Trevor Lunn
Lagan Valley · Independent · Northern Ireland
“I know what I am going to do: I am not quite sure what he is going to do. <BR /> <BR />In discussion at the Committee, we had submissions from the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS) and the Catholic Schools' Trustee Service.”
“They are relaxed about this. I know that they have some concerns about the Catholic ethos of their schools, but I cannot believe that the admission of non-Catholic teachers into Catholic schools will change the ethos of those schools at all. There is more of an obligation on teachers coming in to accept that ethos and run with it.”
“All that I can say to that is that the women, mostly, and couples who go to an abortion clinic, advisory service, hospital or private hospital are also entitled to freedom of movement and freedom of action. They are entitled to that under the law that was brought in by the British Government.”
“. Not yet, anyway. We have had this Bill from Chris, two Bills from the Green Party, and I forget the others. It has been a good day and, as others have said — yes, Pat Catney, of course, my constituency colleague, as well — it indicates what the Assembly is capable of.”
“The other day, we talked about the Brook advisory clinic and all the shenanigans around it. Most people here are too young to remember that, but it was effectively the same issue. <BR /> <BR />We are where we are. I hope that the Bill will pass; I am sure that it will now, judging by the tenor of the House. It will be another step.”
“<BR /> <BR />Back in 2015, I decided to visit the Marie Stopes clinic. I wanted to find out exactly what it was about. That year, the police had been called to the front of the clinic 200 times.”
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“I was not aware that my name was down to ask a topical question. I will pass on this occasion.”
“I thank the junior Minister for his answer. There is some history to this in that such reports are not always published in a timely fashion. This report appears to have been sidelined to a working group, which indicates to me that it might never see the light of day. The report, apparently, cost about £800,000. Can the junior Minister give more detail on the reason that the report has not been published? Will it ever be published?”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. Ms Ní Chuilín, in the Minister's absence a few months ago, indicated that it was possible that a new body would be set up to replace Base2. If that happens, can we be assured that any assessment body will not have in its membership persons with a known association to criminal or paramilitary groups, given that such organisations are themselves involved in intimidation and expulsion?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. I think that the answer was yes. Did the Minister have sight of the current Climate Change Bill that is going through the Assembly before it was made public, or did he have any input into it?”
“I thank the Minister for that answer. He will be familiar with the Government Actuary's Department's estimate for the cost of the scheme. At the top level, that is £1·2 billion, although I appreciate that that is over a large number of years. Minister, I wish you luck in your current activity with the British Government. <BR /> <BR />Is it possible that you, as the Finance Minister, will have to consider revenue-raising possibilities that have hitherto been turned down? I am thinking of water charges and the rates cap on domestic properties, and there are probably one or two others that I cannot think of. Is it possible that you might have to delve into those sorts of possibilities?”
“I know that my time is up, Mr Speaker, but thank you very much. I will support the motion and the amendment.”
“<BR /> <BR />On 30 November, the deputy First Minister said in answer to a question from Kellie Armstrong that discussions were ongoing. That was five months ago, and we have still heard nothing. It is nine months since the report was produced. I encourage the junior Ministers to tell us what they can today about what is happening and, perhaps, give us some insight into their thinking about the report.”
“The first is that the working group is working diligently to refine the recommendations in the report and will shortly complete its work satisfactorily. I hope that that is the case. Secondly, it could be that there was so little consensus in the commission that a useful report could not be produced. I do not think that that is the case. What we hear unofficially, perhaps from within the commission — let us put it that way — is that there is some useful stuff in the report. The other day, my colleague Doug Beattie pointed out that the report had cost £809,000 so far. If it does not see the light of day, it will be a complete waste of public money. I hope that, if it does see the light of day, it will not still be a waste of public money. We have to go somewhere with it.”
“The first is to welcome the motion from my former colleague and the amendment from the SDLP. I am happy to support both. They complement each other well. <BR /> <BR />This is not the first time that a report has been delayed. It is almost traditional in this place. It is still not acceptable. Why has it been delayed in this case? The commission was formed in 2016 — five years ago. I know that there was a break in its deliberations due to the collapse of the Assembly, but that does not really explain why, since July last year, when the report was presented to the Executive Office, there has been nothing about it except the establishment of another working group. <BR /> <BR />There are various potential reasons for such a delay. If I expressed some of them, I might sound a bit cynical.”
