Máirtín Ó Muilleoir
South Belfast · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“Go raibh maith agat as an cheist sin. I think it must. I followed the Public Accounts Committee under my colleague Mr Swann, and I read the devastating October hearing when Ofgem appeared.”
“While the areas it will investigate will be wide-ranging, it will necessarily include key areas in which there has been huge public interest, including the development and roll-out of the RHI scheme by the then Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment; the signing off of the scheme by the then Department of Finance and Personnel; th…”
“I thank Mr Clarke for that question. I know that Mr Clarke was at the PAC hearing that Robin Swann had the wonderful occasion to chair. I would have paid money to attend that because it was certainly a difficult session for the PAC.”
“In relation to the question asked, I want to speak in particular of the seven months that I have been in the Department of Finance. I have been deeply impressed by the commitment, diligence and alertness of my officials to the RHI scandal. I mentioned previously alerting the Comptroller and Auditor General.”
“Ba mhaith liom buíochas a thabhairt don Chomhalta as an cheist sin. I think that any inquiry will ask what went wrong, where it went wrong, who was accountable and what happened. In that context, I am totally convinced that the decision to involve Ofgem in the RHI scheme was a major mistake. Ofgem has failed.”
“Therefore, I wish to reassure the public by setting out the steps that I think must be taken to ensure absolute openness and transparency. The arrangements I have detailed in this statement are intended to ensure this.”
The complete record
Every one of 1,305 lines we hold for Máirtín Ó Muilleoir, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 24 of 27.
“I want to mention three of those, because the work that they do reflects back to the points that Mr Agnew made about the need for a coherent strategy and consistent help for those who work with asylum seekers and refugees. Mornington is an organisation on the Ormeau Road that runs a food bank and many other community outreach activities. In recent months, it has been pressing society to respond to this global crisis, as it does day and daily. Last week, for example, on Friday morning when it held its food bank, it could not close because people continued to come. Many of those they help are asylum seekers.”
“At that time, shamefully, the London Government had taken in only a few hundred people, despite the requests from the United Nations refugee agency that they take in many tens of thousands. Through working with Rev Bill Shaw, I have got to meet some exemplary organisations in the city of Belfast. I have heard them speaking in recent days, asking us to respond with big hearts and to give a generous welcome to the refugees who will be coming in.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Ba mhaith liom mo leithscéal a ghabháil leat; bhí mé ag cruinniú ar maidin. I apologise, as I was at a meeting of the economy Committee earlier and missed the start of the debate. <BR /> <BR />I want to make three quick points to echo some of the sentiments that we have heard today and to give Members some background on the work that has gone on to date to help refugees through the crisis and on the work that some of the great volunteer groups in Belfast have been involved in. <BR /> <BR />It was in December last year that Rev Bill Shaw approached the Executive and asked that we take in some Syrian refugees under the vulnerable persons relocation scheme.”
“Ba mhaith liom tréaslú le Dominic as gach rud ar dhúirt sé ansin. Ach an cheist ba mhaith liom a chur ar an Aire is é go raibh mé ar Bhóthar Bhaile Nua na hArda inné agus bhí taispeántas ann i gceantar aontachtach ar chúrsaí Gaeilge. Cad é na hiarrachtaí atá déanta aici le tacaíocht a fháil ón phobal eile? I agree with Mr Bradley. The Minister talked about trying to achieve support from across the community. I was in a church community centre on the Lower Newtownards Road yesterday, where there was an exhibition on the Irish language, and we welcome that. What steps is the Minister taking to try to achieve support, right across the board, for an Irish language Act?”
“One is Venuebooker, which is a small company that I had the pleasure of accompanying to the west coast of the USA in 2013 on an investment mission and is now up and running in Belfast. It is trying to be the Expedia for hotel meeting rooms, which is a very ambitious global vision, but we wish it well. The other is Brewbot, who are the people who invented a way to brew beer in your office. Needless to say, that managed to attract lots of interest and equity financing. If we can match the confidence, vision and ambition of those start-ups, I believe that we can build the sort of economy that our people deserve and demand in the time ahead.”
