Trevor Lunn
Lagan Valley · Independent · Northern Ireland
“I know what I am going to do: I am not quite sure what he is going to do. <BR /> <BR />In discussion at the Committee, we had submissions from the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS) and the Catholic Schools' Trustee Service.”
“They are relaxed about this. I know that they have some concerns about the Catholic ethos of their schools, but I cannot believe that the admission of non-Catholic teachers into Catholic schools will change the ethos of those schools at all. There is more of an obligation on teachers coming in to accept that ethos and run with it.”
“All that I can say to that is that the women, mostly, and couples who go to an abortion clinic, advisory service, hospital or private hospital are also entitled to freedom of movement and freedom of action. They are entitled to that under the law that was brought in by the British Government.”
“. Not yet, anyway. We have had this Bill from Chris, two Bills from the Green Party, and I forget the others. It has been a good day and, as others have said — yes, Pat Catney, of course, my constituency colleague, as well — it indicates what the Assembly is capable of.”
“The other day, we talked about the Brook advisory clinic and all the shenanigans around it. Most people here are too young to remember that, but it was effectively the same issue. <BR /> <BR />We are where we are. I hope that the Bill will pass; I am sure that it will now, judging by the tenor of the House. It will be another step.”
“<BR /> <BR />Back in 2015, I decided to visit the Marie Stopes clinic. I wanted to find out exactly what it was about. That year, the police had been called to the front of the clinic 200 times.”
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“I hear what Mr McCausland says about the controlled sector. I am delighted that the controlled sector will have a representative body that will be tasked to advance and promote the controlled sector as best it can. The integrated and Irish-medium sectors have had it built into legislation since 1989 that they should receive special treatment. That is based on parental demand and choice. All that we are doing is bringing that formally into the Bill and including the word "promote", which has never been there before. We are not trying to advance integrated education at the expense of the controlled sector. They all need promotion.”
“I just want to clarify things for the Member: that Bill was killed by both parties — the Ulster Unionists and the DUP. The Ulster Unionist Members were not on the Committee at that time, so their memory has gone dim, but it was as much your fault as theirs.”
“There is bound to be legislation that will come forward in future years to resurrect some of the very good stuff that was in both ESA Bills. Hopefully, we can at least get this Bill through. It is urgent. It is important legislation, even though it is short and simple. It is urgent, and we need to get it done. <BR /> <BR />I will conclude my remarks on that point. We will return to this at Consideration Stage.”
“That has never been enshrined in legislation, but maybe it is time. I know also that the 1989 Order refers to the boards as well as the Department, so you might say that what I am going to suggest is unnecessary, but we will probably table an amendment along the lines that the new authority should have an obligation to encourage, facilitate and promote the Irish-language and integrated sectors. <BR /> <BR />We have come a long way with this legislation. Unfortunately, it has been backward rather than forward. If you look at what was in the original ESA Bill in 2008, then look at what was taken out to produce what I thought was an acceptable Bill in 2012, which was not to be, and then look at what we are left with now, you will see that this Bill is right back to the bare bones.”
“The 1989 Order, as we all know, places an onus on the Department to "encourage and facilitate". I remind Members that, two or three years ago — I do not have the date to hand — the House voted to call on the Minister of Education:”
“There is a question about the voluntary grammars. We are inclined to think that, as of right, the grammar school sector needs representation and a place on the board of the authority. The question that has been put to me is whether that position should refer to voluntary grammars or just to grammars. There are plenty of controlled grammars out there, and they make the point of asking who is representing them. They have common interests with the controlled sector generally, but they also have a common interest with the voluntary grammars. If we table an amendment on that basis, it will say "grammars" rather than "voluntary grammars". <BR /> <BR />We also intend to table an amendment on behalf of, let us say, the integrated and Irish-medium sectors.”
“<BR /> <BR />I heard the figure of 60 mentioned in reference to the number who serve on boards at the moment. Presumably, that excludes the South Eastern Board. In my time, we have had dealings with that board, and it is the only one I know the figure for. The South Eastern Board alone had 20 members, and I imagine that the figure for the other boards was similar. Therefore, if we could scale the figure down from 80 to 20 or 22, we would not be doing too badly. I remind the Minister and others — one or two in the Chamber will remember — that, in Caitríona Ruane's time, the original proposal for the board of the first ESA was seven members. She was pretty unyielding on that point, but, through various means and discussions, we have finally got to the point at which we have been offered 19 members plus a chairman.”
