Trevor Lunn
Lagan Valley · Independent · Northern Ireland
“I know what I am going to do: I am not quite sure what he is going to do. <BR /> <BR />In discussion at the Committee, we had submissions from the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS) and the Catholic Schools' Trustee Service.”
“They are relaxed about this. I know that they have some concerns about the Catholic ethos of their schools, but I cannot believe that the admission of non-Catholic teachers into Catholic schools will change the ethos of those schools at all. There is more of an obligation on teachers coming in to accept that ethos and run with it.”
“All that I can say to that is that the women, mostly, and couples who go to an abortion clinic, advisory service, hospital or private hospital are also entitled to freedom of movement and freedom of action. They are entitled to that under the law that was brought in by the British Government.”
“. Not yet, anyway. We have had this Bill from Chris, two Bills from the Green Party, and I forget the others. It has been a good day and, as others have said — yes, Pat Catney, of course, my constituency colleague, as well — it indicates what the Assembly is capable of.”
“The other day, we talked about the Brook advisory clinic and all the shenanigans around it. Most people here are too young to remember that, but it was effectively the same issue. <BR /> <BR />We are where we are. I hope that the Bill will pass; I am sure that it will now, judging by the tenor of the House. It will be another step.”
“<BR /> <BR />Back in 2015, I decided to visit the Marie Stopes clinic. I wanted to find out exactly what it was about. That year, the police had been called to the front of the clinic 200 times.”
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“At the outset, I wish the Minister well in his unenviable task of trying to bridge the unbridgeable gaps here. There is no doubt about it: if we continue with the financial model that we have in this place, and we try to work within the Budget that we have, it is absolutely impossible. I will look forward with interest, as the months go on — I hope that it is not too many months — to see the outcome of the outcomes-based assessment of our draft Programme for Government framework. We will see where we go from there and whether it is possible. I believe that it is a model that has been used elsewhere; if you work backwards from that and decide where you want to be, well, OK, but the jury is out.”
“— not build a grandiose new facility in Ballykelly. It just does not make sense. Those are my questions to the Minister.”
“<BR /> <BR />Somebody mentioned the Prison Service, and there is a clear requirement to put more money into it; it has been starved of finance for far too long. I could mention Desertcreat. Where does that stand now? As far as I can see, it has gone from the Department of Justice, and now the Department of Health has to look after it, as it will be a Fire Service facility. How much money has been spent on Desertcreat already, and we have not yet cut a sod? Actually, we may have had a sod cutting; I am not sure, but, figuratively, we have not done anything about it. <BR /> <BR />Is the removal of the headquarters of what is now DAERA to Ballykelly to go ahead? Does anybody think that it actually makes sense in the present circumstances? We should be trying to merge those Departments —”
“Here we are, after an election, with three years clear, perhaps, in which people do not need to worry quite so much about being re-elected, and it is really time to move on some of these things. <BR /> <BR />Others mentioned the health service and the clear demand there to take rational decisions and try to work within its budget. We cannot keep increasing the health service budget by whatever the required figure is — some 6% a year. We just cannot do it. That is on top of the £1 billion, apparently. The money is not there; it will not be there. I do not believe that we can borrow our way out of that situation. In fact, it would be totally incomprehensible to me if we tried to do so.”
“Deloitte and various authorities come up with figures. I do not know what the correct figure is, but I imagine that if it was eliminated, it would cover that £1 billion for the health service for sure. <BR /> <BR />Look at the education system, and I am sure that others mentioned it today: we have maybe 70,000 empty desks in a school population of just over 300,000. That is close to 25%. I am not saying that eliminating that number of empty desks would eliminate the same proportion of schools that we do not need. If it did, it would be upwards of 200 schools. Now, I am not for one minute suggesting that that is a way to go, but there has to be some rationalisation eventually. Those are the decisions that we keep putting off.”
