Trevor Lunn
Lagan Valley · Independent · Northern Ireland
“I know what I am going to do: I am not quite sure what he is going to do. <BR /> <BR />In discussion at the Committee, we had submissions from the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS) and the Catholic Schools' Trustee Service.”
“They are relaxed about this. I know that they have some concerns about the Catholic ethos of their schools, but I cannot believe that the admission of non-Catholic teachers into Catholic schools will change the ethos of those schools at all. There is more of an obligation on teachers coming in to accept that ethos and run with it.”
“All that I can say to that is that the women, mostly, and couples who go to an abortion clinic, advisory service, hospital or private hospital are also entitled to freedom of movement and freedom of action. They are entitled to that under the law that was brought in by the British Government.”
“. Not yet, anyway. We have had this Bill from Chris, two Bills from the Green Party, and I forget the others. It has been a good day and, as others have said — yes, Pat Catney, of course, my constituency colleague, as well — it indicates what the Assembly is capable of.”
“The other day, we talked about the Brook advisory clinic and all the shenanigans around it. Most people here are too young to remember that, but it was effectively the same issue. <BR /> <BR />We are where we are. I hope that the Bill will pass; I am sure that it will now, judging by the tenor of the House. It will be another step.”
“<BR /> <BR />Back in 2015, I decided to visit the Marie Stopes clinic. I wanted to find out exactly what it was about. That year, the police had been called to the front of the clinic 200 times.”
The complete record
Every one of 1,110 lines we hold for Trevor Lunn, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 19 of 23.
“I welcome clause 8, on mediation. Clause 9 grants a child over compulsory school age rights that were previously exercised by the parent. If the child is over the compulsory school age, that seems like a very reasonable thing to do; as is the case with clause 10, which makes the same change in relation to disability discrimination claims. Those two clauses go hand in hand. They are to be welcomed, but, again, we will see the devil in the detail. <BR /> <BR />I do not have much more to say about this Bill at this stage, but I make a point that I have often made in the past, on the odd occasion that we actually have some education legislation: there is only one schedule, but it incorporates about 80 amendments, and, within those 80, there are subsections which probably double that figure.”
“It is important that it is properly managed and that we try to, as Mr Rogers put it, walk in the shoes of our teachers, which he did in his previous existence. <BR /> <BR />I share the concern, which virtually everybody voiced, about what is coming down the line in secondary legislation, the regulations and the code of practice. This is just the beginning. Hopefully, we will have some more detail on those matters before the end of our Committee Stage. I am not quite sure how we could possibly form a real view on all this unless we have that information.”
“That clause also looks at the learning support coordinator and the teaching staff. Mr Rogers dwelt on that at some length. I always listen to Mr Rogers with interest on these matters, because he has the edge over us in experience, having taught in a school. I think that it is only him and perhaps the Chairperson who have that experience, and I fancy that Mr Rogers has the edge through length of experience. He can annunciate the teaching profession's concerns on this, so I listened with interest. I will listen with even more interest when we come to the Committee Stage. There is no doubt that the demands on our teachers seem to grow every year, and they are certainly not going to lessen as a result of this.”
“It is important that, following the change, we monitor the actual time taken to ensure that 20 weeks becomes the limit and not the standard. The proposal to establish an appeal mechanism for children under the age of two on statementing is also welcome. I think that that is in clause 7. There are a number of proposals to ensure that the child's particular needs are taken into account. Clause 1 requires the authority to listen to the child's views. I imagine that that was in previous legislation in some form or other, but it if needs to be said, there it is. <BR /> <BR />Clause 3 requires the board of governors to have a requirement for a personal learning plan for each pupil with special educational needs and to keep it under review. That is another very welcome change. I declare an interest as a governor of Barbour Nursery School.”
