Trevor Lunn
Lagan Valley · Independent · Northern Ireland
“I know what I am going to do: I am not quite sure what he is going to do. <BR /> <BR />In discussion at the Committee, we had submissions from the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS) and the Catholic Schools' Trustee Service.”
“They are relaxed about this. I know that they have some concerns about the Catholic ethos of their schools, but I cannot believe that the admission of non-Catholic teachers into Catholic schools will change the ethos of those schools at all. There is more of an obligation on teachers coming in to accept that ethos and run with it.”
“All that I can say to that is that the women, mostly, and couples who go to an abortion clinic, advisory service, hospital or private hospital are also entitled to freedom of movement and freedom of action. They are entitled to that under the law that was brought in by the British Government.”
“. Not yet, anyway. We have had this Bill from Chris, two Bills from the Green Party, and I forget the others. It has been a good day and, as others have said — yes, Pat Catney, of course, my constituency colleague, as well — it indicates what the Assembly is capable of.”
“The other day, we talked about the Brook advisory clinic and all the shenanigans around it. Most people here are too young to remember that, but it was effectively the same issue. <BR /> <BR />We are where we are. I hope that the Bill will pass; I am sure that it will now, judging by the tenor of the House. It will be another step.”
“<BR /> <BR />Back in 2015, I decided to visit the Marie Stopes clinic. I wanted to find out exactly what it was about. That year, the police had been called to the front of the clinic 200 times.”
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“This is really a test of the Assembly's will. It is OK at a Bill's Second Stage because everybody says, "Yeah, we'll give it a fair wind", but it is when we get to the next couple of stages that we will really see what will happen. I cannot help thinking today that the elephant in the room is the absence of the DUP, because we do not know —. Sorry, Paula, I do not mean to refer to you in that way. The DUP is not here, so we will not know what its thinking is until perhaps some future stage. <BR /> <BR />Any Bill that wants to get rid of community designations or end the iniquitous system of petitions of concern and move to a weighted majority will not get much opposition from the Alliance Party because we are totally with you on that.”
“We welcome the Bill as far as it goes in its present form. It is like any other Bill; it is going to need some attention. I have a feeling that it may get more attention from particular directions than a Bill might normally expect to get, but we will see where it goes. Mr McCallister deserves congratulations as the person who finally brought this before the House, and not before time. He was good enough to consult other parties, including us, so we have some background as to what his thinking is. I also congratulate him on his presentation of the Bill today, which was excellent.”
“Maybe the Member can advise me of the situation in the Republic. Do they have a different approach?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Did the Committee or the Member have the same reservations about the reference to partnerships and the fact that the account would have to be held in the name of one partner? It is really the same thing.”
“So it is quite a good day, and everybody agrees.”
“By way of a caveat, it also means that there could be a considerable withdrawal of money in unexpected situations; there are always two sides. <BR /> <BR />That is really all that I wanted to say about the Bill, but I will repeat what I have said previously about credit unions: the more they imitate banks, the more they will become like banks and they will be susceptible to the risks that banks have fallen foul of over the years. I really hope that they can operate within this new regime and within the increasing regulations that they have now from the Financial Conduct Authority (FCA), and that they continue to do the excellent work that they have done for over 50 years in Northern Ireland. Beyond that, we have no problems. I have spoken to the Irish League of Credit Unions, which does not appear to have any problem with the legislation.”
“Well, society is moving that way, is it not? It will not be long before 16-year-olds can vote for us — or not, according to their leanings. I see no reason why your average 16-year-old should not now be allowed to be an investor in a registered society, or even an office-bearer. I think that that is a forward step. <BR /> <BR />Clause 10 amends the £20,000 limit on withdrawable shares and replaces it with a new maximum of £100,000. I think that the Minister said that this limit dates from 1991, which is 24 years ago. I do not know what inflation has been over those 24 years, but I imagine that the £100,000 now proposed is not a lot different to what £20,000 was then. It will certainly improve the scope and the range of what the credit union can offer.”