“A reduction in corporation tax is one; the abolition of air passenger duty is another. Somebody mentioned earlier £1 billion for the health service. Another figure that I saw recently in the 'Belfast Telegraph' was £1 billion for roads infrastructure. In fairness, I have not heard that from the Minister, but I have heard promises galore, particularly coming up to the election, when it seemed as though every substandard road in Northern Ireland was to be improved. It was promises galore; big money. I wonder how all this will balance. <BR /> <BR />Should we borrow first — borrow our way out of trouble — or should we be engaged, perhaps, in trying to eliminate waste and improve efficiency? I know that we bang on about this, but look at the costs of a divided society; they are there for all to see.”
“If I were a businessman in charge of a multinational company and was approached in America, let us say, by Invest NI with a proposition, I would be looking years ahead at these arrangements. In less than two years, this thing is supposed to be devolved, but we are not there yet. We should now be touring the world, as Minister McGuinness and the First Minister will obviously be doing, to promote this as a huge advantage to doing business in Northern Ireland, and we are not there yet. This thing could easily be postponed. <BR /> <BR />Mr Ó Muilleoir will know perfectly well that there is nothing that business hates more than uncertainty. You have to have certainty. You have to have infrastructure, a low wage base and all the factors that feed in, but uncertainty is the killer. <BR /> <BR />Look at the promises that have been made.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. <BR /> <BR />I thank Mr Storey for that. I know that those things interlink: one benefit produces another benefit. That is sound thinking. <BR /> <BR />The impression from the DUP is that corporation tax is a done deal, and the impression that I get from Mr Murphy is that corporation tax will be a done deal. The comment from the Minister, I think, on the radio recently was that corporation tax was not yet a done deal.”
“I do not disagree with that at all, but the main lever — the silver bullet — for job creation remains corporation tax. No matter how many times I listen to Sinn Féin talk about corporation tax, I remain doubtful about what is going on.”
“However, is he opposed to all forms of revenue-raising, such as the removal of the rates cap, prescription charges or the removal of the link between the regional rate and the rate of inflation? There are opportunities there, but he seems to be very much in favour of borrowing; indeed, if the Minister has met him, I am sure that the Chief Secretary to the Treasury is still recovering. <BR /> <BR />Borrowing has its place; of course it does. The recent announcement of funding for housing associations from European funds — just to make the point, Mr Deputy Speaker — is very welcome. The more of that, perhaps, the better. It comes at a very advantageous rate of interest from the central bank. That is fair enough. <BR /> <BR />Mr Storey majored on job creation being the ultimate priority for the Assembly.”
“Like everybody else, I welcome the Minister to his new post. I am sure that he will bring his normal energy and enthusiasm to the role. We may not see quite as many tweets from the towpath, although I am sure that he will get his exercise all the same. <BR /> <BR />This is a question of balance, is it not? It is about balance between promises and commitments made and resources available, with the need to eliminate waste and inefficiency thrown in. I am interested in the various views, particularly those that the Minister put forward in his opening remarks. He has indicated that he has no intention of allowing any revenue-raising opportunities. That is how it sounds to me. He mentioned student fees and water charges: we will not give him an argument there.”
“Yes, indeed. If we overmanage the latter, we risk compromising the former. I will leave it at that.”
“We have a responsibility to ensure that everyone in Northern Ireland has economic opportunities and there is economic and social vibrancy in all parts of the Province, including Londonderry, but we need to be careful to balance the overall size of the Northern Ireland economy and its internal distribution.”
“However, that work has been limited by a lack of resources and, more recently, budget cuts. Investment needs to be scaled up, and we estimate, as has been said before, that we need a step up through which an additional £85 million each year would be spent on skills by 2019-2020. In particular, that would allow us to address the current funding gap in higher education, continue to freeze tuition fees for local students and expand our provision of high-level skills. <BR /> <BR />It is also important to qualify the point on regional disparities.”