“The third and, perhaps, most important is acknowledgement. That is hearing the views of others and holding those views to be valid. It does not mean that we have to agree with everything that is said, just that the views expressed are accepted and treated with respect. <BR /> <BR />The Committee may not be united on the issues associated with flags, identity, culture and tradition, but it is agreed that it needs to be part of the conversation, and that conversation has to be informed, honest, positive and respectful. The Committee looks forward to receiving the details that it requested from the Executive Office, either by return letter — that is taking some time — or in today's debate, perhaps from the junior Ministers. <BR /> <BR />I want to make one or two comments off my own bat as an individual MLA.”
“That is all that we know about it. We do not know anything about it, and the Committee has not seen it. We hear that a working group has been established to map out a way forward on the issues highlighted in the report. The Committee was not informed of that working group being set up and has written to the Department for details: when it is to meet, whether it has met and its membership. <BR /> <BR />Renowned peacebuilding practitioner John Paul Lederach talks of three working assumptions in reconciliation work. The first is relationships. Let us face it: they can be good or bad. The second is encounter, which is the opportunity and space to express how we feel about the issues that concern us. That can be challenging and difficult, but it is important that we find ways to talk about such things.”
“I rise to speak on behalf of the Committee for the Executive Office. I thank the Members who tabled the motion and the amendment. <BR /> <BR />Flags, identity, culture and tradition have been dominant themes of political life here. Needless to say, there is significant disagreement on those issues across the Assembly. It will not surprise anyone to learn that there are differences of opinion on those matters on the Committee as well: we are merely a reflection of the Assembly. We come from different cultural traditions and have different political perspectives, but the Committee has agreed that we must talk about such things. Whatever our differences or viewpoints, we need to engage with each other in informed and respectful dialogue. <BR /> <BR />We know that there is a report by the Commission on Flags, Identity, Culture and Tradition.”
“I would go much further than that. Who do you believe and what is going to happen? I do not know. I ask everybody here to support the Bill. I look forward to hearing Paul Givan's closing comments, after Claire Sugden.”
“I do not always agree with the DUP, as everybody knows, but there is always a first time. This is an important issue. A lot of people are watching to see what we will do. I sincerely hope that the will of the Assembly and our population — I believe that the population is on our side on this — can be expressed tonight in support of the Bill, and we can send an unequivocal message to Westminster about our decision. Where it goes after that, I do not know. When you see CEDAW and the Supreme Court in opposition, I do not know who will win. I heard the comments of the Secretary of State, and someone — it might have been Dolores Kelly — said that she would not agree with or believe a word he said. You are being very kind to him.”
“<BR /> <BR />This is a one-line Bill that is designed to remove a few words to rectify a situation with which none of us should be happy. I regard the wording of that clause — "Severe fetal impairment" — as being downright offensive in terms of trying to produce that as grounds to have an abortion. We have heard about situations of aborting a fetus up to 35 or 38 weeks. That is a fully formed child, whose only offence is that it has a non-life-threatening disability, impairment or whatever. We should not be going there. We should not be doing that. I hope that the Assembly will do the right thing and support the Bill as it stands.”
“<BR /> <BR />There is a conspiracy theory that the DUP is on a track to roll back the progress that has been made in that area. Paul Givan and I sat on Lisburn council together. We sit here together. We are neighbours and friends. He and I had a detailed discussion about this before the Bill came to the Assembly. I asked him straight, "Is this one step down the road that people like me would not like to go?". He assured me that it is not. We had a debate on a private Member's motion about this issue in which I accepted the Sinn Féin amendment rather than the DUP one. I asked Paul, when he was making his winding-up speech, whether it was preparation for another assault on the abortion regulations that we now have. He assured me that it was not.”
