Máirtín Ó Muilleoir
South Belfast · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“Go raibh maith agat as an cheist sin. I think it must. I followed the Public Accounts Committee under my colleague Mr Swann, and I read the devastating October hearing when Ofgem appeared.”
“While the areas it will investigate will be wide-ranging, it will necessarily include key areas in which there has been huge public interest, including the development and roll-out of the RHI scheme by the then Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment; the signing off of the scheme by the then Department of Finance and Personnel; th…”
“I thank Mr Clarke for that question. I know that Mr Clarke was at the PAC hearing that Robin Swann had the wonderful occasion to chair. I would have paid money to attend that because it was certainly a difficult session for the PAC.”
“In relation to the question asked, I want to speak in particular of the seven months that I have been in the Department of Finance. I have been deeply impressed by the commitment, diligence and alertness of my officials to the RHI scandal. I mentioned previously alerting the Comptroller and Auditor General.”
“Ba mhaith liom buíochas a thabhairt don Chomhalta as an cheist sin. I think that any inquiry will ask what went wrong, where it went wrong, who was accountable and what happened. In that context, I am totally convinced that the decision to involve Ofgem in the RHI scheme was a major mistake. Ofgem has failed.”
“Therefore, I wish to reassure the public by setting out the steps that I think must be taken to ensure absolute openness and transparency. The arrangements I have detailed in this statement are intended to ensure this.”
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“I would like to see what Mr Noonan comes forward with tomorrow, and I am sure that Mr Ford would like to wait as well and see what the Comptroller and Auditor General points out as shortcomings. We know there has been some speculation that he or she will say that there is a shortfall of €200 million to €300 million because the deal was not carried out properly. Let us wait until that happens, when we see the report tomorrow. Let us see the response of Minister Noonan and the Taoiseach and take it from there. <BR /> <BR />I stand firm in my position that there should be that inquiry; I support your position.”
“There was every "given" in there except Paul Givan, I notice. What I would say to the former Minister is what he would have said to me in similar circumstances: unfortunately, I do not control the setting-up of inquiries in this jurisdiction. The Assembly may have the power to do that, or perhaps the Executive have the power, or perhaps it is the Comptroller and Auditor General. <BR /> <BR />I am as keen as he is to get to the truth of what happened in the Project Eagle deal. Much of the information that we are getting has come from sources outside any official investigation: in particular, we all have to tip our cap to the journalists who have been working on the issue. <BR /> <BR />I would not give up on the possibility of an all-island inquiry.”
“I thought that you were going to ask me to step aside. I know that, of all the people in here, you would be the most disappointed if I did anything but step up, and step up is what I intend to do. <BR /> <BR />This is the sort of thing that you should not say in politics, because you are putting some trust in an organisation outwith this institution entirely, but I have faith in the NCA. They have delivered on their promises so far, and I believe that they will not need and will not brook any political interference in their affairs. Time will tell, Paul, if that is how things emerge. Of course, there are other jurisdictions' agencies now involved as well: the gardaí and the FBI.”
“You can be sure that it did not breach any of its protocols, but everything that the NCA promised us it would do, it has done. It outlined and road-mapped the stages of the investigation, and it has delivered on that. It is therefore my hope that it has the evidence. I believe that there was wrongdoing. I do not want to speak about individuals, but I hope that the NCA is able to use the evidence that it has gathered to bring to a higher court than the Assembly those who were responsible for the scheme.”
“As Minister of Finance, I reiterate what I have said to Southern Ministers and to my colleagues here: a commission of investigation is needed so that we understand what happened and so that the mistakes do not happen again. It has been my view for some time that the sales process was flawed at its very core, and that, I think, will come out in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. <BR /> <BR />What we need to do in the time ahead is ensure that those who can really bring justice to bear on the matter and bring to book those responsible for wrongdoing — the gardaí, the NCA, the FBI and the SEC — have the information to do their job. I remain hopeful. I do not know whether the Member was on the Finance Committee when we met the NCA. The information provided was confidential.”
