Máirtín Ó Muilleoir
South Belfast · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“Go raibh maith agat as an cheist sin. I think it must. I followed the Public Accounts Committee under my colleague Mr Swann, and I read the devastating October hearing when Ofgem appeared.”
“While the areas it will investigate will be wide-ranging, it will necessarily include key areas in which there has been huge public interest, including the development and roll-out of the RHI scheme by the then Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment; the signing off of the scheme by the then Department of Finance and Personnel; th…”
“I thank Mr Clarke for that question. I know that Mr Clarke was at the PAC hearing that Robin Swann had the wonderful occasion to chair. I would have paid money to attend that because it was certainly a difficult session for the PAC.”
“In relation to the question asked, I want to speak in particular of the seven months that I have been in the Department of Finance. I have been deeply impressed by the commitment, diligence and alertness of my officials to the RHI scandal. I mentioned previously alerting the Comptroller and Auditor General.”
“Ba mhaith liom buíochas a thabhairt don Chomhalta as an cheist sin. I think that any inquiry will ask what went wrong, where it went wrong, who was accountable and what happened. In that context, I am totally convinced that the decision to involve Ofgem in the RHI scheme was a major mistake. Ofgem has failed.”
“Therefore, I wish to reassure the public by setting out the steps that I think must be taken to ensure absolute openness and transparency. The arrangements I have detailed in this statement are intended to ensure this.”
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“I endorse the approach of Naomi Long, one of those behind a private Member's Bill, who said that there will be a need for collaboration in the time ahead. My intention is to provide the same level of protection to clergy and church bodies as has been included in the legislation on same-sex marriage in other jurisdictions within these islands.”
“I thank the Member for her question. I am in favour of marriage equality. That is why I am determined to make what progress I can in this mandate to put it on the statute book. I would like to proceed by way of an Executive Bill and will, at the earliest opportunity, seek Executive agreement to consult on the issue. <BR /> <BR />I have met the Love Equality consortium on three occasions, as well as the wider LGBT sector. As the Member will know, the consortium has been exploring the possibility of a private Member’s Bill. I have written to the four potential sponsors of such a Bill to advise them of my intentions, and I have offered to meet them.”
“Are they guaranteeing — they have not done so yet — that 9% of the budget for agriculture would come to the North if there is a Brexit?”
“It is almost as if the Alliance Party wants to give me more powers. My influence with Mr Hammond is not just as great as I would like it to be, but I am meeting the Chief Secretary to the Treasury next Monday, along with my counterparts from Wales and Scotland, and we will say that the Treasury needs to make sure that the EU funding, which has been held up a little bit more than any of us would have liked, is expedited. The Member raises the wider question of the receipts in relation to agricultural payments to what he would refer to as the UK. Nine per cent come here. If there is a Barnett consequential, it would be 3%. There are really hard questions there among the many hard questions to the British Government and the Treasury.”
“I thank the Member for her question. If the application is not correct, it would not have passed the steering committees. Some applications have gone back. There is a little bit of space now for people to return. We have asked some people, including councils, to come back with more information and more authoritative analysis of their needs. That will happen in the coming weeks. We have a little bit of space. I have to say to the Member that, although the process has been more rocky than any of us would wish, the criteria are there and applicants will have to make sure that they fulfil the criteria and that the applications are wholly kosher if they expect the letters of offer issued against their bids.”
“It will be useful to hear about their plans from them; to explain to them what has been going on in my Department in our negotiations with London, Brussels and Dublin; and to assure them that we will get the result that they want in this regard.”
“I had a very successful engagement, I thought, with the organisation CO3, which represents chief executives in the third sector, the week before last, to hear their views and their hopes for the future in relation to EU funding. I am focusing, as the Member may be aware, on Peace and INTERREG money. Many other Departments access EU funding, including for the CAP payments and the social fund. That has been a big help to those who are involved in further and higher education, including organisations like the Prince's Trust, which I have also met in this regard. In Antrim, I will bring together people and organisations that have applied for Peace and INTERREG moneys.”
