Trevor Lunn
Lagan Valley · Independent · Northern Ireland
“I know what I am going to do: I am not quite sure what he is going to do. <BR /> <BR />In discussion at the Committee, we had submissions from the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS) and the Catholic Schools' Trustee Service.”
“They are relaxed about this. I know that they have some concerns about the Catholic ethos of their schools, but I cannot believe that the admission of non-Catholic teachers into Catholic schools will change the ethos of those schools at all. There is more of an obligation on teachers coming in to accept that ethos and run with it.”
“All that I can say to that is that the women, mostly, and couples who go to an abortion clinic, advisory service, hospital or private hospital are also entitled to freedom of movement and freedom of action. They are entitled to that under the law that was brought in by the British Government.”
“. Not yet, anyway. We have had this Bill from Chris, two Bills from the Green Party, and I forget the others. It has been a good day and, as others have said — yes, Pat Catney, of course, my constituency colleague, as well — it indicates what the Assembly is capable of.”
“The other day, we talked about the Brook advisory clinic and all the shenanigans around it. Most people here are too young to remember that, but it was effectively the same issue. <BR /> <BR />We are where we are. I hope that the Bill will pass; I am sure that it will now, judging by the tenor of the House. It will be another step.”
“<BR /> <BR />Back in 2015, I decided to visit the Marie Stopes clinic. I wanted to find out exactly what it was about. That year, the police had been called to the front of the clinic 200 times.”
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“I will not go there. However, the group met twice, the second time with only three Ministers, and has not produced any outcomes whatsoever. The word that Mr Durkan used is perhaps appropriate. <BR /> <BR />I want to deal with the meat of the motion, but it is only in the last line that it calls for:”
“I am in enough trouble already, Mr Deputy Speaker.”
“There was a freedom of information request submitted looking for the minutes of the meeting that did take place. I have seen a picture of the meeting, but I have not seen any outcome or progress report. I think that I saw a reference to the fact that Mr Durkan could not be there, for perfectly sound reasons. How long does it take something such as that to be set up and produce some actions, ambitions or targets?”
“That is fair enough, but I think that the problems in north and west Belfast are every bit as bad as the problems in Fermanagh and along the border corridor — not the whole border corridor, but certain sections of it — and for different reasons, because the connectivity, transportation links, and so on, are better. That is part of the problem for the border areas. <BR /> <BR />I want to take up the question of the establishment of the ministerial subgroup on regional opportunities, because, as far as I can tell, and I think that Mr Dunne mentioned it, that body appears to have been established early this year — January is the date that I see — and met once. Somebody can correct me if I am wrong, but it has met once. It will soon be a year old.”
“Well, there we are. I will get back to the motion. It is a rambling kind of motion. I think that I am able to say that I will be the first to mention north and west Belfast. It is not a Fermanagh motion. It expresses concern at the:”
“To clarify, my understanding of what Mr Flanagan said was that the Minister who had been in post for about eight years was making those decisions.”
“In a minute. You might want to intervene again if I do not. <BR /> <BR />He also made a political argument. What he effectively said was that a Fermanagh MLA acting as Minister of Enterprise actually sought to divert jobs from Fermanagh to other areas for political reasons. I know that he has a fond relationship with Mrs Foster, but, really, that is outrageous. I am very surprised by that. If you want to intervene now, I will let you.”
“I must say that I did not expect the debate to be quite so feisty, but there we are. I want to start off by speaking about the way in which Mr Flanagan introduced the motion. He made the point that two thirds of Invest NI-produced jobs are east of the Bann. Although I acknowledge that I would like to see a more even distribution of those jobs, where does he think that the population, connectivity, and so on, are?”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. He talked about the will of the House. It was the will of the House in 2012 that the word "promote" should be included in the obligation to promote integrated education. I know that that was in a private Members' motion rather than legislation, but it was clearly the will of the House.”
“I thank the Minister for that comprehensive answer. It is quite a coincidence that he should launch the fund on the same day as I ask that question, but he has completely killed any opportunity for a supplementary question. Thank you very much.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Does he agree that the Bill provides a real opportunity for the grammar schools, which so many here support, as do I, to share some of their expertise and experience and demonstrate generosity and, perhaps, community responsibility by reaching out to other schools that are not quite so successful? That may be a problem as regards the criteria in the Bill on different sectors, but there is a real opportunity for a trickle-down experience and, as you said, to lift all boats.”