“I think that the Member heard my position on the issue — it is not a new position — that there should be an all-Ireland inquiry. I do not know whether it was said in the House yesterday or on the TV earlier this week, but she will know the position of the First Minister. They are not the same positions. In my view, it would not be a sensible path to try to take an argument in the public domain into the Executive.”
“I suspect that the Minister for Finance in the South, Mr Noonan, and maybe the Taoiseach will touch on one of them tomorrow. This was the biggest-ever property deal since partition. It was our view across the table in the last Committee for Finance that we did not have on our side sufficient professionalism to gauge and understand what was happening. In the time ahead, if there were ever to be a sale of any asset of this size — I cannot actually imagine that there would be — we need to ensure that Government have on their side those who understand exactly what is going on. That is one of the lessons that my Department has taken on board.”
“I thank Mrs Barton for that. If she has the time — you would need a lot of time for this — and she wants to go back over the Committee for Finance's investigation of the matter, she will see that, at the time, we expressed reservations about many issues around the Project Eagle sale deal preparation. I do not want to name individuals today. There will be enough of that, and it will probably happen at a higher court than this when it does happen. Whatever our misgivings about the conduct of the investigation, I think that we can stand over the conclusions of the report and investigation. One of them was that there are lessons to be learned. In my Department, we took those lessons on board. Where it is relevant and has been relevant to the Department of Finance, we have resolved that those mistakes should not be repeated.”
“In my view, the suggestion that these matters are relevant only to the North is not tenable, but I look forward to tomorrow. As Mrs Barton will know, the Comptroller and Auditor General in the South of Ireland has prepared a report on this particular issue. He will issue that. It will be discussed by Minister Noonan and his Cabinet colleagues. We will take it from there.”
“I thank Mrs Barton. I met Minister Noonan on 22 June 2016. It was a positive introductory meeting where we discussed a broad range of important issues including NAMA. The exact detail of our conversations at all these meetings remains private. However, Mrs Barton will know that my position for some time has been that there should be a commission of investigation on an all-island basis of the Project Eagle sale. She will also be aware of the position of Mr Noonan that any wrongdoing happened outside his jurisdiction. Needless to say, a Cheann Comhairle, I do not accept that position. Since June, things have moved on rapidly. The latest disturbing revelations by 'Spotlight' serve only to underline the need for a full and thoroughgoing investigation of the NAMA/Cerberus deal.”
“I think that that is the area where I will work full out to try to ensure that we have a Budget that we are proud of, which delivers on the Programme for Government objectives and, more than that, delivers on our objective of a shared and prosperous society.”
“The priority issue is to provide all those who depend on the Government with the funds that they need. While we can never satisfy all demand — demand is infinite and our resources are finite — I will endeavour with my colleagues across the way and the Minister of Justice to ensure that we can meet the maximum amount of requests from the public sector, the third sector and those who provide essential services to the community. I will endeavour to provide them with the moneys that they need. For me, Mr Agnew, that is where the focus should be. <BR /> <BR />I urge the Committee for Finance to look at this. Where are its priorities? Where would it like money to be spent? We have a year's Budget to lay out in that regard.”
“I thank Mr Agnew for that. There is no real logic to that at all. The logic of your position is that, if we had brought forward a Budget earlier or gone for a three-year Budget, we would have faced into massive uncertainties. We will not know until 23 November what Mr Hammond wishes to do or what he means when he says that he wants to reset the fiscal system and reboot his approach to public finances. We do not know what his approach is to the austerity agenda. In that context, the only sensible and prudent way forward, as is reflected in Scotland and Wales, is a one-year Budget. <BR /> <BR />We will engage with all those in receipt of public funds at an early stage. I will ask my colleagues on the Finance Committee to bring forward their thoughts on the Budget by October.”
“I met the CBI yesterday morning for an hour-and-a-half discussion. Businesspeople understand that prudent Budget making necessitates taking tough decisions for the benefit of all our citizens. In this situation, the wrong and reckless decision would have been to press ahead with a three-year resource budget before Mr Hammond's statement or afterwards in that period of uncertainty. <BR /> <BR />The Programme for Government will be outcome-based. I am confident that the two processes will align and that the Executive — it is irrelevant now to consider mistakes made in the past by other Administrations — with an independent Justice Minister and with the DUP and Sinn Féin at the table, will make the right decisions for our people and create a Budget that sets out our priorities and meets the aspirations of our people.”