“I thank the Minister for presenting the Bill to the House. Like others, I thank the Department for its very useful briefing last Friday. It was useful indeed. <BR /> <BR />For anyone who believes that the child, whatever their circumstances, should be at the heart of the education provision, this is a good day. We all have to look forward with some trepidation to what the regulations and the code of practice will say, but it is a step forward along the way, and it is to be welcomed. I do not intend to go through the Bill line by line at this stage, as I think that that is for Committee Stage, but I want to touch on one or two things. <BR /> <BR />The first is clause 5 and the reduction in the statementing time frame from 26 weeks to 20 weeks. That is very welcome. Everybody who presented to us wanted that process to be quicker.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. It allows me to correct the statement that I made earlier about co-options. The 14 co-options were in the last mandate, 2007 to 2011. Will the Member agree with me and encourage other parties to use the co-option process in the way that Sinn Féin appears to have done as a means of redressing the balance overall?”
“I just want to make sure that you get the extra minute.”
“To have a set voting time on a Monday or a Tuesday, to tidy up the votes from the previous week, would, I think, be a major step forward for all concerned. I will leave it at that, Mr Speaker. I am very happy to support the motion; it will be a good day for the Assembly if we can carry it through.”
“I hope that they would vote for the politician who most meets the demands that they would place upon their politicians and not worry too much about whether it was a man or a woman. The point is to put a relevant number of females on the ballot so that the population has a choice. Then it is up to the females, just as it is up to the males, to make the right impression, to bring forward their policies and, hopefully, to obtain the vote. <BR /> <BR />I end with this, Mr Speaker: it is up to the parties. We can do things up here to make the place a bit more user-friendly. I think it was Seán Rogers who talked about the voting system and the absurdity of having to sit here until 2·30 am to vote on something that you cannot even speak on.”
“Twenty-one out of 108 is not a proper representation. Women have a real contribution to make to our deliberations. They bring something to it — in some instances, common sense — that we can only dream about. I would absolutely —”
“<BR /> <BR />The big issue of quotas came up as perhaps the most important issue that we talked about, and there is a recommendation here in respect of voluntary quotas for the parties. That is what this condenses down to, because there are recommendations here for the Assembly and how we could make it a bit more, dare I say it, female-friendly, but it would also become more male-friendly as a result of most of those recommendations. The real crux of it is this: how do parties bring forward their potential members? How do they cultivate them? How do they groom them? I use the word "groom" in its most polite sense. How do they go about changing the habit of ages, frankly, of making an assumption that it is a job for men only? That still applies in Northern Ireland culture, and it is something that we have to break through.”
“One of the suggestions that my party made was that perhaps there may be some room for leeway there by way of, at least, a voluntary agreement to try to replace Members who are retiring or standing down with a member of the opposite sex. It would certainly have a beneficial effect with regard to what we are talking about today. <BR /> <BR />As part of the Committee's consideration of the issue, we went to Iceland. It was a very short and intensive trip. The culture in Iceland is completely different, and so is its voting system. Although they have been remarkably successful, some of the things that they do would not translate easily across to what we do here, because their voting system is different. They have a list system, and it is possible to arrange it in such a way that there will be a decent female representation.”
“I hope that, as time goes on, no other female Member ever has to say something like that again. It is a fact. There have been recent examples here of when female Members were abused. Abuse is common practice in this place, but, once or twice, there was perhaps an edge to it that did not need to be there just because it happened to be a female person. <BR /> <BR />The issue of co-options came up during our discussions. Since the last election, there have been 14 opportunities in the House to improve the balance. In all 14 co-options, the replacement Member was a man; even, on three of those occasions, when the Member who was being replaced was a woman.”
“Next week, we could perhaps see a green colour and, in two or three months' time, we might see an orange colour lighting up the Building. It is the way forward. <BR /> <BR />I want to quote a couple of lines from one of the people who gave evidence to us, which was Jane Morrice, a previous Deputy Speaker of the Assembly. She talked about her personal experience of being an MLA, particularly:”
“I am very happy to support the Committee report on this occasion. It makes a change from the last time that the Committee reported, which was on petitions of concern, when I used the word "rubbish" far too many times. I certainly will not be using the word "rubbish" in connection with this report because it is a good and thoughtful report. It has been argued over at the Assembly and Executive Review Committee for quite a long time. I am glad that we have come to this day. It is particularly appropriate that it happens to be the day after International Women's Day, as others have said. I note that the Building was coloured purple for the occasion. I note the fact that that was due to a recommendation by my colleague Judith, who is just behind me here. I hope that it carries through.”
