Máirtín Ó Muilleoir
South Belfast · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“Go raibh maith agat as an cheist sin. I think it must. I followed the Public Accounts Committee under my colleague Mr Swann, and I read the devastating October hearing when Ofgem appeared.”
“While the areas it will investigate will be wide-ranging, it will necessarily include key areas in which there has been huge public interest, including the development and roll-out of the RHI scheme by the then Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment; the signing off of the scheme by the then Department of Finance and Personnel; th…”
“I thank Mr Clarke for that question. I know that Mr Clarke was at the PAC hearing that Robin Swann had the wonderful occasion to chair. I would have paid money to attend that because it was certainly a difficult session for the PAC.”
“In relation to the question asked, I want to speak in particular of the seven months that I have been in the Department of Finance. I have been deeply impressed by the commitment, diligence and alertness of my officials to the RHI scandal. I mentioned previously alerting the Comptroller and Auditor General.”
“Ba mhaith liom buíochas a thabhairt don Chomhalta as an cheist sin. I think that any inquiry will ask what went wrong, where it went wrong, who was accountable and what happened. In that context, I am totally convinced that the decision to involve Ofgem in the RHI scheme was a major mistake. Ofgem has failed.”
“Therefore, I wish to reassure the public by setting out the steps that I think must be taken to ensure absolute openness and transparency. The arrangements I have detailed in this statement are intended to ensure this.”
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“I thank the Member for her question. Maybe she was not here when the First Minister spoke earlier and outlined that strategy. In fact, I think that that common purpose does unite us, but let me just say again what I have said in the media several times: in my view, the majority of people in the Six Counties voted to remain in Europe, and that vote should be respected and recognised. I do not accept the right of anyone to drag us out of Europe. I will stand by the best interests of the people here and make common purpose with anyone from any part of this House or elsewhere who wants to stand with me in doing that. <BR /> <BR />I think that I will leave Ms Pengelly's comments, since she has left us, except that she did mention the memorandum of understanding.”
“I will in just one minute, when I finish this. He reckoned that Brexit was bad for our neighbours across the water and of course for the South, but he said that, on every index, Brexit would be worse for us because we share a land border with the South of Ireland, depend so much on manufacturing and rely on FDI. Rather than having a sunny outlook, I have not heard even the advocates and those who said that we should vote "Leave" posit such a bright and positive future under Brexit. <BR /> <BR />I will give way.”
“I think that my colleague Chris Hazzard will bring that forward in the time ahead. <BR /> <BR />Ms Pengelly has left us, but I have never heard as sunny a depiction of the future under Brexit as that which she outlined. I do not know what she is on with regard to Brexit, but I think that a lot of people need it because Neil Gibson's Oxford Economics report, which was delivered on the watch of the previous Minister — he may not have commissioned it — said that, in every criterion and outcome, Brexit is bad for us. Mr Gibson of Oxford Economics said that —”
“We have to steady our ship — I missed parts of the Brexit debate — and send out word from everyone in the House that we are determined and resolved to act to safeguard the interests of all our people. <BR /> <BR />I will add one other thing. Mr McNulty is a big fan of the railway network and wants it improved. I am in favour of that as well. I travelled by train from Dublin last week and we stopped in Newry, which has a wonderful train station. I cannot remember the name of the Minister who ensured that it was built. We stopped in Newry, and two ladies beside me from Bangor asked me whether Newry was in the North or South, presumably because they saw the bilingual signage. I was able — I do not know whether it was with regret or not — to tell them that Newry remains in the North. I am in favour of investment in all this infrastructure.”
“We were, of course, anxious and we resisted the policies of Mr Cameron, but I fear that his successors have even less of a clue about how to proceed with building jobs, especially in this part of the world. Maybe they are experts in looking after the south-east or parts of London, but I fear that those who replace Mr Cameron will have even less regard, if that is possible, for the desires of our people to have good housing, sustainable jobs, and a good quality of life. <BR /> <BR />I spoke to the Special EU Programmes Body on Friday and I said that it has to be business as usual and that we cannot give in to fear. The alternative is to sit on our hands and wait for the new Brexit ideologues in London to come forward with ideas.”