“Let us see what the alternative is. If we were to agree with the Ulster Unionists that a one-year Budget is the wrong way forward, we would not be walking in lockstep with the devolved Administrations of Scotland and Wales. It has been my experience — I have met my fellow Ministers on several occasions — that, when we move together and speak for 10 million people with one voice, we make a better impression on the Treasury and better decisions for our people. The alternative would be, as the Ulster Unionists wanted us to do, to make a three-year Budget even though we do not know what Mr Hammond will do about corporation tax. Will he reduce it to 15%? Will he keep it at current levels? We do not know what Mr Hammond will do about his predecessor's resolve to raid our Budget in 2019-2020 and remove £150 million.”
“There are bigger issues around the Budget, the complications of Budgets and the way that we do Budgets that I want to address in the time ahead. My officials will do a consultation with all the relevant sectors, including the trade unions, the third sector, the business sector and so on. <BR /> <BR />The Executive will be united around not only the concept of a one-year resource budget and a four-year capital budget but the commitment to make the Budget process as swift as possible. I am unhappy that we have to wait until December before we can bring forward a draft Budget. I wish that it were otherwise, but I understand that, given that it will be very late in the year, we need to move at pace in the new year to get the Budget through the House. I am confident that we can do that.”
“I thank Mrs Long for her supplementary question. The Executive have united around the concept of a one-year Budget because there is no alternative. Our Welsh and Scottish friends came to the same conclusion. The Executive realise that we have to move with some speed at this time.”
“The First and deputy First Ministers have written to express their support for this approach to the Budget, and the indications from other Ministers have also been positive, with acknowledgement that, in the circumstances, it is a pragmatic way forward. <BR /> <BR />While Mrs Long is focusing on a one-year versus a multi-year Budget, I think she would agree that there is another pressure on us. Not only do we have to adopt this Budget because of the circumstances — the lack of information and the uncertainty from Westminster — but we face into the problem of resource between now and 2020: we have a 4·1% real-terms cut. Battling that and finding a way round it, when we have obligations in the form of pensions and pay, is very difficult and challenging for us all. I believe, however, that this is the correct way forward at this time.”
“With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I will group questions 3 and 4 together. <BR /> <BR />A single-year resource DEL Budget will allow additional time to plan for the fiscal adjustments that the British Chancellor is expected to set out in the autumn statement. It will also provide further opportunity for our Departments to reflect upon resources that are required in future years to deliver Programme for Government priorities. A multi-year capital budget is possible — I am very pleased by that — in light of indications that a degree of protection will be afforded to capital budgets to encourage investment opportunities. A local multi-year capital budget will provide more certainty in planning capital projects.”
“I hope and trust that we can get the information to the bodies that need it as soon as possible. I take on board the broader point that stability around Budgets would be a great boon to all of us, and I hope to return to the House in more stable times and say, "Here is a resource budget that will bring us right up to 2020."”
“Thank you for that supplementary question. Of course, you met me this morning as Chair of the Committee and made those points. I am very cognisant of the pressures on those on the front line of providing services. We did not take the decision on a one-year Budget lightly. I am pleased that our Celtic cousins in Edinburgh and Cardiff are following the same route. That is because there is no alternative, insomuch as we do not know what the autumn statement will bring in terms of corporation tax, this entire fiscal reset and other issues. However, I take that on board. We will not know the full impact of the autumn statement on 23 November; it will probably take us a week or two to assess it and prepare a Budget. However, before Christmas we should have a one-year resource budget and four-year capital budget ready.”
“My officials are in touch with the Treasury on a daily basis. It is fair to say, after our weekly meeting on EU issues this morning, that my officials believe that there is not enough information coming back from Westminster and the Treasury, but we can take some solace from the fact that, in Westminster, opposition parties are saying the same — they are not getting as much information as they would like. For our part — mine and my Department's — we remain on the ball on this issue.”