“I believe that we, as a society, are better than to allow a measure that permits the abortion of babies with a non-life-threatening impairment up to full term. I cannot believe that the Assembly would accept that. That is the thrust of the Bill. There are other issues that have been brought in around abortion services and funding and support for women through their pregnancy. I completely agree with all that. The Executive are completely at fault; they are dragging their heels in terms of implementing what was agreed up to two years ago. It is not the fault of the Health Minister. Having praised Paul Givan, I have to say that his party is holding up the issue. That should not be happening. We are bound to do this, so we might as well get on with it. Let us get it done.”
“There is a reluctance down there among the medical profession to make a diagnosis of fatal fetal abnormality in case they get it wrong and are subjected to criminal sanction. Doctors have to make difficult decisions every day of their life. Sometimes, they get it wrong, but, most of the time, they get it right. I do not know a doctor — I doubt that I ever will — who did not do his very best to make the right decision in the circumstances. <BR /> <BR />I have a mailbox full of pleas from the public to support the Bill and honour the commitment that I made last June to do so. It has not always been my practice to respect public opinion; I have had my moments when I did not run with public opinion. I prefer to do what is right. I think that we are doing what is right in supporting the Bill.”
“There is also disagreement across the medical profession. Doctors for Choice UK and the royal college argue against the Bill, apparently because of the medical challenge of distinguishing between fatal fetal abnormality and serious fetal impairment in, as they refer to it, the short period between the 20-week scan and the 24-week limit. I do not quite know where they are coming from in that respect, but I will leave that hanging. We have all received a letter from Dr Cupples representing 190-odd GPs in Northern Ireland that contradicts that view; it is very much supportive of the Bill and urges us all to support it. Who do you believe? <BR /> <BR />There is also an ongoing debate in the Republic of Ireland.”
“for persons with a disability. When does that duty start? That is my question. It must start before birth. It must do. It must confer that right on the unborn child just as much as it does on somebody who is looking for a job. I know that that is not a fair comparison, but you know what I mean.”
“Finally, section 75 of our Northern Ireland Act 1998 places a statutory duty on public authorities to:”
“I do not know whether that is the case or not, but it was not contradicted. <BR /> <BR />Another bit that catches my eye is that the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 defines "discrimination" as treating a person less favourably by reason of a disability than one:”
“Somebody is therefore wrong. There are two sides to this. I do not know in what way the Westminster Government will handle this situation if it comes to it. <BR /> <BR />There is also the comment that Mrs Kelly read out from Viscount Younger from 15 June, which was just after the regulations were passed. He said:”
“In a non-binding judgement, it found that there is no human right to have an abortion on the grounds of a non-fatal disability. It is very straightforward. Lord Mance said about children with non-fatal disabilities:”
“I have worked with it several times on issues such as same-sex marriage and this particular issue. It takes the view that we are legally bound by the CEDAW recommendations to provide access to abortions in cases of severe fatal impairment and fatal fetal abnormality. It concludes that, should this Bill pass the Assembly, the UK Government, as others have said, would have to withhold Royal Assent because of the breach of the human rights of women in Northern Ireland. I normally attach great weight to anything that Amnesty says, but I will say a few things about that particular opinion. The Bill has been confirmed, at least by this Assembly, as being legislatively competent. There is also the Supreme Court judgement, from which other Members have read. I will read out a bit of it too.”
“<BR /> <BR />I can say at this point that I am absolutely in support of Paul Givan's Bill. I am broadly in support of the regulations that have provoked this discussion, apart from the few words linked at the end: "Severe fetal impairment", I think that they are. Paul Givan and I come at this from different directions completely. I take my view, and it is in direct contradiction with anything that Paul would believe, but we can still manage to have a friendly discussion about it and try to chart the way forward for this wee country and to do the right thing, principally by our women and also, to some extent, by our men. <BR /> <BR />Amnesty International has been referenced a few times today, and I have a huge respect for that organisation. It does a terrific job in the area in which it works.”
“I do not think that he meant to use the word "congratulate", but he did. I treasure that moment, because he quite accurately summed up my feelings about this. <BR /> <BR />The debate that we had on fatal fetal abnormality has been referenced today. Stewart Dickson and I tabled an amendment on that to the second Justice Bill. We lost, but I mention it because, during the debate, we were heavily criticised because what we were proposing was being made out to be the first step down the road to exactly what the regulations state now. The First Minister mentioned the word "eugenics", and that word was used a lot during that debate, which went on until nearly midnight. We really had to defend ourselves, because what we were about was making room for abortion on the grounds of fatal fetal abnormality and nothing else.”
