Trevor Lunn
Lagan Valley · Independent · Northern Ireland
“I know what I am going to do: I am not quite sure what he is going to do. <BR /> <BR />In discussion at the Committee, we had submissions from the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS) and the Catholic Schools' Trustee Service.”
“They are relaxed about this. I know that they have some concerns about the Catholic ethos of their schools, but I cannot believe that the admission of non-Catholic teachers into Catholic schools will change the ethos of those schools at all. There is more of an obligation on teachers coming in to accept that ethos and run with it.”
“All that I can say to that is that the women, mostly, and couples who go to an abortion clinic, advisory service, hospital or private hospital are also entitled to freedom of movement and freedom of action. They are entitled to that under the law that was brought in by the British Government.”
“. Not yet, anyway. We have had this Bill from Chris, two Bills from the Green Party, and I forget the others. It has been a good day and, as others have said — yes, Pat Catney, of course, my constituency colleague, as well — it indicates what the Assembly is capable of.”
“The other day, we talked about the Brook advisory clinic and all the shenanigans around it. Most people here are too young to remember that, but it was effectively the same issue. <BR /> <BR />We are where we are. I hope that the Bill will pass; I am sure that it will now, judging by the tenor of the House. It will be another step.”
“<BR /> <BR />Back in 2015, I decided to visit the Marie Stopes clinic. I wanted to find out exactly what it was about. That year, the police had been called to the front of the clinic 200 times.”
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“I heard Colum Eastwood this morning on the radio pass a comment along the lines that, when you were talking to Séamus, it was not always easy to tell whether you were getting advice or a telling-off, but that is the nature of straight talking. Maybe we need more of that in this place. May he rest in peace.”
“I totally agree with what John Dallat said: we cannot let the opportunity pass this time. He was, of course, a committed nationalist, but, at the same time, he was a realistic one who realised that it was necessary to reach out to unionists and that there was no point in just banging a drum for a united Ireland. He appreciated the need for consent. <BR /> <BR />I join others in sending my sympathy and condolences to his family circle and to his SDLP colleagues, who must be feeling it today. They have lost a great man who, I understand, was still providing insight and sound advice until very recently.”
“<BR /> <BR />That word "respect" has been much used in recent days, in how Séamus Mallon treated others and in their attitude to him. People from across the political spectrum have commented over the weekend and today about his honesty, his straight talking and his negotiating skills, which were used to such good effect over the years, as we all know. His partnership with John Hume was a formidable one. I am sure that it is no exaggeration to say that, without them, the Good Friday Agreement and, perhaps, other agreements might never have happened. Their legacy and that of others whom I could mention, such as David Trimble, Dr Paisley and Gerry Adams, is demonstrated by the fact that we are able to stand here today and talk about Séamus in an Assembly that has been reconstituted.”
“I did not know Séamus Mallon personally, although, perhaps, we belong to the same generation, going by age at least. I met him just once. It was at the funeral of one of our Banbridge councillors, Sheila McQuade, and his presence was very much appreciated at that time. Attendance at the funerals of victims of violence was very important to him, and he made a point of attending all of them in his constituency. That was surely a statement of his opposition to violence — implacable opposition to violence — from which he never wavered. My predecessor in Lagan Valley, the late and much-missed Seamus Close, knew him very well and spoke very fondly of him. Even though they had political differences at times, there was a good measure of personal friendship and respect between them.”
“I was not aware whether there was a list or whether we had to rise in our seat, but I have risen, so here we are.”
“I will leave it to the Minister to give us an update on the progress of whatever review she has instigated, but I agree with the point. There is a question of reassurance here for victims, survivors and bereaved family members, and I do not think that our history on this has been one of dealing with it well. We have to err on the side of caution but with proper safeguards. We will support the motion.”
“Three years to bring a case to court is too long, and that goes back to the slowness of justice that Mr Beattie mentioned.”
“I look forward to the Ulster Unionist Member winding up the motion and the Minister's response, and I think the main objective of the motion, subject to the caveats that I have expressed, is to err on the side of caution in terrorist-related situations. The motion is well made and is worthy of support. I hear the comments from Sinn Féin about human rights and the European Convention and so on. In the real world, frankly, it makes no sense to release terrorist suspects into the community, but I express the cautionary note that, frankly, you cannot keep them there for ever if the case is not coming forward. In this case, we go back to the fact that, if Damien McLaughlin were on remand in custody now, we would be having a different debate.”