“<BR /> <BR />I appeal to the Minister, as he works through the recommendations, not to skip quickly past recommendation 1a. Investment will show the business community and the entire community, especially those seeking work, how we understand that a correct infrastructure can be a boon to business and can help to facilitate business in the time ahead. I believe that we have here, certainly among those who gave evidence to the Committee, businesspeople of great ambition of confidence. I think that, if we can get our act together here, they are willing to put their shoulder to the wheel in the time ahead. <BR /> <BR />I want to finish by referencing two small businesses — of course, every large business started off small — that give me great hope in terms of the entrepreneurial flair and vision of our young people.”
“The scale of investment needed — not only an investment strategy and fund — is very clear from the demands and requests of those who came to give evidence. In particular, we need better transport infrastructure. It remains a source of distress and concern not only to business but the community that we do not have a proper dual carriageway from here to the city of Derry. I congratulate the Minister on recent announcements. OneSource of Texas and Metaverse of California both committed to putting new investments into the north-west, but we can double down on those investments if we can improve our road infrastructure. The Dublin-Belfast economic corridor calls out for a rail link commensurate with its potential. In fact, a one-hour Belfast-Dublin express train would be a real boon to business in the time ahead.”
“I think that we all can unite behind that.”
“<BR /> <BR />There is a variety of recommendations; we managed to limit ourselves to 15, which I am sure will cheer the Minister. Among those is a recommendation that mentions horizontal, vertical and geographical integration, but I will not focus on that at the minute. I want instead to talk about recommendation 1a, which is about the need for investment.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. I wanted to make life relatively easy for the Minister and the Committee Chair by sticking to recommendation 1, but it is important to say to Adrian that a rate and date have not been agreed. That has not been agreed by the DUP or Sinn Féin, never mind by all five parties. Although the previous Minister said that she was minded to have a 12·5% rate of corporation tax, that has not been fully confirmed by the DUP either. We all wait for a rate and date, and we travel in the hope that we can get this right. <BR /> <BR />As to the inquiry report, I thank the staff who put hours and hours of hard work into making sure that we were able to come out with a cogent and strong report with clear recommendations. I also thank all who came forward as witnesses.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. I am sure that this note and other matters come up in your discussions with the Treasury. I take it that Treasury's position is that its approach is 100% correct. I do not expect the Minister to adopt my position, which is wholly against the London Government's approach, but surely you are not saying that when you sit down to talk to the Treasury, you both say the same thing.”
“If we commit to listen, will you make it shorter?”
“They may not forgive me for calling them donkeys one minute and colleagues the next, but our approach to our colleagues in Westminster in the time ahead is going to tell the tale of how well we do for the lions whom we serve.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention as well. It is great to see such a lively Chamber all of a sudden. <BR /> <BR />I want to finish off not by going back to the ping-pong of debate but by paying tribute to the people we serve. I think that, from Tattyreagh to Taughmonagh, the people we serve are lions. They deserve the best of what we can offer. Our aim is to make sure that they can get the services that they are entitled to. Our aim is to build a fair and prosperous economy, so the lions we serve, whether from the Shankill or the Falls, deserve better than blind obedience to the Tory donkeys or English Ministers. That, I think, will form the core of our approach to our colleagues in the time ahead.”
“I am sure that there will be other Members and other opportunities to intervene.”