“Just for the record: one Catholic maintained primary school has attempted to become integrated recently, and it is being blocked by the Minister.”
“I thank Mr Newton for giving way. I hear what he says, but where we differ is the reason why the integrated sector has not set the world on fire. It is not because of the lack of parental demand or choice, it is because of what I referred to in my speech as the Department's reluctance down the years to entirely embrace the sector and the obligations that it has towards it. Again, for the record, I have tried to absolve the present Minister of that. The sector has not been given the opportunity to flourish; that is where the problem is.”
“I do not mind that it is a short Bill. This is the groundwork and first step, as others have said, towards something that will obviously have to be tweaked and amended along the way as we learn from it. I do think that it has merit, so I hope that you will forgive me, Members, for anything I have said that appears to cast doubt on the whole project because I am not intending to be entirely negative about this.”
“I thank the Member for that. He is not known for brevity himself, so he may learn something from it.”
“<BR /> <BR />Beyond that, we will have more to say about the Bill at Consideration Stage, and, I fancy, others will as well. The Bill is not perfect, but what Bill ever has been? It is mercifully short, so we should not have to agonise over it for months. Sometimes, things that are short and sweet are quite complicated, too, but let us see where we go with it.”
“You cannot fault what is going on there, as it is excellent. Even if you aspire to the concept that schools should be coming together as one rather than being separate and sharing, Limavady is an excellent example of what can be achieved. It is also happening in Londonderry, or Derry, and elsewhere. <BR /> <BR />I do not want to knock the Bill, but I continually wonder whether the needs and rights of the integrated sector are being honoured, and I would like to hear from the Minister about that. I could cite many examples from down the years of where integrated schools have been held back or turned down. I will make an exception in your case, Minister, because I believe that you have honestly done your best to respect the obligation during your tenure. Again, I could quote example of that happening.”
“If it does have that dramatic effect on our children, surely the natural consequence is to bring children together through a properly integrated system and not this constant reference to sharing. I hope that that is the way in which we go, and I hope that people come to realise that through the sharing projects. <BR /> <BR />Mr Flanagan paid tribute, as he would do, to what goes on in Fermanagh. Fermanagh is a terrific example of what can be achieved. Others mentioned Ballycastle High School and Cross and Passion College. We had a presentation from them, and they do excellent work. It is only a small point, but they told us that their sixth-form bash this year was a joint event for the first time. I do not know what consequences will flow from that, but it is great to see. <BR /> <BR />We have visited Limavady a couple of times.”
“That is quite important, because it indicates to me that "services" does not have to mean something strictly and directly connected to the curriculum. Mr Rogers mentioned a project on World War One and that kind of thing involving his old school, St Louis Grammar School, and a school in Taunton. That may not be on the curriculum, but it is absolutely vital. <BR /> <BR />I always come back to this point: what is the thrust of this? Is it meant to be educational benefit? That was my understanding of the original reason for shared education. It still has to be the basic reason for it, but is it also about some kind of belief that it will have a dramatic effect on our children?”
“I hope that we do not get to that stage, because it would make a nonsense of the whole project. <BR /> <BR />I will say something positive about the Bill. Clause 1(3)(b) refers to:”
“It was very interesting presentation on flexibility, which other Members have mentioned. The Chair mentioned the possibility of having some kind of Roman tribune or czar sitting at the top of all this making decisions about which projects will be acceptable and which will not. I am sure that we will not get to that point, but somebody presumably has to make decisions. I hope that there will be a lot of room for flexibility, because it worries me that projects could fall between the stools of "Protestant", "Catholic", "other", "socially deprived" and whatever other criteria come over the horizon. It would be a shame if good projects were not accepted or funded because they did not meet the specific criteria — not enough Catholics, Protestants or socially deprived children involved — even though they were very worthy projects.”
“That will be of interest to a school such as, let us say, Methody. I often refer to Methodist College. For the record again — Robin Newton, an old boy, is looking at me — the composition of Methodist College is roughly 45% Protestant, 25% Catholic and 30% other. What about the others? The others may be Protestants and Catholics who do not chose to define themselves in that way; genuine others who have no belief whatsoever; or, if they are from the immigrant population, they could be Muslim. There is a lot of diversity in our society these days. I would like to see something in there that refers to people who are not Protestant or Catholic. <BR /> <BR />Just last week, we had a presentation from the Department. I see Faustina and Andrew in the Officials' Box today.”