“That is not the case, as I think Mr Cochrane-Watson said, with a bank account, so why impose it on a credit union? There is a possibility that it could introduce an element of risk to the association involved, having to rely on the judgement of one member in its dealings with the credit union. I think that you said that there is not much tinkering required here, but maybe there is a need for a small tinker there. However, we will see. <BR /> <BR />I like the look of clause 3, which deals with interest-bearing shares. Well, why not? It is a good, forward-looking step. Clause 6, as I read it, means that the figure of 3% that the dividend previously had to reach before surplus funds could be offered for community purposes is being done away with. That is fine, as far as it goes. Clause 9 deals with members who are under the age of 18.”
“He also said that it would give credit unions more operational flexibility without moving away from their mutual and community-bound roots: I think that that was the wording that he used. That is absolutely correct, and that is how it should be. I think that, at all times, the movement needs to remember where it came from and not turn into any kind of risk-taking organisation. If you want an example of what can go horribly wrong, even in this country, just think of the Presbyterian Mutual Society (PMS) and what happened there. <BR /> <BR />I have the same reservations about clause 1 as those mentioned by the Chairman of the Committee, in that an unincorporated association had to be represented as a member of the credit union by an individual member of that association. I do not follow the rationale for that.”
“There has never been a failure. They have operated a simple model of investment and lending that has been sound and, while financial institutions have collapsed all around them, they have steered a steady course through the whole thing and are much to be admired. <BR /> <BR />I remember saying a couple of years ago, when the FSA took over control of regulation of credit unions, that they should be careful what they wish for because they might find that the FSA operates with a very heavy hand. I think that that has been the case in some ways, but I do not see much in this particular legislation that needs to concern the movement or us. <BR /> <BR />The Minister said in his introduction that this was the latest step in updating the regulations. That is fine.”
“I rise, not as a member of this Committee as usual, so it is with one hand tied behind my back; not for the first time, but it does not matter. I am a considerable admirer of the credit union movement. I always have been. It has stayed true to its roots down the years. I think that it is 55 years now since it was established up here.”
“In relation to Mr McCrea's original question, I accept that the deputy First Minister may not recognise the figures that he quoted, but it is fair to point out that his Department uses the life and times survey for its good relations indicators. <BR /> <BR />Does he agree that all this leaves the police in an impossible situation in trying to enforce whatever regulation or law there is and that the early imposition of a regulatory regime might be the way forward rather than endless thematic discussions and commissions?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Mr Maginness said that the Lord Chief Justice is about to take over the presidency of the Coroners' Court. In fact, he has declined to take over the presidency in the meantime, because he is not satisfied that there is sufficient political will to move things forward.”
“I refer him to the various polls and tests of attitude that have taken place down the years from time immemorial, particularly in the 'Belfast Telegraph'. The figures are well known.”
“I do not often thank Mr McCrea. <BR /> <BR />I believe that the Minister has tacitly agreed — perhaps he can confirm it today — that he is prepared to undertake a strategic review of the integrated model and sector. That would be very welcome and is very much overdue, because there are questions to ask about how the integrated sector has been facilitated and encouraged. We cannot use the word "promoted" because the Assembly turned that down, but they applied it to shared education. I think that a proper review of his Department's actions and attitudes down the years, long before he came along, and of whether it has tried to stifle or encourage the integrated sector, might come up with some interesting answers.”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, this is a two-hour debate, and I really wish that I had 20 minutes instead of five, but I can see what the clock is doing, so, unless somebody intervenes quickly —”
“There is definitely something to be looked at there, because the reason why people do not designate a religious background is because, frankly, in this day and age, so many of them do not have one. That is the problem.”
“It is an absolutely unreal situation and only in Northern Ireland could we have come up with such a solution. I hope it is not too late and that it might be reconsidered. It just defies belief; it is emphasising separation. <BR /> <BR />What is it about integration that scares people? Two learned professors came to the Committee, Professor Knox and Professor Borooah, and indicated that they thought the results coming out of integrated schools were not as good as equivalent schools in other sectors. Complete nonsense. No harm to the two professors, but it is absolute nonsense. There is a variation in attainment levels, but there is a variation in attainment levels across all our sectors. There is nothing unusual about the integrated model. <BR /> <BR />The Chairman mentioned the designation of religious background.”