“I thank the Member for her point. I agree absolutely. It comes across again and again that the policies of the British Government are wonderful for London, but here they just heap more pain on the poor. <BR /> <BR />So, to conclude —”
“<BR /> <BR />We should not over-egg that comparison because, thank God, our economic crisis is nothing compared to the horror of the First World War, but today there are English leaders who insist that the only way forward is austerity. They are not English generals, but they are English Ministers. They are, and this is where Minister Farry might get upset, Tory donkeys, and the lions that we serve —”
“At this time of year, we all think of that great work of theatre, 'Observe the Sons of Ulster Marching Towards the Somme'. Tomorrow is 1 July, and at 9.30 am, along with the Lord Mayor of Belfast, I will be at the Cenotaph in Belfast, reflecting on the horror and loss at the Somme 99 years ago. I suppose that the classic maxim to come from the slaughter of the Somme is the idea of lions led by donkeys. That the loss of men of the Ulster Division and soldiers from across this island, really for nothing, over many months of combat. History lays the blame for that on the shoulders of the donkeys who were the English generals, and that is why we have carried with us to this day, when we think of the horror of warfare, the concept of lions led by donkeys.”
“Let me move on to the next point, because I am sure that there will be plenty of points of information to give after it. <BR /> <BR />The Tories say that it is their way or the highway. Do I accept that? No, I do not. It is our duty to oppose that and to say to the London Government that we do not accept their approach. <BR /> <BR />Let me move on to the arts, because last week Minister Foster and I covered those two great canons of the arts. I covered poetry with TS Eliot's 'The Waste Land', and she came back with Charles Dickens. I was compared to Wilkins Micawber, who, of all the evil characters in Dickens's novels, is one of the brighter stars in that constellation, so I was not particularly perturbed by that comparison. <BR /> <BR />Let us move on to a more sombre point and a more poignant piece of art.”
“I thank Mr Farry for his point of information. Before I stood up, I thought, "He's definitely going to fall out with me when I move on to my third point", which is to really challenge the London Government. No one here voted for the Tories. In my constituency of South Belfast, people voted in large numbers for the Alliance Party and for many other parties, but very few voted for the Tories.”
“So, on both those big approaches of unionism, I beg to differ. There is another way of cutting the deficit, if that is your wish. Debt:GDP ratios are at their lowest in 300 years, and interest rates are at an all-time low; however, if it is your wish to cut the deficit, there is another way to do it. If you really believe that austerity will revive and ramp up this economy, you are deluded.”
“It will mean that we will not have the money to invest in our start-ups and early-stage companies. We will not have the money to market abroad to bring new jobs here. We will not have the money if the Tories continue with their austerity agenda. We will not have the money to fund university places.”
“<BR /> <BR />The second area where we need to find some common ground is the belief that austerity is good for the economy and that it will grow the economy. I have my 26-page IMF discussion note. It is interesting that only the IMF could have 26 pages and call it a note, but the content and thrust of the note is that needless austerity is not good for society and that Western Governments should stop the obsession with needless austerity. If our friends in London — Mr Osborne and his colleague — insist on pursuing an austerity agenda, it will continue to prevent us from moving into a robust recovery. It will mean that we have to continue this stuttering recovery. It will mean that we will not have the money to invest, for example, in marketing our tourist assets.”
“<BR /> <BR />Mr Beggs, who has his head down at the minute — he is like me, because he takes notes when I am speaking, and I take notes when he is speaking — is perhaps the greatest proponent of the idea that we cannot say to the London Government that there is a way to cut the deficit other than by cutting public services and welfare primarily. However, there is another way, and other countries do this: you can raise taxation. There can be a mix. It is the obsession of the Tory ideologues about austerity and cutbacks that is at fault, and we have to bring that up with them to stand apart from that. I do not believe that anyone here wants to show blind obedience to the British Government approach, which is good for London but not good for us.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. I support the Budget as presented, although, after listening to Minister Farry, I am tempted to join the opposition Lobbies, given his begrudging and grumbling approach. I want to pick up on perhaps the most potent point of all, which is our relationship with Westminster, which controls and dispenses the block grant. That is the core of where we are in the Chamber. What unites us is that we all want a fair and prosperous economy, but what divides us is our approach to London.”