“None of us is under an illusion that there is not some trepidation about the future among bodies and institutions that are applying for funding, but my message has been that we want to expedite applications and that we will fight to make sure that all the money that they are entitled to is paid. I am confident that is where we are. I am also very hopeful that those letters of offer will issue in the short weeks ahead. On 28 October, I will bring together in Antrim many of the groups that have applied for Peace and INTERREG funding to try to give them an update and to make sure that they know that we are working very hard to ensure that the letters of offer are issued and honoured.”
“I had a positive discussion in that regard with the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Paschal Donohoe TD, on Thursday past. The statement by the British Chancellor, Mr Hammond, on 3 October guaranteeing their share of finance to projects approved prior to any Brexit, if it happens, is a welcome development. The clarification provided will facilitate full commitment of expenditure for both PEACE IV and INTERREG programmes and the issue of those letters of offer. <BR /> <BR />I would like to stress to the Member that the assessment process for applicants is continuing at pace and that decisions on funding will continue to be taken. The key steering committee meetings, for example, to consider support for victims and survivors and sustainable transport are scheduled for the coming weeks.”
“Both the PEACE IV and INTERREG Va programmes, which were approved to the value of €269 million and €283 million respectively, have opened for project calls. A number of applications under INTERREG have progressed through to final decision. I am pleased to report that 17 applications have been approved to a value of approximately €120 million. I said that to the House in my last Question Time. Those are all INTERREG projects. <BR /> <BR />The next stage will be for the Special EU Programmes Body, as the managing authority for the programme, to issue letters of offer to successful applicants. My officials are working with their counterparts in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform in Dublin to agree the detail of the letters of offer.”
“I am happy to get the exact figures for the Member. The good news is that our rates arrears are at their lowest since the crash. That is testament to the hard work of LPS. I think that the Member will accept that there is a balance in these matters. We want to make sure that everyone pays the money that is due, and we want to make sure that the burden is shared equally and evenly, but we do not want to close down good businesses because they have difficulty paying their rates. We try hard to get the balance right, including organising a system of payments for those who are in arrears. I am happy to get the exact figures for the Member, but I know from the last briefing that LPS was pleased to report that arrears are at their lowest in six or seven years.”
“When the Member for South Belfast was talking about the detail in rates bills when they are received, he was referring of course to the paper version. It is my wish that we have electronic billing for those who require or request that, and we are moving in that direction. We had a meeting last week about trying to speed up the pace of the digital revolution in Land and Property Services. I believe that we will get there. It also happens that the software system that we are using is quite outdated. I have cleared the funding for a new system that will be 21st century fit for purpose. As part of that, we should be able to introduce e-billing by 2019 or 2020.”
“I could not tell you that off the top of my head, but if you are referring to non-domestic appeals we can certainly find the answer for you.”
“I do not know if bewilderment is too strong, but, if the Member would find it useful for me to meet any of the retail or traders' groups in his constituency to discuss how best we could explain what the rates are for and how they can appeal them or understand them better, I would be happy to do that.”
“I thank the Member for his supplementary. I will make two points. Invariably when you and I meet businesses that have received their rates bill, they are not sure what it is for. There is a lack of information that part of it goes to central government to fund hospitals, fix the roads, encourage investment and so on and that part of it goes to councils to pay for the many services that they provide, including leisure centres and picking up the bins. So, we could do a better job of explaining the global question around rates. We could also do a better job of showing business ratepayers that we appreciate what they are doing.”
“This is complicated for many businesses that receive their rates bill. We go to some lengths to explain the system in the current rates bill, but I welcome any suggestions as to how we could do even better.”
“I thank the Member for his question. Each rate bill issued by Land and Property Services gives detailed information on how the bill was calculated. The bill is essentially based on the statutory valuation of the property; in other words, the capital value of a domestic property or the net annual value of a non-domestic property. The district rate and regional rate relevant to the calculation are quoted individually. The rates assessment is then shown and is calculated by multiplying the capital value or net annual value by the sum of the district rate and regional rate. The time period that the rates bill relates to is explained, with any balance brought forward from previous years shown separately. <BR /> <BR />There is more here for the Member, but I think I am getting to understand his point.”