“It does not do any harm to have what I might call a moderate voice at the table as well, so we will table an amendment along those lines. <BR /> <BR />We agree with others that the integrated and Irish-medium sectors could do with proper representation. I heard Mr Storey making the point that they have never had that, but that is not a reason for not changing things. Between them, the Irish-medium and integrated sectors represent a fairly significant percentage of the school population. That should be a growing percentage, but that is for another day. It is a good opportunity and a good time to introduce proper representation on this board, so we will table amendments to tinker with the numbers. I think that we will suggest that the board end up with 22 members instead of 20.”
“So, I do not think that there is any democratic deficit or whatever you call it these days. The Bill can be raked over by anybody who really wants to do that. <BR /> <BR />We, like others, have said that we have reservations about certain aspects of the Bill, and I will give you a flavour of those. The representation of political members, of which there are to be eight, conveniently excludes one of the parties in government here. I can draw a comparison with the Policing Board, which has 10 members, and the Executive, where a smaller party qualifies for a position. The educational set-up in this country is such that, quite frequently, nationalists and unionists are clearly opposed. To me, that is quite unnecessary at times, but it just the nature of things.”
“<BR /> <BR />Through all of this, the one common thread — the Minister referred to it — has been that the basic idea was to streamline the operation of the education system. I had never heard, until today, any objection to the principle of combining the boards into one unit. Today is the first time that I have heard that, and it is a pity, but we will now, hopefully, move towards one authority. <BR /> <BR />The Bill is before us, and the time pressures, as the Minister outlined to the Committee and today, have convinced most of us to grant it accelerated passage. That is where we are now. The only real differences are in the consultation and Committee scrutiny, but we have the opportunity here, without a time limit, to scrutinise this short Bill adequately.”
“A very learned gentleman — I will not name him or say where he came from — said that ESA would put up the school wage bill by 30%. Utter nonsense, and those are only two examples, but the Bill is history now. It was not going to happen and was withdrawn by the Minister. <BR /> <BR />The next decision was earlier this year, and it was to reboot, as you put it, Minister, the education boards. Through all of this, the education boards, school employees and the whole structure soldiered on manfully. However, in terms of staff morale, vacancy control, people having to act up and others taking early redundancy, it has been a very trying time for the boards, staff and schools. I pay tribute, as others did, to the way that the people working in these situations have managed to keep the ship afloat and get us to where we are now.”
“We did not have too many issues with it, but, this time, a combination of unionism and a very vociferous grammar school campaign by the Governing Bodies Association eventually put a stop to it. It was not helped, frankly, by the heads of agreement, which the Minister referred to. There was a clear contradiction in the heads of agreement and between the heads of agreement and the Bill. The Department constantly denied that there was such a contradiction, but there was. It has been referred to recently and is a fact. That Bill was eventually withdrawn by the Minister, but not before we had to listen to nonsense such as that the ESA Bill would, allegedly, force all schools to teach Irish. That was put to me by somebody who should have known better and could not read the Queen's English.”
“I believe that the original intention of all parties was to try to produce a final Bill that would be acceptable to the Assembly, but that just did not happen. <BR /> <BR />The 2012 Bill was a slimmed-down version, and it was mostly acceptable to me and my party.”
“It was such an ambitious project that it had to be split, and the Assembly and the Committee were unwilling to accept the first Bill without having had sight of the second. Frankly, we thought that all the bad bits would be loaded into the second Bill. <BR /> <BR />By the time that we got a draft of the second Bill, the Assembly — in fairness, mostly the unionist side of the fence — decided that it was not worth trying to proceed with it. From memory, the draft second Bill was produced on the eve of recess, and it just drifted away. Unionists decided that it was not acceptable. It was very ambitious and was probably too ambitious at the time. As I think the Chair said, an awful lot of Committee time was spent on it. From memory, we spent about nine months in Committee scrutinising the Bill, and it was committed scrutiny.”
“Before I start, I want to comment on the accusation that I said that this was not worth fighting for. I did not say any such thing, and I am sure that Hansard will have reported that. I see Sandra smiling, so perhaps she realises that. What I said was that, at this stage and after seven years, some of us were getting a bit war-weary and would accept almost anything. That does not mean to say that we will not scrutinise the Bill fully and give it the attention that it deserves. That is not quite the same thing as saying that it is not worth fighting for. <BR /> <BR />It is quite refreshing to be talking in the Assembly about an education Bill, because this is the first time in seven and a half years that we have been able to do that. None of the other Bills made it to the House. Members referred to the 2008 Bill, which was in two parts.”
“I know that I am being cynical, Mr Kinahan, but that is the way that it sounds. There always seems to be opposition to everything. I can find no sensible reason to oppose accelerated passage for the Bill. As I said, those of us who have been with it for seven years have to welcome it. It is a stopgap arrangement. A lot more will come down the track eventually, but I will have more to say about that in the next debate.”