“We say to young people who are worried about being cut off from the beauty and bounty of Europe that we will insist that they remain at the heart of Europe. We say to those in the border regions in particular, although it applies to Belfast as well, I can assure you, who fear being cut off from the rest of this island, that we will ensure that our destiny and that of the rest of this island is wedded together in the time ahead. <BR /> <BR />To those in receipt of European or Invest NI funding, who depend on INTERREG or transnational funding in Wales and in both parts of this island, we should say that it is our intention to ensure the continuity and success of their funding. Do we know how this will shake out in the medium or long term? We do not.”
“There is chaos in London and there is absolute uncertainty and a lack of leadership. It is clear from all sides in the aftershocks of Brexit that there is a lack of clarity in London about the way to proceed. However, there is no lack of clarity in this House. We differed on the vote before it happened and we still differ afterwards on its outcome and how it will proceed, but the one thing that we are united on is that we will act in the best interests of our people. <BR /> <BR />The Member mentioned newcomers, and they come not only from EU states but from other parts of the world. They are anxious because of the tone of some of the debate. The first thing that we should say is that we are here to protect the newcomers and that we respect them and will defend their right to be here.”
“I thank everyone who contributed. I see that it has proved too much for the Chair of the Finance Committee because she left after 15 minutes, but I want to thank her and her Committee for granting accelerated passage for the Bill. I will start at the end, as I am wont to, by dealing with Mr McNulty's points. It is the first time that I have been blamed for Brexit; there is a first time for everything. <BR /> <BR />I want to give him advice for when people come to him to say that they are worried. We had a small group of sixth-form pupils here today from Omagh who were very concerned, worried, fretful and trepidatious about the future. The first thing that we have to do in showing the cool heads that the Member asked for is to assure everyone that we have a firm hand on the tiller.”
“<BR /> <BR />I remind the House that behind the dry figures are the lives of the people we serve, as well as the schools, the hospitals, the community centres and the cultural centres. To serve those people and to provide for our front-line services, it is essential that we move through this debate today and pass the Bill into law. Every public service provided for under the authority of the Assembly is affected by the Bill and requires the legislation to operate legally in this financial year. With that in mind, I ask Members to support the legislation and pass the Final Stage of the Budget (No. 2) Bill.”
“Additional money was also provided for 'A Shared Future' for bodies to deal with the past, for shared and integrated education, and for shared housing. <BR /> <BR />I believe that this Budget will serve our people well. I am proud that we are delivering the most generous welfare protection in these islands to ensure that the most vulnerable will be protected from the worst excesses of austerity. <BR /> <BR />I believe also that it is important not to forget the bigger picture. The Budget (No. 2) Bill, which I hope Members will support again today, does not exist in a vacuum. It is a critically important element of our financial cycle and the principal mechanism through which the Assembly can hold Departments to account for their expenditure.”
“I aim to work with all our local communities to create a prosperous, shared society and to help grow a stronger economy with opportunity for all. <BR /> <BR />I am proud that, as Minister for the new Department of Finance, I have the opportunity with the first Budget Bill of the mandate to signal that I will, of course, oppose austerity. This country is not just an economy; it is a society made up of people, and each person has their own needs and ambitions. We will grow the economy, not as an end in its own right but as a means of providing for all our people. <BR /> <BR />The Fresh Start Agreement represented a good start. It provides significant additional funding in 2016-17. In addition, the Executive agreed to set aside £135 million to top up the UK welfare arrangements.”
“Irrespective of the referendum, there will be changes to departmental budgets agreed through the Executive's monitoring rounds. Indeed, I was able to announce the outcome of the Executive's June monitoring round on 14 June, in which over £140 million of resource and over £29 million of capital were allocated. The June monitoring changes and all other in-year changes will be reflected in the spring Supplementary Estimates, which will be brought to the Assembly in February. <BR /> <BR />When the Assembly debated the Bill's Second Stage two weeks ago, I made clear my ambition for the Executive to deliver over the new mandate. The expenditure being approved in this Bill will see investment in high-quality public services and a commitment to oppose the austerity programme being driven by the Westminster Government.”
