Trevor Lunn
Lagan Valley · Independent · Northern Ireland
“I know what I am going to do: I am not quite sure what he is going to do. <BR /> <BR />In discussion at the Committee, we had submissions from the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS) and the Catholic Schools' Trustee Service.”
“They are relaxed about this. I know that they have some concerns about the Catholic ethos of their schools, but I cannot believe that the admission of non-Catholic teachers into Catholic schools will change the ethos of those schools at all. There is more of an obligation on teachers coming in to accept that ethos and run with it.”
“All that I can say to that is that the women, mostly, and couples who go to an abortion clinic, advisory service, hospital or private hospital are also entitled to freedom of movement and freedom of action. They are entitled to that under the law that was brought in by the British Government.”
“. Not yet, anyway. We have had this Bill from Chris, two Bills from the Green Party, and I forget the others. It has been a good day and, as others have said — yes, Pat Catney, of course, my constituency colleague, as well — it indicates what the Assembly is capable of.”
“The other day, we talked about the Brook advisory clinic and all the shenanigans around it. Most people here are too young to remember that, but it was effectively the same issue. <BR /> <BR />We are where we are. I hope that the Bill will pass; I am sure that it will now, judging by the tenor of the House. It will be another step.”
“<BR /> <BR />Back in 2015, I decided to visit the Marie Stopes clinic. I wanted to find out exactly what it was about. That year, the police had been called to the front of the clinic 200 times.”
The complete record
Every one of 1,110 lines we hold for Trevor Lunn, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 17 of 23.
“If this legislation were to go through in its present format, they might decide to check the ages, identities and relationships of the three or four people in the car. They might find that one of them transgresses the regulations by a couple of months. Possibly, the driver has quite innocently accepted information and thought that this person had had a licence for three years or that they were 21 rather than 20, and so it goes on.”
“I am quite sure that all the statistics that were quoted, either by me or Mr Attwood — he is not listening — probably include joyriders. They are bound to. <BR /> <BR />I will go back to the way that the police handle this. I am looking at the wording: the police have powers to ask the driver or passengers for their "names, addresses, ages and relationship". You have to produce that within seven days. Failure to produce this information will be an offence, and the person will be liable to a fine of up to £1,000 and three penalty points. Let me take another angle. If the police pull somebody in because they are speeding, and it turns out to be a young person, on the back of that, they will normally have a look around the car.”
“<BR /> <BR />The whole concept of the age restriction really bothers me. I cannot help wondering who will police this, and the answer is easy: the PSNI. How will the PSNI police it? The only time that our overstretched police will pull in a young driver is when they think that he has caused an offence or perhaps had an accident. The police do not have the resources or the time — I am sure that they will not have the inclination — to see a car with three people in it and say, "We had better pull that car over. He is not going too fast and is driving perfectly normally, but the person sitting beside him does not look like they have had their licence for three years". It is actually ridiculous.”
“<BR /> <BR />I want to talk about some of the detail. Mr Wilson has stolen most of my thunder on the "relevant accompanying" driver. Presumably, the three years' full licence has to be a clean licence, but it does not say so in the Bill. As you rightly say, it could involve convictions without the loss of a licence. It occurs to me is that it could be two years on an R-plate and one year of full driving. It could also be three years after you have passed your test, without ever having driven a car. Not everybody has a car. Who has the experience? Is it the 22-year-old who is into his six months' restriction having passed his test, or is it his accompanying driver, who may, as you rightly say, be 21 and not have driven a car since he passed his test? He has to sit in the front seat and give this driver advice or keep him in check.”
“In fact, there was always an assumption in the insurance industry that just about every young driver would have a touch at least, whether it was a very serious or relatively minor accident. It is really in the lap of the gods, because the same conditions could produce a smashed-in front end or leave a couple of people dead. A certain amount of luck is involved. <BR /> <BR />I understand from what I have been hearing that the Minister is prepared to have another good look at clause 20 over the summer. If that is the case, we will not do what we were inclined to, which was to oppose it. Mr Wilson said that that might be the simplest thing to do, and, in a way, it would: it would be clean, and we could start over. I do not think that we need to, provided the Minister, when he sums up, gives us a reasonable assurance about that.”
