Trevor Lunn
Lagan Valley · Independent · Northern Ireland
“I know what I am going to do: I am not quite sure what he is going to do. <BR /> <BR />In discussion at the Committee, we had submissions from the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS) and the Catholic Schools' Trustee Service.”
“They are relaxed about this. I know that they have some concerns about the Catholic ethos of their schools, but I cannot believe that the admission of non-Catholic teachers into Catholic schools will change the ethos of those schools at all. There is more of an obligation on teachers coming in to accept that ethos and run with it.”
“All that I can say to that is that the women, mostly, and couples who go to an abortion clinic, advisory service, hospital or private hospital are also entitled to freedom of movement and freedom of action. They are entitled to that under the law that was brought in by the British Government.”
“. Not yet, anyway. We have had this Bill from Chris, two Bills from the Green Party, and I forget the others. It has been a good day and, as others have said — yes, Pat Catney, of course, my constituency colleague, as well — it indicates what the Assembly is capable of.”
“The other day, we talked about the Brook advisory clinic and all the shenanigans around it. Most people here are too young to remember that, but it was effectively the same issue. <BR /> <BR />We are where we are. I hope that the Bill will pass; I am sure that it will now, judging by the tenor of the House. It will be another step.”
“<BR /> <BR />Back in 2015, I decided to visit the Marie Stopes clinic. I wanted to find out exactly what it was about. That year, the police had been called to the front of the clinic 200 times.”
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“I rise without knowing whether we are going to support the motion or not, frankly, because it has been colourfully described as a "mishmash" and a "dog's dinner" —”
“I thank the Minister for that answer. She is attributing a great deal of knowledge to me that I do not have, because I am not on the Agriculture Committee. <BR /> <BR />The last time I asked about this, we were talking about horse mussel beds being the size of a table-tennis table when they should have been the size of a football pitch. When you talk about progress — as you say, the Commission appears to be moderately satisfied — are we still at risk of infraction proceedings if that progress does not continue?”
“I thank the Member for his comments. Does he agree with me, just for the record, that it is perfectly possible for two people of the same sex to love each other and want to commit to each other in a way that no form other than marriage can possibly be contemplated?”
“<BR /> <BR />Lord Morrow asked what a marriage is, and Mr Allister made silly points about polygamy. Marriage is the union of two people who love each other. That is it. The only question is whether we extend that beyond it being between a man and a woman to include two people of the same sex. It is time that we take that challenge in hand and deal with it. I support the motion.”
“As I said, I am under pressure with time. <BR /> <BR />I believe in equality and in equality under the law. For me, that equality extends to everybody in our society, including the minority groups that we all know about under section 75. In this particular context, it extends to gay people — the LGBT community. <BR /> <BR />I took a while to come to terms with civil partnerships away back when. The journey has been long for me, but I now am where I am, and I am satisfied and comfortable with the position that I am taking. I believe in civil partnerships, I believe that gay couples should be able to adopt and I have no problem whatsoever with blood donations from anybody. I cannot see how I can continue to hold a position against civil marriage for gay people if I believe in equality under civil law. That is where I stand.”
“The Assembly has the opportunity today to get on the right side of history and recognise the strength of feeling out there among the population.”
“I am a wee bit pressed here. <BR /> <BR />As I said, it is an equality issue, but you cannot divorce it from conscience. It is clearly also a matter of personal conscience. We all come under pressure from our instincts, our upbringing and our Church, if you belong to one, and all those pressures come to bear. Some of the pressure that has been applied on this occasion, through Twitter and other websites, on a particular Member from my party — not me — has been absolutely disgraceful and out of order. That is all that I want to say about that. <BR /> <BR />Mr Nesbitt has been often quoted for his wrong side of history point and his comment that the younger generation will not understand what the Assembly is about.”