“Members will no doubt be very interested in the impact the referendum result has had on those spending plans. The Bill is written to the Executive's agreed Budget for 2016-17; therefore, the result of the referendum does not change it. <BR /> <BR />As we move into negotiations on the fiscal relationship with London, I will act resolutely to protect the interests of all our people. I have taken steps to contact the Treasury, even since Thursday, on not only this Budget but future Budgets. In the coming weeks, the Executive will be considering their Budget plans for future years. I have no doubt that the impact of Brexit will then become clear, and we will respond accordingly. <BR /> <BR />Members will also be aware that the Bill is not the end of the legislative process for this year.”
“I urge them, therefore, to keep their head up in the time ahead. <BR /> <BR />I will now move on to the detail of the Budget (No. 2) Bill. I have listened with interest to the debate over the last few weeks. It is a debate that has covered many important issues: issues that are relevant not only in the current financial year but for the future of all the people we represent. I thank everyone who contributed to those debates, particularly the two lengthy debates we had two weeks ago. I once again place on record my thanks to the Committee for Finance for its role in ensuring that the Bill could pass through the Assembly via accelerated passage. <BR /> <BR />It is worth emphasising again that the Bill approves the expenditure of Departments and other bodies for this financial year, 2016-17.”
“It is my intention to ensure that our young people are not denied the bounty of Europe any more than Europe should be denied the right to share this continent with them.”
“Similarly, the Irish Government have a pivotal role in defending the mandate to remain here and the interests of all the people here, and I have taken steps to contact the Minister for Finance, Michael Noonan, whom I met last week, and Minister Donohoe. It is important that the Irish Government speak out firmly to protect our interests. <BR /> <BR />I want to say one thing before I move on to the core of the Budget discussions. I want to address the young people who voted last week in overwhelming numbers to stay in Europe. As they look to the future and assess the budgets and how this Government will proceed, I urge them to not be downhearted or forced from the path of creating a shared, diverse and prosperous society. We have come too far on this journey to be diverted into a cul-de-sac of splendid isolation.”
“I assured them that I would apply a firm hand to the wheel in the days and weeks ahead, and I look forward to meeting shortly the Special EU Programmes Body and senior representatives of business, the trade unions and social enterprises to discuss our response. <BR /> <BR />It was my intention to do this before the Brexit decision, but I will work closely with our colleagues in Scotland, where there was an unequivocal "Remain" vote. In discussions with the Scottish Finance Minister, Derek Mackay, on Friday, I agreed to coordinate my approach closely with his. I will meet Minister McKay on 11 July in Cardiff with the Finance Minister in Wales, Minister Drakeford.”
“I welcome the steps outlined by Mrs Foster on behalf of the First Minister and deputy First Minister to respond to Brexit. I look forward to the necessary measures being taken to minimise the damage being caused by the crisis. <BR /> <BR />I am in no doubt that people are fearful of the consequences of Brexit. That is why I took steps on Friday and over the weekend to assure potential investors and directors and, in particular, representatives of the Special EU Programmes Body, who, as you know, were worried about the decision. I also spoke to the vice president of the European Investment Bank, Jonathan Taylor, and groups that are in receipt of EU funds.”
“I will go back to where we were. I wanted, as Finance Minister, to touch on the Brexit vote and give my reassurance to the public and the House that we are focusing resolutely on that crisis at this time. Like other Members, I want to emphasise that I will resolutely defend the interests of all our people across the North in the time ahead. <BR /> <BR />As Finance Minister, my plan prior to the referendum was to seek contingency papers from Department heads to prepare ourselves as best as possible for the fallout from the referendum. On Friday afternoon, directors in the Department went through some of the key issues. I thank all the officials in the Department of Finance who put their shoulder to the wheel on Friday and before that to ensure that we responded robustly but calmly to the aftershocks of the Brexit decision.”
“Thank you again, Mr Deputy Speaker. I beg to move”
“The passing of the Final Stage of the Budget Bill will facilitate legislative cover for Departments and other public bodies to deliver services in this financial year. I emphasise again the critical importance of the legislation completing its passage through the Assembly. <BR /> <BR />The Budget Bill is written to the Executive’s agreed Budget for 2016-17. Therefore, the result of the referendum on exiting the European Union, which we have just debated for three hours, does not change that. However, Members and the public will want to be assured —”
“Mora duit ar maidin. My good wishes to Trevor as well, and, if there is a football indulgence this morning, I wish the Northern Ireland team well and the Irish team well for tomorrow. I believe William Humphrey gave his ticket to Martin McGuinness — no greater love has any man.”