“<BR /> <BR />The worst accident involving young people that I ever came across happened out at Templepatrick. Four were killed, two of them from my church. I remember it very well. They were at the tech and were out at lunchtime, at 1.30 pm — not in the middle of the night. They were just speeding. It was dreadful. <BR /> <BR />I think that I tidied up the statistic for Ian — 11% of young drivers cause 44% of fatalities, which tallies with what Mr Attwood said. There is another statistic worth mentioning. In England, per 100,000 of population, there are 304 collisions that cause injury a year. That is the last available statistic. In Northern Ireland, the figure is 502. If you extrapolate 44% and set it against that figure, you see that there are an awful lot of accidents involving young people.”
“It was a Morris Minor. <BR /> <BR />Mr Wilson advised against imposing too many restrictions, particularly restrictions that will not have any effect. The big restriction during my time was the imposition of R plates. I am not quite sure when that was, but it was a big thing at the time. Did it stop the carnage on our roads? I have a feeling that it did not. The things that actually made a difference were the advent of things like 0% finance and no-deposit deals on an Opel Corsa, or perhaps free insurance, which some of my colleagues in the insurance industry must surely regret now. All made it easier for young people, in particular, to get a car without a deposit and without much commitment. A small car in those days would do 100 mph quite easily.”
“I will just echo a few points made so far. Mr Wilson referred to the fact that passing the driving test is a landmark in a young person's life, and I could not agree more. There are various highlights in life around that time, but I can well remember doing my test in my father's car down in Belfast. He drove me back to Dunmurry after I passed the test at the first attempt and then threw me the keys, saying, "Go off on your own", and I had the pleasure of overtaking someone on Dunmurry Lane. These were highlights.”
“I thank Mr Attwood for giving way. It gives me the opportunity to correct the statistic I gave earlier. The 11% of young drivers who cause 44% of the accidents is a DOE statistic — and Mr Greenway can stop glaring at me now because I have corrected it. The one about the 19% and the Association of British Insurers I do not recognise at all.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I wanted to thank him for the compliment. He will probably agree that the message from the insurance companies was quite simple: if the claims costs came down in Northern Ireland for a particular group, including age groups, the premiums would also come down. I will give you one statistic to remind you, Mr Maginness. Young drivers here have 11% of the licences, and they are responsible for 44% of the fatal accidents. Those are the last statistics available from the Association of British Insurers (ABI).”
“This legislation is already a fine balance between respect for the individual and working for the common good of all. The Bill provides for oversight structures and safeguard measures to be put in place. Given the uncertainty and ambiguity of the current loose legal framework, the Bill should work in the interests of all by ensuring that there will be a clearly understood, balanced framework in place for decision-making. We therefore support the further passage of the Bill, but we look forward to the Minister's reaction to the points that have been raised by other Members on all sides of the House.”
“The Bill recognises that, in certain circumstances, the use of anonymised individual data is not sufficient, particularly when there are advantages to be gained from intersection with genetics.”
“<BR /> <BR />In that regard, we can take comfort from the fact that the privacy advisory committee that advises the Department on such matters appears to understand the logic of the Bill and sees the bigger picture. We must also recognise that, without the legislation, Northern Ireland would be out of step with other jurisdictions, and, indeed, our researchers and practitioners would be hindered from engaging and collaborating effectively with their counterparts. It is also clear that the legislation will benefit bodies such as the Northern Ireland Cancer Registry, which is located at Queen's and has done great work to understand the frequency, diagnosis and treatment of cancer. Without the legislation, its work would be hindered.”
“As other Members have said, the current basis around a public interest test appears to be ambiguous and risky. There is a difference in consent between that for direct care and the disclosure for improving the general functioning of health and social services. The Bill is seeking to address the latter point only if it is impossible or impractical. Anonymised data would not achieve the desired outcome, and, most crucially, a committee or body established for that purpose must authorise the processing. I appreciate that many people will have concerns about such use of individual data, but that is why it is so important that sufficient safeguards be put in place.”
“<BR />The Bill provides a proper, ethical framework for the use of confidential data in the wider public interest and for the wider public good. That extends most notably to research and development efforts that are seeking to discover more effective treatments and cures for a wide range of conditions, many of which are life-limiting or life-threatening. Members have spoken in the past about the quality of the research base in life sciences in Northern Ireland and paid tribute to the many discoveries and contributions that have made a real difference to healthcare and people's lives. <BR /> <BR />The sharing of individualised data exists in an uncertain state in Northern Ireland. Its legality is shaped by the provisions of the Human Rights Act, the Data Protection Act and the common law on confidentiality.”