“I do not agree with it any more, but I have to respect the fact that, in Mr Campbell's terms, a journey is a journey and that some people take longer to get there than others. I do not agree that a journey has to have a final destination. We are all on a journey through life.”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. I thank the Member for his intervention. He makes a fair point. He is perhaps asking the wrong Member, because, as everybody knows, I am a fairly recent convert to this point of view. It may well be that somebody, following today's vote — if it is in favour — will think it worthwhile to bring forward a Bill, and I hope that that is done. <BR /> <BR />As I was about to say, this is an equality issue for the Alliance Party, and it is an equality issue for me. However, in fairness to those who I know oppose this, I can hardly criticise them too roundly, because they are in the position that I was in at four previous votes. Therefore, I have a lot of respect for their view.”
“I wish that we could get to the point at which parties rely on a three-line whip and forget about petitions of concern. <BR /> <BR />This is an equality issue for the Alliance Party —”
“That made me laugh. You could almost infer from that that, had there been sufficient detail, the DUP might have considered it, but that, clearly, is ridiculous. The time to scrutinise this would be when legislation is brought forward. The fact that we have a petition of concern today is equally ridiculous. A petition of concern on a private Members' motion does not change a single vote in what the outcome will be today.”
“The first thing I want to do is congratulate Mr Allen on that speech. It was excellent. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the motion. It is not because I want to see the same thing being brought back to the Assembly time after time. It is a simple and very straightforward motion that calls on the Assembly to bring forward legislation. If you think about it, the only time that we will effectively decide this matter is when legislation is brought forward. Anything prior to that, while important, is shadow boxing. Today, we have a short motion that will provide at least a test of opinion as to what the House feels about this matter. My feeling is that, this time, the House will vote in favour of the motion. <BR /> <BR />I heard Mr Campbell on 'The Stephen Nolan Show' recently complaining that the motion suffered from a lack of detail.”
“There are plenty of female persons in the position of ombudsman around the world right now who have no problem with being called "the ombudsman". They quite value the phrase, actually. <BR /> <BR />That was the reason I proposed this amendment at Committee, and I will stand by it. It is a pity that we cannot agree about it, but there is no offence intended. I refer back to the "Women in Politics" report, which, I think, I instituted. I think that my record on this is good enough that if I occasionally say "he" instead of "she" or "they", you will forgive me.”
“Yes, I accept the rebuke from Mr Hazzard and his comment. I will, frankly, never manage to wholly convert to using "they" rather than "he" or "she". It is the way we are, but it does not mean any offence. I am sure he knows that. <BR /> <BR />Formal use of the word goes back to 1809, when the Swedish Parliamentary Ombudsman was formed. However, it was referred to in 1713 by the Swedish King Charles XII as Högste Ombudsmannen. If you want to trace it right back, you can find it in China in the Qin dynasty of 221 BC, never mind in the Korean history of the Joseon dynasty, which was around the same time. I could take you to the Turkish use of the word from 634 to 644. You could go on like this, but the fact is that down the centuries it has been common practice to use the term "ombudsman".”
“As the Chairman said, it goes back into modern history and almost into prehistory. It is not an English word; it appears to be a Scandinavian word. It is in use around the world. I accept Ms McGahan's point that it is not in use in America now, but if you look around the near continent and anywhere else they have ombudsmen, you see that in only a very few circumstances do they call them ombudspersons. Some commissioners in some countries are referred to as "ombudspersons", but the general rule, historically based, is "ombudsman".”
“The laying of special reports, particularly for an individual GP or single-practice GP, is a cause for concern. We will have to return to that. <BR /> <BR />There is nothing sexist, or whatever the word might be, about the word "ombudsman".”
“I was a member of the Ad Hoc Committee, and I will speak about the amendments that deal with the name of the ombudsman or ombudsperson. <BR /> <BR />Before I do that, I want to say that I agree with Mr Eastwood's comments about the laying of special reports. That may need more attention, along with representation at an ombudsman's hearing or, as he calls it, an inquisitorial process. At the moment, the Bill appears to allow the ombudsman, if a professional person is before him, to advise him that he may need legal representation. My concern is that it may be too late at that point. He may already have compromised his position, and, if a case has to go on to County Court level, the details of the ombudsman's hearing are discoverable.”
