Trevor Lunn
Lagan Valley · Independent · Northern Ireland
“I know what I am going to do: I am not quite sure what he is going to do. <BR /> <BR />In discussion at the Committee, we had submissions from the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS) and the Catholic Schools' Trustee Service.”
“They are relaxed about this. I know that they have some concerns about the Catholic ethos of their schools, but I cannot believe that the admission of non-Catholic teachers into Catholic schools will change the ethos of those schools at all. There is more of an obligation on teachers coming in to accept that ethos and run with it.”
“All that I can say to that is that the women, mostly, and couples who go to an abortion clinic, advisory service, hospital or private hospital are also entitled to freedom of movement and freedom of action. They are entitled to that under the law that was brought in by the British Government.”
“. Not yet, anyway. We have had this Bill from Chris, two Bills from the Green Party, and I forget the others. It has been a good day and, as others have said — yes, Pat Catney, of course, my constituency colleague, as well — it indicates what the Assembly is capable of.”
“The other day, we talked about the Brook advisory clinic and all the shenanigans around it. Most people here are too young to remember that, but it was effectively the same issue. <BR /> <BR />We are where we are. I hope that the Bill will pass; I am sure that it will now, judging by the tenor of the House. It will be another step.”
“<BR /> <BR />Back in 2015, I decided to visit the Marie Stopes clinic. I wanted to find out exactly what it was about. That year, the police had been called to the front of the clinic 200 times.”
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“The case for a bypass for Dungiven is well made. It has been a sound case for at least 40 years. A bit like Mr Hussey, I remember my weekly drive to Londonderry or Derry as a young insurance man all those years ago. I remember it mostly with affection, but that affection did not extend to Dungiven or Toomebridge because they were the bottlenecks. Thankfully, one has been solved but Dungiven still has not. <BR /> <BR />Even in those days in the early 1970s, there was a traffic jam in Dungiven every morning and evening. Concern was being expressed even then about air pollution and the potential risk to the health of the population, and those concerns remain.”
“I suppose, as I do not come from the north-west, that I rise on behalf of the rest of the country to support the motion and the amendment, which introduces another aspect to the A6 debate without diluting the original motion. I must say, having listened to other Members, that, for once, I am quite glad that I live in Lisburn, where we do not appear to have these massive traffic problems unless we try to get here, but that is for another day.”
“Again, on the back of Mr Ross's question, in which he seemed to suggest that there could be a brand new body to oversee these matters, the fact is that we have the Independent Financial Review Panel. The problem is that it is a bit short on teeth. Does the Member agree that perhaps an expansion of that panel's powers to include investigative powers and the ability to issue more than one determination in a mandate might be the way forward?”
“We are up to about 20% generation from renewables, and there are six years to go and an awful lot of applications and interest in the pipeline. If we get the system and the processes right, I certainly hope that the target is doable. I will watch with interest over the next six years. We support the report's recommendations.”
“Indeed, there seems to be no reason at all for delay, and, as someone pointed out, there is a good example in Northern Ireland at Slieve Kirk. I strongly suggest that NIE work with providers to draw up a list of approved companies for contestable delivery of grid connections. I also endorse the recommendation about a heat map that should be updated annually and regularly so that people can have a much clearer idea of where the opportunities arise.”
“Much of the grid was constructed in the first place over half a century ago, and that is perhaps the timescale that we need to consider with much of our electricity network policy. Therefore, I very much see why the Department and, indeed, the Executive need to be clear about their long-term vision and strategy. <BR /> <BR />On the basis of the evidence in the report and that presented in Committee that I have seen, I support all the recommendations, and the recommendation that I support most strongly is the introduction of contestability. It seems to be an appropriate hybrid solution that would introduce greater efficiency to the overall system, and not having it there puts us at a clear disadvantage with the rest of the UK.”
“I appreciate that the issue is complex and that parallels with elsewhere do not necessarily apply, but I will be interested to hear the outcome of the System Operator for Northern Ireland's consultation on the so-called hybrid solution. It is good to hear that applications for wind turbines have increased by about 50% in just two years, and, if I understand it correctly, applications for solar panels are also increasing. It is important now to have systems and procedures in place that can deal with what we hope will be an ongoing rising demand for those in the rest of the decade. <BR /> <BR />I also note that there is a requirement for a longer-term vision, to which Mr Kinahan referred.”