“I have had a number of discussions with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and the British Chancellor, Mr Hammond, on the EU referendum and its implications for the Executive’s Budget. In addition, I have corresponded with them on a number of occasions on issues including the implications arising from the EU referendum. I continue to press for early engagement on the Budget implications in advance of the Chancellor’s autumn statement, which will take place on November 23. I am pleased to say that the Chief Secretary to the Treasury has agreed to meet me on 24 October, which I think is a Monday. Shortly before that, we will meet Mr Hammond and, I believe, Theresa May. <BR /> <BR />I agree that it is essential that we have a clear path of communication with the Treasury on all these issues, especially in this period of uncertainty.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Chomhalta. The Member is right to stress how grave it will be if we do not get it right. Needs must in that case, and if we were to lose the ability for housing associations to borrow off balance book it would cost the Executive up to £100 million a year. We do not have that type of money, yet we are resolved to hitting very ambitious social housing targets. For that reason, I take on board Members' concerns and am heartened by the response of Minister Givan and his team this morning.”
“Thank you for that supplementary question. I share those concerns. Last week, I addressed the finance directors of all the housing associations, and you can be sure that they also impressed on me the urgency of getting it right. <BR /> <BR />I am content that we are on the right path. When the decision is issued, I will seek a derogation and the Treasury will decide how to respond to that based on the work we have done. I am content that that work will have the desired effect and that we will get a derogation to allow us to put the proper regulations or legislation in order. Therefore, while Mr Agnew is right to stress the issue and be vigilant on it, I hope and trust that we are on the right path. Mr Givan gave me much confidence in that regard this morning.”
“<BR /> <BR />I would add that we expect the reclassification decision to, as it were, go against us and to rule that housing associations are public-sector bodies. We expect that decision before the end of the month.”
“Thank you, Mr Agnew. The outcome of the Office for National Statistics (ONS) review is expected shortly. While the result may be anticipated, we must await the formal notification and the detail of the ONS rationale before responding. <BR /> <BR />Any reclassification from the private to the public sector will affect how the bodies are treated in departmental budgets. Any new borrowing by them would require capital DEL budget cover and would therefore place a significant pressure on already constrained resources. I am working alongside the Communities Minister — in fact we met at 10.30 am today and this issue was very high on the agenda — and our officials are ensuring that we are ready to respond to the ONS decision.”
“But if that is too much of a stretch, what if there was a special case? What if the Irish Government and the British Government were to fight for a special case that will not, in fact, mean that because Wales and England voted to leave, we should be dragged out of the heart of Europe? <BR /> <BR />If you liberate your mind in that way in the time ahead, who knows what possibilities you, perhaps, could dream up for your next question?”
“It is good to be back. I had accused him of being "can't do", and he has started the new session by failing to have a special motion considered here today. <BR /> <BR />Maybe he has powers of seeing the future that the rest of us do not have. He thinks that he is superhuman, so perhaps he has that power as well. However, not even the British Government know where this is going: Liam Fox, when he is not abusing business people, does not know where this is going; and David Davis, the Minister for Brexit, could not tell me what Brexit meant. Unless you can see the future in your crystal ball and know what will happen — who knows? — your bet is on the wrong horse in this race. Instead, you should try to change the "can't do" mentality and think about this. What if, first of all, we remain, which is our position of course?”
“I thank the Member for his question. I have missed him over the summer.”
“The impact of Brexit, which I will work hard to prevent, would be felt harder in the Creggan than in Bangor, with all my best wishes to Bangor. It would be felt harder in Sandy Row than in parts of my constituency along the Malone Road. When we appear sanguine about the possible Brexit, we do a disservice not only to our ethnic minorities or those trying to build businesses but to those who are building the peace — the peacemakers and bridge-builders in our working-class communities.”
“Do not minimise the damage that would be caused by Brexit, if it ever happens — I am hopeful that it never will happen — because the modelling that we did pre-referendum on the impact revealed that the downturn/recession would be harder and longer in the North of Ireland than in Britain. While the data gives us a varied picture — it is not a clear picture — it does show that we are being hit harder than Britain by the economic impact of the EU referendum decision. <BR /> <BR />Feeding that in, we absolutely need to be vigilant about this funding, and not just because it amounts to hundreds of millions of euros going to great projects such as the Free Derry museum, the Skainos Centre in east Belfast, WAVE, Relatives for Justice and other bodies.”
