Máirtín Ó Muilleoir
South Belfast · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“Go raibh maith agat as an cheist sin. I think it must. I followed the Public Accounts Committee under my colleague Mr Swann, and I read the devastating October hearing when Ofgem appeared.”
“While the areas it will investigate will be wide-ranging, it will necessarily include key areas in which there has been huge public interest, including the development and roll-out of the RHI scheme by the then Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment; the signing off of the scheme by the then Department of Finance and Personnel; th…”
“I thank Mr Clarke for that question. I know that Mr Clarke was at the PAC hearing that Robin Swann had the wonderful occasion to chair. I would have paid money to attend that because it was certainly a difficult session for the PAC.”
“In relation to the question asked, I want to speak in particular of the seven months that I have been in the Department of Finance. I have been deeply impressed by the commitment, diligence and alertness of my officials to the RHI scandal. I mentioned previously alerting the Comptroller and Auditor General.”
“Ba mhaith liom buíochas a thabhairt don Chomhalta as an cheist sin. I think that any inquiry will ask what went wrong, where it went wrong, who was accountable and what happened. In that context, I am totally convinced that the decision to involve Ofgem in the RHI scheme was a major mistake. Ofgem has failed.”
“Therefore, I wish to reassure the public by setting out the steps that I think must be taken to ensure absolute openness and transparency. The arrangements I have detailed in this statement are intended to ensure this.”
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“It would not be Question Time if, somehow or other, the Alliance Party did not get the social investment fund into every question. I am neither the First Minister nor the deputy First Minister, he will be pleased to note. <BR /> <BR />I cannot think of a programme or an area of government that could not become more efficient. At the same time, I think that we should all acknowledge that there have been Trojan efforts, in recent times in particular, to deliver services more efficiently and, at the same time, do so in a way that saves money for the public purse. What I will say is that he can take it that I am 100% committed to making sure that every penny of public money that we have is guarded zealously and that, when it is spent, it is spent properly and in a way that is of benefit to the public.”
“<BR /> <BR />I hope that we can do it in a way in which we can join up with councils or business organisations if there is a business improvement district to get extra power behind this push so that we are not standing alone on these matters and on the proposal. None of this will work, if it is seen in isolation. It really needs all those who have goodwill and have the interests of the high streets and town centres at heart to work together. The Member can be assured that I will work closely with those whom he represents. He can also be assured that I am convinced that we have to do things differently and that this will get a bigger bang for our buck.”
“I think that I am visiting your constituency either before or after Christmas to meet businesspeople and, no doubt, this will be high on the agenda. <BR /> <BR />I have not actually stated one definitive definition of retail. There are areas — hairdressers, for example — that seem to me to be services that are very close to retail. For things like payday lending and other matters — I have to apologise to my many friends who are accountants and solicitors — there are a lot of people who occupy offices and bring footfall to town centres. They have enjoyed business rate relief for seven years, but we now need to focus on the hospitality sector and the small retail sector.”
“The only thing that I will say to him is this: let us not water down the proposals so that we end up with something that does not make an impact. If he can give me that assurance, I can assure him that I will consult all my colleagues on the best way forward as, of course, I must do.”
“I do, and I think that we have to move forward on these matters together. The Member knows that not every business organisation or business is supportive of the direction in which I am moving. We cannot ride roughshod over people. I ask him to bear in mind, however, that we need to do something different. We introduced a set of, if you wish, emergency business reliefs for small businesses in 2010 at a time of terrible economic crisis. I am not underestimating the challenges facing businesses today, but I think we have made progress. <BR /> <BR />I will try to take as many people as possible into account. As the Member will be aware, I do not think for a minute that I have all the answers; the proposals will be tweaked as they come forward.”
“They are not getting everything that they want, or some councils are not getting everything that they want, but in no way is there any lessening of pace, and I intend to match that pace in the time ahead.”
