Trevor Lunn
Lagan Valley · Independent · Northern Ireland
“I know what I am going to do: I am not quite sure what he is going to do. <BR /> <BR />In discussion at the Committee, we had submissions from the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS) and the Catholic Schools' Trustee Service.”
“They are relaxed about this. I know that they have some concerns about the Catholic ethos of their schools, but I cannot believe that the admission of non-Catholic teachers into Catholic schools will change the ethos of those schools at all. There is more of an obligation on teachers coming in to accept that ethos and run with it.”
“All that I can say to that is that the women, mostly, and couples who go to an abortion clinic, advisory service, hospital or private hospital are also entitled to freedom of movement and freedom of action. They are entitled to that under the law that was brought in by the British Government.”
“. Not yet, anyway. We have had this Bill from Chris, two Bills from the Green Party, and I forget the others. It has been a good day and, as others have said — yes, Pat Catney, of course, my constituency colleague, as well — it indicates what the Assembly is capable of.”
“The other day, we talked about the Brook advisory clinic and all the shenanigans around it. Most people here are too young to remember that, but it was effectively the same issue. <BR /> <BR />We are where we are. I hope that the Bill will pass; I am sure that it will now, judging by the tenor of the House. It will be another step.”
“<BR /> <BR />Back in 2015, I decided to visit the Marie Stopes clinic. I wanted to find out exactly what it was about. That year, the police had been called to the front of the clinic 200 times.”
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“I thank the Minister for his answer. Given that, on the last available figures, only 18% of teachers found a job one year after graduation, the signature project is about to finish and the teachers' pension scheme is being extended to make teachers work for much longer, how in the world can he justify putting through teacher training places for probably more than 50% of the teachers that we need?”
“<BR /> <BR />Ironically, if we were not to pass the motion, the NCA would continue to operate in Northern Ireland on non-devolved matters without any of these accountability measures. There would be no role for the board, the ombudsman or anybody else. You really cannot argue for accountability on one hand and, on the other hand, vote against measures that deliver that accountability. It just does not make sense. <BR /> <BR />I am perfectly happy to support the motion. It offers us an opportunity to move on, get past the seemingly endless discussions and stand-offs, get on with the job that we were given to do and allow the PSNI and the NCA to get on with theirs. I support the motion.”
“With the Policing Board, the ombudsman, Criminal Justice Inspection Northern Ireland (CJINI), Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary (HMIC) and the Surveillance Commissioner, to name only some — there are too many to list in the time that I have available — nobody could credibly claim that any aspect of the NCA's functions in Northern Ireland have been left uncovered. The Policing Board in particular has been given a powerful role. <BR /> <BR />It is right to acknowledge the SDLP's contribution in intensive discussions in recent weeks. Proper, realistic engagement has paid off. I commend Mrs Kelly, Mr Maginness and Mr Attwood. They have taken due diligence to heights unscaled in the past. That is good because they are now satisfied and on board — you are very welcome.”
“I thank Mr Maginness for the intervention. I completely agree with him that this can only be of benefit in the overall structure of the accountability mechanisms. At this point, I say to Sinn Féin that, given the Policing Board's role in the future, and, if I may say so, the contribution that the Sinn Féin members, particularly Mr Kelly, Mr Sheehan and Ms Ruane, who, strangely, are not in their places, have made to it — they should not be too concerned about their ability to scrutinise this new body through the auspices of the Policing Board, as they have done successfully in the last four years. <BR /> <BR />The package now available reflects an array of measures.”
“Some will argue that we should not avail ourselves of the NCA because there is no proper accountability in place. Frankly, nobody who has read the papers that the Minister of Justice circulated to parties in recent weeks can credibly argue that the accountability arrangements for the NCA are still not sufficient.”
“That is an area where effective action can make a real and lasting impact on organised criminals, tackling them in ways that the criminal law struggles at times to do and in ways that the public want to see. We need to get back into it.”