“It is very early in the new term to be apologising, Mr McCann. I take the point that you make. Those issues — building an inclusive and prosperous society, opportunity for all and equality for all — are absolutely at the top of my agenda, but I think that you minimise the damage and dangers of Brexit. <BR /> <BR />You campaigned for Brexit, and I think that that was a mistake. Every representative of ethnic minorities whom I have met in the city of Belfast and further afield who are fearful of the impact of the EU referendum vote are also of the opinion that it was a mistake for anyone to campaign to leave, especially those who work for ethnic minorities.”
“I hope that the Irish Government make that a focus of their discussions with the British Government.”
“I thank Mr Agnew for his question. No, there has not been any detail, and I am sure that you would be first to know if there were any detail. It is my opinion that a hard border would be a disaster for the island. Of course, I am also of the opinion that the EU referendum, the vote to leave, and leaving would be devastating for our economy and for our society. I do not want to go into the details of our discussion, but it was not only at that meeting that I referred to a "special case". It would be unfair to say that we discussed it; the meeting was focused on SEUPB and INTERREG funding. Generally, I have seen it picked up from many sources, this belief that there should be a special case for the North of Ireland, and that is certainly a line of argument and approach that I think is commendable.”
“Thank you, a Cheann Comhairle. I want to be as helpful to the Member as possible. The Executive have met since the referendum and are focused on a united and common purpose around maximising the funding available to us from Europe and to mitigating the damages of this period of uncertainty and of the EU referendum.”
“I do not want to compromise the process, but I am pleased that 16 projects were cleared and that €124 million is ready to go through the system. I am confident that letters of offer will be issued long before the autumn statement on 23 November.”
“I thank the Member for his question; he is absolutely right to focus on the projects in his constituency. I know that many Peace applications from his constituents are either bubbling under or are about to go in, and I hope that we see those completed so that we can process them. INTERREG is making more progress than any of the other European programmes. In July, we signed off €4 million for a cross-border project — the Shared Waters Enhancement and Loughs Legacy (SWELL) project — between Louth and County Down, which also includes Carlingford and Foyle. Last week, on 7 and 8 September, we signed off, I think, 16 projects and €124 million. I am not in a position to name the projects; some were put back for additional information, and some were rejected.”
“Those who really think that the British Government are going to stand in and be generous with funding must not be aware that, between now and 2020, the British Government are cutting our resource budget by 4·5% in real terms. <BR /> <BR />In the here and now, they are attacking our budgets, and they are making it difficult for us to pay for our health service and education service. To anyone who really believes that in the future they will have a change of heart, adopt a much more benign attitude and follow through with additional funding once they have, I say that I do not think that will really happen for Newtownards, Bangor, Ballymena, Ballymurphy or Derry in the time ahead, but I know some Members travel in hope.”
“I might wait until Santa comes in December to see whether that £350 million a week is in that particular goody bag from him. I will say this, and it is maybe something that the Member will understand: yes, the dangers of a Brexit are grave, but, at the same time, I think that around the Executive table people are united in trying to minimise the dangers of that outcome, if it should happen, and some of us, of course, are resolved to prevent it happening. <BR /> <BR />I think it is very true that not only rural constituencies but the border regions especially have benefited most, I think, from Peace funding. Perhaps the inner-city areas have done, but that also applies to the border regions. I will repeat this: we are a net beneficiary of European funding.”
“The Irish Government have a real role to play here, I think directly with the British Government, in arguing for a special case. In my view, the special case should be to remain, but certainly the Irish Government, I think, have a lead role, and I welcome the Taoiseach addressing some of those issues at the weekend. But for us, we should, I think, remain committed to and focused on the work in hand while those other, perhaps greater powers — the Commission, the European Governments and the Irish and British Governments — get about their work. While they do so, I think you will agree with me that we have much to do on the ground in the here and now.”