“We have become increasingly concerned at the absence of a proper plan around the lower rate of corporation tax — the clock is ticking. Mr Murphy spent half of his speech berating the Opposition, but I would like to know whether Sinn Féin is totally committed to the principle of a reduction in corporation tax. <BR /> <BR />Following on from yesterday's debate, I think that we should also ensure that there is a strong manufacturing focus in a refreshed economic strategy. One of the critical areas of intervention needs to be skills. Over the past five years, we have seen the development of a wider range of policies and programmes to develop skills, including higher-level skills, to make them more relevant to the economy and bring people closer to the labour market.”
“The DUP can take its stand, but it knows what the result will be. <BR /> <BR />We support the development of a robust interdepartmental economic strategy that should focus on job protection and creation in the short term, as well as set out a clear long-term strategy for increasing productivity and competitiveness and build on our key strengths. A central element of that strategy must be a plan to invest in the key economic drivers, such as skills and infrastructure. That imperative is particularly acute in the context of a lower rate of corporation tax. However, that, in isolation, cannot and will not be a silver bullet. The lessons from elsewhere are clear: it will work only in the context of supporting investments. Indeed, there needs to be a lead-in time.”
“As others have said, any discussion of our future economic prospects has to reflect the current uncertainty posed by the EU referendum and the implications that would flow from a vote to leave. The single market provides us with massive trading opportunities and the scope to grow our exports. Access to markets is the biggest issue for investors looking at Northern Ireland. If we left, there would be a real danger that investments would go elsewhere. The vast majority of economic experts strongly recommend a "Remain" vote, as does the Alliance Party and all the parties here except for the DUP. I cannot help thinking about and reflecting on what Mr Eastwood said, and I think that he is right: the DUP secretly knows that the population of Northern Ireland will make the decision for it.”
“However, despite some good developments on the economic front over the past five years, there have been missed opportunities, and Northern Ireland has not been transformed in line with its full potential.”
“We must invest in the skills infrastructure and harness the creativity needed to ensure that our economy is fit for the 21st century. Improving our level of productivity is an essential part of any new economic approach. Alliance believes that, despite the challenges facing the economy, Northern Ireland has the resources to emerge from this period of austerity stronger and more competitive. We have an enterprising and resilient business base, a youthful and well-educated population, a strong manufacturing base, excellent research and innovation attributes, a world-class telecommunications network, strong international links and unique natural and cultural resources. Our strengths obviously outweigh our weaknesses.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, and congratulations on your appointment. <BR /> <BR />We will support the motion and the amendment. On the motion, the Executive have already stated on several occasions that a new economic strategy would be developed in conjunction with the Programme for Government, a new Budget, a social strategy and an investment strategy. The amendment provides additional emphasis on the critical aspect of skills. I will, however, shortly make a few qualifications about regional balance. <BR /> <BR />The Alliance Party shares the aim and ambition of making Northern Ireland the most innovative and dynamic regional economy in Europe, but, to do this, we can no longer rely on what made us prosperous in the past.”
“All they are really doing, however, is protecting their own interests and their own turf. <BR /> <BR />We talk about bringing a tougher justice system. I think that the criminal justice system, as it stands, is robust enough to deal with these situations, but we need the political will. We need to take away the credibility of these people to act in the way that they do. I hope that everybody will indicate a need for full political support for loosening paramilitary control, and the sooner the better. It is the only way. We have to tackle the root of this, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am glad to see you there. That is all that I have to say about it. It is a disgrace.”
“I still think there is far too much cosying up between public agencies, politicians of all shades and people who used to be paramilitaries and who, in the opinion of some of us, are still just exactly that. They are supplying not only the drugs but the finance to enable youngsters to buy the drugs. They are then pursuing them at extortionate interest rates because they cannot pay for them, and, at the end of the day, what they will get out of that if they cannot pay is a beating or worse. By controlling the drugs trade, they are also setting themselves up as judge and jury and pretending to keep order by dealing with or perhaps eliminating drug dealers.”
