Trevor Lunn
Lagan Valley · Independent · Northern Ireland
“I know what I am going to do: I am not quite sure what he is going to do. <BR /> <BR />In discussion at the Committee, we had submissions from the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS) and the Catholic Schools' Trustee Service.”
“They are relaxed about this. I know that they have some concerns about the Catholic ethos of their schools, but I cannot believe that the admission of non-Catholic teachers into Catholic schools will change the ethos of those schools at all. There is more of an obligation on teachers coming in to accept that ethos and run with it.”
“All that I can say to that is that the women, mostly, and couples who go to an abortion clinic, advisory service, hospital or private hospital are also entitled to freedom of movement and freedom of action. They are entitled to that under the law that was brought in by the British Government.”
“. Not yet, anyway. We have had this Bill from Chris, two Bills from the Green Party, and I forget the others. It has been a good day and, as others have said — yes, Pat Catney, of course, my constituency colleague, as well — it indicates what the Assembly is capable of.”
“The other day, we talked about the Brook advisory clinic and all the shenanigans around it. Most people here are too young to remember that, but it was effectively the same issue. <BR /> <BR />We are where we are. I hope that the Bill will pass; I am sure that it will now, judging by the tenor of the House. It will be another step.”
“<BR /> <BR />Back in 2015, I decided to visit the Marie Stopes clinic. I wanted to find out exactly what it was about. That year, the police had been called to the front of the clinic 200 times.”
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“It is a no-brainer, and I am pleasantly surprised that there has been no opposition to that either.”
“That is by the way. You have had a good day. <BR /> <BR />What was the population of Northern Ireland — there was not one — in 1902? That would have had some bearing, I think, on the number of licences that were allowable. Was there such a thing as a supermarket in 1902? No, there was not. Was there such a thing as a separate off-sales outside a pub? No, there was not. Everything has changed, except for this archaic regulation that says that we cannot issue any more licences. I implore the Minister to think about that as she and the Committee proceed with the Bill's Consideration Stage. <BR /> <BR />The best that I can do on the breweries and distilleries is to agree with everybody who has supported the plea of those organisations to extend, beyond what is already on offer, their ability to market their products.”
“Yes. When I think back to other contentious issues, such as that involving the Offences against the Person Act 1861, which we had to deal with last year, I think that we really cannot be bound in that way. The way that this has evolved makes no sense at all. First, you had licences that probably cost only a few quid that are now going for £75,000 or £100,000 and, on the odd occasion, many multiples of that. The only reason that they have such a value is because there is competition for them. That leads me to this question: why is there competition in this particular industry for people to be allowed to obtain a licence to run a perfectly legitimate business?”
“I marvel that we have been held to ransom until now by an Act that was passed in 1902, which, for the record, 118 years ago, was the last time that a new liquor licence was issued in Northern Ireland.”
“<BR /> <BR />I do not want to be too personal, but I grew up in a religious, Christian family environment. I learned to respect Easter, particularly Good Friday and Easter Day, and I still go to church every week, in part because I play the organ there. It seems to me that, now that we have been confronted with this at last, the sky is not going to fall in. There is nothing in the Bill, as Rachel Woods rightly said, that forces anybody who takes a Christian outlook, as Mr Allister does, to change their habits in any way. The rest of us can make our own decision about it. I have a feeling that we will perhaps come under pressure from some quarters outside, but it seems to me that the feeling of the House is that this is a good move. <BR /> <BR />The surrender principle has been much debated today.”
“I welcome the Bill. I think that the Minister is having quite a good day today, except that she is starting to look a bit tired. This is another step forward, in that we are now dealing with another contentious issue. I want to say straight off that there is very little in the Bill with which I do not find favour. It is moving everything in the right direction. I will mention a couple of points, but I am conscious that we have been here for a long time, so I will not take much of your time. <BR /> <BR />I thought that the removal of the Easter restrictions would be a headline issue in the Bill, that the country would be up in arms and that we would be under pressure not to proceed with it. In fact, I think that I am right in saying that Mr Allister was the first person to mention it.”
“I thank the Minister for that. That question was put back from a previous Question Time, when the Minister could not attend, and she did spend an hour this morning virtually answering that question. Mr Speaker, I will give her a bye-ball and sit down again.”