“In the Budget, I hope to bring forward measures focused on councils as full partners, and as they step up we will step up with them. The Member deals in particular with Belfast City Council, and I understand some disappointment in these matters. <BR /> <BR />Tonight, I am attending a meeting that involves Belfast City Council about investment in the city centre. Before Christmas, I hope to engage again with Lisburn and Castlereagh about investment. I have been contacted by Mid Ulster District Council. Just last week, I was at a dinner in Derry attended by John Kelpie, the CEO of Derry City and Strabane District Council. <BR /> <BR />We should take our inspiration and take heart from the attitude of councils.”
“I do not agree with that. I do not reduce councils to just the high street. I heard a senior person on Belfast City Council talking this week about projects that, as he will acknowledge, are as important, pioneering and transformative as any on the island of Ireland. <BR /> <BR />As I engage with CEOs, I have made it my business to engage with the mayors and the chairs, who come from all parties. I do not know whether the Member has seen this, but he knows that I met his brother who is a councillor in Belfast at a gathering in Lisburn, and I sense a change of direction and a greater ambition. Yes, absolutely, some councillors are disappointed that they are not getting all the powers that they wanted. However, I do not agree with the Member that that will negate or hold back the ambition and the boldness that I see.”
“Actually, I have met the 11 councils, and I do not see any of them with heads down or not willing to embrace the new opportunities that come from being larger councils. I have been in communication with some of the chief executives, whom the Member also knows, and am in no doubt that, in the time ahead, you will see a stepping-up and a considerable ramping-up of activities by councils as they are masters of their own destiny and will lead the charge for investment in their boroughs and cities.”
“We are now making significant progress. I hope that we will get an OK from the Office for National Statistics and that we can move the investment fund off balance sheet, which means that we could deliver it in the middle of next year. As the Chairwoman is very aware, there are a lot of private sector people with energy projects in particular who really hope that we get this investment fund up and running because they will be coming to our door asking to borrow money to make transformative investments in the community.”
“We are doing better than we were when the Member, or one of her colleagues, last brought this up. She knows that we had some disappointing news from the European Investment Bank. We thought that it was not prudent for it to proceed along the lines that we had originally envisaged with the NI investment fund, which was first put forward by your colleague Minister Hamilton.”
“That is commonplace south of the border. Cork city in particular has published an evaluation recently of how it uses Per Cent for Art. It is common in parts of Europe and very common in San Francisco and New York that, when you undertake a capital project, you set aside a percentage for the arts. The consequence of that is that you really change the entire cityscape, or landscape of a city. It is my wish that we reinvestigate how Per Cent for Art, which existed but we have stopped for many years now, might be brought back to the centre of the procurement process and the centre of the building process. When you go to many great cities across Europe and the US and see new investment in capital build, you also see new works of public art. That is a good way to go, and I hope to be able to bring forward more ideas on that to the House.”
“In addition, I have recently appointed seven new external members to the procurement board from the private and voluntary and community sectors to determine how we spend our money. That includes Colin Maxwell, who is an artist and architect. I have tasked him with bringing forward proposals to promote architectural excellence and to further the arts in the Executive's infrastructure projects.”
“Aside from the real terms increases in our local capital Budget, I plan to utilise any additional capital funding that may be announced tomorrow as part of the Chancellor's autumn statement to take forward an economic stimulus package with the agreement of my Executive colleagues and the House. That is a good idea, and we will be bringing it forward. <BR /> <BR />I also plan to ensure that the Executive seek ways in which to introduce capital investment from other sources. That is why I have organised a symposium with Ibec and the CBI on 27 January. It will give the construction and business sectors an opportunity to engage with government on investment opportunities and, of course, on where the funding will come from.”
“He will agree that we have made a start, but we are nowhere near where I would like us to be. I want people to get their rates bill and be able to see what council services they are paying for but also how their rates are making a contribution to the greater government Budget.”