“The European project was born out of a wish to see an end to war. I think that that is one reason why the European Union understood the importance of our peace process. They got it, and they responded generously. I hope that, in the time ahead, not just in Narrow Water but in many other projects, including entrepreneurial projects, research and innovation and life sciences, we will continue to have strong support from our European colleagues.”
“Go raibh maith agat as an cheist, a Charál. Sílim go dtuigeann tú cé chomh tábhachtach agus atá tacaíocht na hEorpa don obair atá ar bun againn. I think that the Member understands the key importance of Europe's support for everything that we are trying to do here in building peace and prosperity. It is an apposite time on Friday. We have an opportunity to go back to Europe and say, "This is how you have to win the hearts and minds of people even more so; by reinforcing your commitment to the peace process."”
“I am very respectful of anyone who wants to vote to leave on Thursday, but, for the life of me, I cannot understand how anyone in this part of the world would vote to leave, because, for the last 15 years, I have heard politicians from all sides of the House say that foreign direct investment should come here not only because we have great and talented people but because we are a gateway to Europe. In fact, in my view, our future prosperity and success in business — in particular, the foreign direct investment that we wish to attract through corporation tax — is predicated upon our membership of the European Union. You are making me talk about Brexit, which I forswore not to do.”
“We need to double down and go back to Europe — post-Friday if circumstances are permitting — and say that, in fact, now is the time to reinforce your commitment rather than decreasing your commitment to building peace and prosperity here.”
“I think that this is a loaded question. Funny — I read the figures this morning, and they are staggering. The Peace, INTERREG and RDF moneys that have come in to this part of the world are absolutely staggering. I think that there has been almost €2 billion in Peace money. INTERREG money is up around €1·2 billion. I know that the Member has great faith in Westminster. I am not entirely sure why. If I were a betting man, I would not bet on our friends in the Treasury being as generous post-Brexit if that were to happen — please God, it does not — as they are letting on. <BR /> <BR />Yes, the Peace programme is coming to an end. I think that 2021 will see the end of Peace IV.”
“<BR /> <BR />There has been an attempt to prevent me from releasing one piece of information. I repeat my pledge to you at Committee: I am resolved to release that piece of information to you as well, regardless of that attempt, which we take seriously — we need to take counsel over the next 24 hours — because I believe that it is also in the public interest.”
“Yes, I can. You will see later today, I hope, when the papers go out to the Finance Committee that I will honour my pledge; I will release all the information that I have in my Department relating to NAMA. As I said, whatever side of the table I am at, I am on the same side as the Committee. My pledge remains the same that any information that is relevant to the NAMA inquiry should be released to the Committee. Today, I have gone back, as I promised, looked at the documents that had been released previously and removed redactions that were there. There were very few minor redactions which the Committee did not ask for; for example, relating to bank employees who were worried about their jobs. I have removed redactions. I hope that you receive those fresh papers later today.”
“There have been calls for a legislative commission of inquiry. I think that we really need that. Those of us in the Department of Finance and other bodies here will do our best to provide the information. I really do think that it is time for the Irish Government to do more. I hope that that happens in the time ahead. I presume that that is what former Minister Martin was speaking about.”
“I did not catch all of Micheál Martin's speech but, as I am sure the Member is aware, his Government were deeply involved in the issues, problems and crash which led to the setting up of NAMA and left us with this mess — this corrosive mess — which has been NAMA, the NAMA loan book and Project Eagle. <BR /> <BR />The pledge I give her is that my Department will release all the information we can to her. I view the NAMA scandal as an abomination. The public is entitled to know if anyone benefited from the misery of so many people — many people caught in negative equity, and many people who did lose properties. <BR /> <BR />In the time ahead, whether it is Micheál Martin or anyone else, I think that I can say, as we have said previously, that the Irish Government need to do more.”