“There is so much to welcome in the statement that I almost feel like a party pooper for even asking a question about it. It is a very good statement. <BR /> <BR />I want to ask the Minister to develop her answer to Robbie Butler's question about intimidation points. I do not have a problem with their existence, but I have had a constant problem with their allocation. I note the proposal to bring together a statutory body. Can we take it that that statutory body, perhaps unlike some other statutory bodies in the past, will not contain members who may have a connection with organisations that may have intimidated people out of their property to start with?”
“I thank the Minister for her comprehensive answer. She mentioned the interim advocate's activities. He has announced that the advice services will be in place from the start of December. Can the Minister advise us on the extent to which those services will be available? Will they be limited services or full services?”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. The solution to all this would be to bring the backlog of MOT tests up to date. Has the Minister considered extending the opening hours of MOT centres, perhaps to include Sunday opening? Has she even considered licensing private garages to conduct MOT-type tests, as they do across the water?”
“The Minister has referred to the increasing pressures caused by the resurgence of COVID-19, and there is some dreadful news coming from across the border today about a situation that may spill over into our jurisdiction. Can he assure us that, given the importance of the stroke service, the realignment will not be unduly set aside as a result of the pressures of COVID-19?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. I hope that I did not sound unhappy with the previous scheme, because that was not my intention. However, there is always room for improvement. On the back of Mr Harvey's question, can the Minister confirm whether any particular sectors that did not benefit from the previous scheme might, now, benefit? Does he think that taking a sectoral approach rather than using the rating system might have some merit?”
“I thank the Minister for her comprehensive answer. The figures for trade with the European Union and the rest of the world are still very significant, Minister, and we may need them even more when this thing is settled. Given the British Government's success in trashing our international reputation, as seen in the explicit statements from the United States, particularly from Mr Mulvaney, just yesterday, about the consequences of interfering with the Good Friday Agreement, how does the Minister assess the potential, for example, for a trading agreement with America?”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. She will be aware that almost 40% of PIP hearings are unsuccessful at the moment. What is being done to improve that situation in terms of support for the advice sector to build skills and expertise to help people with those hearings?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Ceist uimhir a haon. Question 1, Minister.”
“Just to develop the discussion on Narrow Water, Minister, I know that it would have considerable infrastructural effect on the area, but do you agree that the tourism potential will be immense if we join up the Cooley peninsula and Carlingford with the Mournes? Considerable money was spent in the past on tourism development in the Mournes. It seems a pity that this scheme cannot be progressed quickly. It has been going on for about 10 years.”
“I thank the Minister for her statement. The statement references the ongoing work of the north-west strategic growth partnership and indicates some cooperation to unlock the full potential of the economies of both jurisdictions. Therefore, I ask her specifically, has there been any discussion about the N2/A5 project and the Narrow Water bridge?”
“The things that need to be done are not necessarily totally dramatic; they are to tidy-up wrongs and make this a better place for us to work —”
“If they did not do it, you would lose all the experience that they have garnered. In my case, I have had the same staff for over 13 years. I could go on. <BR /> <BR />With regard to rent and rates, we need a rent cap, but we do not need a rates cap alongside it. The differential across the country in that respect is stark. If somebody can find an office at £8,500 a year in some areas of Belfast, in particular, and other big cities, good luck to them, because they will then hit the rates cap. I see Mr Stalford nodding at that fact. <BR /> <BR />There is plenty to be going on with. I encourage the Commission to take this forward but caution them that we are under scrutiny. Everybody is watching this and watching what they do.”
“Thank you. That is one that I had not thought of, but I take the point. <BR /> <BR />Twenty-eight days sounds like a reasonable, average type of holiday allowance for constituency staff until you take off the 11 statutory days that have to be counted in that. In fact, they only really get 17 days plus days when the office is closed anyway. That is not reasonable. It is not sensible. <BR /> <BR />The pay scales are set in stone. If I were to retire, a senior member of staff would have to become redundant straight away. The next MLA would, perhaps, move into the same office with the same staff, once you had gone through a totally independent and transparent selection procedure, of course. That person would have to take a £5,000 drop if they were at the top of the scale to retake their own job.”
“<BR /> <BR />There is a question about mileage. Let me say straight away that I do not claim home-to-Stormont mileage because, the past few years, it has been too complicated. If I were a Member from one of the more extended constituencies — East Antrim, perhaps — and I lived somewhere near Cushendun, I would get the same mileage allowance as a Member who lived in Jordanstown. I would find that ironic. One Member would be getting too much, and one would be getting too little. Pointing to something called a "centroid" in the middle of the constituency does not solve the problem, but that is the way that it is at the moment.”
