Máirtín Ó Muilleoir
South Belfast · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“Go raibh maith agat as an cheist sin. I think it must. I followed the Public Accounts Committee under my colleague Mr Swann, and I read the devastating October hearing when Ofgem appeared.”
“While the areas it will investigate will be wide-ranging, it will necessarily include key areas in which there has been huge public interest, including the development and roll-out of the RHI scheme by the then Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment; the signing off of the scheme by the then Department of Finance and Personnel; th…”
“I thank Mr Clarke for that question. I know that Mr Clarke was at the PAC hearing that Robin Swann had the wonderful occasion to chair. I would have paid money to attend that because it was certainly a difficult session for the PAC.”
“In relation to the question asked, I want to speak in particular of the seven months that I have been in the Department of Finance. I have been deeply impressed by the commitment, diligence and alertness of my officials to the RHI scandal. I mentioned previously alerting the Comptroller and Auditor General.”
“Ba mhaith liom buíochas a thabhairt don Chomhalta as an cheist sin. I think that any inquiry will ask what went wrong, where it went wrong, who was accountable and what happened. In that context, I am totally convinced that the decision to involve Ofgem in the RHI scheme was a major mistake. Ofgem has failed.”
“Therefore, I wish to reassure the public by setting out the steps that I think must be taken to ensure absolute openness and transparency. The arrangements I have detailed in this statement are intended to ensure this.”
The complete record
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“Significant measures are already in place to safeguard elderly pensioners who are asset-rich but income-poor and remain in a high-value family home. We have a generous low-income rate relief scheme that was put in place before the cap came along. In a phased introduction, I wish to charge a regional rate levy of approximately 55% of the rates due on a property to the full value of a home in order to raise an additional £4 million in revenue.”
“<BR /> <BR />Fairness underpins much of what I am presenting today, and that extends to the domestic rating system. When the capital value system was being designed, it was designed on the basis that you paid in direct proportion to the value of your home. However, the application of the £400,000 cap means that those in houses with a higher value pay proportionately less than those in middle- or lower-value homes. To me, that is inherently unfair. Take Bill Gates's house — I know that many people would like to take the house of Bill Gates — he pays $1 million a year in property tax on his $100 million Washington state home. If he lived here, the rates on that home would be less than $5,000 a year.”
“The objective of the measure and, indeed, the whole package is about balancing the tax base, balancing the rates burden and balancing the books after a hard time for business and government finances. I would also like to reassure businesses by enshrining in law revaluations every four years. That happens in many advanced economies throughout the world. <BR /> <BR />As for the level of the regional rate that will be set as part of the Budget and in recognition of the new era for local government, I would like to give councils the choice of striking their own non-domestic district rate, thereby breaking the historic link that exists with the domestic district rate. Such a move could help councils to attract new businesses and retain old ones.”
“I do not want to see those who find themselves in hardship in such circumstances being closed down because they simply cannot pay their rates bill. The legislative apparatus already exists for hardship relief, but few businesses benefit from it. I have therefore asked my officials to review the operation of the scheme to ensure that it provides help for more of those who are in need. <BR /> <BR />My intention to commence a new non-domestic revaluation exercise to take effect in 2019 is a clear response to the calls from the business sector. Coming only four years after the revaluation in 2015, it will make our non-domestic rating system more responsive to changes in the wider world, allow it to flex with economic conditions and help to avoid the shocks that occurred last time round. As before, the process will be revenue-neutral.”
“Indeed, all other students living away from home pay some rates, so this is only fair. Furthermore, I do not believe that it will inhibit the viability of new purpose-built halls of residence, given that student demand is outstripping supply, as the appearance of so many privately run halls testifies. If evidence emerges that university halls of residence need an additional incentive, I will be happy to return to the issue and look at it again. <BR /> <BR />We are moving towards a system that widens the tax base and shares the load. However, many businesses find themselves in serious hardship due to matters completely outside their control and beyond normal business risk. Victims of flooding are one example.”
“However, manufacturing is a vital part of our economy, providing well-paid jobs often in locations where employment opportunities are lacking, and is highly export-orientated. Given that and the challenging economic circumstances faced, I intend to maintain industrial derating. <BR /> <BR />A measure that I would like to remove is the new mines seven-year exemption that has been in place since 1852. I see no good reason for retaining the new mines exemption. <BR /> <BR />I also wish to remove the university halls of residence exemption that was put in place by direct rule Ministers in 2007. This step has already been consulted on, and it will ensure consistency of treatment between those that are managed privately and those that are managed by universities.”
“<BR /> <BR />Aligned with that objective, I propose to introduce the rating of empty factories, a class of property that has never been subject to rates. As well as bringing in extra money — up to £2·2 million a year — into the Executive’s finances and the public purse, it will encourage owners to subdivide or let empty factories. It will also remove any doubt about what is a warehouse and what is a factory. Coupled with both changes, I will move forward with proposals for anti-avoidance measures, making landlords liable for rates when they let their premises out to charities on short-term agreements. <BR /> <BR />At a cost of £58 million, industrial derating is a very generous support to the manufacturing sector.”
“That remains substantially below what is charged in Scotland, for example, where owners are charged 90% on empty properties, and recognises that our local property market is less buoyant than there. I would also like to remove the initial exemption period of three months. I do not think it necessary, it does not apply to the domestic sector, and it leads to complications in administering it. It is my view that this will encourage the letting of empty properties and increase economic activity. It will, of course, provide additional revenue for the Executive, although, more importantly, it will act as a stimulus for landlords holding empty property to sell up or to offer lower rents and get properties occupied by businesses.”