“Looking on from outside the Committee, it seems to me that one issue is that NIE's functions have slightly changed, but its processes have not changed to match that. It does not seem to have the right focus on the client and, on occasions, seems almost obstructive. Why, for example, should a developer be able to tee off from an existing line in Great Britain but not in Northern Ireland, and why can a budget estimate not be given at the same time as capacity is reserved? As ever, communication is essential. Maybe there are good reasons for those problems, but NIE has certainly not declared them. <BR /> <BR />It is also clear that, while planning applications are now being processed more quickly, our problem remains that planning requirements have changed, but planning processes have not changed with them.”
“It seems astonishing that, on a windy island, the cost of wind turbines is so high, mainly because the cost of grid connection can be up to 10 times the proportion of the cost in England and five times that in Ireland or Scotland. The variation in the cost of quotations also seems to be unbelievable. Somehow, systems and processes that have been put in place elsewhere have clearly not been put in place in Northern Ireland, and it is hard to disagree with the view implicit in the report and explicit in one recommendation that the Department's vision and strategy are unclear and somehow lacking.”
“I always have to say on these occasions that it is mighty difficult to talk about a report that you have seen only just this morning because you do not have a Committee place. When Mr McGlone moved the motion, he said that Committee members had much to learn. I can tell you that it is 10 times worse when you are not a Committee member. Having looked at the report, I can say that it seems to be highly competent, and I support the recommendations therein, with the caveat that they are complex and require a lot of work to be done very quickly. In fact, I wonder whether some of the recommendations should be prioritised, given the urgency of the situation. <BR /> <BR />Clearly, something has gone wrong in Northern Ireland.”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. Does she agree that those figures will help the case for her negotiations with the Department for Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) when it comes to discussing the re-funding of those programmes?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Ceist uimhir a haon. Question 1.”
“The Minister has prompted me to declare an interest of a sort, although not in the particular age range that I am going to refer to. I understand that around 27% of journeys undertaken under the scheme are by people in the age range of 60 to 65, some of whom are probably still working. Without advocating the termination of the scheme, is the Minister prepared to even consider a possible adjustment to the minimum age, perhaps to 65? I understand that that might save between £7 million and £10 million.”
“Mr McCallister is at his normal game of blaming the Alliance Party for everything. The Committee decided that it would accept accelerated passage. In fairness, the only voice against it came from the Ulster Unionists. I think that if we had talked from now until next Christmas, we would not have got anything further in the Bill than what we got.”
“Even if the Bill is imperfect, it is better than what we had yesterday, so I happily support its passage.”
“If I may so, the Ulster Unionists have espoused it time and time again but do not seem able to vote for it. The DUP does not espouse it quite so much, but its attitude seems to be at odds with that of its leader. The Minister's party managed to vote in favour of an Alliance amendment at Consideration Stage and against it at Further Consideration Stage, even though it was exactly the same wording. I pay tribute to the SDLP, which has finally come out clearly in favour of integrated education. I particularly welcome Mr Eastwood's comments at Consideration Stage and Mrs Kelly's reported comments at the weekend, which give us a wee bit of hope that we need only change the hearts and minds of three other parties and we will be there. <BR /> <BR />This is a good day for education.”
“That is the way legislation goes. I accept what just about everybody, except the DUP, has said: it is a pity that there was no room for community representatives on the board. As the Minister said, we will perhaps have to revisit that at some stage. It is something desirable that we had to leave out because of the need to obtain a compromise, but, hopefully, we can come back to it. <BR /> <BR />Speaking as an advocate for the integrated sector, I think it a pity that, under the Bill, the shared education movement now has slightly preferential status over the integrated movement. Perhaps that, too, is for another day. Integrated still has its protection under the 1989 Order. We have also at least been able to clarify some attitudes around the Chamber, particularly to integrated education.”
“Like everybody else, I pay tribute to them and to the staff of the Department, who have soldiered on trying to fill the vacuum, frankly, of our failure to do something like what we are doing today. <BR />It is fair to say that none of us got all of what we wanted — in fact, some of us got hardly anything that we wanted — in the Bill, but, for all that, it is a good day. At least we will have a single authority and proper representation on that authority. It is good that people have decided to accept that the smaller sectors need a voice just as much as the bigger sectors. We now have integrated, Irish-medium and the controlled sector body, which is an equally good thing, and representation for the voluntary grammars and the controlled grammars, which was in one of our original amendments that people did not accept.”
“Like everybody else, I welcome the passage of the Bill. For those of us who have been with this since 2007, including the Minister, the current Chair and, indeed, the previous Chair, who has just left the Chamber, this is quite a good day. It is the first time that we have been able to discuss the final passage of significant education legislation in seven and a half years. As the Chair said, it is third time lucky, even if it is a bit light compared with what some of us would have preferred. It will bring some sort of order to the administration of the education system and is long overdue. The five boards have struggled manfully in the last few years with diminished resources, staff acting up and all the rest of it.”