“If that was an issue two years ago, how much more of an issue is it now, with the PSNI budget suffering reductions of millions year on year? <BR /> <BR />The police will, of course, work to fill that gap, just as they have pledged to do so in relation to other areas where the reducing budget is putting them under pressure, but they simply should not have to. The NCA is there as a free benefit to be used in the best interests of law-abiding people, so why on earth would we not avail ourselves of it? The PSNI cannot close the gap in relation to civil recovery, nor can any other agency. In the absence of the NCA, civil recovery has been left largely unattended since October 2013.”
“Sometimes, it is indirect, when resources that could have been deployed to safeguard the public have had to be redirected to fill gaps left by the absence of the NCA. <BR /> <BR />The NCA's international reach, expertise and specialism in relation to particular crime types, such as major financial crime and the rapidly growing area of cybercrime, offers the PSNI a level of support and all of us in Northern Ireland a level of protection that we need. They have also made clear how the absence of the NCA in operations relating to devolved policing has meant the diversion of PSNI resources into areas where the NCA could have brought its resources to bear. Work that the NCA would willingly do is having to be done by a diminishing number of PSNI officers.”
“I am happy to support the motion. The need for the extension of the NCA into the devolved area is self-evident. The current Chief Constable, his predecessor, the Deputy Chief Constable and all the assistant chief constables have articulated in the strongest possible terms the detriment that is being caused to the fight against organised crime, to the protection of children and to the seizure of criminal assets. In briefings to the Policing Board and in media interviews, they have set out real instances where their inability to work with the NCA on the ground in Northern Ireland has left people exposed. Sometimes, the exposure is direct, where criminality that the NCA could help tackle has not been acted upon as effectively as it could.”
“I thank the Minister for his answers so far. Will he give us an assurance that this prison and all prisons will be run on the basis of safety for all prisoners and staff and the community and not on the basis of what prisoners, politicians or the media attempt to dictate?”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. She knows that there is already a problem in trying to get people away from the Kingspan Stadium. When Casement eventually becomes a reality, transport will clearly be a major problem there with the increase in its capacity. Does she agree that this is a matter that needs to be addressed now, rather than later, when the problem actually arises? Perhaps she should be talking to Minister Kennedy and even to Minister Durkan about the taxi service.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Ceist uimhir a trí.”
“I thank the Minister for that positive response. Will she advise us on possible European action against us for infraction? Are we on course to avoid that or, if not, how much is it liable to cost?”
“How big is the financial pressure on the legal aid budget and, therefore, his entire departmental budget? What would be the implications if the Executive and the Assembly did not support him when he brings forward further measures to tackle the issue?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Does she not agree that the proposal does not affect the right of parents in that area, if they want Irish-medium education, to have a choice? St Patrick's does not offer a full-immersion Irish-medium system, whereas this one will. It is really up to the parents. It is parental choice.”
“What I said was that we do not know what the effect would be on the intake of the primary Irish-medium sector in that area if parents were reassured by the fact that there was a post-primary option available so that those kids could continue their education at the second level.”
“No. Miss McIlveen talked about a narrow ideological view: I hope that I am not accused of that. I am trying to be balanced. Nobody will change their mind about this or about the value of preserving the Irish language, a language that, I may say, was saved from extinction by Presbyterians a couple of centuries ago, as well as by what you might call nationalists or Irish speakers. For those of us who recognise the history and the contribution that it has made to our everyday speech, our townland names and our street names, along with Ulster Scots, we think that the proposal is worthy of support. Therefore, we will oppose the motion, which is no surprise, and we will oppose the amendment.”
“I do not see it as discrimination. Discrimination would be if it was not allowed to be established, given the governmental obligation to provide, facilitate, encourage and, indeed, promote this type of education. <BR /> <BR />There is nothing surprising here. Nobody in the House will change their mind.”