“It is my hope that the Minister and her team, when they go to the Treasury — she will think that I am angling for an invite to one of those meetings with the Treasury — put those hard questions to it around the key issues for us and make sure that we get the best deal possible for all our people.”
“<BR /> <BR />I also noted the comments around Barnett consequentials. I have written to the Minister in relation to HS2; I hope that there will be a consequential relating to that. There has not been a lot of money spent on that yet, but it is vital that there is a Barnett consequential around high-speed rail. There was a consequential to Crossrail but, as Mr Girvan pointed out, only a very peripheral one around the Olympics. <BR /> <BR />I will finish with an organisation that I do not quote every day, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker — the British Institute of International and Comparative Law. However, according to paragraph 80 of our report, it:”
“<BR /> <BR />Many expert witnesses said that convergence is on the cards — that it will come. It is my opinion that convergence will not be good for those of us in this part of the world and it means that the areas that need the most investment will not necessarily get it. I think you need to provide more TLC and investment to any enterprise where you have an area that is lagging behind. The Barnett formula makes some accommodation for that, and it is important, if convergence comes, that we do not lose that. So, we need an extra element of need and consideration of how that should be assessed to make sure that the gap between the rich and the not-so-well-offs, between the Londons and the devolved areas, does not widen. That would create economic stagnation instead of help us to grow our economy.”
“None of us would accept in any other area a situation in which only those who decide what you are entitled to have access to the data. Are we talking about improving Barnett? Are we talking about a new approach or a new formula? Certainly, we need to find a way to have transparency around figures. It is very interesting that the Treasury is willing to share these figures with other organisations but not with the devolved Administration. <BR /> <BR />That is particularly important, of course, in relation to corporation tax. The Treasury has held tight to the figures, the estimates and the guesstimates, but that is a crucial issue for us. Regardless of how many speed bumps we hit in the time ahead, or have hit to date, it seems to me that we need to have access to the key data that is involved if we are to get corporation tax right.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Thank you, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker. Ba mhaith liom buíochas fosta a thabhairt don fhoireann a chuir an tuairisc seo le chéile. I thank the team — the staff — who put this material together and the Committee members who took so much evidence over a lengthy period. <BR /> <BR />Three issues continue to concern us. I would argue that we cannot just leave it alone. I think we need to take a very engaged position in relation to the Barnett formula. Mr Girvan talked about the twin areas of trust and transparency. It has been repeated by Members, and several witnesses have said, that you need to have the correct figures; you need to have access to the data. If we cannot have that, we cannot trust the figures.”
“<BR /> <BR />In the context of the rapid growth of the Irish language across the North; the First Minister's commitment to the Chamber that he respects the Irish language community; and the cross-community nature of much Irish language promotion, as evidenced by the Turas project at Skainos in east Belfast, does the Commission member believe that enough is being done by the Education Service to accommodate Irish-medium schools?”
“Go raibh maith agat. Mo bhuíochas fosta leis an choimisinéir as an fhreagra sin. <BR /> <BR />Ba mhaith liom ceist a chur uirthi: ó tharla fás gasta iontach a bheith ar an Ghaedhilg le blianta beaga anuas, ó tharla é a bheith ráite ag an Chéad-Aire, Peter Robinson, go bhfuil meas aige ar phobal na Gaedhilge, agus ó tharla anois go bhfuil an Ghaedhilg ag leathnú amach go dtí an pobal Protastúnch fosta, an dóigh leis an choimisinéir go bhfuil go leor seirbhísí ar fáil do na scoileanna Gaedhilge?”
“You should never take it for granted that, when we have our heads down, we are not listening, because we may be taking notes. <BR /> <BR />The fault line in this argument is that you are taking — if I may say so through the Chair — the word of the English Government that they have no money to invest in order to help us to grow, but the evidence is that when money is needed by English Ministers, they find the money; £20 billion was found for fighter jets, so how can they not find the money to allow us to grow this economy and this society? I will finish with this: the Member mentioned his father, and he realises how difficult years were here. For anyone to suggest that there is not a special case to be made to London by the Assembly, both sides, for me beggars belief. We have to make that case.”