“All that reinforces the thrust of the motion, which is that terrorist suspects should not be granted bail initially and a full review of bail policy — something that, I understand, the Minister has said she has instigated — should be thorough and meaningful.”
“It was only finally revoked because he put something inappropriate on social media. <BR /> <BR />As somebody else said, this would not be tolerated across the water. People over there do not understand why a terrorist suspect over here would ever be released on bail; it just would not happen in the rest of the UK. We are talking about different types of terrorist, but it just would not happen there. <BR /> <BR />Going back to the recent case of Damien McLaughlin, he apparently disappeared on 18 November, and it was not noticed, it appears, until 23 December — five weeks later. A further two weeks elapsed before it was brought to the attention of the court. How many times was he supposed to check in during that period?”
“So, with the caveat that I mentioned, the question is this: "Why should a terrorist murder suspect have been given bail in the first place?". What message does it send to the family — in this case, the family of David Black — that someone accused of complicity in the murder of their loved one should be allowed to move freely, to take holidays, to put up minimal surety, to have their tag removed, to have their conditions of reporting to the police varied in their favour and then to abscond? What message does that send to a family? <BR /> <BR />This is not the first time, as others have mentioned. In the case of the murder of Adrian Ismay, the suspect — Christopher Robinson — did not have his bail revoked despite numerous breaches. In my opinion, there were two breaches, but Mr Buchanan said that there were five.”
“There has to be a measure of discretion allowed to the judiciary to allow cases not to be put back ad infinitum without the threat that the accused may have to be released from custody if the case is not brought forward. I am not going to defend Mr McLaughlin in any way, but I note that his original bail was set in May 2014. I cannot help thinking that, if he had been remanded in custody, we would be having a different debate. I would query keeping someone in custody pending trial for almost three years. He has obviously breached generous bail conditions, which allowed him to take holidays, and it seems to have taken the PSNI far too long to realise that he had disappeared. As we speak, he is still at large.”
“That places an onus on the Minister that she will not be able to fulfil. I do not know what steps the sponsors of the motion have in mind beyond the obvious. <BR /> <BR />The motion also states:”
“I support the motion, even though we have some minor issues with the wording. For instance, it calls on the Minister of Justice to:”
“I thank Mr Allister for giving way. The question that Mr Wells refers to actually used the word "wrongdoing". The person who I cannot name was asked if he thought that Mrs Foster was guilty of wrongdoing, which has a completely different connotation.”
“I thank Mr Bell for giving way. As he knows, the total number of applicants in the end was about 2,100: does he recollect how many had applied when he made the recommendation to close the scheme in July 2015?”
“I hope that Departments and Ministers will at least learn the lesson of the necessity to listen to whistle-blowers and not to discount them, because it is perfectly clear that that is what happened in this case. The emails went into the system and were not reacted to. I do not know whether there was personal contact between the whistle-blower and Mrs Foster, but there was certainly email contact. There may have been telephone contact. It was an opportunity missed. <BR /> <BR />I am not going to go on beyond that, save to say that I hope that we can put this thing to bed along with the remaining time of this Assembly and that a public inquiry will be set up to deal with matters properly and come to firm conclusions on blame and lessons to be learned.”
“I absolutely agree with the Chair of the PAC. If the Department and the Minister had listened to the whistle-blower at that time, we would not be here. If they had listened to Mr Bell two years later, we would not be here. There had been concerns raised before hers, but the whistle-blower — the concerned citizen — got it absolutely right. <BR /> <BR />Her concerns were laid out very clearly in the email, which is now in the public domain. Even Stephen Nolan has it. Talk about an opportunity lost. I do not imagine that anybody realised the magnitude of the situation at the time, but that is three and a half years ago. Think of the damage that has been done since.”
“That is totally unfair to say about somebody who came forward as a concerned citizen, with absolutely the right motives, to point out that the scheme was going to cost us money. The problem for her was that she was in a business involved in energy economy. She was trying to get people to take fairly simple actions that would improve their energy economy and energy usage, through insulation, digital technology and a lot of other ways in which you can cut your fuel bills. She was being told by potential customers, "Why would we do that when the Government are offering us money to burn fuel? It is far more profitable for us to burn fuel and take advantage of this" —”
“It is not clear whether any feedback was received, whether the Minister asked for any feedback, or whether she just passed the email on. <BR /> <BR />The whistle-blower sent another email, this time to Mrs Foster's personal server, so she certainly got that one. That email was a lot more pointed. However, the first one — the main one — made it absolutely clear that there was a potential problem with the scheme that had not yet started to cost the country a load of money. At last week's meeting of the PAC, its DUP members tried to imply that this lady was really interested in a business opportunity and that she had spoken against the scheme because she was in a business that conflicted with it.”