“I think that it was Maeve McLaughlin who said that integrated education is seen by some as the end point or ambition of shared education programmes. If that were the case, I would welcome it, but I do not see it. I do not see why, in the right circumstances, we should not bypass the shared programme and go straight for an integrated solution if that is the best way forward. <BR /> <BR />Inevitably, I have to mention the situation in the Moy, where two small schools were convinced of the need to come together. But what have we done? The Department's plan is to build a new school to encompass two schools. We will have two schools under one roof, with separate uniforms and separate assemblies just to make sure that they do not, what, contaminate each other?”
“I cannot help but think that, five or 10 years down the line, we will not be any further on. In his evidence, Sir Bob Salisbury indicated that he would like to see a proper measurement, particularly of curriculum delivery, but also of societal benefit of these programmes at various stages. I think that would be interesting, because there is not much evidence, if any, that there is a measurable societal benefit from the shared education programmes that have been running so far. But time will tell. <BR /> <BR />The whole thing has been quite heavily slanted towards shared education; maybe that was inevitable. I wonder what it is about the integrated model and sector that seems to terrify people and make them think that this is not the way to go.”
“Schools have been sharing with the intention of delivering the curriculum and making it easier to run small classes since long before this initiative ever saw the light of day. I fancy that this initiative — that is what I see it as — might be relatively long-term, but where will we be at the end of it, when the money runs out? There are massive amounts available for shared education programmes at the moment, although some of us think that even they have been set up in a most peculiar way in terms of who is eligible and who is not.”
“When I suggested this review, I did not expect it to go on quite so long or that it would gobble up the time of three Chairpersons. Everyone on the Committee contributed very well to the report, even those who clearly do not agree with me on certain issues. We have always managed to conduct our deliberations in a thoughtful and constructive way, and I thank the present Chair for continuing that approach. <BR /> <BR />What are the conclusions of the report? The report leans heavily in the direction of shared education. This is the current buzzword. To a lot of people, it seems to be the way forward and the answer to most of our problems in the education system. <BR /> <BR />One or two people mentioned curriculum delivery. I have no argument there; that is fine.”
“I thank Mr Rogers for giving way. This is a report on shared and integrated education, and you have now mentioned shared education about 35 times. When are you going to get to integrated education, or do you not intend to comment?”
“My party colleague is pointing up the difference of opinion within one of the parties to my left, which does not surprise me in the least. I hope that the unionist parties will think again about this, and not take this any further at least until the facts are more clear. Ideally, that would be when there is a conviction and the Chief Constable can point with confidence to what actually happened. If there is a link, the Chief Constable will say so.”
“Obviously, there can be a tipping point, but that would be provided by a conviction, firm evidence or a firm conclusion of the Chief Constable. We are content to wait for that. You were not content to wait.”
“Sorry; they are the words of the Assistant Chief Constable at the Policing Board just last Thursday. He said that there is no terrorist threat or threat to national security. He also confirmed that the PSNI will bring the perpetrators to justice if possible, and we are content to await the outcome before considering any action consequent upon that outcome. <BR /> <BR />I have every confidence in the ability of the Chief Constable to act with his usual honesty and integrity, and to tell it as he sees it, without political bias. If there is a link to a political party, which is what this is really about, he will say so. In the meantime, it is regrettable that some of our colleagues here have taken precipitate actions in advance of the facts emerging. We do not advance the image and status of this country by boycott. Just the opposite.”
“That is only the tip of the iceberg, but it is the official figure. There were 70 in 2013-14, and 127, for example, in 2009-2010. Those were by paramilitaries of all shades. So, why, suddenly, do we see the reaction from my left when another murder occurs, evidently as probably some sort of internal feud or drugs dispute? Clearly, it hinges on the comments of the Chief Constable. <BR /> <BR />I have a lot of faith in the Chief Constable and I think he has played this with a straight bat. He has given his assessment that members of the Provisional IRA were probably involved, with others, in this murder. He does not believe that the murder was ordered by a central command or that anything beyond a skeleton structure still exists. His assessment is that the IRA is now involved in "peaceful and democratic means." Those are his words.”
“I thank Mr Maginness for his intervention. It is not actually removed at all; it is exactly the same methodology and the same summary justice. It is just being done by a different illegal organisation, apparently. <BR /> <BR />I do not know as much about Mr Davison as Kevin McGuigan. I wonder why. I will tell you why: it is because there was not as much of a furore about Mr Davison's killing as Mr McGuigan's. It did not threaten to bring down Stormont. Paul Quinn's dreadful death prompted much outrage at the time and since but, again, there was no threat to the institutions, no resignations, no withdrawal from the Executive, no adjournments, no exclusion motions and no threat of suspension. So, what it is difference? The PSNI statistics record 94 shootings and assaults in 2014-15.”