“Hopefully, tomorrow's panel report will be the beginnings of trying to stop it. I support the motion.”
“Mr Allister waxed lyrical about falling leaves and fig leaves. I am afraid that, after that, I lost interest slightly. We have heard that speech so many times, and we know where he is on this. That is fair enough. Mr McCrea said that he was sorry for Simon Hamilton. Some of us would have a grain of sympathy for Mr Hamilton; he clearly wants to be at his desk. John McCallister pointed out that it should have been left to the police. It is a police matter and never should have been allowed to bring down an Executive or a Government. Fra McCann spoke about this place being a laughing stock and all the problems of DSD at the present time. <BR /> <BR />I wish that I had 20 minutes. This cannot go on; it is a farce. It is a DUP-instigated farce, and it needs to stop.”
“You can blame other people for it, but your party — sorry, Mr Speaker — Mr Weir's party made the decisions that have caused the mess.”
“Words fail me: that is a bit rich from the party that started this. <BR /> <BR />Ms McCorley said that it was not good enough and mentioned the problems with DSD, junior doctors and Transforming Your Care. She mentioned welfare cuts. The SDLP introduced welfare cuts as some kind of a reason to bring up in this debate. Welfare cuts cost this country and our Budget £10 million a month because of Sinn Féin's obstinacy. <BR /> <BR />Mr Cochrane-Watson — I liked this — criticised Sammy Wilson's comments, which criticised his party. All he did, frankly, was confirm that unionism generally is all over the place on this. They do not know how they got here, and they do not know how to get out of it. Somebody said that Peter Weir had called the situation "messy". My goodness, "messy" is right, is it not, Peter? It is a mess of your making.”
“Chris Lyttle, in introducing it, talked about the discharge of duties in good faith. He made the case that many have made about the DUP turning up for certain motions and not for others: it is OK to talk about SpAds, but it is not OK to talk about autism. I could make various comparisons like that. He also made the point that we would have favoured a short adjournment, but in no way did we ever agree to the kind of tactical nonsense that has been going on here for the last month or five weeks. <BR /> <BR />Steven Agnew interjected and asked about a process for investigation of breaches of the ministerial code. It is long overdue. He is gone, but he is right. Mrs Dobson referred to the DUP's decision to withdraw its Ministers and start this hokey-cokey nonsense as being "undemocratic" and "un-British".”
“I wonder how many murders were, possibly, committed by members or ex-members of the IRA. I wonder, in the longer term, how many murders have been committed by members, dormant members or ex-members of the UVF or UDA. The panel report tomorrow may well be a very interesting document, but I have heard so much condemnation of the murder of Mr McGuigan that I cannot help wondering where was all the condemnation of the murder of Jock Davidson, which apparently precipitated that murder. I hardly heard a word. It is pick-and-choose, tactical stuff. The DUP wanted an excuse to take action on the back of the action that the UUP took, and it found that excuse — that three people had been arrested and, therefore, must be guilty. <BR /> <BR />I will quickly run through what Members said in the debate.”
“I listened to Mrs Foster at Question Time telling Mr Allister off for being premature in wanting to bring this place down and saying that he should have waited for the report. According to Mrs Foster and the DUP, the fact that Bobby Storey was taken in for questioning is apparently proof of guilt. It defies belief. This is a solicitor lecturing a barrister. What happened to the presumption of innocence in this country? Somebody being taken in for questioning should not, as Mr McCallister said — it was a brutal murder, fair enough — be a reason for bringing down a Government, threatening to bring down a Government or threatening the institutions of a place like this. <BR /> <BR />I make this point too: how many murders have there been since the IRA ceasefire?”