“I think the Member would agree that we should be focusing on the work in hand on not only maximising funding but putting in place the type of growth strategy that he argued for for the economy and that we want to see. <BR /> <BR />None of us can see into the future, and, of course, tomorrow is promised to no one. I am not too sure where this is leading. I am not sure what the timescale will be. I think that the Prime Minister, Theresa May, indicated that next year she would trigger article 50; Mr Davis seemed to be more about the spring on that; and some people have said that it could be in not only two years but many years. Let us just see how it develops while defending our interests. <BR /> <BR />However, there is one thing I will say, and I agree with the Member about putting our best foot forward.”
“I thank the Member for his question. Of course, the detail of conversations will remain confidential, as he might expect, but I am going to break a confidence. At the meeting with David Davis, he said, "Brexit means Brexit", and I asked him, "But what does Brexit mean?" Unfortunately, he does not know, Theresa May does not know and Mr Hammond does not know. But it will become clear what the negotiating position of the British Government is, and I think when we have the fog cleared out of Westminster, that will be very helpful to us. <BR /> <BR />Let us not hang around waiting for the Holy Trinity of Liam Fox, Boris Johnson and Mr Davis to get their act together.”
“The message I have brought with me is that we want to ensure that there is no falling back, because we are making progress as a society, and that we do not let this setback — I have no doubt that it is a setback over the EU referendum — deter us from moving forward. I look forward to your invitation, and I look forward to taking it up.”
“Absolutely. There is not enough fun in my life, so if the Ulster Unionists want to bring the actual programme and meet on that as well, we can discuss the document that you launched today, which I have not had the opportunity to study yet. I am convinced that there are no advantages to the border region you represent from a Brexit — from a Leave. That said, we are in there fighting to ensure that those border regions, in particular, get maximum funding from all the EU programmes. <BR /> <BR />In recent weeks I have visited Fermanagh on several occasions — Newry, Warrenpoint; I have even been to Crossmaglen.”
“One of the points that I think will please you is that I raised the derogation limits for Departments to €5 million, so that they could sign off on more projects without coming for that second sign-off from the Department of Finance. That involves a little bit of trust, but I think it has been rewarded, and it means that we have shaved a little bit of time off the waiting process for applicants.”
“I thank the Member for his question. I want to be as diplomatic as possible — I know there is no one listening. Yes, that is something that I have brought up at various meetings. This is two Governments and the European Commission and local bodies and, sometimes, intermediary bodies. It is complex and it is complicated, but, in my view, a little bit of simplicity would go a long way to getting money out the door quickly to the areas where it is needed and where it can make a difference and create jobs and opportunities for our young people. I have brought that issue up, and I think we are getting the balance right. <BR /> <BR />For your information, we did try to shorten application times to 36 weeks — it may sound like a long period, but, of course, it could go to different Departments — and I think we are succeeding in that.”
“They are under the cosh, because they have to approve these programs at a much quicker pace than they did previously. Despite that, I started off today's statement by deliberately naming and praising Frank Duffy at my Department and Gina McIntyre at SEUPB. I have confidence that they are alive to the risks Mr Wells points to and that they will ensure that we do issue contracts and have letters of offer only to projects that are sustainable and will do well.”
“I thank the Member for his question, which is a fair question. However, he might accept that, in the past, perhaps we were not as fast as we could have been. We did not move with the alacrity that applicants for European funds may have wished to see. Over the last 24 months, we have been trying to shorten the times, so that has been in our favour. <BR /> <BR />The INTERREG programme had a year's start. I think that there is €280 million. As I stand here today, about €130 million has been issued, so I do not think that it is an issue for INTERREG. I think that it is an issue for Peace funding, and the Special EU Programmes Body is alive to that. It wants to make sure that the applications and bids that are clear are top quality and sustainable. I have to say that, yes, they are under pressure.”
“There is a great danger that international talent will not want to be associated with research projects from our universities. It is up to us to work twice as hard and to put in place not only the guarantees from the Westminster Government but an additional commitment by the Executive to our universities in this uncertain time, which the Member has lobbied for.”