“We need to stop giving them credibility and credence in the way that some of us perhaps try to work with them and in the way that the PSNI perhaps approaches them. I have assurance from the Chief Constable that if a member of a paramilitary organisation comes to the attention of the police through that sort of activity, they will be dealt with in a firm and robust manner, to use the terms of the amendment and the motion.”
“Does anybody here seriously doubt who is responsible for the supply and control of the trade in drugs on our streets? It is paramilitary groups. I call them criminal gangs. I fully appreciate that some of our ex-paramilitaries are now doing good work on the streets. I know some of them are doing that, but, in my opinion, most of them are not. They have just morphed from one type of inhumanity to another, and they are leeching off the backs of those sections of our population who are the most vulnerable and least able to handle the pressures that are coming on them in this situation. Let us be frank: I am talking about the UDA, the UVF and the IRA, or what is left of them in different forms. <BR /> <BR />We need to stop treating criminals like upright citizens. It is as simple as that.”
“I think others referred to the fact that it is a question not just of illegal drugs; a Centre for Social Justice study back in 2011 indicated that perhaps the greater part of the problem is, in fact, the misuse of prescription drugs. That is a job for Education and all agencies to become involved in to try to wean people away from this practice, which now appears to be socially acceptable in a way that certainly surprises our generation. It never should have got to this point. <BR /> <BR />The last two lines of the motion and the amendment refer to what I really want to talk about, which is that:”
“Like everybody else, I think, I approve of the motion and the amendment. I prefer the wording of the amendment on just small details because, for a start, it refers to "community" and not "communities". I am sure Mr Beattie made a slip of the tongue. This is a cross-community problem. Also, the amendment calls on the Executive rather than a single Minister to try to coordinate this. That is absolutely where it lies, because as others said, it involves a multi-agency approach — public health, Justice, Communities, social services and particularly perhaps Education and further education. There is no doubt that drug problems are far more prevalent in areas of low educational achievement and economic inactivity. <BR /> <BR />The other thing I will say is that the motion is listed as "Illegal Drugs".”
“I might have been coming to that, but the moment has passed. While I am on my feet, Mr Deputy Speaker, I wish you all the best. I hope that you have a long and happy retirement; you certainly deserve it.”
“<BR /> <BR />Like others, I pay tribute to all the work done by Peter and the other Committee staff, who have been very diligent. In fact, they do most of the work for us, and then we rubber-stamp it. That is democracy for you. <BR /> <BR />While I am on my feet, I would like to pay a compliment to the Minister. I have known him as a fellow Committee member and then as Minister for the last five years. He has been very cooperative in this type of exercise. He has always been approachable and willing to listen. I cannot remember the last time he accepted one of my amendments, but that is by the way. I suppose that is the fault of the amendments rather than of the Minister. I wish him well in whatever Sinn Féin decide to do with him.”
“<BR /> <BR />The last five years have not been what I would call a golden age for education legislation. The Chairman compared it to waiting for a bus and then two or three come along at once. At least we have managed, in recent times, to pass four significant pieces of legislation. In the mandate about to finish, the biggest failure was perhaps the Education and Skills Authority Bill. That did not come to pass, but, at least, we have its little brother, the Education Authority. Then there was the Shared Education Bill, which, of course, I welcome, and the Special Educational Needs and Disability Bill, which is every bit as significant as the Bill we are now talking about, if not more. We are where we are. There is a lot more work to be done by those who come back in a few weeks' time.”
“Like others, I rise to welcome the Final Stage of the Bill. It is a Bill that the Assembly needed to pass. I have heard it said that we are formalising what most good schools do anyway, but it needed to be formalised. Now we have proper processes laid down, a proper definition and a proper list of motivations. In particular, we have finally managed to highlight the situation around cyberbullying and to begin the process of recognising what a serious problem it is. I remember the statistic quoted during our deliberations that about 16% of bullying incidents took place on the Internet. I think that figure is the wrong way round, actually; it is probably more like 61%. However, the Bill at least recognises the problem, and we look forward to the regulations, advice and guidance from the Department in the new mandate.”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. After all the razzmatazz of the photographs in the 'Ulster Star' and so on, it does not sound as if the project is anywhere near the point where it might be put on the list to go ahead. You said that the funding model is developer-led. Is the developer of the surrounding land supposed to pay for the entire cost of the road, or is there input from other sources?”