“<BR /> <BR />There is an unknown factor in not knowing how many parents are currently reluctant to commit to Irish-medium primary, and we will see what the effect of that is over the years. I draw the comparison with Coláiste Feirste, which was established in 1991 with something like 15 pupils: it now has 650. It is a performing school; it does well. This year, as you said, it has the accolade of being the highest-performing secondary school in Belfast, which is good. I am sure that, at that time, we listened to the same arguments. I was not here, but some of you probably were. I believe that the time is right to establish another similar school, in line with Executive policy to facilitate and encourage the sector.”
“I would not know offhand, but I will take your word for it. <BR /> <BR />If this were a proposal for an ordinary secondary school, it would not go anywhere in any other sector. It clearly would not be going ahead. But it is not a proposal for that; it is a proposal for only the second post-primary Irish-medium full-immersion school in Northern Ireland. Within its reasonable catchment area, there are at least five potential Irish-medium feeder primary schools and perhaps six or seven, as, I think, Mr Ó hÓisín said. Geographically, it is proposed for as good a location as anywhere in Northern Ireland. It is an area of proven interest in the Irish language.”
“We do not know what the demand will be and how the demand for primary education in Irish medium may be affected by the fact that there will be a post-primary school well remote from Belfast in an area where there is considerable interest already in the Irish language.”
“I thank Mr McCartney for his intervention. I have seen the information that was in the information pack, which is fairly detailed. Bear with me. I might surprise you. <BR /> <BR />The most urgent projects have to come forward first, and, by any normal comparison, this one would not be on that list. Various boards have advised against it, but I notice that CnaG has been very supportive. That is perhaps the body that should be listened to in this. I also think that the inspectorate and, in fact, all the contributors to those reports were fairly balanced in their view. They made the good points as well as the bad. The inspectorate in particular agreed that the proposal involved considerable work and thinking on how to build on preschool and primary Irish-medium provision, and that is perhaps at the heart of this.”
“As we know, he has established a scoring matrix to make sure that the most urgent projects come forward first. By any normal comparison method, it is doubtful that Coláiste Dhoire would be high on the list. The Western Board and possibly the Northern Board, together with the inspectorate, have advised the Minister against the proposal, as have his Department and the ministerial advisory group.”
“I apologise to Mr Kinahan for not being here when he moved the motion. I am sure that it was well worth listening to, but I was detained elsewhere. <BR /> <BR />I will deal with the DUP amendment first: we will not support it. That will hardly surprise anybody, and I will not waste time on it. It is disappointing that the DUP has swung so abruptly away from a long-standing commitment to supporting IM and integrated education, but it is not really a surprise. <BR /> <BR />The motion has merit in its expression of concern about the decision, mainly on the grounds of sustainability and affordability. There is no doubt about the major shortfall in capital funding availability. A long list of schools at various stages of development has plans for new builds or extensions. The Minister has difficult decisions to make on prioritisation.”
“I apologise, but it is quite hard to hear the Minister down here today for some reason. I think he said that a 12·5% rate of corporation tax would produce an estimated productivity gain of 5·9%. How does he square that? Does he agree with his ministerial colleague, the Minister of Enterprise, who gave the opinion recently that the introduction of corporation tax here would produce a £3,000 per annum increase in the average wage packet?”
“I thank the Minister for the very positive statement. It refers to a new brand to support Tourism Northern Ireland and Tourism Ireland, the development of complementary marketing strategies and targeted advertising. Does that mean that there has been room for improvement and that it might signify a more formalised joint approach between North and South?”
“it would be a good idea also to assess the performance of the Department of Education, which is in sore need of a root-and-branch reform?”
“Does he agree with me that since, in his own words, Health and Education account for 65% of the total resource payments and the:”
“I welcome the £63 million. It will obviously be a big relief to hard-pressed principals everywhere throughout the education system. However, in the Minister's own words, it is a good example of finding:”
“It is a bit historical now, Minister, but you did comment that you were the only Minister who managed to take difficult decisions around school closures and that type of thing, and, by implication, that you had done something about the arrangement of the school estate. So, how come we still have 60,000 empty desks?”