“I thank the Member for his question. Perhaps that is going to be a little bit more urgent after today, because of the changes that we are making to business and domestic rates. Although we have had a stab at it, when we issue rates bills, we are only starting. People need to have a clearer view of where their money is going. <BR /> <BR />I found it interesting when a deputation came here from the Basque Country a month or two ago. We met the group in Newry, and one of the points that they made was that they collect all their taxation and duty. They said that people really understand what they are getting for their money. They do not let the Government away with anything but have great engagement with them. Very importantly, compliance — the willingness to pay taxes — has increased. <BR /> <BR />The Member has brought up the issue before.”
“<BR /> <BR />As the British Government settles, Philip, that will enable us to bring forward a Budget system that, in fairness to some of my colleagues in other parties and in particular to Mrs Hanna of the SDLP, lets us simplify the entire process. There is a complicated Budget process. Let us simplify it internally, but also let us make sure that people outside understand what is being delivered and how it is being delivered.”
“I thank the member for his question. I ask the Member to get on the phone to Mr Hammond, because if it was not for the dog's dinner, the mess and the shambles of the British Government, we would have had our Budget presented to the House long before now. Unfortunately, due to those difficulties and the crisis in London, our ability to bring forward a three-year resource Budget has been hampered. On the other hand, I will speak to the Chief Secretary tonight and we will see the outworkings of the autumn statement tomorrow. We will move expeditiously to bring a Budget in front of the House. I believe that I will recall the House to do that before Christmas. I hope that we will have as long, or longer, than we had to review the Budget last year.”
“However, more than that, we want people to be proud of the services that are delivered and understand how much we appreciate the contribution that their taxes — all types — make to the delivery of those services.”
“The interesting thing about the Open Government Network is that — maybe Members will not be surprised at this — the majority of people who pay rates, or pay tax or are the recipients of our services, generally, do not know where the money comes from or how it is allocated. To encourage not only compliance but engagement with our citizens, it would be helpful if we could publish, after the upcoming Budget, for example, a summary, hopefully on the website but also in other formats as well, to let people know how the money is divided up. It lets them know the amount that we raise on their behalf but also how the money is allocated between Departments. Sometimes, the confusion around what taxation is paid and how it is delivered back into the communities would be clarified by such a system.”
“I thought you were going to congratulate me on driving through these questions. This is the first time that I have managed to get to Question 6. <BR /> <BR />I thank the Member for his question on the citizens' budget. I am committed to open and transparent government, and I am convinced that the production of a citizens’ budget would be a positive development for all of us. I have asked my officials in the open government team to work with the Open Government Network to determine what a citizens’ budget might look like and to progress this work at pace to allow its publication to become standard practice over this mandate.”
“No, the driver does not come from the pool of Civil Service drivers, but if you can find a superman or superwoman who wants to take on this job from within that pool, no doubt some people would consider that. The present system works very well. It delivers for the Department and for me, and it is a system that has been in place for some time now. There have been efforts to snipe at the driver, who has a huge commitment to this institution, to the Department and to the Minister. He is doing a very good job, and the system is a very good system.”
“Yesterday was quite similar: we again started early with a coffee at 8.00 am; we were in this place and then had one more meeting; I was home at around 10.00 pm, and he was home later. When I was Lord Mayor of this great city, I had the privilege of having three drivers who worked full out and did a great job. In my view, we have discovered the three-in-one, in that my driver is performing the same job that three people performed.”
“He claims that he is overworked — that is the first thing. I thank the Member for his question. Mar atá a fhios agat, tá sé de chlú ar mo thiománaí gur oibrí díograiseach é agus go gcuireann sé uaireanta fada isteach. Bhí sin le feiceáil an tseachtain seo chuaigh thart agus inné. My driver has a reputation for hard work, early starts and long hours. He neither clocks in nor out for me. Last Thursday, we started — this is not untypical — with a breakfast with Chartered Accountants Ireland in the Clayton Hotel in Belfast city centre and ended after meeting the Kilkeel Harbour Works folk at Annalong. It was a 7.30 am start for me and perhaps an 11.00 pm end. The car, of course, has to be parked up and so on, so the driver would start earlier than me. Where I am from, it is basically a 17-hour day.”
“I am not responsible for the car fleet or the policy, but, if the Member wants to bring forward any alterations to the policy, I am happy to consider them.”