“The equality and good relations responsibilities of councils and public bodies are very well laid out. I really hope that Newry, Mourne and Down council, where the balance of the electorate may have changed slightly, will be able to do something about this early in its life. We are just talking about doing the right thing. You can argue about the history and the rights and wrongs of it, but there is no doubt that the right thing to do is to rename the park something less contentious. It is odious thing to name a children's play park after a convicted terrorist; it is just not right. We support the motion.”
“This is inactivity on a grand scale, and it is high time that it got its act together and did something about this formally. It has the powers, so why not use them? <BR /> <BR />As far as the actions of Newry and Mourne council are concerned, it is fair to say that, as the majority party, I believe, in 2001, the SDLP sided with the decision to endorse the naming of the park because it was not its idea in the first place. It has taken the SDLP 14 years to do what it did last night. I congratulate them on what they did last night. Sometimes, some journeys take a bit longer than others, and, on this one, you have come to the right decision at the last. That is good. <BR /> <BR />We all know that the council has this responsibility under section 75.”
“We could argue all day about the definition of a terrorist. I heard 'The Stephen Nolan Show' this morning. I do not usually listen to it, but I did this morning. He was challenging people to define a terrorist. Whether Nelson Mandela was a terrorist or otherwise, you have to say that, in his later life, he at least atoned for it in a way that perhaps nobody in history ever did. I will not go into the Nelson Mandela argument, if you do not mind. <BR /> <BR />I want to talk quickly about the Equality Commission's position in all this. Frankly, words fail me. The Equality Commission was first involved in this in February 2008; it is now March 2015. It became involved seven years ago. I do not need to repeat Mr Irwin's comment about the cake. The motion refers to the Equality Commission as "lethargic"; I think that you are too kind to it.”
“Whether or not he was involved at Kingsmills, there is a direct relationship. Can you not imagine the hurt that lingers amongst the Protestant population in that area? For that reason, I will say, before somebody challenges me, that we will support the motion today. <BR /> <BR />I want to ask the republicans a question: would this man be as revered as he is in the republican movement — he is obviously seen as a hero — if he had confessed to the murder of 10 innocent Protestants who were non-combatants? Would that be a plus point or a minus point for him? If anybody wants to answer that, I will give way.”
“I do not know if he was directly involved in that or not, but there is a connection between the gun and the massacre that we can hardly deny. I hear Mr McElduff's comment that he is not named in the HET report. I suspect that there are plenty of people, perhaps not too far from here, who would be able to tell us if he was involved in the Kingsmills massacre or not. The republican movement could certainly tell us, but I doubt that it ever will. I know that starving yourself to death is regarded as a huge sacrifice by the republican movement. To me, it is just a complete waste of a life. I will leave it at that. <BR /> <BR />From the victims' side, if you had lost a relative in the Kingsmills massacre, how could you think of Raymond McCreesh as anything but a terrorist? You would have to assume the worst about him.”
“I have listened with interest so far, and I do not detect very much common ground, which is hardly a surprise. From the republican side, the impression given of Raymond McCreesh is that he was, as Conor Murphy said this morning, a man of integrity, a principled freedom fighter who died on hunger strike rather than die as a political prisoner. That is the republican line. To the other side, Raymond McCreesh was a convicted terrorist who was caught in possession of a gun that was used in connection with the Kingsmills massacre just down the road from where he lived. Ten innocent Protestant people were killed. That was not an act of war or something to further the republican cause; it was just straightforward cold-blooded murder.”
“It is taking away from the DEL budget and it could be reprioritised.”
“I will quickly make the point that advocating vocational A levels and trying to increase the number of places to provide those vocational A levels does not fit too well with increasing the number of teachers in training when we do not need that number of teachers.”