“I hope that, in the timescale that we are talking about, proper measuring devices can be arrived at to ensure that we can see an outcome, because the money will run out. I think that Mrs Overend said that the project is funded until 2018. Beyond that, it will be mainstreamed. Well, let us see in 2018 whether it is worthwhile mainstreaming it. The jury will certainly be out. <BR /> <BR />The Bill misses an opportunity to consolidate the relationship between shared and integrated education. That is something that we may come back to at Consideration Stage. <BR /> <BR />I will talk specifically about the wording in the Bill. The definition of "shared education" is the education together of:”
“In other words, there is an expectation, or perhaps a hope, that all this on shared education will lead to some integration and that schools will get to know each other and begin to realise that integrated education is not something to be feared but perhaps a natural consequence of what they are now embarking on. I hope that that is the case. In, I think, 35 years, the integrated sector has produced only roughly 7% penetration into the entire school population. We will just have to see where this all goes. <BR /> <BR />We talked about measurable outcomes, which are very important. It is not hard to measure the educational outcomes of a sharing programme. There is either improvement or there is not. I hope that there is. I guess that the socio-economic and social development outcomes will be a lot more difficult to measure.”
“Quite a lot of money has been set aside for this project. My understanding is that quite a lot of money is to be set aside for shared and integrated projects, particularly capital projects. I cannot escape the feeling that it is all directed at the shared education projects at the moment. "Shared" is the buzzword, and that is the direction of travel. That is what worries people who have spent well over 30 years now trying to bring children together through the medium of integrated education, despite the blockages, objections and all the reasons not to honour the Department's obligations in that respect, all of which have held back the development of the sector. Now, we are told that the integrated schools are at the top end of the continuum — that is the word being used — of shared education.”
“I thank the Chair for that. I was going to mention at some stage the use of the words "power", "duty" and "obligation". I am not sure which is the strongest; I fancy it is "obligation". Perhaps the Minister can clarify that. I also point out that the Minister has recently agreed to conduct a review of the integrated education sector. I look forward to hearing more detail from him on what he has in mind, because the sector would like that review to be independent and not conducted by the Department.”
“but only to "facilitate" and "encourage" integrated education. I happen to think that "promote" is a powerful word. If you look at the dictionary definition, you may find that it is the strongest of those three words.”
“I cannot help thinking that the definition that it has come up with is not perfect, and I am glad that I am not the only one to say that. <BR /> <BR />I enjoyed the Minister's opening remarks. That is not to say that I do not normally enjoy them, but I enjoyed them on this occasion because, for a start, they were mercifully brief, and, apart from that, the content was good to my ears, because, at the beginning of his comments, the Minister highlighted at some length the benefits of children being educated together. He actually could have been talking about the integrated sector. It would have been the same speech. I hope I heard him right on this, because it was quite encouraging to me, but he talked about the word "promote" and its inclusion in the Bill. There is now an obligation on the Department to:”
“First, I join others in wishing you well, Mr Speaker, as you attempt to complete the good work that you are involved in in this mandate and, obviously, beyond that, I wish you well for your retirement, whatever you decide to do. I am told that 70 is the new 50. I certainly hope it is, in my case, as well. Good luck to you. <BR /> <BR />I am going to speak in favour of the Bill. I am saying that at the outset, and I will say it at the end of my contribution because, in between, people might wonder what I meant by that. I am glad that other Members have expressed reservations in various forms about the quality, content and significance of the Bill. As somebody has said, it is a good starting point. It is worthwhile; it is an attempt by the Department to at least clarify what is meant by shared education.”
“It happened on Bloody Sunday, which, Mr Sheehan rightly said, need never have happened, had this been properly investigated. I want to continue to regard the army with pride, and it needs to cooperate if such an inquiry can be put together. The British Government, if needs be — I think they do — need to be able to man up and acknowledge that something went dreadfully wrong on this occasion. <BR /> <BR />I ask the House to support the motion. I ask the DUP and the Ulster Unionists, perhaps, not to oppose it. There is no loss of face in this; you have to acknowledge that something is wrong here. I will leave it at that, Mr Speaker.”