“— in education as in so many other aspects of our activities.”
“For now, I join others in asking the Minister to protect classroom practice, but it must go beyond that: we should be talking about the cost of division —”
“<BR /> <BR />Since I joined the Education Committee in 2007 — eight years ago — we have had budget discussions galore. We have gone through two attempts at ESA, sustainable schools, area-based planning, sharing promotion, imbalance of funding between primary and secondary, integration growth being restricted and, in every aspect, the failure to take hard decisions. We now have more empty desks than in 2007, I fancy, and a real budget crisis that is, as it stands, deeply damaging to individual schools. <BR /> <BR />We will support the motion as amended by the SDLP. If that does not pass, we will be happy to support the motion as it stands. We are at a watershed in education. Hard decisions had to be taken to bring about the Stormont House Agreement, so I hope that the same attitude will trickle down to the Education Department.”
“Do those who point to sharing as some kind of panacea not recognise that sharing also comes at a cost and that Atlantic Philanthropies will not be there for ever? <BR /> <BR />Are we content with the situation? I have every sympathy with teachers in schools at the moment who face the prospect of losing their job, but should we continue, through our teacher training arrangements, to produce more teachers than we need? Frankly, I doubt it. Do the advocates of shared campuses such as Lisanelly — massively expensive new builds — not have any doubts that it might be better to take the hard decisions and merge schools instead? It would certainly normally be more cost-effective to have one school instead of two. It would be easier to deliver the curriculum, and it would have obvious societal benefits.”
“I can see the Minister shaking his head and Mr Hazzard too, and I heard the figure of 80% versus 59%. It is probably a bit more complicated than that, but, at the same time, I think there is a difference. It indicates inefficiency in the Department; that is what it boils down to. <BR /> <BR />Maybe the new Education Authority, which we all welcome, can do something to rectify that imbalance, but I think that the problems go a bit deeper than that. Do we really think that the separation of our children into sectors and the failure to implement area planning in any kind of meaningful, cross-sectoral way does not have a cost? Do we think that the determination of the Catholic authorities to resist any cross-sectoral or integrated solutions does not have a financial consequence?”
“Would it be DEL, for instance, or the Department of Justice? I have a particular interest. Just this morning, I heard the Finance Minister confirming that he wants to try to find some more money for DEL to protect the situation around universities. Every Department will have its defence mechanisms and its priorities. <BR /> <BR />We do not think that throwing more money at education or ring-fencing it, as Mr Sheehan said, is necessarily the way forward. To our minds, the problem is not the amount of money in the education budget but how it is spent. It is a fact that others have referred to — I think the Committee Chair referred to it — that education gets more money over here per capita but spends the lowest amount of any part of the UK on actual school provision through the aggregated schools budget. I heard the figures.”
“The Member makes a fair point. I suggest that Strandtown is earmarked for around 2024, because that is the way that things are going at the moment. <BR /> <BR />The Sinn Féin amendment is different, in that it refers to the need for a significant uplift in the final Budget settlement and calls on the Executive to ensure that protecting education is a priority. Given that the Minister's party is one of the two that make the decisions in this place, it would not be a surprise if the DUP and Sinn Féin were to find some extra allocation for education, but at whose expense? Which other Department can afford to give up part of its budget? That is what is involved.”
“However I doubt that he has been faced with a funding situation — a crisis — on the scale currently proposed, with a draft budget indicating a 7% reduction in the aggregated schools budget and more huge reductions in the allocation for capital expenditure. I wonder how long the schools that have been listed for new builds or rebuilds in the past four years will have to wait, or even whether there is any point in listing more in each financial year. We appear to be long on announcements but a bit short on laying foundations.”