“If this trend continues, NIPSA, the unions and others can be rightly slightly concerned about the situation where people will see their pension being reduced in payment. <BR /> <BR />I believe that I am right in saying that the Northern Ireland Civil Service scheme has a provision in it to ignore a negative trend in CPI; in other words, it will not apply that 0·1% revaluation to the scheme for pensions already in payment. I do not know what authority the Minister has in that regard. I think that he said that we mirror what the situation is across the water. If we have any discretion in the matter, I would like him to let us know his thoughts about the possibility of not applying the 0·1% or any other negative CPI reduction in the future to people's pensions that are already in payment.”
“Following on from the Chair's comments about NIPSA having been in touch with MLAs about this, as have other individual members of the community, a 0·1% revaluation does not sound that serious. In itself, perhaps it is not. However, I am thinking of pensions already in payment, which will, theoretically, be slightly reduced by this. We do not know, as we move forward, what the next CPI will show. It has highlighted a difference across the various public service schemes here. The teachers' scheme allows for a revaluation of, I think, CPI plus 1·6%. One of the other schemes — I cannot remember which one — allows for a revaluation of 1·5% plus CPI. That would make them 1·4% and 1·5% respectively; you would still have an increase in your pension.”
“I thank the Minister for his very complete answer. Without wishing to pre-empt the outcome of the review, would he agree that, given the present state of city centre retail areas, charity shops perform a very useful service, even perhaps just by being there, and that the outlook and appearance of city centres would be much reduced if they were not there — if they had to close because they were being rated?”
“<BR /> <BR />I also hope that the experience of sharing across sectors and between schools will lead schools, parents and governors to realise that there is no bogeyman here and that their children can be educated together under one roof without having to worry about which sector they come from, where they live or what the type or ethos of the school is, and that they will be able to go to the best school and the nearest school of their choice. That is what I would like to see for all our parents. I will give a guarded welcome to the passage of the Bill.”
“The other outcome that has been heavily promoted — again, that word — by the authorities is the societal benefits. That is where, perhaps, the jury is out. Frankly, I hope to be proved wrong in this. I hope that, in a few years' time, whoever is here will be able to look at the situation and say, "The shared education agenda was a major step forward in bringing our children together", which is what we are all about; a shared future in a small way.”
“We could argue at length about the strength of the various words, but, if I were to compare "facilitate", "encourage" and "promote", I would be in no doubt as to which had the strongest meaning. It is like "may", "must" and "shall". To me, "promote" means active promotion. I hope that the Minister, whoever it is, because now that he has announced his intention to give up the job, we know that it will not be this Minister — and I wish him well in whatever path he takes — will ensure that there is a level of equality across the sectors. <BR /> <BR />Another thing, which others have referred to and, I think, on which we are more or less agreed, is that, in a few years' time, it will be possible to assess the success of this project by way of academic achievement, results and outcomes.”
“I also put on record, because I did not put it the way I would have liked to the last time we debated this, that the Minister has made considerable efforts to be fair and to promote — although we cannot use the word "promote" in terms of integrated education, only shared. In the last few years, particularly the last couple, he has played his part in giving the integrated sector its place and its fair share of what is to be given out. I am happy to acknowledge that. <BR /> <BR />We have an ongoing difficulty with the fact that the Shared Education Bill requires the Minister and the Department to facilitate, encourage and promote shared education, whereas the responsibility on the Minister in terms of integrated and, in fact, Irish-medium education, which is obviously close to the Minister's heart, does not include the word "promote".”