“<BR /> <BR />The CBI's 'Step Change' report advocates something fairly radical, which is switching the focus from exam results to real-life preparation. I would have to tread carefully there but I know what it is getting at; it is advocating vocational A levels. I cannot help thinking that this is, perhaps, the way to go.”
“<BR /> <BR />There is also, as Members have mentioned and the various reports have alluded to, a lack of confidence among teachers, particularly at primary level, in their ability to deliver the curriculum of the World Around Us because it is so broad-ranging. I note statistics in the ETI report that show that 87% of schools have a staff member with specific knowledge, two thirds have a staff member with a specific qualification, but only 37% have specific STEM course accreditation. Another statistic that catches my eye is that 93% of schools use external expertise but do not cluster sufficiently, and primary schools rarely use expertise from post-primary level. There is work to be done there as well to make it more efficient and effective.”
“Mr Kinahan wants to know whether I can answer them, but it is with some difficulty. <BR /> <BR />The level of education they are receiving and their level of interest in it is quite startling, even at that age. That is what is, perhaps, at the nub of this issue. The World Around Us is very wide-ranging. It is a mixture of science, history and geography, as the Chairperson said, and you would wonder about the advisability of that particular mix and whether there is a need to concentrate more effort purely on the scientific side of it. I do not know the answer, but it is certainly worth looking at.”
“For my sins, I have two grandsons, one of whom has just turned 10 and the other has just turned seven, who ask me questions now and I think, "Where did they get that from?" They get it from the World Around Us.”
“The biggest science lesson in the world was referred to as well. You have only to go to one of those events, whether it be at primary or secondary level, to see the enthusiasm of the children at any age. It really is marvellous.”
“We have had considerable success there, which really only confirms the untapped potential that there still is. I pay tribute to the companies operating in those areas, many of which are home-grown, that have already established in Northern Ireland. We have a good base to build on, but we risk running out of qualified personnel if we do not get this right. <BR /> <BR />It is generally agreed now that the process starts at primary level. That is a relatively new development, but it is good to see. I agree with Chris Hazzard that this is not a critical motion and that we do not need to dwell on any failure. We could do better, but things are not all bad by any means. There is a general upsurge in enthusiasm. I pay particular tribute to the primary schools that have embraced this and to the excellent work of Sentinus and BT.”
“I support the motion and agree with just about everything that the other parties have said so far. I confess that I was not expecting to hear selection, the Irish language or Ulster Scots mentioned in the debate, but there we are. <BR /> <BR />The value of, and necessity for, STEM subjects being prioritised has long been advocated by the CBI, and by industry generally. We now have all the various reports — they have been listed, so I will not list them again — that are clearly making the same case. In that respect, we are only going to follow the rest of the world, particularly the major economies of India and China. Although we cannot expect to compete with them numerically, there is absolutely no reason why we should not develop as a centre of excellence in the areas of STEM and digital technology.”
“To clarify, is the Minister indirectly advocating that a school such as Dromore — a brand new school that is waiting to be occupied — should be looking at combined classes from day one?”
“I hope that, between us, we can persuade the Minister to have a real good hard look at that and perhaps bring us some more sensible news before too long.”
“I do not dismiss the cost, in the case of Dromore, of three extra classrooms, but if you are going to need them anyway — you are going to need potentially more than that — it is worthwhile doing it correctly at the start. <BR /> <BR />I do not have a whole lot more to say. I look forward to hearing how the Minister justifies this kind of decision. I do not say that he has an easy job or that every development proposal is a matter of a simple equation, because it is not; but I do think that the case for Dromore Central Primary School is unanswerable. The construction is going on, so it is not too late to change the decision and do something about it. I know that money is tight and all the rest of it, but the money would be well spent in the longer term.”
“We had a delegation including the headmaster in this Building to speak to him about exactly the same problem. St Colman's had 350 pupils, so it seemed to qualify for 12 classrooms. From the day it opened, they had to give up the library and the multi-purpose unit to accommodate the 14 classes that they actually need. During construction, the builders — I hope, by agreement with the Department — put in the foundations for two more classrooms, which is at least forward looking, and now we await a decision from the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS) on whether it will allow the addition of one more classroom, which half solves, instead of really solving, a problem that should never have arisen in the first place. It is surely easier in financial terms to get these things right at the start.”