“I would love to get some rate-paying businesses, institutions or corporate bodies on that site, and I travel in hope in that regard.”
“It could be minimal, but, in England, Scotland and Wales, I believe, it is around 20% or perhaps even less than that. We should have an engagement. We need to make sure that we do not inhibit the great work that charities do; in fact, we want to encourage that work. There may be a way to do that in the time ahead. I have an open mind. I look forward to discussing with the Member and the Assembly the best way forward in that regard, but I have not made my mind up.”
“Thank you for the question. Like the Member, I am a big fan of our charities, but we need to make sure that landlords are not dodging their rates obligation to pay 50% rates on an empty shop by putting in a charity. I know that the Member would not appreciate that either. We need to get the balance right. Charity shops help to bring people into our high streets or small towns, in particular, when times are tough, so we need to make sure that there are a certain number of charity shops. I think that the Member will agree that, when we meet retailers, they say that there has to be a balance. We cannot have our high streets just made up of charity shops. <BR /> <BR />I have engaged with the charity sector, and we may look at a way of saying that they make some contribution.”
“It will take a little research first, and I have asked our friends in Oxford Economics to do more research on the issue.”
“Go raibh maith agat a Chomhalta as an cheist sin I thank the Member for his question. At this stage, it is only a proposal, but some in my Department have been looking at the suggestion of a tax on derelict land. We want to get it right. The wonderful 16-acre Sirocco site in Belfast city centre has been empty since 2005, 2006 or 2007, yet we have managed to get no duty or tax on that land. If there had been an obligation on the banks or on the equity fund, Cerberus, that owned it, that would have spurred the rate of development. Therefore, if we could find a way to tax derelict land and derelict properties — an assessment by LPS, in conjunction with councils, has revealed that, at the last count, there are 1,700 derelict properties — that could be a way of making an extra contribution to the tax base.”
“I thank the Member for her question. We should reform it; it is too general. I am a supporter of the back in business relief, whereby if a building or premises has been empty for a year, we give rate relief to those who occupy it. We should look at what our friends at Ulster University and Oxford Economics refer to as geographical reliefs. Perhaps instead of saying everyone is eligible for a small business rate relief, we should look at how we could zero in and focus on geographical areas. That will take more research and may require some type of test case. <BR /> <BR />The bottom line is this: the rates can be a tough burden. We need to make sure we are not hindering business through the rates. We need them to contribute to the services we provide, but we could do a little more to get the balance better.”
“I would not accept and neither would my colleagues in Land and Property Services (LPS) that every time someone appeals it means there was an error.”
“I thank the Member for her question. I meet business people all the time who benefited from the redistribution of the rates burden. Of course there were losers, but there were also winners. Among those you might refer to as "losers" in this were the large supermarkets and some of the very profitable petrol stations-cum-supermarkets. I agree with that redistribution; it was the right thing to do. More than help and assistance, an enhanced partnership is needed between us and small business in the time ahead to try to produce the strong, vibrant high streets and town centres we want to see. <BR /> <BR />I meet many people who appeal their rates, and I certainly encourage anyone who feels they should appeal to do so.”
“As we move forward, instead of having very broad reliefs, perhaps we could look at targeting support towards businesses that are in independent retail, tourism and hospitality.”
“The Member will not remember this, but there was a Pickie Pool in Bangor, and I am old enough to have been swimming there in my youth, long before I stood with some fame in an election there, in, I believe,1997. <BR /> <BR />The commitment is this: we all know we need to really give a boost to town centres. I travelled to Bangor, and it was a little better than the last time I was there, as is the case with Newry, Dromore and sometimes parts of Belfast. We need a thriving high street and a thriving retail sector, so we have to take actions to support that. I have to tell the Member that I am supportive of the proposition made by our friends in the tourism, hospitality and independent retail sector. I gatecrashed a meeting of the Finance Committee last week when their representatives were presenting, and I am sympathetic to it.”