“We had the architects of the scheme, Cambridge Economic Policy Associates (CEPA), before us, and their evidence was, frankly, poor. Its representatives were evasive. They did eventually admit that they had made a mistake, but there was no follow-up. <BR /> <BR />I will mention the whistle-blower. In the middle of 2013, the whistle-blower came on the scene. Three of us, of whom I am the only one in the House at the moment, have met the whistle-blower. She pointed out in an email to either the Department or the then Minister at the time severe doubts and reservations that she had about the scheme. I think that the email went to the Minister. The Minister passed it, quite rightly, to her departmental officials for comment.”
“<BR /> <BR />I will close by saying — I will try to phrase this very carefully, Mr Deputy Speaker, to avoid your wrath — that the people who have come before the PAC from various quarters have given us a different impression of their ability to answer a question.”
“We seem to have two different legal opinions, one of which came to us, through the PAC, from the permanent secretary, and one which the Minister has apparently obtained. You would think they might both be from the same source, but perhaps not. <BR /> <BR />I really hope the Minister can bring this to an end. It is in everybody's interests that he does, but, as I started off saying, we have serious reservations about whether this is possible, whether it is legal, whether it is fair and transparent and all the rest of it. There are too many questions and too much avoidance of responsibility.”
“Thanks, Mr Deputy Speaker. Everybody else has ranged far and wide, but I will try not to. <BR /> <BR />I have already dealt with this, but the question that has been much discussed here today is why we voted against the closure of the scheme in February 2016. We have addressed that. The real damage was done here between July 2015, when this incident occurred amongst special advisers and two Ministers, and November and December 2015. I understand there were something like 800 applications in those two months. That is when the damage was done — when the scheme was still wide open. I have to say it is a pity we are coming to discuss this so late in the day — in the dying days of the Assembly. I would like the Minister, as best he can, to address the questions I and others have raised. Is this legally possible?”
“Is he going to release on Wednesday the names and addresses of all the recipients, or is he going to release the details that he is allowed to under the scheme?”
“I understand that the Minister on Wednesday, after we have finished here, is going to disclose the details of the recipients — the full list. We have been advised through the PAC that it is not possible to do that. The application form which everybody signed to enter the scheme confirms that they do not object to details being released, but it stops short of mentioning names and addresses. It gives the type of scheme, the type of equipment, the payments received and something called "location", which apparently, in these terms, does not mean "address" but is probably part of the postcode. I think that is the information that has already been given to 'The Stephen Nolan Show' through an FOI request. I would like the Minister to address that point.”
“I think if one SpAd approaches another Department with informal advice, instruction, coercion or pressure — I do not care what you call it — they are acting on behalf of the Minister. They cannot avoid it, and the Minister cannot avoid it. So I am quite certain that the Minister of Finance at the time, who that particular SpAd worked for, was well aware of what was going on. It may just be coincidence that the same Minister and SpAd who set up the scheme in the first place and who oversaw it were the same two who tried to pressurise the Minister of the day not to close it down. So there we are. As Mrs Foster herself actually said at one point, Ministers decide, special advisers advise and civil servants advise. Ministers decide. <BR /> <BR />I want to move to the question of disclosure of the recipients' details.”
“I will refrain in future, Mr Deputy Speaker. <BR /> <BR />The fact is that the closure of the scheme was recommended at that time. Just think of the mess that we could have avoided if that recommendation had been acted on. As people have said, up to that date, there was concern that there was an underspend on the scheme and that we had not been successful enough in promoting it. However, the danger signs were there all the same; it was beginning to gain momentum. The Minister of the day quite correctly tried to get it closed down or to get it regulated so that we would not be in this mess. <BR /> <BR />What happened at that point? Another special adviser apparently came in with "informal advice"; I think those were the words used.”
“OK. I apologise to the official in the Box.”