“As for Mr Eastwood's comment that there has been a level of compromise, it is called war-weariness really, but "compromise" will do. As for what 'The Nolan Show' says about it, does anybody really care? We will support all the amendments.”
“Frankly, I do not know if they are the same size or not in terms of pupil population, but there is probably not much in it, so equal representation is OK. All of us, except for the DUP, would have been able to live with a slightly bigger board to bring in whatever balance was necessary plus some proper community representation, but it is not to be. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 18 is the one about conferring power on the Department to make grants to sectoral bodies. I am surprised that it does not say, "the controlled sector body", to be honest. I think the DUP might give you a sign, Minister, to hang in your office just to remind you that you have to make grants to controlled sector bodies. However, it is fair enough.”
“Well, there was something missing, I think. <BR /> <BR />Any of those would probably have been a better result, frankly, than amendment No 11, which we are looking at now. It is a fair point to make that at least five parties around the Chamber would prefer that there was space for community representation on the board. I am glad to see the DUP compromising, because we are all a bit war-weary now, and we need to move on and get something done. What we have here is the best result we can achieve without facing another petition of concern. That is what it means, but we are where we are. Amendment No 11 gives everybody something and not everybody all they wanted. <BR /> <BR />Amendment Nos 9 and 10 are on the back of that. Look at the two sectors involved: the controlled sector and the maintained sector.”
“We will support all the amendments. Amendment No 5, on the effective implementation of a greater use of affirmative resolution, is fine with us. We have no problem with that or with amendment No 6. <BR /> <BR />I do not think that anybody has a particular problem with amendment Nos 9 and 10, but they link in to amendment 11, which is what I really want to talk about. Any of the amendments that were proposed the last time by Sinn Féin or the SDLP, may I say, in particular — and Steven Agnew's, which I think was withdrawn because it was slightly defective —”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. I do not want to bring that wrath down on my head or anyone else's, but it is an interesting problem. I am not sure whether it has cropped up before. Fair enough, you should not be able to bring an amendment straight back again at Further Consideration Stage, but if the argument is that it was defeated at Consideration Stage on a cross-community basis, that means that it was defeated by a petition of concern. If it had been defeated by majority vote as well, we would probably not be making the point, but it was not. It was passed by majority vote. Frankly, I think that there is something there for the Speaker's Office and the Bill Office to think about for the future.”
“There is, however, nothing to prevent you bringing something forward.”
“I want to return to the point he made about Irish-medium education. He knows perfectly well that we support the Irish-medium sector. If something is missing from the Bill that could be addressed by an amendment in relation to Irish-medium schools, I am at a loss as to why Sinn Féin did not bring it forward. The reason we did not bring it forward was that we knew it would arouse the ire of your colleagues opposite. There is no point in us trying to put through an amendment on the Irish-medium and integrated sectors knowing that the inclusion of the Irish-medium sector is going to drag it down. So, it was maybe a forlorn hope in our case that perhaps your colleagues opposite would see a bit of sense and run with the integrated. I feel sorry for the Irish-medium sector, but that is the way it is.”
“I think that that is a shame. <BR /> <BR />I will stop there, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker. I am disappointed today but hardly surprised.”
“Yes. I thank Mr Agnew for making that point for me. <BR /> <BR />I am nearly done, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker. I just cannot help thinking that it is a pity. The big buzz around this place at the moment is for a shared future, for Together: Building a United Community (T:BUC). We have strategies galore for trying to bring people together, at adult level and, particularly, at childhood and school level. <BR /> <BR />If this place is going to make progress, one of the things that we have to do is let our children get to know each other, at an early age, and remove so many of the taboos and barriers that we all know about, and that we all profess that we are trying to break down. Yet the most obvious measure, bringing children together into the same school to be educated together, seems to cause this kind of disagreement.”
“I thank the Minister for his clarification; however, it is something that we are not going to agree about. I accept that integration has had that protection and that there has been such an obligation on his Department for 25 years; but what has it meant? Suddenly, this whole concept of shared education has come over the horizon. Millions of pounds have been thrown at it and more millions are to come. It suddenly has the status of promotion, facilitation and encouragement. I cannot give you a dictionary definition of the word "promotion", though I did in 2011, if you want to look at Hansard. "Promote" means more than "facilitate" and "encourage". One of the things that it means is "actively encourage". That is what "promote" means.”