“I support the Second Stage of the Bill. Kieran McCarthy would normally be speaking for the party, but he is absent today owing to family matters. I am not a Health Committee member, and it is fair to say that I am not 100% familiar with all the issues raised by other Members. <BR /> <BR />The Bill has the potential to be an important tool in helping us to better understand the nature of the health challenges facing our society and, consequently, helping us tailor solutions more efficiently and effectively. The Alliance Party believes that it is a good and necessary Bill. It is quite clear from comments from Members that there are a lot of issues with it, but those can be addressed through the Committee's scrutiny and at Consideration Stage and Further Consideration Stage.”
“I thank the Minister for his statement. Was there any mention of welfare reform in the margins of the conference? Did the Scottish or Welsh Ministers offer any comfort regarding our ability to obtain further concessions from the British Government?”
“If we do not agree welfare reform, and if that causes the collapse of these institutions, would she still expect the British Government to honour the agreements made at Stormont House during the negotiations — on the past, of course?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. Does he agree with me that, in the absence of political agreement to establish mechanisms for the regulation of parades, all parties and political leaders should encourage people to abide by Parades Commission decisions whether they agree with them or not, thereby upholding the law?”
“I thank the Member for giving way at this late hour. Would he agree with me that it actually suits the DUP's argument far better not to have Marie Stopes regulated? It gives them, from their perception, a better chance of getting rid of the operation.”
“The Member is constantly making the point — and I thank him for giving way — that Marie Stopes is unregulated, but does not make the point that it is possible for them to be regulated. Why is he not querying the fact that there is no regulation of that sort of establishment?”
“I thank Mr Poots for giving way. Whose fault is it that we cannot see what is going on behind those doors? That is the point. <BR /> <BR />I do not want to waste the Assembly's time after 11.00 pm by giving a personal testimony about being pro-choice, but it is possible to be pro-choice in a limited way. Without going into it in huge detail, I can only say that I do not advocate the introduction of the English legislation in Northern Ireland, certainly not in its present form, but there are circumstances, such as fatal foetal abnormality, which we will probably come to shortly, and other types of pregnancies where, frankly, it just seems the humane thing to do. I respect the views opposite. I ask you to respect mine as well.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I am sorry to ask him to backtrack, but he said that there is no compelling evidence that private clinics are necessary in Northern Ireland. Does that apply to the whole range of medical services or is he just talking about abortion services?”
“That really is up to them. It does nothing to clarify a confused situation. Its intention is to increase the difficulties that are already experienced by a vulnerable section of society. I am in no doubt about my decision to oppose it, and, in a one-off situation, which I hope never to repeat, sign a petition of concern to ensure that it is stopped. I will leave it there, Mr Speaker.”
“Marie Stopes provides a vital and useful service in an area where Northern Ireland lags behind the rest of the UK and beyond. We operate here under antiquated legislation in an atmosphere of uncertainty and fear amongst the medical profession. The result is an endless stream of distressed pregnant women going out of the jurisdiction, beyond the reach of our outdated laws to avail themselves of what is readily available to all other citizens of the United Kingdom. It really is time for us to move into the 21st century, recognise reality and begin to legislate properly in this area. It is now over two years since a previous Health Minister promised guidelines for the medical profession. We still wait for them, as others have mentioned. <BR /> <BR />The amendment, thankfully, has no future. The proposers could do worse than not move it.”
“We need a regime to be in place that compels it do exactly that, and the same goes for any other private facility in Northern Ireland. There is such a thing as the Ulster Clinic as well. Are you telling me that it does not reveal what goes on behind its front doors either? That is a nonsense argument. Marie Stopes is prepared to be regulated. It is up to the authorities, given that invitation and the strength of feeling around this Chamber and beyond, to put something in place to regulate it. That is an example of legislation that would be useful.”
“Hold on a minute. <BR /> <BR />As regards what goes on behind their closed doors, regulation and a proper regime of inspection would take care of that quite easily. If it is not in place at the moment, perhaps it should be.”
“The fact remains that Marie Stopes is quite prepared to be regulated by whatever means the authorities choose to impose.”
