Presumably, if Mr Aiken had his way, we would use submarines to do a bit of hot pursuing; they would not even know they were there. This is over the top, frankly, but we are where we are. <BR /> <BR />Another bit of the LCM is to do with maritime enforcement powers; they are now being extended for Northern Ireland — the PSNI — to operate in its own territorial waters. That is a good thing. Prior to this LCM, the police had to try to establish whether the boat was one they were suspicious was operating in human trafficking, slavery, forced labour or servitude. In other words, if the police thought it was carrying drugs, they could not do anything about it. Presumably, if they thought the boat was stolen, they could not do anything about it either. Now, at least, that has been tidied up. That is a good thing.”
“It does? Well, there you are; there is another one. They are going to have to carry a computer to decide whose water they are in. This is all to do with trying to apprehend criminals and chasing boats around the Irish Sea, which is not much bigger than a big pond. It is ridiculous that we are having to go through all this just to try to establish whose jurisdiction it is in the United Kingdom, who should be accountable to whom and who can enter whose territorial waters. I had better not go on about that. We are not talking about the Baltic Sea or the Red Sea or that wee bit of water between Cuba and America.”
“<BR /> <BR />As regards the hot pursuit issue, words fail me. I wonder what happened to the "U" in "United Kingdom" in all this. The fact is that we have a 12-mile limit in Northern Ireland, and so has England, Scotland and Wales. Presumably, so has the Isle of Man; I do not really know, but maybe it has.”
“We also support the LCM in its entirety. Like others, I do not want to repeat a whole lot of what has been said. The Minister laid out the terms of the LCM quite adequately. Mr Frew certainly did justice to the concerns the Committee had about the process and the hoops we had to go through. Every Committee meeting seemed to have another twist and turn. I agree with the Minister to the extent that the Department did not cover itself with glory in that episode. To my mind, neither did the PSNI, which could not seem to make up its mind whether it wanted hot pursuit, even though it has two lovely new boats that will go more than 12 miles. The Policing Board also could not seem to make up its mind; it could not come to an agreement about the way forward. It was not the Department's best day, but it was not helped by those other organisations.”
“Would the Minister consider devolving speed limits to local councils, on the basis that it might allow them to reduce speed limits near facilities other than schools?”
“<BR /> <BR />I look forward to hearing from the Minister, even though he is not particularly listening to me at the moment.”
“The call for long-term energy security and affordability in the motion is well made. It should be given a high priority in the emerging Programme for Government. I look forward to hearing from the Minister about that and all the other aspects that Members raised. The two Government parties should not, as usual, just dismiss a valid motion that has a lot of merit. It is an important issue. No offence to Mr Storey, but we should not talk it down in the way in which it has been. It is valid. It needs to be discussed. The lights could go out. We could have a brownout: I had never heard that word before; I thought that we had blackouts. Whatever kind of outage it is, it is coming down the track. This place will be in an energy deficit by 2020 or 2021 if we do not do something about it.”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. That is, in a way, the tragedy of the RHI. The rest of the UK was a year and a half ahead of us and had a perfectly good scheme that is still running satisfactorily, and we did not take the best and most prudent aspects of that scheme and run with them, such as the ability to tier payments and degression. I really do not want to spend my time on that, because it is for another day. There will be another day for that in the House, and some sections of the House will have a field day on it. It is a disgrace.”
“It also refers to the "policy vacuum" that caused. I completely agree with Ms Bradley. We do not disagree with the ending of the renewables obligation, but the discussion about the RHI will soon take place in the House and, frankly, the sooner the better. For the record, it should be said that whoever sanctioned the RHI scheme — there were various stages in the process — which was an arrangement designed in such a way as to ensure profit for overheating commercial premises and effectively legalise fraud, should hang their head in shame and not deny liability by protesting that they could not be concerned with every jot and tittle of major departmental policy. That jot and tittle will cost upwards of £600 million. It may well go to £1 billion. It is an absolute disgrace.”
“It really is the elephant in the room: do we need the North/South interconnector or not? Of course we do. It is the only thing that can give us any long-term stability of supply. It has now been in planning, I believe, since 2009. It has the ability to consolidate the all-Ireland energy market. Most of continental Europe is already interconnected. Somebody mentioned the Moyle interconnector: how many years out of those 15 has the Moyle interconnector worked at full capacity? I think the figure is none. It has been out of commission for some of those years. Even now, it is still not working at its full capacity. We are in trouble here with the electricity supply if we do not do something about it. I look forward to listening to the Minister's comments about the North/South interconnector. <BR /> <BR />The motion refers to:”
“There are wars in the Middle East, and our gas and oil pipelines that come from northern Russia somewhere actually run through the Ukraine and Georgia — all these happily contented countries where nothing ever happens that could cause destabilisation. <BR /> <BR />The ability of our generation system to meet peak demand is still worrying, and I think others referred to that. The consequence of sterling's decline against the dollar following the referendum — it is almost 20% now since 23 June — is worrying. It may be good for retailers along the border, but it is not much good in the long term that sterling is weak. Eventually, if energy is expensive, prices rise, trade becomes more difficult and international investors will look elsewhere. <BR /> <BR />At that point, I will just say something about the North/South interconnector.”