“We had the spectacle of his car being visible while his chauffeur pumped up the tyres on his bike. I mean, really. We had instance of another Minister who was out of office but apparently coming back here to retake the Pledge of Office and pick up the reins of power again — in his ministerial car from Ballymoney. I do not like to use the word "farce", because I am just adding to the general impression that it is a farce. <BR /> <BR />All of this is because a republican was murdered, evidently by other republicans. In the DUP's case, its ultimate reason for withdrawing its Ministers was the arrest and questioning of three senior republicans: Bobby Storey, Eddie Copeland, and I forget the other fellow's name. It is so full of irony.”
“A couple of instances have at least made me smile. One was the attendance of a Minister who was out of office at a cycling event.”
“Other Members quoted instances of legislative matters having to be put back because we do not have a Minister. <BR /> <BR />Mr McKinney and others mentioned the Health Minister — that is the big one — and the assertion made by DUP representatives that it does not really matter because it is relatively short-term and, whether the Health Minister is at his desk or not, it does not really affect waiting lists. I will tell you what: in the next DUP manifesto, if we manage to get waiting lists down, the Health Minister and the DUP will take the credit for it. You cannot have it both ways. <BR /> <BR />We also have the unedifying spectacle of the disagreements over whether their salaries are being paid in full or are being stopped when they are out of office. Pension rights were also mentioned, along with the use of ministerial cars.”
“Of all Members, Ministers have the most onerous task and should be the busiest in their job, possibly with the honourable exception of you, Mr Speaker. They are supposed to adhere to the Pledge of Office, and others have mentioned sections of the Pledge of Office. The meaning of the Pledge of Office is pretty clear: they are supposed to act with integrity and diligence and do their best in the interests of the people of Northern Ireland — the people who put them here and the people whom they are supposed to serve. Are they really doing that when they are not attending briefings, meetings and events as Ministers? They are not able to make decisions, except very quickly on the hoof before they have to resign again, and they are not attending to legislation.”
“We are also leaking money at £10 million a month, and we have no Executive meetings. I could probably go on for 10 minutes just being negative. <BR /> <BR />We have had so many stand-offs and blockages at the Executive, and we now have rolling resignations, hokey-cokey, in-out or — a new one that came up today — yo-yo Ministers — I like that one — introduced by the DUP following a formal resignation by the UUP. I listened to Mrs Dobson with a sense of irony, because its resignation was just as premature — even more so — and just as reprehensible. <BR /> <BR />How does this affect the running of a Department, which is what this is really about? I would say that, in this place, Ministers are normally the busiest of people.”
“I obviously support the motion, and I thank all those who contributed. I will agree with Mrs Kelly straight away: it is a pity that we had to table the motion, and it is a pity that Mrs Kelly had to speak — I quite often say that. The motion is really about the image of this place, and others have referred to that. The image of this place as a legislature is at an all-time low. It could not have got much worse prior to this episode blowing up, but it has. The population is indifferent, critical or just could not care less. The media are queuing up to poke fun at us or, more likely, to pour scorn on us. The business community is completely exasperated and frustrated, and it is fearful about the economy and the future. Our image across the world must be suffering through all this.”
“I think that this is a good day for justice, and I am happy to support the motion.”
“This strategy is evidence to the contrary, with the charter being but one of a suite of measures and initiatives being taken by the Minister, with the support of the Committee, to improve the way the justice system recognises and responds to the needs of victims, measures such as the development of victims' and witnesses' care units; the introduction and extension of the registered intermediary scheme; arrangement for victims' personal statements; new literature to provide advice when people report crimes; and other measures already provided for in legislation but yet to be commenced. In these ways, the Department of Justice, and the Assembly, should be seen as making genuine and significant efforts to ensure that, when people become victims of crime, they are not re-victimised by the way the system treats them.”
“Today's measure is a product of what is a consistently constructive relationship between the Department of Justice and the Justice Committee. I join others in paying tribute to the successive Chairs of the Justice Committee, Mr Givan and Mr Ross. <BR /> <BR />The charter is part of the Minister's five-year victim and witnesses' strategy. Too often, the media portray a justice system in which more care and attention is paid to perpetrators than to victims and in which the needs of victims are overlooked or forgotten.”