“I do not know, frankly, what the Member means about what is coming with it. We can have that discussion at the next Stage. There is plenty of time, certainly this afternoon, for a lot more detail. <BR /> <BR />In the meantime, as somebody has already said, the education boards are, in the Chairperson's words, limping along. That is being kind to them — they are almost broken. We badly need a new arrangement. There are certainly questions to be asked about it. Will it save £180 million in the next 10 years as was actually promised for ESA? That was an ESA figure: it does not necessarily apply to this. As regards whether there is one board or three, I have an awful feeling that if the Minister had proposed three boards, the Ulster Unionists would now propose one. We just cannot keep on doing business like this.”
“That is what this short debate was meant to be about, although I hear an awful lot of detailed stuff coming in already. What is left of what was a good Bill is so simple. I hear Mr Kinahan saying that we do not know enough detail of the Bill. Well, read it. It is only really a couple of pages. The rest of it is all of the tidying-up stuff, repeals and amendments of previous legislation.”
“I apologise to the Minister for not being here for most of his statement. I was unavoidably detained. <BR /> <BR />Those of us who have been with this process since 2007 effectively, which includes the Minister himself and, to a certain extent, the current Committee Chair, would almost accept anything at this stage. We have been through an ESA Bill that was split in two, followed by a further ESA Bill. What we are looking at now are the tattered remnants of what was actually a very good Bill, the second ESA Bill, but it is the best that the Minister can hope to achieve through the House at the present time. Somebody mentioned the eleventh-hour nature of it. Frankly, we do everything at the eleventh hour, do we not? That is the way in which this House works — by deadlines. <BR /> <BR />We have no problem with accelerated passage.”
“I thank the Minister for that answer. I understand that the rules in respect of state assistance are going to change. Will the Minister comment on what complexities or challenges that might bring about?”
“As I said, I mean no disrespect whatsoever to the other candidates. They have both been excellent Deputy Speakers, and I am sure that they will continue to be so, but I think that it is the right thing to do.”
“I support the comments of my party leader and the nomination of Mitchel McLaughlin to the post of Speaker. In doing so, I mean absolutely no disrespect to Mr Dallat or Mr Beggs. I am sure that both would make excellent Speakers, but it seems logical that the new Speaker should come from the largest nationalist party at this time. <BR /> <BR />I have been listening for quite some time, and I wonder what advice William Hay would give the House. We talked about his sense of fair play and negotiating skills. I am absolutely certain that William Hay would endorse the nomination of Mitchel McLaughlin, not because they both come from Derry or Londonderry but because it is the right thing to do. I hope that the House will follow that argument. I hope that we will confirm a nationalist, hopefully Mr McLaughlin, in the post.”
“As you can tell, I am not convinced one way or the other, but I think that it is certainly worthy of further exploration.”
“I wonder whether the proposers of the motion, and indeed everybody else here, are prepared to commit to supporting exploratory drilling without seeking local political gain. Let us face it: every time that we have had an environmentally friendly energy proposal — wind turbines, waste incinerators, hydro schemes and wave power — a head of steam, if I can say that, has built up in opposition to it. I wonder whether that will happen again, even if it is proven that this is liable to be comparatively environmentally friendly. <BR /> <BR />I would like to hear more from the Minister about incentives already available and any further potential incentives, given the obvious lack of potential for committing extra funding just now. <BR /> <BR />I will leave it at that.”
“Yes, I understand that, but I still do not think that it has the potential for as much destruction to the environment in terms of producing gases. That is what fracking is all about. I would certainly be prepared to give it a fair wind. It is worthy of more exploration. Look at the countries around the world that have gone with this: are Iceland or New Zealand regarded as environmentally unfriendly? I really think that we should look that this very seriously and not accept that it is just another form of fracking, because I do not believe that it is. <BR /> <BR />Inevitably, when the time comes, if we ever get round to it, there will be a lot of local opposition. You can already see it forming here. That will happen not least because, if we go ahead with this sort of exploration, it will be in some of our most scenic locations.”
“Both involve a hole in the ground, but, beyond that, I cannot see how pumping water down a hole so that it heats up and pumping it back up again is the —”
“Extraction will, effectively, be a private enterprise, and, at least in part, we need to know how to prioritise the areas of opportunity around County Antrim because the same investors who might be looking there will also be looking at the Grampians, Cornwall, Yorkshire or other areas where potential exists. So we need to make it attractive for investors. That is all that the motion asks. We should be in no doubt that we need to deliver on energy costs and supply in this country. What we have at the moment is far too fragile and too dependent on others. <BR /> <BR />I heard the discussion about the comparison with fracking. Again, my lack of knowledge will come to the fore, but it seems to me that it is really not the same thing.”