“I know that it was non-binding, but the Assembly voted to include that word in relation to integrated education by 39 votes to nil. Nobody voted against. <BR /> <BR />There will be a clear difference now, because today's vote will mean that there will be a greater obligation on the Department and the authority to promote sharing, and it will be a more onerous obligation than that which they have "to encourage and facilitate" integrated education. I know that the Minister has frequently said that he intends to honour his obligations in respect of integration. I have no reason to doubt that he means what he says, but I think that the proof will be in the performance over the next few years. As it stands, there is a different approach to and a different obligation on the two sectors, if I can call "sharing" a sector.”
“Today, there is no petition of concern, but it is still not going to pass because you have changed your minds. I really do wonder what is going on. I am perfectly happy for somebody to tell me at some stage before I sit down. <BR /> <BR />Mr Kinahan actually talked about there now being a preferential position for the integrated sector. That is not the case. The integrated sector is going to be the one that does not have the word "promote" attached to the departmental obligation. There will be a departmental obligation even to promote the community use of schools and shared education, but not, it appears, integrated education, even though, as I said at a previous stage, the Assembly voted, in 2011 on a private Member's motion, to include the word "promote".”
“<BR /> <BR />The Bill Office told us, and evidently the Speaker's Office agreed, that, because the Minister had produced his own amendment, amendment No 1, it was in order for us to re-amend that and bring in the word "promote", which is what we have tried to do. There is no fancy parliamentary manoeuvring, sleight of hand or smart tactics here. The Minister may have said before lunchtime that it was slightly improper, but it is nothing of the sort. It is allowed under the rules. It does not look as if we will be successful, but that does not mean that we should not try. <BR /> <BR />I cannot help thinking that it is a bit too easy for Sinn Féin on this occasion. The last time, Sinn Féin voted with us on this matter knowing that there was a petition of concern and it was not going to pass anyway.”
“I am sure that the Minister has taken the correct advice on that, and that is fair enough with us. <BR /> <BR />That leads me inevitably to amendment Nos 2 and 3. The reason that amendment Nos 2 and 3 have come back is that the Bill Office and the Speaker's Office have allowed us to do that. It was a slight surprise, but they perhaps accepted the argument that, although the motion was defeated in cross-community terms the last time, as the Minister said earlier, it was not actually defeated by a majority of the House. The majority voted for it. It was only by one vote, but a majority voted for it, including, as I said earlier in an intervention to Mr Hazzard, the Sinn Féin Members, who have now decided to vote against the very same thing.”
“Originally, we thought that we were not very much in favour of that, mainly because we had hopes, perhaps unreasonable, that our amendment Nos 2 and 3 would be passed, in which case it would have affected integrated education as well. However, they are clearly not going to be passed. We see no reason to disagree with the Minister on amendment Nos 7 and 8, so we will support those. <BR /> <BR />Amendment Nos 1 and 4 seem to be just a change from the exercising its functions wording to:”
“I notice that the Minister, in his amendments, has introduced a change of words from "will" to "shall". I thought that that was interesting, so I did a wee bit of research this morning. "Shall" actually has more legal effect than "will". Legally, under the Interpretation Act (Northern Ireland) 1954, "shall" means "must". That is the correct use of terminology, so I have no problem with amendment No 12. Amendment No 15 is the same as amendment No 12 only in relation to the community use of schools. <BR /> <BR />In amendment Nos 7 and 8, the Minister wants to defer commencement of the clauses on shared education until there is a proper definition of sharing in education.”
“I will go through the amendments in reverse order so that I will be well warmed up before I get to amendment Nos 2 and 3. Amendment Nos 16, 17, 13 and 14 are John McCallister's amendments about representation of the membership and the different school sectors on the standing committee on sharing and the community use of schools. Like others, I am slightly puzzled by these, but Mr McCallister will no doubt enlighten us in due course. I do not see any harm in them — on the face of it, there is nothing to vote against — but we will listen with interest to his learned explanation. <BR /> <BR />The only thing that I would say about amendment No 12 is that it just refers to section 2(3) rather than repeating the words "promote, facilitate and encourage".”
“I am glad that we have got to this stage. I am also glad that we are having a petition of concern-free day, which is very refreshing after the 10-spot the last time. The only reason I can think of for the DUP not lodging a petition of concern against amendment Nos 2 and 3 is that they know perfectly well that Sinn Féin will not support them so they will fall anyway.”
“Yes, you did. Your party voted for amendment No 1 at Consideration Stage.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I just want to make the obvious point that Sinn Féin has done a complete about-turn on this. At Consideration Stage, you voted for exactly the same wording as we are now putting forward.”
“What does the Minister think the impact will be on Invest NI's ability to attract jobs in the future if budget cuts force the local universities and colleges to shrink in size?”
“Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. The Member has made his point; I do not have time to dwell on it. <BR /> <BR />As I was saying, Ms Cahill has shone a light into a very murky world. It is a world, evidently, where the rights of an innocent victim are secondary to the interests of the organisation, be it the IRA or Sinn Féin. I hope that she achieves the closure that she deserves. I hope that the PPS can find a way through this to fully investigate the whole sorry saga, including the violence perpetrated on other victims, because it is plain to see that there are a lot of other victims out there. I hope that they can use the opportunity to come forward and that we can bring some closure to a lot of people who deserve it.”
“Maíria Cahill has bravely shone a light into the murky world of a terrorist organisation; a world of silence, self-protection and misplaced loyalty.”
“We will, therefore, support the motion and the SDLP amendment, which makes a better job of the proposal entirely.”
“I think that we all know the answer to that. Thirdly, why did Maíria Cahill withdraw her evidence? I think, by the time the police investigation came along, she was probably a girl of about 20, still very vulnerable and put under intolerable pressure by the republican movement. She buckled under that pressure and it is to her credit that she has come back again. <BR /> <BR />Turning to the motion, the main point being made is about the actions, or lack of action, by Jennifer McCann. Ms McCann was not an MLA or a junior Minister in 2005, when it seems she was in contact with Maíria Cahill, but she had, however, been a prominent IRA member, and it seems probable that she knew about the case long before that. I do not know the type of investigation being proposed, but there is enough in this matter to merit a fuller inquiry.”
“To suggest to someone in those circumstances that some rape victims — by implication perhaps including Maíria Cahill — actually enjoyed it, is utterly disgusting, although if the records of Twitter and other media are to be believed, Mr Adams does hold views on those matters that the rest of us would not want to be associated with. <BR /> <BR />Plainly, the republican movement has tried to cover up those events and silence Maíria Cahill. It is very much to her credit that she is strong enough to carry on, and I wish her well. <BR /> <BR />There are questions. First, why would the IRA wish to protect a rapist, whose victim was a member of a very prominent republican family, just because he was himself a member and volunteer? Secondly, what would have happened to him if he had not been a member of the republican movement?”
“Maíria eventually made a complaint to the police, but the case collapsed as she withdrew her evidence. The first question there would be why. I will come back to that. <BR /> <BR />There had been an IRA investigation of whatever kind. The words "interrogation" and "kangaroo court" come to mind, but it certainly seems to have included a forced confrontation between Maíria and Mr Morris in the year 2000. We have the version of Gerry Adams that he organised that and other meetings out of concern for Maíria's welfare; a suggestion that, frankly, would be laughable if it was not so serious.”
“We will support the motion and the amendment. First, I would like to offer my sympathy and support to Maíria Cahill. She is the victim in this matter, and I admire her determination and attitude through a dreadful ordeal. I have no reason to doubt the main thrust of her allegation, starting with the original rapes during 1996-97 when she was a girl of 15 and 16. Some of us are fathers of daughters, and I can just imagine the feeling that that would stir in me if it happened to my daughter. <BR /> <BR />Those allegations have long been accepted by most right-thinking people, even in the republican movement, right up to the highest levels. The man who committed the rapes was a prominent republican, Martin Morris, apparently a friend of the Cahill family, perhaps even a distant relative by marriage.”
“For those of us who do not have a natural affinity for the Irish language but who totally respect the right of parents to have their children educated in that particular medium, this is a very welcome report. It sets out the way forward, I think, if it is feasible and affordable. <BR /> <BR />It says to me that roughly 2,800 pupils are denied the opportunity to move into secondary level Irish-medium education and, in the terms used in the report, to achieve their full potential by becoming fluent in two languages and perhaps more. Does that not point to the fact that the needs model that the Department uses is in need of amendment once again, because, as Judge Treacy identified, it needs to take into account the anticipated demand for secondary places in the Irish-medium and integrated sectors?”
“I thank the Minister for her answer so far. However, these fish kills have been going on since time immemorial. One expects a succession of them at this time of year because of the run-off from slurry tanks into rivers. It seems to me that, when you try to sort out what is going on and who is to blame, at least four Departments are involved — your Department, DETI, DARD and the Department of the Environment — but nobody ever seems to get the blame. Will the Minister commit to working with the other Departments to put together something that might produce a more cohesive approach to the problem and a better outcome?”
“I thank the Minister for his statement. There are references to teacher mobility, collaborative programmes in the work of the Irish-medium sector and school youth and teacher exchanges. In the context of cross-border cooperation and even though it is not in the statement, has any progress been made in respect of the border corridor and the possibility of cooperation between schools on either side of the border? He can safely assume that I am talking about St Mary's, Brollagh.”