“That is against the background, which Brenda has laid out, of Dromore's dramatic increase in size. It has the highest growth in the whole area, if not in Northern Ireland. Look at anticipated enrolment, demographics and the situation in other schools, all of which the proposer has laid out. It is hard not to come to the conclusion that the right figure would have been 28. That is before you look at the model again. I keep repeating what Brenda has said. In some areas of the UK there is a 10% leeway, which seems eminently sensible to me. <BR />We have been here before, no doubt in various areas of the country. The case that is worthy of comment in Lagan Valley is St Colman's in Derriaghy, which the Minister is very familiar with, having been directly involved — in fact, I think he may have opened the new school; I just cannot remember.”
“I listened with great interest to Mrs Hale, who made virtually all the points that other Members for that constituency would have liked to make. I will add what I can. <BR /> <BR />It seems to me that when the Department has to make these decisions, the calculation is relatively simple, but getting it right is not so simple. That seems to be what happened here, as it did in another case that I will refer to before I sit down. Surely enrolment of 104 in P1 has to mean four classes — either four of 26 or three of 35. It does not relate to the figure of 29. You can make an assumption that Dromore Central Primary School has an enrolment of 730, which is seven times 104. On the face of it, the case for 28 classrooms is pretty clear and obvious. But the Department's way of doing it brings the total back to 25.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I take the point about the extra £63 million and the £17 million that was topped up for the Department of Education, avoiding an imminent crisis. Does the Member have any specific comment on what I said about 600 teachers a year being trained when we do not need anywhere near that number? Expectations are being raised. Even the teachers' pension scheme has been amended, so teachers will have to work much longer, which compounds the problem.”
“I want to query that we have suggested massively ramping up. That is completely inaccurate. We are trying to be realistic about it, and I think that Sinn Féin at least and perhaps, eventually, your party will come to the same conclusion.”
“I appreciate that this is a one-year Budget, but the problems coming down the track at us cannot be ignored. The Minister knows that, so we will see where we are in a year's time.”
“In my opinion, it is also a colossal waste of money, which is why I raise it. It is precluding other university places from being granted because we are supplying too many teachers. <BR /> <BR />The list of unresolved reforms is quite long, but there are some examples of success. If Stephen Farry had been allowed to proceed, that would have been one of them. Dare I say it, the other Alliance Minister, David Ford, has embarked on a programme of prison reform that has a similar effect. The failure of this Budget to address such reform makes it much less likely that we will be able to present a credible and costed decision on corporation tax in the near future. <BR /> <BR />As I said, we will accept the Budget on the basis on which it is now offered but with considerable misgivings. We hope for better days next year.”
“The Minister very helpfully sent me an answer to a question on that subject as well today. If you take the year of graduation as being 2010, the number of North of Ireland graduates who have been employed on a permanent or significant temporary basis is 57%. If you take it as being 2013 — more recently — only 23% of graduates have obtained a place, and those are not even full-time places. They are of a significant temporary nature, which is for one term or more, and the percentage includes full-time and part-time teachers. It also presumably includes the 200 who are on the signature project, which is about to come to an end. When we talk about an oversupply of teachers — I am directing this not at one particular institution but the overall situation — there is a colossal expectation that is not being fulfilled.”
“Last week in the House, the Minister of Education said that he had reduced teacher training places over the past number of years by 30%. Just this morning, he very helpfully answered a question for written answer from me. I will give you the figures for the approved intakes to initial teacher education courses: in 2014-15, 600 places; in 2013-14, 600 places; in 2012-13, 600 places; in 2011-12, 663 places; and in 2010-11, 663 places. I could go right back to 2007-08, when there were 699 places. Members probably get the point that I am making, which is that there has not been a reduction in teacher training places at all. <BR /> <BR />The other side of the argument is the number of teachers who have obtained a position in Northern Ireland between their graduation and now.”