“I support the motion and the SDLP amendment, although it would not have been difficult to support both amendments. However, you have to stop somewhere, so we will run with the SDLP one. To me, the motion and the amendments effectively all say the same thing anyway, although the Sinn Féin one is slightly different from the other two, but not by much. <BR /> <BR />All three call on the Minister to ensure that protecting front-line services must be his absolute priority and that maximum devolution of the available budget to school level is vital. I fancy that the Minister will be able to confirm that he feels that he has been doing that all along, and, indeed, he confirmed it during Question Time.”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. Will she examine how three-year budgeting and, perhaps, endowment programmes could be used to make the funding regime more sustainable in the longer term?”
“I thank the Minister for that very detailed answer. He referred to the Stormont House Agreement. Is there any aspect of that agreement on how to progress welfare reform that could not have been agreed at any stage over the last couple of years?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. I may have missed the first part of it, where he mentioned the Hillsborough roundabout. Is that to be included in the proposed amendments? Does he have any idea at the moment of the priority that will be given to the particular junctions, such as those closest to Belfast, which carry the most traffic?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Ceist uimhir a haon to the Minister. Question number 1.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. What is his assessment of the consequences of failing to agree a new fully funded and article 2-compliant system for dealing with the past?”
“I thank the deputy First Minister for his answer. Is it the intention that profits earned on production in Northern Ireland will be taxed in Northern Ireland, and, flowing from that, does he anticipate that we may have the option of an increased tax on diverted profits along the same lines that the Chancellor has suggested for Great Britain?”
“I do not think that we will be able to proceed with all three in any foreseeable timescale, so I hope that Dungiven will be given priority because it is the most important. <BR /> <BR />I look forward to hearing the Minister's comments.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am a fairly regular traveller on the alternative route to Strabane/Londonderry, which is the M1 and the beautiful new section of road that takes you right through to Ballygawley. A few years ago, the bypass at Newtownstewart was added. The changes in that journey — not necessarily the speed but the ease — must be making a difference to the region that that road touches. I am sure that the same thing would apply to the A6. <BR /> <BR />The A6 should be the premier route in Northern Ireland. The only competition is perhaps the A1 to Dublin, although some might not agree. Those are the two major routes. Mr Campbell said that the Minister has a difficult task, and I acknowledge that, but, at some stage, we will have to be able to proceed with some of these plans.”
“However, in terms of public health and congestion easement to reduce journey times, the obvious choice would be Dungiven. That would have the added bonus of honouring a promise made to the population of Dungiven by, I fancy, just about every Minister in the last 40 years, including some present. <BR /> <BR />I respectfully suggest that both schemes — all three if you count Randalstown and Castledawson as two schemes — should at least be at shovel-readiness. Perhaps they are; the Minister can advise me. When the finance is available, Dungiven should be given priority, and a long-standing problem would be solved, to the relief of residents and motorists alike.”
“Are there any remaining land acquisition or planning issues? Hopefully, there are not. <BR /> <BR />That brings me to the amendment, which is fine in itself, but it raises a question about priorities, which others have hinted at. If finance becomes available, the question must surely be that, if Dungiven is ready to proceed, and if the two sections either side of Toomebridge, particularly the section that I call Moneynick, from the end of the M22 up to Toomebridge, are also ready, which would have priority if they could not all proceed? It would be very nice if they could all proceed. <BR /> <BR />On the grounds purely of road safety and accident history, the M22 to Toomebridge would probably be the favourite, followed by the bit from Toome to Castledawson.”
“I fancy that stricter emission controls would probably have reduced the problem, but that improvement has been countered by the massive increase in the volume of traffic, so I do not think that it has improved overall. That is before you start to talk about the acknowledged problems of vibration, noise, congestion and general nuisance. I would certainly not like to live in the lower end of Dungiven — between the river and the junction halfway up the town — where the pollution must be at its worst. <BR /> <BR />It is not clear from the papers I have read what state of readiness the Dungiven bypass is at. I would appreciate the Minister telling us whether it is ready to proceed if funds permit. Is there still a problem with the illegal dump that apparently lies on or close to the route?”