“<BR /> <BR />In July 2015, the Minister of the day, who is with us today — Mr Bell — his permanent secretary, who is with us today; and the special adviser, Timothy Cairns, recommended that the scheme should be closed. What happened then? They had a visit from another special adviser —”
“We hear a lot about ministerial responsibility. I have been here long enough to know that when Ministers get something right they are perfectly happy to take the credit, preen themselves and say, "This is a fantastic result". They are not so keen to take responsibility when something goes wrong or, in this particular situation, for the activities of special advisers, which has been much addressed. There is absolutely no doubt about it: a Minister is responsible for the actions of their special adviser. It does not matter whether he or she authorised those actions; he or she is still responsible. When I hear about Ministers not being across every jot and tittle or having to rely on their Department or advisers, or when I hear that they did not know that their advisers were doing particular things, I wonder what is going on.”
“You can say "oof"; I have heard you say worse than that.”
“One Member a wee while ago indicated that my party leader would not have many chickens in her constituency, but she can recognise a cock-up. That is what this is. It is beyond belief that we can get to this point.”
“How did we get to this point? Various experts had input into the formation and gestation of the scheme. There were so many expert authorities, starting off with Cambridge Economic Policy Associates. There was also Ofgem and all the input of the Civil Service, the Executive, the energy experts in the Department — I gather that that is going to be renamed the energy unit or something, but I presume that it will be the same personnel — and, of course, the Enterprise Committee, on which, for the record, Alliance did not have a seat at the time. So it goes on. How could all those people look at the scheme and not see the potential flaws, given the experience of the GB scheme? Cambridge Economic Policy Associates admitted freely that it made a bit of a mistake, to put it mildly, right at the start. What we have here is a considerable mess.”
“I am thinking back to November 2015 and July 2015; I will come back to that date in a wee while.”
“Yes, I share that concern. The whole thing has been hastily conceived and put together, in some ways necessarily so because we will all be redundant after Wednesday — except for the Minister, of course. Be that as it may, rushed laws and decisions are not necessarily good ones. We will have to see where this goes. <BR /> <BR />One legal issue is that this could be challenged because of the lack of consultation. Mr Lyons took me to task earlier — he is not here now — in a very gentlemanly way for suggesting that we should have had a consultation. Of course, given the current timescale, we cannot consult because we will not be here. If we had dealt with the problem at any of the points in time when it arose, we would have had plenty of time for a consultation.”
“In a minute. The banks were reassured by that letter telling them that there was to be a 20-year return at a decent rate of interest. Certainly, 12% sounds like a decent rate of interest or return. Yet, because of how the scheme was constructed, it turns out that some of the recipients here could be looking at a rate of return miles above that — rates of 60% and 70% have been mentioned. I have heard that 84% is the top-line figure possible.”
“Those are noble ambitions when trying to frame law, but we are trying to frame a regulation that breaches a legal contract that people have taken out in good faith and which both parties signed. It is very clear — I should rephrase that as well — it is totally unclear in some aspects, but it is a legal contract. People signed up to the scheme with the expectation of a 20-year return, and the Minister of the day wrote to the banks, as we know, to reassure them that it was a good scheme and worthy of their support in the form of bank loans for boilers, which they may not instinctively have warmed to, so to speak.”
“Others, and some are becoming public knowledge, quite clearly saw an opportunity to scam the system and make a lot of money through a use of heat that had nothing to do with heating a business for commercial purposes. This, however, is a broad-brush approach. The tiering will hit people, and the 400,000 kilowatt-hours a year limit will also hit some bona fide businesses. It may well not disadvantage people in the second category — those who were trying to take advantage of the scheme — because they use only 390,000 kilowatt-hours a year. You can follow the argument without me telling you. <BR /> <BR />Mrs Pengelly said that it was important that what was proposed was fair and in the public interest. I tend to agree.”
“The damage was done in the period running up to November 2015. It was not done between that date and 2016. No more damage would have been done between February 2016 and the end of March, which was the proposed date of the scheme's closure to new applicants. <BR /> <BR />As far as the application of the regulations are concerned, which is what we are here to talk about, there are serious doubts about whether this is feasible or legal and whether it infringes European regulations in particular. It will affect bona fide recipients of the scheme. These are people who took advantage — I will rephrase that — decided to enter the scheme out of the best of motives.”