“I thank Mr Wells for that. He seems to be making the point that RQIA has no real role to play, which I find astonishing. It is supposed to be the regulatory authority for these types of premises in Northern Ireland. If it —”
“Many mothers in this country and beyond prefer private practice. There is payment involved. Where does that lead? <BR /> <BR />Mr Speaker, I could go on, but the hour is late, so I will not outline any more potential flaws that I see in the amendment. Frankly, I see the amendment as another barely disguised attempt to curtail and, ultimately, to end the operation of the Marie Stopes clinic in Northern Ireland. Marie Stopes operates within the law. If any of its critics have evidence to the contrary, they should use the procedures in place to bring it forward. Marie Stopes has asked to be brought under the regulation of RQIA, an offer that has not been taken up by the authorities. I have not followed the issue closely enough to understand why that should be but, you know, if Marie Stopes is prepared to be regulated —”
“<BR /> <BR />Amendment No 34 also allows as a defence from prosecution that the act was:”
“Where does such an act begin and end? Never mind causing or permitting, does the mother of a young pregnant girl, who cooperates with her daughter in arranging a termination, fall foul of the law by permitting the termination if the daughter is under the age of consent? Does a clinic that dispenses the morning-after pill or performs a medical termination in the early weeks of a pregnancy on the grounds of possible mental or physical damage to the mother run the risk of pers — I nearly said persecution — prosecution for causing an act to be carried out beyond the confines of a health trust venue? Will a doctor be challenged for proceeding to end a pregnancy, as a matter of extreme urgency, in a private facility on the grounds that a slot may have been available in a health service hospital?”
“<BR /> <BR />The amendment goes on to make the same threat of imprisonment and fines to any person who:”
“<BR /> <BR />Are the proposers really serious in threatening expert and experienced medical professionals with a jail term for exercising their professional judgement in a life-threatening situation? Is it a realistic proposition to insist that if a termination is vital to the physical or mental well-being of a mother, it must be carried out in health and social care trust premises unless access is not possible? Even if I had the slightest sympathy for the proposition, the wording should refer to what is reasonably practical and not to what is possible. What does this say about the quality of service and the professional ability of the qualified physicians in our private clinics, where, incidentally, as has been pointed out, the law applies equally and always has done?”
“I cannot justify insisting that women should be forced to carry babies to full term in the various unfortunate scenarios that are sometimes brought about by pregnancy. The mother's right to choose should be sacrosanct, and I am uncomfortable with the notion that an Assembly dominated by men should dictate in these matters. <BR /> <BR />On the specifics of the amendment, it does seem incredible that our abortion law relies on legislation passed in 1861 and 1945 — 150 years ago and 70 years ago respectively — and has not changed materially since. The amendment upholds the principles of those Acts in its first line and brings in the threat of up to 10 years' imprisonment or an unspecified fine.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Members who sit with me in the Assembly and Executive Review Committee will be entitled to a quiet smile at that development, given my often expressed distaste for this mechanism; and I see some of them smiling. It was necessary in this case to prevent bad law from being passed. For the record, it is only the second time since 2007 that Alliance has taken this action. I could compare that to the 91 times that unionists, or the 33 times that nationalists, have employed it since 2007. <BR /> <BR />Alliance allows us a free vote on matters to do with abortion. The last time this came before the House, we opposed the amendment unanimously, and I expect the same result this time, as the proposal causes equal concern to those of us who are pro-choice and pro-life. I will say at this point that my personal stance is pro-choice.”
“I rise to oppose amendment No 34, but otherwise support the amendments in this group. This will be the first time that I have been able to contribute to an ongoing abortion debate. I accept entirely Mr Maginness's premise that this is more of a regulation debate, but the two things are inextricably linked. Most certainly, we should not be discussing the issue on the basis of an amendment to a Justice Bill involving an alteration to the criminal law. Notwithstanding the fact that the amendment, as it was two years ago, is poorly drafted and defined and has no place in this legislation. That is why I, for the first time, have put my name to a petition of concern to block the amendment.”
“The Minister has, rightly, highlighted twice that over 99% of applications for preschool places this year have been satisfied. Does he have any concerns about the balance between the statutory and non-statutory sectors and in the long term, perhaps, the need, as funds allow, to redress that balance in favour of the statutory sector?”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. Does she agree that, perhaps, in retrospect, we might have been better to have gone ahead with a super-stadium at the Maze and avoided all this nonsense?”
“Thank you for giving way. You seem to be accepting that there may be some shortcomings in the needs model, but can you provide an example of when integrated sector totals have been adjusted to recognise growth beyond that suggested solely through population change? Maybe Ulidia is one.”