“As I said, I welcome it. I think Mr Weir mentioned this Trojan Horse nonsense. I do not see any hidden agenda in the Bill. It is a straightforward attempt to bring forward a shared education system. That is to be welcomed, but, as everybody knows by now, I worry about the long-term effect of the extent to which this may deflect the system away from the integrated model and the attempt to bring our schools together in a more formal way than through just a few periods per week, but we will see about that. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the Minister's strategic review, which has been established.”
“That is actually what my concept of shared education was all along — the delivery of the curriculum and the ability to deliver the full curriculum to all schools, which, individually, might not be able to do so in an efficient way.”
“I also welcome the passage of the Bill. It is a guarded welcome: my level of enthusiasm for it is slightly below what it is when I normally I welcome a Bill's passage. We have been though all that as the Bill has gone through. <BR /> <BR />Clearly, I am one of the sources that Mr Weir referred to as having some reservations about all of what is going on here. At the end of the day, it is very difficult, and I would not try, to oppose the principle of sharing in education, because it is something that has been going on for years in a less regulated way. Only yesterday, like other members of the Committee, I spent some time with a joint group from the Boys' Model, the Girls' Model and the Mercy College up in north Belfast, who were running a joint politics class, which was excellent.”
“I wish all our woman well and a good day, and I wish the women's caucus and your group every success into the new mandate.”
“That would send a good message to whomever we are dealing with that this is an Assembly that values equal representation as far as possible. I am absolutely in favour of that as well. <BR /> <BR />Of course, with regard to Stormont and local councils, it is absolutely up to parties to put a fair proportion of women up for winnable seats. That is the key to this. Frankly, it is also for women to assert themselves within parties. They appear to me to be perfectly capable of doing that. It goes against the natural way of things in Northern Ireland, but it is changing, and it is time that it changed. The old notion that behind every great man is a woman is so out of date that I should not even be saying it. <BR /> <BR />I see that my time is up, Mr Speaker. I also celebrate International Women's Day.”
“There is certainly a lot to learn from international best practice in that respect. Ms Ruane mentioned the Icelandic experience, which was memorable — short but very informative. I would say that. <BR /> <BR />Recommendation 22 is the last that I will refer to:”
“Yes, that goes without saying. I am talking about local government as well as the Assembly. That is certainly the breeding ground for Assembly candidates of either gender, so I appreciate the point that Mr Lyons makes. <BR /> <BR />Recommendation 12 states that we:”
“Of course, that is really at the heart of it. Whatever we do or can put in place by consensus across the Chamber, it is still up to political parties to put people forward and to put women forward not just in a tokenistic way but to put them up for winnable seats. That is the difference.”
“Well, the point has been made: we now have six female Ministers in this place, which is an excellent tribute to the fact that the Assembly is trying to do something. In particular, we have a female First Minister. I welcomed that appointment. It is a major step forward. <BR /> <BR />Recommendation 7 states:”
“Note the words "should consider". Recommendation 2 states:”
“The public appointments process should also be made to adopt a more equitable approach to its operation, not just to women, frankly, but to minorities of all kinds, because it is something that is very lacking in its performance to date. <BR /> <BR />Mr Speaker, your initiative, of course, has its roots in the AERC report on women in politics a year ago, one of the more significant reports that that Committee has brought out. We have produced almost 30 recommendations, two of which you have now acted on. If they were all adopted, they would certainly go a long way towards achieving the results we would all like to see. I will just refer briefly to some of the recommendations. Recommendation 1 states:”
“I thank my party colleague for that. I will put it bluntly: you will not make the progress that you would like to make in this place without the support of men. That is a given. I hope that a lot of other men who maybe do not need much persuasion will come on board with the initiative as time goes on. <BR /> <BR />The women's caucus will be established today. Both groups can then drive forward an agenda that, I hope, will place women on a more equal footing in this place. If we set the example, others will follow and the boards of public companies and those receiving support from public funds can be encouraged, persuaded or cajoled to do likewise.”