“It seemed sensible to allow a bit more time for the scheme to progress on the basis of apparent cost neutrality or close to it. I do not know why on earth, almost a year later, we are still being criticised for that, except that there is political —”
“Some of us at this end of the House received considerable criticism for not supporting the closure of the scheme in February 2016. Everybody, including Mr Maskey, Mr Frew and everybody else who has been slightly critical of us, knows that we opposed the closure of the amended scheme for a short period. If the proposed solution is so good, where was the harm in allowing the scheme to continue on exactly the same basis for a few weeks? The obvious reason for that has been given very adequately by Mrs Bradley and others, and it was that there were people who had contracted to spend an awful lot of money on equipment — on boilers. There were also boiler suppliers who had contracted to bring in boilers. There was a chain of people. We were all lobbied about it at the time. I am sure that Mr Frew was as well — he is nodding his head.”
“I hope that, when the Minister responds, he will give us a few answers as best he can. I do not care how long he takes over it because we would rather have the answers than leave anything hanging. This is our last chance. Inevitably, we will end up with a public inquiry, and I am glad that at least one Minister, whose party is not very well represented today, has decided to take it on. We have seen the proposed terms of reference. They are solid, and we look forward to hearing the result in the fullness of time. <BR /> <BR />In simple terms, the Minister's solution involves introducing the restrictions that were imposed on the scheme in November 2015 to all the recipients who availed themselves of the scheme before that date. That is fair enough. I have a question about that straight away.”
“It is fair to say that the GB scheme did not, at the outset, include tiering or degression, but the authorities there discovered or realised very quickly that there was a need for those instruments, so they put them into their scheme at a stage when it did not disadvantage anybody. Perhaps we should have learned a lesson at that time. If we had, we would not be anywhere near the situation we are in now. There was correspondence between our Minister and the appropriate Minister across the water — I think that that has been touched on — but our Minister, for whatever reason, decided to leave the scheme the way that it was. I am sure that she got expert advice. <BR /> <BR />We will not oppose the implementation of the regulations, but I say that with considerable reservation.”
“I rise as a member of the Public Accounts Committee. I am glad to finally speak openly about the issue because we have been constrained to some extent by the conventions of the Committee. <BR /> <BR />Mr Frew referred to his thoughts about incentive schemes, and I tend to agree with him. When the scheme was first conceived, it was meant to be exactly that: a good scheme to encourage people to move from fossil fuel wastage to renewable energy. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. The idea was that it would be cost-neutral, with money coming in from the Treasury, us and the recipients. All fine and dandy. It followed about a year after the GB scheme, which did exactly the same thing but was a year ahead of us.”
“I thank Mr Lyons for giving way. On the fact that time constraints did not allow for a proper consultation period, the regulations will not take effect until 1 April: does he agree that that would have allowed time for a consultation, even if it had had to be foreshortened?”
“I hope that it does not put his colleagues off in any way, and I hope it does not put off other young people who would like to join the force, because that is the last thing we need, and it would be a success for the people who did this.”
“<BR /> <BR />Nowadays, the PSNI can operate with reasonable freedom with regard to their own security. They are able to use petrol stations and takeaways. The reason for that is that they have achieved the confidence of the community, and the community, generally, has accepted that they operate without fear or favour. That actually assists a dissident — if it was a dissident — in being able to mount this kind of attack. I completely agree with Mr Beattie that one person could not have done this on their own. The Chief Constable said the same thing this morning. It has to be a gang; it has to be organised. <BR /> <BR />I hope that the person or persons responsible can be brought to justice. I pray for the full recovery of the young police officer.”
“I join everybody else who has spoken in utter condemnation of a cowardly attack on a police officer; attempted murder; bullets sprayed across a petrol station forecourt. I do not think that whoever did this cared whether there was collateral damage, somebody else injured or a gas tank or a fuel explosion. They are indifferent to those kinds of things. <BR /> <BR />I understand from the media this morning that, 43 years ago, there was an attack on virtually the same spot and two civilians were killed. Now, 43 years on, we are still seeing bullets flying on the Crumlin Road — shot by somebody who, clearly, has a different view of the future of the state of Northern Ireland and has nothing whatsoever to offer our society in terms of progress or sensible thought.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. I must say that I do not recall asking an identical question in September but, fair enough, it is the same issue. Will he update us on the associated work that may have to go ahead, known as the Knockmore link, which would obviously have a bearing on the overall strategic plan?”