“I warmly welcome the decision to create this charter and to place it on a statutory footing. As the Minister said, today's motion makes statutory what is already in place on an administrative basis. It is commendable that the Minister did not wait until he had statutory provision in place but instead pressed ahead with the charter on an administrative basis. Similarly, it is to his credit that he was not content with that but went on to place the charter in statute. <BR /> <BR />The Minister referred to the fact that the charter and other measures that he has put in place to improve the experience of victims and witnesses who come into contact with the justice system are a product of work that the Justice Committee has undertaken, working closely with the Department of Justice.”
“I would love to see St John Bosco, Holy Family and whatever clubs there are in east Belfast — there is one in Lisburn — getting a bit more attention and a bit more investment to try to promote this sport further. It is a success story, and we should be proud of our boxers. Whether they represent the UK, Northern Ireland or Ireland is irrelevant frankly, although I do not know that everybody will agree with that. However, it is a great sport and Michael Conlan is a credit to it.”
“I do not know much about the boxing club that he comes from and the other clubs around Belfast, but my understanding from what I have seen up here in questions and comment is that they operate on a shoestring and that their conditions are not as they should be. Yet our boxers, whether they come through the amateur ranks and proceed into the professional ranks or stay as amateurs, frankly punch above their weight — no pun intended. <BR /> <BR />Mr Cree mentioned the catalogue of other heroes. He did not mention Freddie Gilroy, who I can remember, and I am sure you can too. We have a proud tradition here. It is a very useful tradition in the social mix and the way that boxers conduct themselves. It is one of the more worthwhile sports.”
“On behalf of the Alliance Party, I would like to join in the congratulations to Michael Conlan. Ms McCorley, in introducing this Matter of the Day, said that west Belfast would be proud of him. Of course they would. So would Northern Ireland and the island of Ireland because he is a credit to his sport. He seems like a fine young man. He interviewed very well after his fight. He is a very modest, unassuming lad. I wish him well for next year when he will represent Ireland at the Olympics again. Others have mentioned his record to date. He got the Olympic bronze as a flyweight in 2012 and has moved up a division. That does not always work out, but it has certainly worked out for Michael.”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. I am sure that the work of this body is very important and potentially fruitful, but it is a fact, I think, that it has not actually met since March. Is the Minister satisfied with that situation and satisfied with the general progress of the project?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. The way it was put to me was that we were the only party that, through our internal party structures, formally ratified the agreement. Others appear to have ratified it without actually saying so, or to some measure, but we are the only ones who ratified it formally through a process within the party.”
“In the meantime, I thank Mr McCallister for bringing the Bill to the House. It is a good document and potentially good legislation. Hopefully, the bones and meat of it will survive the process and we will end up in a better place at the start of the next mandate than where we are now.”
“<BR /> <BR />I have a feeling that the silent majority over to my left will probably have a lot more to say about it if they ever come back and the time comes. In the meantime, I will hope. I hear whispers that the DUP is not totally opposed to this; I am watching Mrs Bradley's face for any clue. Will the DUP come back to the Assembly and say that it is prepared to countenance, for instance, the end of petitions of concern and community designation? It is not that long ago that the AERC produced a report on petitions of concern and, indeed, you were part of it. It would be quantum leap for the DUP, and probably for Sinn Féin as well, to agree to end that iniquitous, business-blocking nuisance of a system, but we will see at the next stage. Maybe, by that time, we will be back in full cry again and will see what the DUP thinks.”
“I do not disagree with any of that but, at the end of the day, a Committee has to scrutinise the Budget and so does the Assembly, whether it is done through a newly formed Budget Committee or under the present system. I agree with you that it always ends up as a bit of a rush, but that is because it has taken so long to sort out an agreement on the Budget. That is because of the system that we have, where it can be blocked by one side or the other. We need to get away from that and get into some sort of corporate system where we have a Programme for Government established and agreed before we choose our Ministers and so on. It is all there in John's Bill, and I think that he has some very good ideas. There is not much that we disagree with.”