“In my view, we need to unite in the time ahead. We need to have a common platform with which to go to London, and we have to insist that they have to find a way to enable us to grow the economy, build our society and build a shared and prosperous future.”
“The Minister went over to see the Chief Secretary of the Treasury during the week; she came out with the message that there is no more money there. It is my belief that we need to go back, and we need to fly that flag for all our people again to insist on the investment that we need. If they refuse this week, we will go back next week much stronger, and we will go back united. That has to be the aim of all of us: that we unite around our insistence that we need to invest to grow our economy and to protect our people in the time ahead. None of us will shirk from that obligation. <BR /> <BR />If we do not do that and if the Tories have their way, I am convinced that the wasteland that they will create here will be more awful than anything that TS Eliot could ever have imagined. Our job is clear.”
“I want to emphasise the common ground in that all of us in the Chamber are united and wish to protect the institutions, but, to save the institutions, I am convinced that we have to stop the austerity agenda from London. <BR /> <BR />I will finish with this: the message surely has to go to Mr Osborne and his colleagues that they need to invest, that this is a special case, that we have suffered terribly over many years of darkness in this part of the world, that they need to accept that if we want to grow the economy, if they want to see a fair and prosperous society here, they have to invest. That means more expenditure on public services and cannot mean additional cutbacks. <BR /> <BR />We started with talking about the wasteland politics of the Tory Government.”
“Thank you for that clarification. Let me put it in a broader sense: what our colleagues in the DUP have been saying is that if we do not accept the agenda from London, if we do not accept that there is no money in the kitty, if we do not accept that there will be no more investment, there could be no future for the institutions. It is my contention that if we accept the agenda from London, the institutions are doomed. If we accept that there has to be another £800 million in cuts between now and 2018, our job becomes unsustainable. What will our purpose be — to deliver those cuts to our constituents and then to come back in 2018 with another raft of cuts?”
“She estimated that perhaps another £350 million will targeted at welfare, but it could be broader than that, and there will be additional cuts under Mr Osborne — perhaps as much as another £450 million — which will bring us to up to £800 million in cuts between now and 2018. It is my contention —”
“The sources that I am quoting will not perhaps be seen as those of the left in any manner of speaking, yet they, too, are crying halt to this agenda of austerity. <BR /> <BR />Anyone who has been listening to the media has heard different party spokespersons disagreeing on the way forward, but, despite the divisions today, I want to talk about what unites us. The Finance Minister, speaking at Question Time on behalf of the First Minister, spoke about her belief that if we do not implement the cuts that are coming down the line from the Tory Government, we will be doomed.”
“— referring of course to the idiom about a rising tide lifting all boats —”
“Instead of that, unfortunately, the approach of the Tories is akin to insisting that everything must be a cut and that there is no other way in which to drive growth than to cut. In my experience of small business, that is not the case. I argue that we are now in an era of needless austerity, to use the term that the International Monetary Fund (IMF) used recently in its memo on austerity being carried forward by Western Governments. That needless austerity will certainly set back the British economy, but, for us on the margins, it will be, and is, absolutely devastating. <BR /> <BR />I want to quote — not the 'Financial Times' this time — Madame Lagarde, the head of the IMF. Speaking recently on inequality and austerity, she said:”
“That means that the pain is not being shared equally. In fact, those who are better off continue to do well, but those who are at the bottom of the economic ladder have to bear the greatest burden. For me, that is unacceptable. I do not believe that that ideology is shared by parties in the Chamber. Despite our divisions on this matter and other matters over recent weeks, it is my contention that the desire for a fair and prosperous economy unites us. <BR /> <BR />I want to say something as someone who has had some involvement in small business and in growing businesses over 20 years. The policy of cut, cut, cut does not lead to business development. It is even more important that we invest in our businesses to grow them, that we skill up and that we cherish the employees who work for our businesses.”