“There is the MoD, the RUC and the HET inquiry, which went nowhere. The Catholic Church has a major dossier on all of this. There are civilian witness statements, hospital records, autopsy records and the national archives in Kew and Dublin. I could go on, but I will make my main point before I finish. <BR /> <BR />It may surprise some people that I am standing here making this plea. I am sure that I am the only one wearing a poppy who is making this plea, but there is a reason for that: I want to be proud of our army. I wear this poppy with pride, and I wear it to commemorate and acknowledge the sacrifice that the army has made over the years in theatres of war. This was not a theatre of war. If the army has misbehaved in these circumstances, it needs to be able to acknowledge it.”
“It works, it is effective, and it does not have to interfere with the coronial process. In fact, the Hillsborough inquiry fed the coronial process. It was used as very useful evidence. <BR /> <BR />There are no, evidently anyway, national security issues here; there are no handlers or informers to protect. The MoD, as part of the coronial process, so far as it has gone, has said that it is having difficulty in tracing particular soldiers — any soldiers — who might have been on the ground on that day. I find it, frankly, absurd that ex-soldiers cannot be traced. They have not gone to ground; they are not hiding. They are receiving pensions from the Government, and the MoD says that it cannot trace them. That is ridiculous. <BR /> <BR />The range of available evidence is very wide.”
“He was doing some work to the Corpus Christi chapel in preparation for a funeral. He finished it and was walking away from the chapel when he was shot dead. He was shot in the head. This is not contested. It is in the records. <BR /> <BR />All this happened 44 years ago. It happened in the same month as I was married, two weeks later. The bereaved relatives have had to carry the weight of this grief for 44 years. While people like me and others of my generation have grown through the period and raised families and grandchildren, these people have had to live with the weight of this grief. We now have an opportunity to agree to try to get the British Government to agree to a particular sort of inquiry that is very cost-effective, as has been proved by the Hillsborough inquiry.”
“Danny Teggart, whose son John is with us today, was also shot on open ground. He was shot 13 times. The army operated under rules of engagement. Even then, they had to fire only at identified targets who were a threat to them personally; in other words, a petrol bomber or somebody with a gun. Yet all those people were shot over three days. <BR /> <BR />Members mentioned others. The case of Joseph Murphy is interesting. The allegation has been around for a long time that he was not only shot and wounded but abused back in the army barracks and that perhaps another bullet was put into him. I do not have the evidence for that, but there is evidence because his body has just been exhumed and there is, in fact, another bullet lodged in it. Maybe that is correct as well. John McKerr was mentioned as well. He was a carpenter.”
“<BR /> <BR />A gentleman called Frank Quinn tried to go to his aid, as others said. Mr Sheehan mentioned all the names, as did Ms McCorley. He was shot dead. All this happened — it is not contested — on open ground. If people were shooting at the army, they certainly were not shooting at them from an area of waste ground where they would have been completely exposed. It just does not sound right. No firearms were recovered from any of these people. There is no evidence of firearm residue on any of them. It is not me saying that or some republican source; it is the autopsy reports. That is the official version. Joan Connolly, a married woman of about 45, was shot at the same time. She was shot three times. She was shot, and, as she tried to recover and get back to her home or get help, she was shot again. This is not contested.”
“There was gunfire directed at the army, but there does not appear, on the face of it, to be any evidence that it came from any of the people who were shot. <BR /> <BR />You could look at some of the individual situations. I think that the first person to be shot was a gentleman called Bobby Clarke. He is still alive. He has made a statement and can make a further statement. He was the man whom Father Hugh Mullan went to comfort, anoint or give the last rites in the Catholic tradition. The evidence appears to be that Father Mullan was waving some sort of white cloth. He attended to Bobby Clarke. He went to get some further help, at which point he was shot. This is evidence taken from autopsy reports. He appears to have fallen to a kneeling position, at which point he was shot again and killed.”
“There was certainly gunfire from different sources — republican and loyalist — in the area, and the army was trying to control a very difficult situation as best it could. The real question is this: were any of the 11 people who were killed on the day or died of their wounds a few days later a threat to the army? That is the question.”
“It needs a team with the forensic skills of Phil Scraton and his team, which were demonstrated through the Hillsborough inquiry, to run some of it to earth and to try to establish the facts. Some of the facts are not contested. The evidence comes largely from such official sources as witness statements, soldier statements, autopsy reports and hospital reports. It is all there; it is available for any of you to look at. <BR /> <BR />On the dates in question, there was certainly a riotous situation in Ballymurphy and in areas across west and north Belfast and other parts of the country. It was the day following the night on which internment was brought in, and feelings were running high in those areas.”