“I have listened to the business community and councils on the subject. I plan to deliver a step change in responding to this important review. I intend making a statement to the Assembly in the week beginning 14 November setting out a series of options for reforming the system. These changes will need legislation. Therefore, the Member and the Assembly will have a full opportunity to consider and, indeed, shape the reforms, and I hope I can count on the Member's support when we get to that point.”
“The Member will know from his experience in Bangor that, sometimes, businesses go out of business and many businesses blame that on the rates burden. It is about trying to get that balance right. <BR /> <BR />A major area of concern is the continued relevance and affordability of all the reliefs and exemptions we provide through the system. I refer to this as "spray and pray." I do not think it is directed enough, and I will be bringing forward proposals on how we can be more precise with our rate relief and rates assistance.”
“With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I will answer questions 2 and 7 together. <BR /> <BR />I plan to take this work forward in ways that will stimulate economic activity, tackle dereliction and help our struggling high streets. These are my priorities in reforming the non-domestic rating system. The rating system is a distribution mechanism and it does not share the rates out as fairly as it could. I want to make changes so that those who clearly can pay do so and those who need help and assistance can get it. I also want to look at ways of widening the tax base. The Member will be very aware of why we need to bring in additional funds. I also want to widen the tax base to help ease the pain for those who are paying more than they can sustain.”
“If there is a change in our status within the EU, we will respond to all those things positively and constructively and, hopefully, as a corporate body, as an Assembly. <BR /> <BR />I will be in San Francisco at the end of the month to speak to potential investors. We should not say to them that our message is now getting mixed. It should be a very clear message. The Fresh Start Agreement commits us, as an Executive, to introducing corporation tax at 12·5% in April 2018 in a way that is affordable to our budgets, and I am confident in and committed to that goal.”
“I do not know whether the Member read the papers at the weekend, but with the EU referendum and the discussion around a Brexit, there is certainly increasing uncertainty coming out of London, rather than clarity, in relation to the intentions of the British Chancellor. Let us not run away from the challenge in the time ahead, and let us not count our chickens before they are hatched. <BR /> <BR />Regarding the Azores ruling or sunset clauses, if we are speaking to the international business community and asking it to provide a vote of confidence and an investment in us by locating new business here, the last thing we need to do is to have a series of caveats in relation to the corporation tax strategy. We need to stay firm. Mr Hammond has been unclear about the level of corporation tax going forward, so that may change.”
“<BR /> <BR />I can assure him that, in the time ahead, while this is a matter for the Executive fighting to ensure that we get the best deal possible, there is a role for every Member of the Assembly. This was supported by all the parties and signatories to the Fresh Start Agreement. When I meet the Chief Secretary to the Treasury next Monday, I will be saying that we should have this engagement because we need a runway into a reduction in corporation tax and we want to get the maximum benefits for job creation. I hope that those parties that signed up to Fresh Start will remain resolute and supportive of my efforts at that time.”
“I thank Mr Smith. I think that he asked two questions, but I will get to both of them. First, he is right that the Treasury, before it abandoned ship after the EU referendum and stopped talking to us, said that the cost to the block grant would be £270 million. I can assure Mr Smith — I will be asking every Member of the Assembly to support me in this — that when negotiations restart — I am meeting the Chief Secretary to the Treasury next Monday, which will give us a chance to say that we need this concentrated engagement again — I will be saying that it is unacceptable, that it is too high, that it factors in issues that we do not believe are relevant and that we will fight for an affordable, fair and proportionate deal.”
“When it comes to standing with those who are working to create a better society, especially those in the border region who suffered long and hard over many years and are now enjoying the benefits of an open border, I can assure them that we will stand for job creation and with those who will benefit by obtaining employment in the time ahead, and we will stand resolutely for a shared and prosperous society in the future.”
“<BR /> <BR />Let me say this to the Member: I stood on the border at Newry last Saturday with Protestants and Catholics, unionists and nationalists, small business representatives, representatives of the farming sector and representatives of the third sector. People had gathered because they are very worried about the implications or ramifications of Brexit. I looked around for Mr Carroll to see whether he was standing with the workers, the small businesspeople or the social enterprises that have done so much to build up our communities, and he was not there.”