“My first observation is that the motion could have come from any party in the Assembly. It is a condemnation of murder, condolences to bereaved relatives and a call for anyone to contact the PSNI if they have information that could lead to a conviction. <BR /> <BR />Mr McGuigan has left behind nine children. They were not involved; they are innocent victims, just as Jock Davison, Bobby Moffett, Paul Quinn, Robert McCartney, Jim Gray, Denis Donaldson, Kevin McDaid and many more have left behind grieving relatives since 2005. Murder can never be justified —”
“The report at least points the way forward in a lot of areas, but, unless we achieve the resolution of our basic problems, corporation tax will never, in isolation, be enough. I welcome the report.”
“Teacher training could almost be called a successful export matter: we are exporting so many teachers, having trained too many who cannot get a job here. <BR /> <BR />It will be all the more difficult, and we risk achieving a low rate not having solved the problems that would make investors nervous. We should be increasing skills investment in preparation for a corporation tax cut, not cutting FE and HE places and maths, languages and STEM subjects. Our current approach and priorities have made that unavoidable. The DEL budget has been slashed, and the Minister has had little option but to cut the cloth to suit what he has available. <BR /> <BR />I hope that we can move forward looking at all this in the round. Corporation tax is only part of the equation.”
“We already have companies complaining that they cannot obtain the skilled employees that they need to look after their present operations, so we need to be careful. <BR /> <BR />In the present climate, it should at least not be so expensive to cut the corporation tax rate in 2018, which appears to be the earliest point that we can achieve it. Cutting it from 19% to 12·5%, however, is not as big a challenge as it was when it was sitting at percentages in the mid-20s. Unless we stop leaking finance and wasting money on some old chestnuts such as the cost of division, welfare reform, the failure to agree our Budget and our Programme for Government, the rationalisation of our school estate and school system and even teacher training, we will continue to waste money on these things.”
“All that is despite a corporation tax rate that had been 28% but is now 20% and is about to come down gradually to 19% and 18%. <BR /> <BR />Where do we go with our proposed cut? We should soon have the decision in our own hands whether to reduce in order to match the Republic of Ireland's rate but it comes, obviously, at some risk and cost. Alliance supports the transfer of the power to set our own rate, but it must not be achieved at the cost of further Budget cuts, particularly in Departments, mainly the Department for Employment and Learning and the Department of Education, that provide the skills that need to be available when companies come here or if they decide to expand existing operations.”
“Of course, I would be looking at currency issues and, last but not least, the tax regime. <BR /> <BR />On the basis of all that I might well conclude that it is not for me and go to Hungary instead. Despite those problems, however, businesses come here as they have always done, right through periods when our corporation tax rate, for instance, was up at 28% along with the rest of the UK. We still managed to attract foreign direct investment, and we have been particularly successful in certain areas such as IT, computer skills, legal services and call centres. That is largely due to the efforts of various Ministers, the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment and, of course, Invest NI, which has in my opinion punched above its weight over the last 10 years.”
“I welcome the report, although it is fair to say that, not being a member of the Committee and not having been able to access a copy of it until this morning, I am taking it for granted that it is a good report. <BR /> <BR />I want to talk mainly about corporation tax. I know that the report is much wider-ranging than that, but let me put it this way: were I an investor looking at Northern Ireland as a prospect for a new venture at the moment, what would I be looking for? I would be looking at the infrastructure, the telecommunications, the energy costs, the planning regime, perhaps, and the transport links. I would also be looking for evidence of stable government, an agreed Budget and a Programme for Government. I would certainly be looking at the availability of skilled labour.”
“I thank the Minister. I hope that he does not think that I said this was a silly law. What I said was that silly law does not make good law and a bad law would just be ignored, which was also not desirable. I do not mean to say that this is a silly law: there is quite a lot of good stuff in here.”