“<BR /> <BR />Likewise, the education system in Northern Ireland ensures that there is a duplication of services and enough surplus places to draw funding away from front-line services and into administration, yet the Department of Education is being protected, ensuring that such inefficiencies can be protected. Where progress was made, as it had been by the Minister for Employment and Learning on teacher training, the Executive overruled the Minister and decided to spend additional money on reinforcing division. <BR /> <BR />I am sorry, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, but I am suffering slightly today. <BR /> <BR />By way of comment on teacher training, I want to make it clear, before anybody jumps up, that I am not talking about St Mary's; rather, I am talking about the overall teacher-supply situation.”
“I am glad that one of the two major parties is beginning to see the light, because we will inevitably come to that at some stage. We have some sympathy with — I think that it was Edwin Poots's suggestion at the time — the reintroduction of prescription charges possibly to pay for the very necessary cancer drugs that we do not have over here. The fact is that we had £79 million on the table, yet we have not used it for that purpose. As a result, I understand that regionally identifiable public spending on health in England is 22%, yet here it is just below 18%.”
“That is a problem across the Western World. I hear the figure of a 6% uplift perhaps being required year on year from now until 2025, and that is clearly beyond our means, so we have two options: either try to meet that or implement Transforming Your Care. When £79 million was made available by the UK Treasury to the Northern Ireland Executive, almost all of it arising from an uplift in National Health Service spending in England, I understand that we did not allocate any of it to health. <BR /> <BR />I notice that a Sinn Féin motion is to be debated next week along the lines of reductions in the block grant and the need to explore additional revenue-generating powers that have not been explored fully as part of the Budget process.”
“Any reform programme requires upfront investment, and Transforming Your Care has blatantly not received that. The recent Donaldson report reinforces that. On top of that, the Minister has given health a significant uplift in spending. However, if the health system is not reformed, it will require an uplift every year, for no other reason than the simple reality of an ageing population with increasingly complex requirements.”
“So, we are highly concerned that the Budget for 2015-16 makes no significant movement towards making the kind of reforms that could allow for an alteration to the level of corporation tax. <BR /> <BR />Of course, such a commitment would take place against a background of further reductions in the block grant, regardless of the colour of the UK Government after the next election. That is why this Budget's failure to tackle significant reform or make progress on the cost of division is deeply worrying. In all areas where the most significant reform is required, the DUP and Sinn Féin are essentially offering protection to the relevant public bodies, which has the practical outcome of frustrating efforts at further reform. As mentioned, for example, the implementation of Transforming Your Care (TYC) is not proceeding fully.”
“However, that would be a significant decision and one with a significant financial impact. We have all heard the estimates, which, at the moment, appear to range from £250 million to £300 million per annum. That is a sum that, under EU law, we would have to find from within the Northern Ireland Budget, with costs, presumably, taken from all Departments. In addition, a reduction in corporation tax would need to be accompanied by investment in skills and innovation to ensure that the reduction was the start and not the end of the process to grow the private sector. However, before any Executive could agree to including such a spending commitment in a Budget, they would need a clear and costed plan.”
“I am glad to be able to speak on the Budget. Alliance has made clear its concerns. We are not convinced by arguments that it addresses the financial challenges looming on the horizon. We have opposed the Budget at various stages, so far, but we acknowledge that the Bill implements a Budget that already has political support from the Chamber. So, we are accepting our Executive responsibility to ensure that a Budget is passed, and we will not oppose today. <BR /> <BR />Nonetheless, our concerns are amplified by the recent announcement on corporation tax. The Stormont House Agreement required us to agree on a fair and sustainable Budget so that corporation tax could be devolved. Since then, the UK Government have produced a draft of the Bill that would confer those powers on the Assembly.”
“Will the Minister acknowledge the role played by the local business education partnerships in this area, particularly, if I may say so, the Lisburn one, which is very active and had a careers convention just last week that attracted over 1,000 young people?”