“I have some statistics and facts from the 'Financial Times' that are very relevant to us concerning policy. In Britain, debt is at its lowest in 300 years as a percentage of GDP. Less than one in five is in public service, and that is the lowest number since the 1930s. It is the intention, as we know, of the Tories to make sure that four fifths of the deficit reduction comes from cutting services and just one fifth from raising taxes. We understand therefore where the pain goes in that process. <BR /> <BR />Of course, in response to that wasteland policy of the Tories, some of the greatest defence of ordinary people has come from the Churches. We know the resolute position of Pope Francis. However, in February 2015, in response to the then coalition policies on austerity, the Church of England said:”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I want to add my voice to those who are expressing support for the Budget today, even if our support on this side of the Chamber is conditional. <BR /> <BR />I will explain some of the reasons why we fear for the future of these institutions and for the future and economic well-being of our people if we do not take strong steps against the economic policies and strategies coming out of London. In my view, the policies being pursued by Mr Osborne and the Tories are the policies of the wasteland. They will lay waste to everything that we hold dear, and, in particular, they will make it more difficult for us to drive forward our society. <BR /> <BR />Occasionally, Mr Speaker, I go into the Library, where I read the 'Financial Times', you will be pleased to hear.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for her answers and Ms Lo for bringing the issue up. How was the funding for the intercultural arts programme distributed over the last period?”
“They are united in their belief that the pedestrian crossing is badly and seriously needed, and it would be a very welcome decision by the Minister for Regional Development if he proceeded with it.”
“It accepts the need for a pedestrian crossing there, but, as yet, no date has been set for providing such a crossing. It is my firm belief that, despite the atmosphere of cuts in which we find ourselves, it would be much more prudent for the DRD to put in a pedestrian crossing at this point than to wait until there is another accident. God forbid that there would be a serious accident at that part of the Ormeau Road, but immediate action to put a pedestrian crossing in place would not only be timely and wise but would be welcomed by those who signed the petition. <BR /> <BR />This morning, I went through some of the comments of those who signed the petition.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Míle buíochas as an deis an achainí seo a thabhairt duit. I want to present a petition today in relation to the appeal for a pedestrian crossing on the upper Ormeau Road. That pedestrian crossing would be placed opposite, or outside, Holy Rosary Church. <BR /> <BR />As many Members know, the Ormeau Road is one of the busiest roads in the city of Belfast. In fact, in 2013, the DRD identified the Ormeau Road as the North's worst traffic accident black spot. Therefore, the need for a pedestrian crossing speaks for itself. <BR /> <BR />The petition has been signed by 794 people, the majority of whom are elderly Holy Rosary parishioners. <BR /> <BR />I made a formal request to Roads Service in October 2014 to have a pedestrian crossing put in place.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I want to add to the deputy First Minister's statement about Mayor Tom Bates, who is a great friend of this city and this country. His wife, Senator Loni Hancock, last week proposed the adjournment of the California State Senate in condolence and sympathy with the victims of the Berkeley tragedy. I want to put that on record. <BR /> <BR />We enjoy a great bond with Berkeley, which is, of course, named after an Anglo-Irish bishop, George Berkeley. I hope and trust that, in the time ahead, that bond with Berkeley will be strengthened by this tragedy.”
“Go raibh maith agat. Mo bhuíochas leis an Aire. Thank you, Minister. As it is some years since we met about it, perhaps we could return to that discussion. We welcome the ambitious plan to put a £3 million bridge over the Lagan at Ormeau, but a £25,000 cosmetic exercise is required at Finaghy bridge, which is more redolent of Belfast in the 1970s or the green zone in Iraq than the great city Belfast is today.”