“I thank everybody who has contributed today, including those who, evidently, will not agree with me, because we needed to hear from all sides in a debate like this. As others have done, I acknowledge the families, some of whom are with us today, for their dignity and persistence in the matter. <BR /> <BR />I do not see this as an occasion to vilify the army. It is tempting, and others have succumbed to the temptation. I want to talk about the call for a specific form of inquiry to deal with a particular circumstance involving state forces. It has a lot of merit. That sort of inquiry would be a review of the available evidence. There is a lot of it, and it comes from all sides.”
“The strength of inspections lies in the independence of the organisations that carry them out. The Minister's statement referred to the oversight group implementing the prison reform programme as having signed off 33 out of 40 recommendations as implemented. I ask the Minister: what confidence should we have in the independence of the oversight group?”
“Mr McGlone asked the question that I wanted to ask, but I will develop it slightly. Anecdotally, we hear that school inspections are, obviously, very stressful and that, when the inspection is concluded, the school is left with an impression of a result that is not finally recorded when the final report comes through. Is the Minister aware that hopes are raised and then dashed, effectively?”
“I thank Jonathan for giving way. When he says that it is a matter of parental choice, does he not realise that parents feel that they have no choice but to put their children under that pressure in order for them to get into what he terms the "best schools"? It is parental choice turned on its head.”
“I am finished. I imagine that we will support the motion on the basis of the last couple of lines. The rest of it is, I totally agree, a dog's dinner and mishmash.”
“I think that he may have had his knuckles rapped on that occasion.”
“It tried to find a way forward, and several MLAs met to discuss the issue. We set up a committee of leading educationalists, who did most of the work for us, but they could not find a solution. At the time, Sinn Féin would not join that project. The current Minister was then the party's education spokesperson, and I think that he had been inclined to join until the party told him the actual way of it.”
“The ongoing politicking is between the two opposite poles. Those at one pole think that selection tests are essential, and those at the other pole agree with me, as I agree with them, if I may put it that way, that they are unjustifiable. I have to say to the Ulster Unionists that, down the years, they have consistently supported the DUP on whether selection tests should continue. If the motion is a small step in the right direction, and there is some realisation among the Ulster Unionists that — here we go again — they might be on the wrong side of history, I would welcome that, but I am not so sure. <BR /> <BR />Mr Rogers referred to a previous attempt to find a solution. He may have been referring to the committee that was set up, dare I say it, by me some years ago.”
“Mrs Overend's predecessor was Danny Kinahan, who has since been elevated to higher things. I remember the Ulster Unionists tabling a motion to establish a single education system, and Danny frequently tried to explain to us exactly what that meant, but without success because we were all slightly baffled. This one-size-fits-all system will not work — well, OK. <BR /> <BR />The motion notes that sitting these tests is becoming "increasingly unacceptable" for "thousands of young people" and mentions the pressure, the "unregulated" nature of the tests and the pressure put on schools. That is Alliance thinking, so I will not disagree with that. <BR /> <BR />The motion continues:”
“The Dickson plan was referred to. It still involves a level of selection, but it is later, at age 14, which would at least be a step in the right direction. Other Members said that, at some stage, there has to be some weeding out, selection or streaming and a final exam that you stand or fall by, and I accept that. However, the notion of testing children, particularly in the present mishmash of a system that has the potential to involve so many tests and two different systems, is absolutely indefensible, yet people continue to defend it as the best way forward. <BR /> <BR />The motion:”
“Frankly, you can already see how much consensus there is here today; it just does not exist. We have two sides to the argument that are just poles apart and are liable to remain so. <BR /> <BR />Members have referred to the tests as they currently stand. Even people who support the tests acknowledge the pressure that they put on children at a young age but they do not appear to be able to query the necessity for them.”
“They were not my descriptions; they came from your colleagues and from the Benches on this side as well. If I can think of something equally colourful, I will try to bring it in before I finish. <BR /> <BR />The Alliance Party, quite obviously, opposes selection at age 10 — effectively, it is at age 10. Our debates on education always end up as the same debate. We always come back to this issue and I really do not know what the solution is. The motion:”