“I think that we are moving in the right direction. A geological survey and other evidence tell us where the hotspots are. We have heard them mentioned several times. They are certainly around County Antrim, particularly north Antrim, and perhaps into south Derry. I know that the Committee has already looked at this area in some detail, so we are in no doubt about the potential. <BR /> <BR />There may be some time pressures. We are in a long-term project to try to improve our energy supply, costs and prices, but we could find ourselves competing with other parts of the UK.”
“I am happy to support the motion. It is fairly limited and just asks for appropriate legislation and incentives to support the potential development of the industry. That is fair enough. I must confess that I have listened with interest today to the various experts on the topic; it is not something that I know much about. I listened to Professor Flanagan, Mrs Overend and Mr Dunne with interest.”
“I think that there was some difference of opinion between Crusaders and Linfield, which has now been resolved. Is the Minister satisfied that the concerns of the other Irish League clubs based in the Belfast area will be properly addressed as the saga goes on?”
“<BR /> <BR />He was a solid citizen and a solid Ulster Unionist, with a good history in politics and a good history in life. So, on behalf of the Alliance Party, I send our condolences to Joy, his wife, and his three sons, Kyle, George and Nigel, and to the Ulster Unionist community. He will be sadly missed.”
“George was a gentleman. The word "gentleman" has been used so often, but it does not do any harm to repeat it: he was polite and he was calm. He was the Mayor of Craigavon twice, which was quite an achievement. He was the sort of solid citizen that nobody ever said a bad word about, and why should they have, because he was good man. He was a good family man, a good neighbour and a good politician. He was quiet in his way, fair enough, but a lot of us are quiet in our ways and are just as effective. He will be sadly missed. <BR /> <BR />I know about his history now: he was a member of the UDR, an Orangeman and a farmer. It was one of his Masonic colleagues who told me, about a month ago, that he was not well at all, but it still came as a big shock that he passed away so quickly.”
“I am conscious of the fact that everybody who has spoken so far probably knew George Savage better than I did. I knew him as a colleague here in the last mandate just for four years, and I got to know him fairly well. I am impressed that there have been such fulsome tributes from what you might call political opponents. It says a lot about George, the man and the politician, that even, dare I say, John O'Dowd from Sinn Féin can pay such a tribute to an Ulster Unionist. That is very good to see.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. Does he agree that the longer that it takes the Executive to make decisions on those issues, the harder that it will be to make the savings required? On the back of that, does he also agree that this matter requires urgent Executive attention and that the First Minister and the deputy First Minister might profitably use their time on addressing such issues rather than swanning around Gleneagles at the Ryder Cup?”
“For now, I think that the best thing that we can do is to keep the pressure on and hope that we can come up with something that is satisfactory for everybody. I cannot quite see how we can do that at present, but that is not to say that we should not try.”
“However, I am not sure whether direct-delivery competition is the biggest threat to their existence. Others have pointed out that electronic mail, social media and the Internet's speedy services have hit the Post Office and will probably continue to do so. <BR /> <BR />At the moment, there is nothing specifically to hinder private operators offering a cross-border service for letters as well as parcels. In a normal way, I would encourage competition as a means — indeed, the only effective means — of reducing prices, but the final part of the amendment calls on the Minister to work through the NSMC and Westminster to:”
“Royal Mail has been privatised and is free to set its prices, subject only to certain caps on second-class services and a commitment to universal service to any part of the UK. It is hard to see how such a pricing gap as currently exists can be bridged, but, by all means, let us ask the question and keep at the topic. I imagine that the NSMC is a good starting point for somewhere to raise it. <BR /> <BR />To return to the amendment, the viability of our rural post offices is a major issue. It did not particularly need to be connected to the motion, because it goes well beyond just postal services. As Mr Elliott rightly said, our rural post offices are community hubs. They are a point of contact, particularly for older people, and we should do what we can to protect them.”
“However, one does wonder in passing whether the system in the Republic is underfunded. An Post could certainly make a case for extra investment to modernise the operation and provide a more efficient service, but that, of course, is a matter for it and not for us. <BR /> <BR />The motion calls for the Minister to raise the matter at an NSMC meeting. I have written in my notes that I look forward to hearing her comments at the end of the debate, but it does not look as though there will be any. I imagine that, as it is a reserved matter, she does not have to respond, but I note that there has been previous discussion of the matter at NSMC meetings. <BR /> <BR />The issue is complex.”