“They make their contribution through the wider charitable works but, at the same time, we need to make sure that our high streets prosper. I am sure the Member has a view on this. Is there a time when we say that five charity shops on a street is enough, or can there be six or seven? In my constituency of South Belfast sometimes traders say that the balance is wrong because people are saying we cannot shop here. On the other hand, every one of those charities makes a great contribution. I look forward to hearing the Member's views on that matter in the time ahead.”
“I thank the Member for the supplementary. It is not my intention to impose rates on charity shops. I am aware of the difficulty it presents to us when a landlord who may be unscrupulous and who does not want to pay half rates — there is 50% relief on empty premises — so he or she decides to put a charity in and therefore avoids the rate obligation while charging the charity rent. There is a problem in some of our busiest commercial main streets, and we need to prevent landlords from doing that. <BR /> <BR />I have met the charities, and I think that it is going to be part of a wider review. I met the NI Council for Voluntary Action (NICVA) on Friday, and this was one of the topics. Most charities want to make a contribution.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am happy to give the Member this assurance: without small businesses and small to medium-sized enterprises we do not have an economy, so we need to have prosperous main streets, prosperous towns and prosperous cities. The "spray and pray" approach of business rate relief for small businesses is not making enough difference. With the Member's permission, I hope to bring forward proposals that will be more focused.”
“I thank the Member for his question. He has voiced concerns about the grass-roots retail economy in Fermanagh in particular, and the pressures that it is under. He can be assured that I share those concerns. It is my intention to give as much help as possible to small businesses. <BR /> <BR />We have had a review of small business rates, and we are now in a larger review of the entire rating system. I have been meeting with my officials on this. I would like to bring forward proposals which are perhaps a little bit bolder. He will be aware that I recently met the chief executive of Fermanagh and Omagh District Council and he pointed out a site beside Brewster Park which has been empty for 20 years and talked about a productive economic asset being lost. Of course, it does not come under rates at all.”
“I have not been here since 2011, so you cannot visit all the sins of my fathers and mothers upon me. Nevertheless, I take the point that there has been much promise and not enough action. It is a live issue; do not consider it moribund or dormant. It is an issue to which we will return and it is an issue on which all Members of the House, including you, will have input to make and I look forward to that. There is work to be done and 2011-16 in my view, has been too long, but I know that the Executive are committed to making progress on this. Now that we have moved, as the Member said, from 12 to nine Departments, it is an apposite time.”
“While respecting the independence of the arm's-length bodies — I believe that every one of them fulfils a vital role — I am open, as are some of the agencies themselves, to looking at ways of getting a bigger bang for our buck. <BR /> <BR />Let us not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Let us make sure that we advance in a way that includes and values everyone and recognises the contribution of those arm's-length bodies in the past and in future.”
“The rationalisation of the arm's-length bodies and our commitment to reform them has formed an early part of the briefings I have received. For what it is worth, it was a commitment in Sinn Féin's manifesto before the election as well. There is no one in the House who believes that we could not do a better job of rationalising the arm's-length bodies. At this stage, I have no particular recommendations to make. Of course, many of those arm's-length bodies do not come under my Department but report to other bodies. However, if we can find a way to deliver the same level of service or improve it with a more mainstreamed delivery system, I think the Member would support that.”
“Absolutely. That was on the day that I was referring to, and we voted in favour of that motion. It shows you the strength of a very powerful lobby when 100 firefighters arrive at the Assembly. We are usually tremendously supportive of what they ask for and that remains a priority for me. It is not my Department, and budgets are under pressure, but you can take it from me that the Fire Service is an integral, vital and key part of everything we do. I know that you will be a strong advocate for our firefighters in the time ahead.”
“It is a case of moving out of the frying pan and into the fire. You are welcome here. Of course, we had one of the most evocative moments of the last Assembly mandate when the firefighters came here and we saw what a real lobby looks like. I do not have the full details of that issue, but you can take it that we consider the Fire Service to be vital to our society. It is a service that we stand behind. I am happy for the Minister of Health, who is also responsible for the Fire Service, to come forward with proposals. You can be sure that they will receive a sympathetic ear.”