“<BR /> <BR />Members have mentioned most of what I wanted to raise on allowances, but, if this goes ahead, the Commission will have a valid template to work from. It is not all bad, but it needs tidied and it needs inconsistencies dealt with in a way that the previous panel refused point-blank to listen to us about. The question of signage is much rehearsed. Apart from not being able to put your phone number or email address on a sign, you are not allowed to have a protruding sign that people can see much more easily when they are driving down the street. Apparently, that is a mortal sin as well. You can put your phone number on your window, apparently, and your email address, but, if you had a bomb at your office, as I did, you probably would not want to leave the shutter up so that people could see the phone number. So it goes on.”
“They did not want to know about amendments and did not want to know about the glaring inconsistencies in their determination on allowances. There were one or two points, which I will not dwell on, to do with pensions that they could have tidied up. If a new panel is established — I hope that it will be — I hope that it will talk to us again about the pensions side of things. I will have one or two suggestions for it. <BR /> <BR />I also suggest that, if we are to have an independent panel, it might do no harm if there were a retired MLA with no axe to grind advising it, rather than a sitting MLA. I am not looking at myself, because I have not retired, but who knows? That has been suggested before, and it has merit.”
“I say straight off that I support the motion. I have a fair bit of sympathy with Mr Allister's amendment, but, frankly, the motion goes straight to the heart of the matter, whereas there seems to be some doubt about Mr Allister's amendment, its legality and its enforceability. I will just talk about the motion. <BR /> <BR />It is a no-brainer that we need an independent review panel to deal with our salaries and pensions. As chair of the pension trustees for many years up until a few months ago, I had some dealings with the panel on the subject of pensions, but, naturally, we ranged more broadly than that in those discussions. Quite frankly, Members, I agree with Mr Wells completely. I might as well have spoken to the nearest oak tree as speak to that panel.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. He could perhaps help me to decide which way to vote on the DUP motion if he would explain what the DUP's position is here. Is the intention, as I gathered from Mrs Bunting's excellent speech, to concentrate on the one clause, 7(1)(b), to try to get that changed, or is it what Mrs Cameron appeared to let out of the bag, which is, frankly, a much wider discussion about the abortion Act in total? If he could clarify that for me, it would help a lot.”
“It opens doors that did not need to be opened, and if we are going to debate this issue at some stage here, I hope that that will be the first item on the agenda because it is not right. It is immoral, and I hope that we can do something about it.”
“I will have to stop saying "we", Mr Speaker — I have long campaigned for. <BR /> <BR />On the question of 12-weeks, Dr Archibald is absolutely right: there is no way to legislate for rape and incest situations. We thought about that at the time of the amendment, but we could not come up with wording. One of our other Members did, but actually we even voted against it because it was not satisfactory. The only way to deal with that, in my opinion, is to allow unfettered, if that is the word, termination in the first 12 weeks. That takes care of that issue. <BR /> <BR />As far as the rest of the legislation is concerned, I am comfortable with it, except for one issue — and I agree with Mr Allister — which is the issue of severe foetal impairment. It never should have been in the Bill. It is disgraceful.”
“I have supported this type of action over a number of years and I have previously spoken about it in this House. Some of you might remember the occasion when two members of the Alliance Party, myself and Stewart Dickson, acting in our own capacity of course, proposed an amendment to the Justice Bill that would have taken care of the issue of fatal foetal abnormality. It was a pity that that amendment was not passed by the House, and I do wonder where we would be now if it had been. Would Westminster have taken over the issue or would they have not? I do not know. <BR /> <BR />As far as I am concerned, this is a satisfying day. I am not going to glory in it: it is a good day for women, a good day for women's rights and for a woman's right to choose, which we have long campaigned for.”
“I thank the Minister for that very comprehensive answer. I have no problem with the regulations, but I have some problems with their enforcement. Does he agree that the punishment for careless, or even illegal, behaviour or transgression of the regulations should fit the crime and, perhaps, should be greater than is currently the case?”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. She will be aware of the Home Secretary's figures on economically inactive people that were announced over the weekend, which have been largely rubbished by everybody in sight because they are so utterly inaccurate and preposterous and not worth consideration. They include carers, students and retired people, and they are expected to take on the jobs of immigrants. Will she agree with me that that is quite ridiculous and that there might even be a case for differentiation in terms of Northern Ireland?”