“I wonder why there is such a price differential for the same service, even though there is a border. It is an amazing difference. I am told that, in Germany, for instance, sending a letter anywhere in the EU is the same price. It is the same price to any one of 27 countries. If you exclude the Scandinavian countries, the UK has the most expensive postage in Europe. The comparison gets even starker when a letter is A4 in size: the price for sending that from North to South rises to £3·20, compared with €1·20, about £1, for one South to North. It is not helped by An Post's poor record of delivery times, but I noted that Mr Flanagan pointed out that those letters have to go from here to GB first and then on to the Republic, so I imagine that it is not entirely the An Post's fault.”
“My party supports the amendment, and, if that does not pass, will happily support the motion. They are both very worthy, and, even if what is being demanded may be very difficult to achieve, it is still well worthwhile having a go. I understand the irritation of MLAs and constituents who live along the border and cannot see the justification for having to pay the same price to post a letter to somewhere only a couple of miles away as it costs to post a letter to the Orkneys. However, that is, unfortunately, the way it is at the moment. <BR /> <BR />I will deal with the motion first. Rightly, it expresses concern about the current system. A letter going from North to South requires a European stamp costing 97p, which contrasts with a cost of 68 cents, currently about 55p, for the same letter going from the South to the North.”
“Sorry, I am not giving way. That is the information that I have been given. <BR /> <BR />Effectively, the proposal is for a shared solution in the short-to-medium term, because the two schools can operate on split sites with a joint board. I suggest that, if they are to proceed with that, the joint board might do well to have an independent chairperson. For now, however, we are not content to support a motion that demands that the Minister refuse this development proposal. We think that it has to be a ministerial decision, and I hope that he makes the right decision. To us, the Sinn Féin amendment looks more sensible for the present. We support the Sinn Féin amendment and, if it does not pass, will oppose the main motion.”
“I thank the Member for that clarification. She said "as far as I am aware", and my information is that there is no sharing between the Collegiate Grammar and Portora Royal, but that is for another day.”
“Fermanagh is leading the way in shared education, but it does not seem to apply to these schools because, as far as I am aware — I am happy to be corrected — there is no class-sharing element between Portora and the Collegiate or between the Collegiate and Devenish.”
“Frankly, that just does not stack up in the real world, nor does the argument that a small school is better than a big school. The bigger grammars across Northern Ireland fare very well in any statistics that you look at, as do co-educational schools. <BR /> <BR />We are talking about the two smallest grammar schools in Northern Ireland. They both have fewer than 500 pupils. If they remain separate, it seems unlikely that they will be able to deliver the full curriculum when the entitlement framework kicks in next year. That will be a legal requirement, so I really do not know what they will do. One Member mentioned the fact that Portora had over 20 classes with fewer than eight pupils. That is not a sustainable position. The normal solution at the present time, which is very much in vogue, is a shared education scenario.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am sorry about that. <BR /> <BR />There is a big debate going on. I have never had so much correspondence on an issue since I joined the Committee. I must say that I have some sympathy for the Fermanagh Members who have to wrestle with this, because it is a difficult one for them. <BR /> <BR />On the question of whether girls do better if they are educated in a girls-only school, I see statistics that indicate that that may well be the case; I see other statistics that indicate that it is not the case. There is another question because of the size of these two schools: is big better, or is small better? The folk from the Collegiate have very eloquently described how they think their results are terrific because it is a relatively small grammar school restricted to a female intake.”
“Dungannon is a bit of a distance from Enniskillen.”
“That raises this question: what does the parent of a young girl in Enniskillen do if they would prefer that young girl to be educated on a co-educational basis? There is not that facility. It actually applies in reverse.”
“Mr Elliott has summed up quite well the problems around a proposal like this, particularly in Fermanagh. His last comment that we have been at this for 10 years indicates to me that the possibility of consensus on the issue is probably fairly slim. It really requires a decision to be eventually taken that is the best decision for the young children of Fermanagh and provides the best educational outcome for those children. What that would be is the question. <BR /> <BR />The motion has certainly produced a different debate from what we normally have around education in this place, because it does not mention religion or selection. We are talking about a brand new voluntary grammar versus the continuation of single-sex education on two sites in Enniskillen.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. Any air routes achieved are always welcome, but does he agree that the ones that we have at the moment are inclined to take tourist money out of Northern Ireland rather than bringing investment in? Obviously it would be beneficial to the efforts of Invest NI to have direct routes from trade centres such as those mentioned in my original question.”
“I will finish with the petition of concern, Mr Speaker. It really does not matter a hoot, does it? It will not change the balance of votes in the House by one iota. Whatever the House thinks, it will vote. I really do not care that there is a petition of concern or otherwise.”