“I am not a member of the Committee, but I must say at the outset that it is not clear to me why electricity prices for non-domestic large users are as much as 60% above the European median, because other users' prices are falling. That is for a more expert person than me to figure out. I can see that the pure cost of energy in the UK is amongst the highest in Europe, given our peripheral position and the fact that the UK is a net importer of energy. Our dependence on imported energy is, I believe, now back at levels last seen in the 1970s, although, in fairness, all EU countries are now energy importers. The dependence the UK now has on imported energy from unstable areas of the world — the Middle East and Russia — really is very worrying.”
“I support the motion. I hope I do not say the wrong thing and cause Mr Storey to light up again.”
“I will give the Minister another chance to answer the question that he failed to answer a few moments ago. Does he have NILGA's support for what he is doing, and can he name a council that supports his position?”
“Does the Minister agree that we train too many teachers? One of the criticisms of his two predecessors was that they asked for far too many teachers to be trained without the expectation of a job. Will he undertake to review that situation now that he has control of the numbers?”
“I am quite encouraged by the Minster's answer. On the back of that, does he think that GEMS, which has done a lot of work in his constituency on employability, really needs an organisation like Charter NI to provide management services, given that it has provided much larger contracts without that requirement in the past?”
“I thank the Minister for his statement. It is encouraging to hear a Minister saying he is going to stop faffing around and take some hard decisions, so I welcome that. <BR /> <BR />I am still on charity shops, Minister. Is the Minister minded, as part of the consultation, to examine what constitutes a charity shop? I have no wish to put the boot into them but some of the current charity shops are acting in direct competition with fully fledged shops that are paying fully fledged rates. The Minister talks about balance and a constructive approach but I question, in terms of procurement of stock and the way they operate, whether some of them are actually what was meant to be a charity shop at the beginning of all this.”
“I thank the deputy First Minister for his statement. On economic matters, are we now satisfied that the Industrial Development Agency Ireland and Invest Northern Ireland will operate in a fair and equitable manner, that any problems caused by the previous accusation that IDA Ireland is attempting to poach our industrial opportunities have been dealt with and that we can move on?”
“In the recent case of self-harm, prison staff and senior prison staff stood by for over half an hour and watched while a man slashed his own groin and then blinded himself manually. Is the Minister satisfied that, whatever comes out of this review, prison staff will be encouraged to take the initiative and take responsibility when required and stop this sort of thing if it is being observed rather than wait for somebody to give them guidance?”
“I thank the Minister for her statement. It refers to a proportional response and the need for:”
“I will reserve judgement. Possibly, it will not get pushed to a vote; that would probably be the best thing.”
“I am sure that I made the point about the notion that you would go back to the original priorities. The original priorities are to give children who are on the spectrum the very best treatment, assessment and therapy that we can provide. I will wait to hear if anybody can suggest a better way than what Middletown is doing at the moment, except that if you give them 50% more money, Minister, they will do 50% better and probably look after 50% more teachers, children and parents. You probably get the drift of what I think about the motion by now.”
“I thank Mrs Overend. I was not aware that there is no record kept, in fact I am a bit surprised by that. Surely a record must be kept in the schools in question, mostly special schools? I have spoken to the people at Harberton School in my area and they think that this service is invaluable. The way in which it is being delivered now is not really open to question. <BR /> <BR />The motion kind of gives us a bit of a problem. We decided yesterday that we would probably support it, but the more I look at it, the more I wonder what it is that we are supporting. I cannot help thinking that it is an education motion and that, perhaps, Sinn Féin might wish that it had done its homework, because the way it is worded does not add up.”
“In terms of ensuring that they are fully funded, their budget was set at £2·174 million in 2012 and that has not been revised. I suppose you could give thanks that it has not been cut again. It is a piffling amount given what they do and the expertise that is required and which they provide. It should have been reviewed at least in line with inflation over those years. The only thing that they did get was £90,000 in one of the recent monitoring rounds to, frankly, avert a crisis in wages, which was what was happening. <BR /> <BR />I have no doubt that, if the House does nothing else today but ask the Minister to ensure that the service is fully funded, that would be a step forward. Fully funded means more than the £2·174 million per year that was set almost five years ago, Minister, but that is a matter for you.”
“The treatment and assessment that it provides can last up to a year. So, it is either a year for 64 children or five weeks for 150; the experts in this field are in no doubt which is the better option. <BR /> <BR />The motion calls for another evaluation. The last evaluation report was in September, just passed, and it was outstanding. The one in 2012 said the same thing — outstanding. These people really deliver value for money, and the training that they provide for teachers and parents across the island, and the effect that they have on the children they are allowed to concentrate on, is recognised widely. This is a really good scheme and a really good centre. Frankly, they do not want residential down there; it would divert them from what they think is the best option for them.”