“I thank the Member for his supplementary. The answer to that is no as well. If we equalise corporation tax on the island to 12·5%, that is my intent and my resolve. You can be quite sure of this: when we reduce the level of corporation tax in order to create thousands of new jobs — 32,000, we predict, by 2033 — we will ensure that everyone pays their full taxation commitment. On top of that, I will emphasise to the business sector that it has stewardship of business in this part of the world. If tax is reduced, we want the increased profits to go back into investment, R&D and building better businesses.”
“As an Assembly, as an Executive and as Committees — four Committees are interested in this — we could bring forward good proposals and solutions for how the money might be used to tackle the issues that we talked about. At the core of that is wanting our people to live and enjoy healthier lives. As Mrs Dobson said, your health is your wealth. <BR /> <BR />I will oppose the motion and the amendment, but, at the same time, I am sympathetic to the overall thrust of the debate and hope that we can return to it. I hope that, when we do that, I will have money in the purse to help to deliver the outcomes that people wish to see.”
“If it is not money from America, it will, hopefully, be an addition to our Budget. I suggest — I am sympathetic to this, Ms Lockhart — that we should have an opportunity to discuss holistically how the money could be used to make an impact. Even if we accept that Barnett consequentials go to the centre, perhaps an initiative could be fuelled by the money — a stimulus, as Mr Smith says — to make a real step change in our effort to tackle obesity, especially obesity in children. We can return to that, and I will keep an open mind. <BR /> <BR />In other countries, a sugar tax has been used for different purposes. In some countries, it is used to help welfare programmes, and, in others, it is used to tackle health issues. I want us to craft how a sugar tax is used and not to ape or follow the lead of other jurisdictions.”
“Mr McElduff did something that we do not do enough of: he pointed to the great work of the IFA and the GAA, with their 61 coaches, 571 schools and 39,000 pupils. We should not lose sight of the great work going on to tackle the problems and to rise to the challenges. <BR /> <BR />Mr Lyttle's amendment states that we should ring-fence money for education, and he said that it is a multifaceted problem. We finished off with Mr Lyttle's intervention, which contradicted what he said. It is a multifaceted problem, but the solution that I am being told to implement — if I had the power and the authority — is to focus on education only. I agree with him when he talks about a fitter future for all and partnership. <BR /> <BR />The last Member whom I will reference is Ms Lockhart, who talked about £18 million of new money. We will see what it is.”
“Mr Smith appealed to the Health Minister to focus on health interventions, and he viewed obesity as a health issue. I do not know whether he will vote no, but that seems to be wider than the motion or the amendment. As you say, it should be a first step — I agree with that — rather than a destination. You said that it was a sort of stimulus, and I will come back to that. Mr McGrath said that we should invest in our children, and we all agree with that. I see that investment in many areas. I presume that Mrs Dobson will vote no as well, because she said that it is not a stand-alone issue, and I agree with that. It is an effort across government, yet the motion and the amendment focus on just one area. I agree with her that, if we can work now with young people, it will add years to their lives and save the health service money later on.”
“He made a strong point, repeated by many Members here, that there is not enough physical education in schools. However, as parents, grandparents and people involved in our communities, we should be going to schools that we think do not fulfil the curriculum obligation rather than addressing it here. I do not know how accurate the statistics that were quoted are, but I see evidence in many schools of very strong physical education elements in the curriculum.”
“That is, I think, a very strong point: we do not spend enough on prevention and do not have enough strategies. We are more likely to tackle the effects of unhealthy lifestyles than to intervene at an early stage. That also means that our approach must be broader than education. <BR /> <BR />John O'Dowd — mo chomrádaí, mo chomhghleacaí; my comrade, my colleague — talked about setting the social agenda through taxation. That is what is happening, although it is happening over our heads, and I would much rather that we introduced the sugar tax, decided how it would be implemented and, of course, how it should be spent. I agree with him that it is a matter for the Executive how the tax levy and dividend should be used in the time ahead.”