“Thank you very much, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker. I thank the Minister for her detailed answer. She mentioned at the end that decisions about housing in north Belfast in particular would be based on need. May I put it to her bluntly that need should not involve political considerations and that the absolute necessity in north Belfast, of all places, is to provide social housing, and a quantity of it, as soon as possible?”
“The Minister is being very coy about hiding behind procedure and so on. Does she agree with me that it is an absolutely clear conflict of interest for somebody to hold the position of Attorney General and also be a High Court judge? This should not be allowed to proceed. It should be stopped at source.”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker, but the Minister has already beautifully answered the question I was about to ask.”
“But that is politics. He was a decent man, and we miss him just the same. My abiding memory of him — I will finish with this, Mr Speaker — is that I made the trip to the Somme battlefields with the Somme Association a few years ago. Ian, who was a founder member of that association, was our guide for the time we were there. He sat at the front of the bus, and, in between every stop, he told us exactly where we had been and the history of it, where we were going and the history of it and probably what was coming up next. He was an absolute fund of knowledge about the battlefields, the First World War and, particularly, the details of the Somme. <BR /> <BR />I express my sympathy to everybody who was mentioned today, particularly to Ian's family and, of course, to Seamus's.”
“That is the way I would like to remember him. <BR /> <BR />I will turn briefly to Ian Adamson, who I did not know very well but whose language skills and intellect I admired. I gather he knew maybe about a dozen languages fluently, including some that some of us had never heard of because they were very old languages. He knew about the history of language, and he could be very severe on our Irish-speaking colleagues because he thought that sometimes the Irish that they were speaking was not true Irish because they had not gone back 5,000 years to find the derivation of it. <BR /> <BR />He did not particularly favour the Alliance Party, to be honest, especially in his later years. He could be quite severe with us —.”
“While he could be quite scathing in his behaviour here and through politics, his attitude in the family was completely different. I know his son Brian, who may be in the Gallery as well, referred to him as a big "softie". I think that is going a bit far, but he was certainly a lovely family man. He took great pleasure in the family and also in his grandchildren, of which he had three: Rory, Thomas and Emily. <BR /> <BR />As a family, we shared some very good times with Deirdre and Seamus at weekends and on holidays over the years. We came to be very, very good friends, and we will miss him, as will all of his colleagues. He had a wide family circle — all his friends in Lisburn and his friends here as well. <BR />However, we have his legacy as an Alliance representative, a prominent politician and a supreme family man.”
“<BR /> <BR />I want to talk briefly about Seamus as the family man. He was married to Deirdre, who is in the Public Gallery today, for around 40 years. They have four lovely children: Christopher, Brian, Stephen and, of course, Natasha. When I first got to know him, around 1990, Natasha was very ill, as most of you will probably remember. She was suffering from a childhood leukaemia — an illness that did not spare many children. In fact, I think the survival rate was about one in five at the time. However, Natasha survived. She is now in her early 30s — a lovely young lady. She was blessed with a son two or three years ago, which is something that would have been in some doubt at a time because of what had happened to her during her childhood. <BR /> <BR />Seamus delighted in his family. He was the ultimate family man.”
“Members might remember back in the 2000s when the Alliance Party had decided to redesignate as unionist for a day. They all did — I was not here — except for Seamus. Seamus was for having none of that; he did not believe in it at all. He also had trouble with some of the social issues of the day: I will not go into that. He stuck to his beliefs, always. There was one thing about him: you always knew where you stood with him, because he would tell you, and he would tell you straight out. That applied to his friends as well as his so-called foes. However, he had no foes outside the Chamber; he just did not. His attitude was, "Leave it in the Chamber". No matter what was said or how vitriolic it got, you could have a cup of tea with Seamus afterwards or drain a wee brandy if you really wanted it.”
“<BR /> <BR />Following the Good Friday Agreement in 1998 — in which election Seamus topped the poll in Lisburn, which is fairly unusual for an Alliance person, but he did — he was tipped at that time to assume your job, Mr Speaker. It did not happen for him, but I know that it was a possibility, because he was sitting in my house when he received the call in which he was offered the job by a Northern Ireland Office Minister. He indicated that he would accept it, but it did not happen for him. We heard on the news later that night that somebody else was to take the post. <BR /> <BR />Seamus held very firm views on matters that sometimes diverged slightly from party policy, but there but for the grace of God go we all.”