“I thank the Member for his question. During the past three complete financial years, the running costs for the ministerial car were £748 for 2013-14; £1,406 for 2014-15; and £3,687 for 2015-16. Those costs include fuel, maintenance and MOT-related expenses. The figures are subject to yearly variations depending on the Minister in charge and the associated mileage and fuel usage. They are also dependent, of course, on whether the car is under warranty and subject to an agreement for servicing.”
“I was on both coasts, and I met different audiences; some were Irish-American audiences and some were solely business audiences, such as the meeting that we had in the Airbnb and those with other businesses. No one put up their hand and said, "We think this is a great idea that you're leaving the EU and the single market". I think that it is fair to say that those who wish to use us as a base for investment see us as being a gateway to the EU. The Member will not be surprised by that; it has been repeated many times by our friends on both coasts, particularly those who have been working closely with us over recent years. Of course, you know some of them.”
“I am here to speak as Minister. In the seven days that I spent in the US, we did enormously beneficial work for the community here. As I travelled from coast to coast, I received a gracious welcome from people who are focused on the work ahead, people who want to build rather than tear down and people who want to accentuate the positive rather than focus on the negative. <BR /> <BR />If you ever have the opportunity to travel representing this Government, I think that you will find that it is more arduous than you might believe. While I had free time, I was not able on this occasion to use it to represent Sinn Féin or take on any other responsibilities.”
“Yes, I do. I think that the Member will find it interesting that the person who gave us a tour of the Airbnb building in San Francisco was a Belfast-born gentleman called Marc McCabe. We have friends right across the US who are determined to ensure that the peace process is transformed into a prosperity process. Not only are they right across every sector of society, whether it be arts, community, third sector or education, but they are in politics. You will find that we have political friends on both sides of the aisle. While there has been traumatic change, some would say, or tumultuous change in US politics, the constant will be that there is continued support for the peace and prosperity process here.”
“A number of avenues for continued cooperation and collaboration are being discussed, and I am hopeful of reporting back to the Assembly in the time ahead on plans to deepen this process of engagement to our mutual benefit. During this trip, my officials, working with the assistance of Invest NI and the bureau, also held some very helpful meetings with various finance officials to consider what options might be progressed to enhance external financing for companies and projects here.”
“I thank the Member for her question. I had a very constructive visit to the US. I met a number of influential public finance and Government representatives, including the New York State Comptroller, Tom DiNapoli; San Francisco Treasurer, José Cisneros; the California State Controller, Betty Yee; and the Chief Deputy Treasurer of California, Collin Wong-Martinusen. I also addressed a meeting of tech leaders in the Airbnb building in San Francisco which was convened by serial entrepreneur Seamus McAteer and, at the request of Invest NI, met a potential investor. <BR /> <BR />I view all these meetings as ongoing engagements.”
“I will just say one thing about the entire construction industry: one of the best visits that I have had the pleasure to make as Minister was to the South West College in Enniskillen, where they have absolutely focused on this area of work and are skilling up young people to deliver zero-carbon and passive-energy homes. They have forged a path that is unique in Ireland. If we really want to be up in the champions' league of European homes which are low carbon or zero carbon, we need to partner with business and the construction industry. The value will therefore be not only in energy efficiency and tackling fuel poverty, but in gearing us up for a set of skills that will increasingly be in demand in the time ahead as we try to increase our delivery of buildings which are carbon neutral, low carbon or zero carbon.”
“If the Member wishes, I am happy to ask my officials to give him an individual briefing. I know that he will have lots to say about this and lots of input. If he wants to have that input early, I am very happy to oblige.”
“First of all, you can be sure of one thing: you and I are going in the same direction on this. I believe that it would be advantageous for us as a society to encourage the development of low-carbon and zero-carbon homes. The measures that I take forward, whether in primary or subordinate legislation — I suspect that it will be primary — will be aimed at trying to encourage homeowners and developers to develop homes which are compliant and eligible for grant aid or rates relief or support in the time ahead. We now need to get into the fine detail. We have done a fair bit of work. The landscape has changed since this was originally introduced, which is why we could not just retrofit and put it back in, but I am pleased with the briefing that I have received so far from my officials.”