“Mr McCann made the point that I also make: this is not an issue that can be dealt with by education alone. He pointed out the crucial role of jobs and made a point that goes without contradiction: poverty and ill health are linked. Obesity is a plague on many different sectors of society, but there is no doubt that poverty and ill health are linked. <BR /> <BR />Mr Agnew — I do not know how he will vote — made the point that this is also about families, communities, preschool and children of above school age. The point is that the issue is much wider, and it would not be wise for us to limit ourselves to education when tackling it. <BR /> <BR />The SDLP health spokesperson, Mr Durkan, said that the key to reducing pressure on the health system lies elsewhere.”
“I always assumed that my grant was coming in and that it would be more than it was. It was always spent within a week, when I had planned three months of spending. We do not know whether £18 million or £14 million will come from the sugar tax, so I suggest, Members, that we do not get too far ahead of ourselves. The sugar tax will come in, I think, in 2018, and I noticed Mr Noonan's announcement today that it will be the same year south of the border. It could be 2019 before revenues come in. Before you spend the entire £18 million, £14 million or £10 million, we should hold our budgetary horses. I agree with Mr McElduff that this is not the correct budgetary approach to the Barnett consequentials. <BR /> <BR />I will refer to some of the points made by Members.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention, which may be the last. If he listens to his own speech — I can quote it back — he will see that, as he went on, even he accepted that it is not through education alone that we should tackle this. Of course, it is a serious issue, and that is why we are here today. <BR /> <BR />The other key point is that heretofore we have accepted as an Assembly, and as an Executive, that the Barnett consequentials should not be dedicated to any area before they arrive. It is a tradition that the money comes back to the centre, and the Executive decide how it should be divvied up. I stand by that principle; I think that it is the correct way forward. <BR /> <BR />There is just one other thing, and this used to happen with my student grant.”
“I welcome Mr Durkan's intervention. It is a matter for the Executive, as you should know as a former member, to agree to ring-fencing. I want that power. If anyone here wants to give me the power to ring-fence money on my own, I will accept readily in the morning, but it is a matter for the Executive. I do not think that this Executive, united in common purpose, will agree, when we face massive issues such as obesity, that only one Department should get the money to deal with that.”
“My colleague John O'Dowd, who fully opposed the motion, said that, even if he were still the Education Minister, he would have opposed it. I leave Members to make up their own mind on that matter. <BR /> <BR />Certainly, the days of the silo mentality are gone. We are committed to a Programme for Government — all the parties. No doubt we will have a good discussion around the final draft, but we are all committed to having an outcomes-based government and strategy. That means that we will cross-cut against many Departments, so the day for saying that one Department alone can resolve societal issues is gone. <BR /> <BR />For those reasons, I am obliged to oppose —”
“We would be saying that there is no role here for an intervention by the Health Department for adults through the women's and community groups that we have in places such as the Village or the Shankill Road, where people are making real efforts to combat ill health and obesity. The Department for Infrastructure is making progress with the cycling revolution that Mr Kennedy, who is not with us in the Chamber, ushered in and that is continuing with events such as Ciclovia and other efforts to get people on their bike. <BR /> <BR />For that reason, to have the money go to Education only is to have a silo mentality. I am not suggesting for a minute that, because the DUP holds the Education portfolio, the proposer was suggesting that we should ring-fence the money for Education only.”
“<BR /> <BR />I listened to all the Members, finishing with Mr McCann, and everyone accepts that the problem that we face around obesity, ill health, the excessive use and intake of sugar and sugar-fuelled drinks and foods is multifaceted and that we should have a holistic response to it. If I were to accept that, I would be able to ring-fence money, which would be a great power to have, although I do not actually have that power. However, if we were to accept that we should ring-fence money for Education only, we would be saying that we do not believe that there is a role for some of the great work that Mr Givan in the Department for Communities is doing on sport promotion and the park runs on a Saturday morning.”