“I thank Mr Wilson for giving way. Does he not accept that the decision to increase the enrolment at — presumably — Ulidia Integrated College is based on parental demand and parental choice?”
“Going back to the needs model, does the Member agree with me that the Committee noted that no examples had been provided of changes to needs model projections for the integrated sector based on parental demand?”
“Frankly, I propose an independent review — something similar to the Donaldson review of health — with nobody with a vested interest having an input. Let us see what would come out of that.”
“I would not want to cross swords with the Minister, because we do not agree on this, but he will probably correct me in due course. The needs model militates against the integrated sector. There is no doubt about that. I accept the Minister's acceptance of his obligation to facilitate and encourage the integrated sector, but the needs model effectively gives him a let-out, because it means that the other sectors have to agree before there is any increase, or potential increase, in the capacity target for integrated schools. So, let us see where we go with that. <BR /> <BR />I see that my time is nearly finished. All that the area plans, as they stand, have done so far is produce a lot of anxiety and worry amongst schools, parents and pupils. So, we have to get on with this.”
“I notice that every primary school in County Fermanagh that was identified as being under stress, or, in other words, under threat of closure, is now involved in a sharing solution. That is how it should be while we make up our minds about what to do about the overall situation. <BR /> <BR />Others mentioned the requirement to explore opportunities for cross-border planning. As far as I am aware, there has not been any of that. Mr Rogers referred obliquely to the situation in Brollagh in Fermanagh, where there may be a solution, but is that being actively explored? Are opportunities being taken along both sides of the border to explore the obvious opportunities that arise for minority communities? I do not know. Maybe the Minister can tell us. <BR /> <BR />I will go back to the needs model.”
“It did not say "within sectors"; it said, "within reasonable travelling distance". How can you possibly do that without the consideration of cross-sectoral solutions, where appropriate? <BR /> <BR />Another feature was to identify realistic, innovative and creative solutions to address need, including opportunities for shared schooling on a cross-sectoral basis. Frankly, how does shared schooling help the situation if you have too many schools? It merely prolongs the agony; it does not help the process that we are supposed to be about. That is not to say that shared schooling does not have its place. There is big momentum, at the moment, towards a shared solution.”
“It is vital that we get area planning right and that we get it right as quickly as possible. We have already spent four years, and more, on it, and we have had the viability audits, which produced the figures that Ms McLaughlin referred to. Eighty-four per cent of secondary schools are in some sort of stress, according to the criterion used. We have also had the area planning coordination group, which was subsequently replaced by the area planning steering group. If there is some difference between those two, I would like to know what it is. All of that has led to what Members have referred to as the needs model, which is addressed in our recommendation 4. <BR /> <BR />I will highlight one or two features of the original process. The first requirement was to ensure a network of sustainable schools within reasonable travelling distance.”
“The process of area planning, I am sure, has been going on for much longer than the formal process that we have been involved in since September 2011. That is when the Minister commissioned the boards and CCMS to work together to produce a way forward for area planning. Mrs Overend politely suggested that, perhaps, that did not work too well in the case of CCMS. I will go further and say that it did not work at all in the case of CCMS because it has proceeded in its own sweet way for the last four years to plan its own estate. There has been no evidence of any serious input from CCMS by way of a rational, overall, unbiased view of the system that we have. <BR /> <BR />The Chairman said that there was good value in area planning. Again, that is putting it mildly.”
“It is there to build on; the potential is there. We can see from what we have achieved what potential there is. <BR /> <BR />I agree with the terms in the motion that we should prepare a fully detailed report and take this up with the Treasury as quickly as possible. We may do the whole UK a favour by driving the issue from Northern Ireland, so I happily support the motion.”
“<BR /> <BR />Evidence from across the Republic and beyond suggests that, while there is a natural initial reduction in the overall tax take, in the long term, benefits flow to the economy, with trade up, new businesses opening, jobs created and other tax revenues rising. Independent research using the Treasury's own model has shown that a VAT cut could have massive benefits by driving the economy across the UK, perhaps by up to £4 billion. <BR /> <BR />It is essential for us to have a vibrant and healthy hospitality sector. It is one of our most important industries. The more visitors we can attract, the better, and we have had such success. I compliment the Finance Minister for achieving some of that success during her previous ministerial existence in the last few years, including the Giro d'Italia and all the rest of it.”