“I thank the Member for his question. As Mr Agnew will be aware, in 2011, the then Finance Minister, Sammy Wilson, made the decision to withdraw the scheme for low-carbon and zero-carbon homes. I see merit, however, in using the rating system to help to increase and incentivise environmental sustainability. Since taking up ministerial office, I have asked my officials to undertake work on the feasibility of a more modern and tailored scheme in this area. That work is ongoing in my Department.”
“As the Member knows, I am not the Minister for Infrastructure, but we find common ground in that we both believe that this is a priority project that could transform the road infrastructure of Belfast. It is my view that we should speak to everyone who has influence over these matters, including the European infrastructure fund, which will not come on stream until 2018, and the British Government. It remains a priority. I think that the Member and I are agreed on this: we need to and will deliver the York Street interchange.”
“Let us make the case for those programmes and for funding for them to continue. I would be surprised if any Member would like the Minister of Finance to say to the British Government, "Don't go any further to guarantee EU revenue streams". I expect that everyone here would be disappointed if I did not go the extra mile to ensure that funding from Europe continues or is replaced in full.”
“I disagree with the Member. When we first said to the Chancellor, "Will you guarantee Peace and INTERREG funding?", some people thought that that could not happen, because why would he guarantee funding after September, as it was at that stage. We secured that. We then had a much more important victory when the Chancellor said that he would guarantee all funding as long as it was signed off before an exit or our relations with the EU changed. Our friend Theresa May said yesterday that there could be a transitional parting of the ways. It could be not two years but 15 years, for all anyone knows. Let us put our best foot forward in relation to CAP payments after 2020, ERASMUS and the other wonderful programmes that allow our young people to enjoy the bounty of Europe.”
“I am reasonably confident that we will have issued all our letters of offer under INTERREG and Peace by the spring of next year. On anyone's timeline, that is well within the period guaranteed by the Chancellor. I should also say that I had the opportunity in Brussels last week to address the 27 other states at a lunch as part of the general affairs council meeting of the regions. I managed to address the 27 other Ministers for Europe. I thought that we had a sympathetic listen. Sympathy is not really what we want, but I think that actions will follow. There is an awareness that the peace process is the crowning achievement of the European Union, and it will take additional steps to make sure that the peace process is protected and that we get a special deal or special recognition in the time ahead.”
“As the Minister responsible for Peace funding and INTERREG funding in particular — other Ministers have responsibility for other packages and other streams of funding — I have made it my priority, as the House would expect, to try to protect those funding streams. I have tried to expedite the issuing of letters of offer, taking due cognisance of the need to not rush into arrangements that are less than the excellence we expect in our letters of offer and our projects. Last week, as part of this work, I was pleased to be able to report to our colleagues in the European Union that letters of offer for €120 million had been issued in relation to INTERREG and that the first letters of offer in relation to Peace had been issued. <BR /> <BR />There is a little way to go. Some programmes have opened just recently.”
“Yes, but the Member has to listen this time, so we will try again. You are right: absolutely, as I said in my answer, any letters of offer signed off before relations with the EU change will be honoured in full. Any letters of offer signed off after that, if such a thing could happen, will not be honoured in full. There are programmes, including infrastructure programmes, that we believe will not even open until 2018, and it is possible that letters of offer will not be signed or issued until after an exit from the EU. I am very clear on that, I think Mr Hammond is very clear on it as well and I think Ministers are.”
“With your permission, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will answer questions 1 and 3 together. <BR /> <BR />The guarantee for structural and investment fund projects signed prior to any change of relations with the EU applies to all projects approved under those funds. I have already placed a copy of the correspondence in that regard from the Chief Secretary to the Treasury in the Assembly Library. I visited Brussels last week, where I continued to press the importance of EU funding and continued full engagement with the EU. As the Member knows, I have taken and will continue to take all opportunities available to me to vigorously promote the interests of this jurisdiction within the EU.”