“Beyond that, I do not have very much to say about this at this stage. Like everybody else, we will scrutinise it. It will go through the Assembly and Executive Review Committee, so I will have some input there. It is a challenge to the Assembly if we are going to finally start to mature and grow up. Mr McCartney said that it had to be Good Friday Agreement-proofed. That is fine. I support the broad principle of that, but the Good Friday Agreement does not have to be set in stone. If there are things that we can move away or move on from by agreement —”
“Paragraph 7 of the schedule is about how the Speaker is elected and what happens to him at the end of the mandate. If I have read it right, it means that the Speaker will be elected by a secret ballot of the Assembly. Fair enough. Once we come to the end of the mandate, he will not be allowed to return to the Assembly as an ordinary Member. Correct me if I am wrong, John, but that is my reading of it. His only avenue back into the Assembly would be if he was reselected as Deputy Speaker or Speaker. It does not sound like a job for a young man, especially one with political ambition. It could be that people of my generation and that of others would be the most likely to obtain the rank of Speaker and then go off into the sunset. I am not totally happy about that. I am not quite sure how Westminster or anywhere else does it, but it sounds —”
“If important decisions require some measure of cross-community support, with or without designations, I would query whether a Budget should be allowed to go through on a simple majority. It does not sound right. Those are just random thoughts at the minute, because, like everybody else, we are going to have a good look at this.”
“Its Standing Ad Hoc Committee on that sort of thing scrutinises everything that goes through Westminster. So, there may be some compromise there, but we will see. <BR /> <BR />Paragraph 10 of the schedule is about the threshold for the nomination of a Minister, but I will not labour that one. <BR /> <BR />Paragraph 15 of the schedule states:”
“I think that you are going to have to get over that kind of thing. If this works, and there is an assumption that the two biggest parties here will remain the two biggest parties, you are going to have to think about some of these things. Once you are in power, you can do pretty much what you like. <BR /> <BR />Clause 19 on the establishment of a Budget Committee sounds like a nice idea. However, we have a Finance Committee, and I have not been totally convinced yet as to why the Finance Committee should not continue to do its scrutiny of finance, which it was partly set up for. I make the point that, when we had the Ad Hoc Committee on welfare reform, Robin Swann and I went to Westminster to see the Chair of the relevant Committee there.”
“We, as well as the Ulster Unionists and the SDLP, would need to do a bit of thinking about that. That is not to say that we would not relish an opposition role, and I am sure that the Ulster Unionists would probably say the same thing, because they have often demanded that. Let us put it this way: we have our reservations about it. <BR /> <BR />I will just look at one or two of the clauses. Clause 9 is about opposition rights to chair the Public Accounts Committee. That is universally accepted in most civilised legislatures. It was actually the case here. When I came here in 2007, the assumption was that the biggest party not in Government, namely us, would achieve the right to chair the Public Accounts Committee, but it went to Sinn Féin because the DUP and Sinn Féin agreed on that.”
“That is all right. The offer is on the table. <BR /> <BR />Of course we are in favour of having a structured, official opposition, but we should not forget that the reason why we have this slightly contrived, wacky system here is that opposition did not work. So, whatever form of opposition hopefully comes out of this needs to be very carefully thought out and not just some kind of numbers game to manipulate a particular situation and particular party strengths in the Assembly. <BR /> <BR />The clause — I think that this is in the schedule, actually — that introduces a figure of 16·6% representation before you qualify for a Ministry is an interesting one, because that would bring us back, on the current strengths, to a two-party Government, which is pretty much what we have anyway.”
“In fact, Alliance Party thinking runs quite a long way through the Bill; there is not too much in it that we would disagree with. In fact, we are so much in tune, John, that you might think of coming to us to form an even bigger technical group.”