“Seamus stood up at Lisburn council and speculated that he was not too sure if it was for people trying to get in or people trying to get out, because of the benevolent regime that was the public perception of what went on in the Maze at that time. <BR /> <BR />Seamus was the first non-unionist Mayor of Lisburn, but he even made a joke about that: he said that he was the first one who had a beard. That was Seamus. He was a very gifted debater in the Assembly and in council. He did 38 years' unbroken service on council — more than half a lifetime. I do not know how he stuck it, but he did, and fair play to him. He was a massive contributor to the affairs of Lisburn and to Lisburn council.”
“He was awarded the OBE in 1997 for his contribution to public services, and, in 2010, he was awarded the freedom of the city of Lisburn, along with Ivan Davis, who was a past Deputy Speaker here, and Edwin Poots's father, Charlie Poots. They all achieved the freedom of the city on the same day — all richly deserved. <BR /> <BR />Seamus had many strings to his bow. He was, for instance, a prison visitor at the Maze prison for some time, and his concern for the welfare of prisoners and staff was very evident at times. He was capable of demonstrating his sense of humour. You might remember when a tunnel was discovered under a fence at the Maze.”
“I pay tribute to all the Members whom you mentioned at the start of proceedings. I cannot say that I knew them all very well, but I remember P J Bradley as an absolute gentleman. He was a pleasure to be with. I also knew the Rev Robert Coulter. I will say exactly the same thing about him: he was a true gentleman and made some great contributions to the House. Oddly enough, I also remember Oliver Gibson. I knew him before he got into politics, back in the '70s. He was another gentleman, but I knew him through education, so I will not say anything about his politics. <BR /> <BR />In particular, I will carry on from what Naomi said about Seamus Close and then say a few words about Dr Ian Adamson. Seamus Close was the reason I joined Alliance back in 1989. I will not repeat what Naomi said about him, but I will amplify it slightly.”
“Unfortunately, my question is similar to the last one. I want to ask the Minister about liability for this fiasco, as I call it. It seems astonishing that all those lifts should have failed at the same time. I wonder about the inspection regime, how old they were and who supplied them. Is there any possibility of recovering money so it will not cost the public purse a fortune?”
“Along with others, I join the House in expressing our sympathy to Anne and the wider family circle. He will be greatly missed.”
“He went on to explain the meaning and derivation of "Daróige", which apparently has to do with the Irish term for a young oak tree. That is fitting for young pupils growing up; little acorns and all the rest of it. That was Francie. As far as I can remember, he was never rude or abrupt with anybody. He had a gentle approach to what he believed in. <BR /> <BR />I will leave you with one other entry in Hansard that I noticed the other day. He was called to ask a supplementary question, and he got up and said:”
“We had a debate here in 2008 about an Irish-medium school proposal in Derry. I looked it up the other day and will read you a few lines of what he said:”
“I overlapped with Francie Brolly in this place for about three years, I came here in 2007 and he left in 2010, but I got to know him. He was certainly a very committed republican but also a lover of Irish culture and language. He was a teacher of Irish, I believe, and an active member of his church in Dungiven, where I think he lived most of his life. He was also a composer and singer, as others have referenced. Whether or not we agree with the songs that he wrote, you still have to admire the skills involved. Not everybody can write a song; believe me, I have tried, and it does not always work. He was a very humorous man. He was good company and good-natured, but the main thing that I remember about him was his consistent and passionate promotion of the Irish language and Irish-medium education.”
“The New Approach deal — I forget the full title — identified the need for the rebuilding of trust and confidence in whatever scheme is brought forward. A big part of that would be, obviously, how we compensate the perfectly bona fide and legitimate recipients of the current scheme. Can you give us any idea of the amounts of money anticipated to be involved and of where that money may be coming from?”
“I thank the First Minister for that answer. Pension payments, by their nature, are open-ended and difficult to predict. Is there any estimate for the total cost of the scheme?”
“I also welcome Mr Murphy to his latest post. There is a paragraph on page 3 about the Presbyterian Mutual Society. We have not heard much about that for quite a few years, but the news appears to be encouraging, in that it has managed to sell another property and has repaid £8 million against a loan that it got from the Assembly. Can the Minister give us figures, or maybe furnish us with them subsequent to this sitting, to indicate how much of that loan is outstanding, and what is the approximate value of the properties that the Presbyterian Mutual still owns but has not realised through sale?”