“On a point of order, I am happy to name Dr McDonnell and Declan Boyle as going around doors —”
“There is no doubt that some people who heretofore did not make as much of a contribution as they should will have to shoulder more of the burden, because we are making the system fairer in the time ahead. <BR /> <BR />I am always up for listening to other proposals on how to raise more rates. As you know, there was a bit of a love-in when we removed rates entirely from community amateur sports clubs and extended that to pigeon clubs. Everybody is in favour of removing rates, but, if Lord Morrow has other proposals around how we might bring forward other measures to raise rates, I am certainly all ears. Make no mistake: when we finish the exercise, with the support of the House, there will be £16 million recurring each year more in government coffers and £10 million more in council coffers.”
“Lord Morrow, you have to read past the first few pages. Much of the statement is about people who do not pay their rates, including landlords who pay 50% empty property rates, which will go up to 75% — still way off where Scotland is. That will make a difference. It involves those who do not pay rates on empty factories; we are trying to get that right as well. They will add to the tax base. Through many of the things that we are doing we are trying to bring in more money, not just for Fermanagh and Omagh District Council but for all councils and for government coffers. Of course, we have just spent the best part of 30 minutes discussing the big one: the people who are not paying at the minute are those who enjoy the domestic property cap, and that is going as well.”
“I thank the Member for her question. No, I do not think that it will have a detrimental effect on the valiant efforts of our universities to attract people from outside this jurisdiction to study here; it will make the system fairer. Other students who live away from home pay rates in other types of accommodation that are almost like halls of residence — we see those springing up across the city. It is a small change to the system. We consulted on it. I think it is time. I have not yet spoken to my dear friends in the University of Ulster or Queen's University, but they have strong cases to make on overall funding, and I am listening to that very carefully. I do not think that this will make any difference to their efforts to attract students. All we are doing is making the system more equitable.”
“As you know, some stakeholders are very supportive and some are not so supportive, but we need to get it right, and, if we do not have the evidence, we will not really know what we are doing. I am happy to work through with the Member how we gather evidence; how we decide whether it is having the desired effect; how we can ensure that it does not have effects that we do not want; and how we can augment and enhance what is working well for us and abandon things that are not working.”
“That is a fair question. As you know, we really did not do that with the last scheme, but that was in the mouth and the maw of a terrible economic crisis. With this scheme, it maybe needs to evaluated every two years, but certainly no longer than that. I think that you will agree, as a former Minister for the Economy, that Neil Gibson's Economic Policy Centre does good work. We are happy with the work that it does. As I said, we are commissioning in other areas, and I would be very happy if it is the body that is commissioned. <BR /> <BR />We cannot rely on anecdotal evidence and need to assess whether this is working. If it is not working, we need to do something else. I am confident that it will work.”
“The new living wage is £8·45, but businesses that pay that can have the proud boast that they are Living Wage Foundation companies. If any small business in retail or hospitality can say to us, "I won this accreditation", that, for me, would be enough to entitle it to ask for and receive rate relief. I hope that that encourages more companies to look seriously at how they can increase the money that they pay their staff. Of course, when you have added investment in staff, you will demand more productivity, but all that moves people up the business and job value chain. My officials will be speaking to the Living Wage Foundation people today, and this relationship can only benefit businesses and employees in the time ahead.”
“We are now saying that it is targeted at small retail and hospitality, but, as well as that, you have to apply. It is a very simple application process, but you have to prove that you have made an investment in your business. If your rate relief is £1,000, you need to show us that you spent £1,000 on new equipment and skills training, and you employed more staff. We want to make it online-only and really simple, but, for the first time, you will have to ask for the rate relief. In my mind, that is a sea change because people will now understand that they are earning something and are entitled to it, but they have to ask for it. <BR /> <BR />In my view, another way for a business to be entitled to the new business rate relief system is for it to be accredited with the Living Wage Foundation, which accredits businesses.”