“It is on the six-month restriction and the emphasis on the ages and so on in the proposed legislation. What does the Minister think? There is nothing in the Bill, as far as I can tell, although there is in existing legislation, about the need to sit a retest if you transgress. That is about the fifth time I have said "transgress", but you know what I mean. If somebody obtains a conviction for an offence during their R-plate period, or if they have a motor accident that results in a conviction, in the two years — you could, perhaps, tailor it slightly to the first year and the second year — could they be asked to resit their test and, perhaps, forget about some of these other restrictions?”
“In order that we will not to oppose the notion that clause 20 stands part of the Bill, we would like the Minister to say that he will come back after the recess, after consultation with all the interested parties, with a revised clause 20 that takes into account some of things that have been suggested tonight. <BR /> <BR />I will just ask him one more thing. Please clear up the situation on a European licence and its validity here for accompanying drivers. I am not on the Committee, and I have not studied this until today, but it seems to be that the Bill says that a licence issued by another European state will be valid. I understood that amendment No 15 would take out that concession, yet I am hearing from other people that maybe under European law you could not do it. I will leave that to the Minister as well.”
“I suppose that is the case. I would still prefer if you just did not move it.”
“I hope it is a pattern that I can develop in the years ahead. <BR /> <BR />We are inclined to listen to the Minister, and I think we can accept what he is going to say. I ask Mrs Overend this: please do not move the amendment. There is no need for it, and we can come back to it after the recess as part of a better-developed clause 20.”
“I am going to follow the logic of what my party told me to do — for once.”
“A leap year, yes. Precisely. I do not imagine that it would cause too much trouble, but 16 and a half is ridiculous. Seventeen is fair enough. <BR /> <BR />I really welcome the fact that you have drawn the requirement of 12 months before you can take a test back to six months, because a lot of people are not learning to drive in a family car. They are taking driving lessons, and there is a limit to how many driving lessons you need, perhaps in some cases, and certainly a limit to the number that you can afford. There is no need to spread it out over 12 months. Some of us passed our test after two months. <BR /> <BR />That is about it. We were inclined to oppose clause 20 and vote that it should not stand part, subject to what the Minister says. Mrs Overend's amendment is to clause 20 so is linked to what the Minister says.”
“I know that you are not going to do it now. I must say that I am glad to hear that. The very notion of 16 and a half. What is a half? Is it 182 and a half days? What is it?”
“Is it not? Sorry. Which one is clause 16?”
“I am enjoying myself. <BR /> <BR />The other bits that worry me — well, they do not worry me — are in clause 16. That is the one in which you will reduce the age to 16 and a half from 17.”
“It will have to pay for the third-party claims if he does damage to somebody else, something else or his passengers, but it will not have to pay for his damage. What happens if that person has transgressed by not having a responsible additional passenger in his vehicle when he should have? He will be in breach of the law, if we pass it. Would that mean that the insurance company can say, "You were not properly supervised"? To me, it is much the same as, under the present rules, a provisional driver driving without somebody beside him and crashing the car. His insurance company will almost certainly say, "No, sorry". I could go on all night about this. There are so many bits that need tidying up. I will not go on too long.”
“What is liable to happen is the real point that I am trying to make. If you make silly law, people will ignore it. If you make bad law, it cannot be enforced, or, if it is widely ignored, there is a not a lot of point to it. If that is the case and this is what we were going to do here, Minister, I am glad to hear that you will have a rethink on it, because there are too many idiosyncrasies in this that are just asking for trouble. <BR /> <BR />The question about insurance has just been touched on. Let us say that a 22-year-old driver has passed his test and managed to get insurance that has cost him about £1,000 — he has comprehensive cover — but then drives around with a bald tyre and crashes the car. His insurance company will probably not pay for the damage to his car.”
“Therefore, a 21-year-old has to exercise due diligence. He probably does not even know what it is.”
“I notice the defence. The explanatory and financial memorandum states:”
“That is correct, obviously, but I am not too worried about it. The fact is that they have to produce all this stuff within seven days. <BR />If the driver has transgressed by not carefully checking all the information, he will get, hopefully at the discretion of a judge, and thank goodness that we still have judges, a fine of up to £1,000. OK, it is more likely to be £50, but he will get three penalty points. He — I keep saying "he", but he or she — will get another three penalty points for the speeding offence, which means that, straight off, he will have six penalty points on his licence for something pretty minor. I keep going back to this, but, in insurance terms, three penalty points will not normally affect a person's premium. Six penalty points most definitely will.”