“We discussed a little bit of football in Wales, although it did not go well for them. They avoided talking about football in Scotland. The Finance Minister of Scotland, Derek Mackay, asked for a regular working relationship, as did Mark Drakeford, the Finance Minister of Wales. This was the big point; together, we represent 10 million people, so when we make a point to the Treasury about raiding our coffers or not being fair and proportionate, we speak for 10 million people.”
“I think it is very important that we have a productive and fruitful relationship not only with Minister Noonan and his colleagues in Dublin but with our colleagues in Wales and Scotland, as well as with Treasury. <BR /> <BR />It is early days, but I hope there will be very regular contact. I also hope to make sure that I represent robustly everyone who votes for the Members gathered here today.”
“I have already had an initial discussion with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, where I expressed my strong opposition to the austerity agenda. As Members may be aware and as I just mentioned, we are facing a real-terms reduction of 4·5% in our resource DEL by 2019-2020. On top of this, I also indicated my desire, in talking with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, to have a working relationship. I think that is important. We may be on different sides in many arguments, but I think we also have to have a working and productive relationship. I have no doubt that, in the short time ahead, we will intensify our negotiations not only with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury but with Chancellor Osborne. A letter went off to Chancellor Osborne last week about corporation tax, but that also covers other issues I had written to him about.”
“The only thing I think I can say is that that, again, increases my sympathy. There is a moral obligation, but, unfortunately, sometimes a moral obligation cannot be monetised. I will say this: I have not made a decision. You can understand from the things I am saying that I think it would be very difficult to find any way to find the money to make the settlement when there is no legal obligation and it could open up a Pandora's box of further claims. The only thing I think I can say to Mr Girvan is this: I have not made a decision, but I will make an early decision. As Mr Hussey pointed out, the issue has been around since 2013 and before that. So, I hope to make an early decision, but I have not made a decision yet.”
“I do not see an easy way through this because I cannot imagine where we will get the money from. If we did get the money, we would open a Pandora's box of claims. I have great sympathy for those affected, but I do not see an easy way through.”
“I have not made it to Strabane yet. I did sneak into Derry, but I have not made it to Strabane. Of course, I have not been invited yet, but I hope to be in that part of the constituency as well. <BR /> <BR />This is a very difficult and fraught issue. Members know how tight money is, and they know that, within budgets, there are enormous pressures. Whatever Committee you are on or Department you are in, you know that we are fighting against a reducing resource budget between now and 2020. It is down 4·5%. We face enormous pressures. I have every sympathy for the issue. I had a full meeting of our top team on the issue at 8.00 am last Tuesday. It was on my desk, and it came up on the doorsteps that I canvassed, and I am sure it came up on the doorsteps that Ms Boyle canvassed.”
“I am sorry I cannot be more positive today on the issue for the Member.”
“I have much sympathy with those who are affected. You are right: they had no part in ending up in the situation that they ended up in. While I do not want to go for one figure, I have to say that if we go down this avenue, there is no saying where it will end, because the original Northern Ireland Civil Service equal pay settlement may unravel, and there may be other groups who say they were also left out. So, it becomes a particularly fractious and difficult issue. I will resist putting a figure on it, but if you contact me after this, I am willing to ask officials to discuss the issues with you. <BR /> <BR />Let me say what Minister Sammy Wilson said in response to you in 2013. I know that Mr Wilson is here today, and he will be delighted that I am quoting him. He said:”
“Any resolution would undoubtedly have to take account of the repercussive risk that other groups will demand similar treatment, as well as the serious risk of undermining the original equal pay settlement, both of which would, of course, require even more funding. I know that it is an issue that the Member has worked very hard on, but I do not think that I can bring him a positive answer today for the reasons that I have outlined.”
“I have been briefed by my officials on this issue, and I am aware of the difficulties involved in attempting to resolve the problem. It is a longstanding issue, as the Member knows, because there was correspondence from you on it a considerable time ago, and it is an issue that will require due consideration. <BR /> <BR />Resolution of the issue will be difficult, as it has been established in court that NIO and PSNI staff have no legal entitlement to the Northern Ireland Civil Service equal pay settlement. It would require significant funding, and, given the already challenging departmental budgets, it is unclear where the money would come from.”