“I mention that because, during the debate, Jim Wells, who has been in and out of the Chamber today, congratulated me on being the first MLA, along with Steven Agnew, to openly support abortion on demand and a woman's right to choose.”
“We have also had an astonishing amount of advice in the past few days from experts and interested groups, parties and individuals. Again, that indicates the level of interest in the issue. <BR /> <BR />I am pro-choice. I always have been and always will be. I respect the right of women to conduct their own affairs, look after their own bodies and, to a large extent, decide on what they do with regard to the termination of a pregnancy. Someone mentioned the various discussions that we have had on the issue. I remember the 2016 debate on the first Justice Bill, when the DUP tabled an amendment that would have almost banned abortion in this country and which threatened to put medical professionals in jail for 10 years if they stepped outside the very strict guidelines.”
“I am glad that we are having this debate. It is a discussion that we needed to have. The amount of heat generated by what is, effectively, a one-line Bill, is amazing. It shows the level of feeling around the issue. We have experienced it before, and I have a feeling that we will experience it again, but it is right that we have the discussion. <BR /> <BR />Before I go on, I want to say that the contributions in the early part of the debate from Sinead McLaughlin, speaking against the Bill, and Rosemary Barton and Joanne Bunting, who were speaking for the Bill, were thoughtful, thought-provoking and emotional. It is right that we have those sorts of contributions. That is not to dismiss any of the other contributions. It has been an interesting day.”
“Thank you very much, Mr Speaker, and thanks for the big build-up over the last 10 minutes.”
“I would not have said this 10 years ago, but the majority of the men in this place will support you. I want you to keep at it. <BR /> <BR />Finally, Mr Speaker, I know that I am slightly over my time, but let me say that I will be retiring next May. My contribution to this process will be, I think, to be replaced by much younger, female representation. I will leave it at that. Good luck to all of you.”
“I am not trying to be unkind to anybody, although it may sound like it, but it is a fact that there are 38 unionist MLAs on this side of the House, seven of whom are women. Rosemary is one out of 10 in her party, so there are six in the DUP. The other parties can give themselves a bit of a pat on the back, because they have done well, but we are not there yet. There is still a long way to go, but progress has been made. The glass is one third full rather than two thirds empty. I urge the Women's Caucus to continue. Keep the pressure on and make the men and the Assembly listen to your message, because it is valid. You will find that there are plenty of men about this place who will agree with you and want to see change. We are not all misogynist pigs.”
“That was the attitude of men towards women. That was true; she was not exaggerating. It was before my time, but the treatment that Women's Coalition Members got in this place was disgraceful. We have learned from that; we have moved on. <BR /> <BR />Members have referred to the 30 recommendations from the Committee. Have any of them been fully activated? I do not think so. Lip service has been paid to some of them, but the recommendations that matter, and which would make a big difference, have not been implemented. I will not go through the list, but the recommendation to balance caring responsibilities with a political career, which is a big one, has not been addressed. <BR /> <BR />I will touch on the representation situation here, because, frankly, it makes for sad reading for some.”
“At that time, we had very poor female representation. It was a male-dominated environment, in spades. Members have mentioned the unsocial hours. It was not family-friendly, while childcare was non-existent. It still is. We took evidence from a number of people, most of whom were experts in their particular field. The one who impressed me most at the time was Jane Morrice, who is a former Deputy Speaker of the Assembly and, along with Monica McWilliams, one of the two Women's Coalition Members at the time. Her words stuck with me. I looked them up today.”
“I was prompted at that time by a former Member who has been mentioned several times. She is a very good friend of mine, and we became friends through the Assembly. That is Caitríona Ruane. Caitríona had dropped a hint to me that she would like to do this investigation or inquiry, whatever the word is. Her feeling was that, in the atmosphere at the time, if she proposed it, it would not be accepted by the Committee. If somebody like me proposed it, however, possibly it would. The Committee, to its credit, accepted it quite readily. <BR /> <BR />At that time, there was definitely a need for that sort of discussion to take place. The transformation of this place in my time, which started in 2007, has been quite dramatic. That does not mean that we have got there yet, but the changes are here for all to see.”
“If our women are happy, we probably will be, too. <BR /> <BR />I was a Member of the AERC Committee when the topic came up. Paula referred to it earlier. My natural modesty prevents me from saying which Member proposed that we discuss the topic at the Committee, but let us just say that it was me.”
“Yes. Other Members mentioned the genesis of the Women's Caucus, which came about through the Speaker's Reference Group, which Steven Agnew and I sat on. We faded out of the process after that. <BR /> <BR />That is all by the way. I wish everybody, as everybody else has done, a very happy International Women's Day, and that includes the men as well. We are just as entitled to have a happy day as the women are.”
“I welcome the motion. I noticed that it was tabled by six female Members. It could have been more gender-balanced than that, if you had asked, but there we are. I do not blame you for that.”
“I thank the First Minister for that. It was well said. It is a two-week period; it is not even one week any more. Will she confirm the promise that was made by her and her colleague at the Executive Office Committee recently that Irish language legislation will be introduced that will enable the appointment of an Irish language commissioner in time for it to be completed and enacted before the end of the mandate?”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. She has almost pre-empted my supplementary, because I wanted to ask her about the timescale for the application process. When can potential applicants submit an application form?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. I appreciate that these are difficult times and that perhaps this is not the best time to have this discussion. Given that a number of schools — in fact, all the grammar schools this year — have chosen their input without the benefit of academic testing, would the Minister consider studying those schools, particularly the ones that had already decided not to go with selection tests, to see what effect, if any, it has had on their performance?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. I refer him to recommendation 17, which suggests that his Department should be more proactive in advising schools about the transformation process. Is he satisfied that the Department, historically, has delivered on its statutory obligation to facilitate and encourage integrated education?”
“The Minister will know that the jury is out on anaerobic digestion as a long-term solution to our needs, particularly in view of the carbon footprint of the whole process, the extent to which anaerobic digestion plants depend on government subsidy at the moment, and the limited life of the plant involved, which, I believe, is no more than about 10 years. There is also huge cost involved in replacing it. So, are we quite sure that Minister Poots should not exclude totally the requirement for an incinerator because an awful lot of academic information seems to indicate that we need one, and fairly quickly?”
“I go back to the question of discipline. The last case that I can remember of a civil servant being disciplined was quite a serious one, and the punishment was a letter being placed in his file for 18 months. He was not hanged. Does the question of official or semi-official appointments after retirement not depend, to some extent, on the severity of the offence and the punishment?”
“, and I would not like to see that disappear.”
“It is a good debate, and I look forward to the next stage of the Bill. In closing, I will just say that clause 16 is about advertising in supermarkets. As a warning, I have to say that my favourite wine is called "25% off six bottles"”
“It is marvellously named. Whitewater and other breweries have been in touch with me. There was an event in Parliament Buildings a few months ago involving CAMRA. I went, and — I see John nodding his head — others took the opportunity to attend as well. I spoke to a brewery operator — I will just say they were from County Down. I think it was Mr Buckley, who has now left the Chamber, who mentioned the international aspect. This man told me that he sold virtually no beer in Northern Ireland. If it was not for the fact that the Scots love his beer, ales and cask beer, he would go out of business. It all just goes straight on a boat and across to Scotland. That cannot be right either. <BR /> <BR />I absolutely support what has already been said, and I am not going to stand here and prolong this.”
“Sinéad mentioned the Whitewater Brewery. I am familiar with Whitewater beers; very familiar. I recommend Hen, Cock and Pigeon Rock if you want a nice beer. If you want to go to sleep very quickly, try the Ewe Rebel, which is very apt.”
“We have some fantastic breweries and distilleries in this country. One has just opened on the outskirts of our constituency, Pat, selling — if I can give it a plug — Hinch whiskey and Ninth Wave gin. They are excellent, but cannot currently be sold from the distillery's own premises. It will be glad of this.”