“However, it would move us towards the balance principle that everyone on the high street should start to pay something. That was the strong view reflected in the small business rate relief evaluation. I agree with that direction of travel, with the caveat that I would like any future income from charity shops on the high street to go towards supporting entrepreneurship in the social enterprise sector. I look forward to consulting further on the issue. <BR /> <BR />I would like to address the issue of empty property. Currently, an empty property pays zero rates for three months and 50% thereafter. I want to increase the empty property rate from 50% to 75% of the occupied rate.”
“Charity shops help to bring people into our high streets or small towns, in particular when times are tough, so we need to make sure that we do not upset the healthy retail mix that exists in many areas. I am all in favour of continuing to single out charity shops on the high street for favourable treatment, but there is a case for limiting their growth. We cannot have our high streets just made up of charity shops. In England, Scotland and Wales, most are charged 20% rates, and local authorities in the South can charge charity shops on the high street. If, for example, we reduced support for charity shops on the high street from 100 per cent to 90 per cent — they pay one tenth of their rates bill — that would represent only a small revenue gain for the Executive.”
“Having had the pleasure of working extensively in both areas, I know that the will is there to transform those key arterial roads and that a small investment now can reap dividends for years to come. <BR /> <BR />Another way of revitalising town centres is to make them vibrant living spaces. Therefore, I would also like to take forward a new scheme to incentivise conversion from commercial to residential occupation, by providing a rates incentive for the first occupiers of newly converted premises in our town and city centres. A scheme to encourage people to live in those areas will help to stimulate the night-time economy and assist with issues around footfall that were raised during the consultation. <BR /> <BR />Another issue concerns the treatment of charity shops. This is a matter where we are striving to get the balance right.”
“<BR /> <BR />I also wish to bring forward a business empowerment zone pilot targeted at small-scale regeneration areas and developed in tandem with other Departments and initiatives. I propose to start in Belfast with two pilots, on the Falls and Newtownards Roads, both areas in need of a greater peace dividend. The west Belfast zone, with special rates relief to encourage business and investment, is likely to stretch from Castle Street through the Gaeltacht Quarter to the bottom of the Whiterock Road. The east Belfast zone is likely to stretch from the bottom of the Newtownards Road through the area now the focus for the EastSide Arts renaissance — CS Lewis Square opens tonight, Mr Speaker — to the Holywood Arches. Those will be confirmed in due course.”
“It also found that the scheme contributed little to economic growth and the £18m that it cost would not provide value for money in the long term. It therefore recommended replacing the SBRR with a more targeted initiative. <BR /> <BR />I want to target support under the new scheme at the sectors that are key to the survival of our town and city centres. The statistics show that town centre retail spending is down 10% since the beginning of the century. I would like this new initiative to be easily accessible to small businesses, subject to some simple tests around business investment in the form of, for example, new equipment, skills training or the employment of additional staff. In the time ahead, I would also like to enable companies to access this rates relief by accrediting with the Living Wage Foundation.”
“The rates system should encourage regeneration, investment and entrepreneurship and at the same time discourage dereliction and decline. <BR /> <BR />I will begin with the non-domestic rates proposals. I want to replace the existing small business rate relief scheme with a £22 million investment in small retail and hospitality businesses. That move aligns with the findings of the Ulster University Economic Policy Centre's evaluation, which recommended a more targeted approach. In 2010, the small business rate relief (SBRR) scheme was introduced to provide small businesses with temporary respite from the recession. The Ulster University evaluation found that the scheme had served its limited purpose, helping with cash flow at a particularly difficult time.”
“These are my proposals as Finance Minister, and I look forward to consulting on them with the Finance Committee, of course, with my colleagues on the Executive and with the wider public. Taken together, the measures constitute the biggest shake-up in rating policy in a generation and signal my commitment to a tax system that is fair and supports prosperity. <BR /> <BR />Rates are a vital source of public revenue. Money raised through rates funds our schools, our hospitals and other essential services. My aim in setting out these proposals therefore is ultimately to arrive at a refreshed, fit-for-purpose rating system in which citizens and commercial ratepayers contribute according to their ability to funding the building of a modern, inclusive and exemplary society. I also intend to ensure that rates act more as an economic spur.”
“Thank you for giving me the opportunity, a Cheann Comhairle, to make a statement on a rates rethink, spurring economic growth. Inniu, tá pacáiste beart á mholadh agam a bhfuil sé mar aidhm aige nuachóiriú a dhéanamh ar eilimintí intíre agus ar eilimintí tráchtála an chóras rátála, d’fhonn spreagadh a dhéanamh ar an ngeilleagar mar bhunús ar shochaí roinnte agus rathúil. Is iad seo mo mholtaí mar Aire Airgeadais agus tá mé ag súil le dul i gcomhairle fúthu leis an Choiste Airgeadais, le mo chomhghleacaithe san Fheidhmeannas, agus leis an phobal i gcoitinne. <BR /> <BR />Today, I propose a groundbreaking package of measures aimed at modernising the domestic and commercial elements of the rating system in order to stimulate the economy as the foundation of a shared and prosperous society.”
“I do not want to cry foul, but, as you know, I do not play political football.”
“I admire your doggedness on this issue. The advice, as you know — former Minister Wilson was very firm on this — is that if we open this genie's bottle, we have no idea what it will cost the Executive and whether there will be retrospective claims from other areas and from other public servants who did receive payments. I will give you this guarantee: I will stay on Mr Brokenshire's case until he has given us the reply that we need on this matter. The ball is firmly in his court, and he needs to step up and give us the answer. He needs to meet his obligations.”
“I thank the Member for his vigilance and commitment to this issue. I wrote to the Secretary of State, and the ball is in his court in relation to an equal pay settlement for the cohort of workers that you referred to. I have not received a satisfactory answer at this time, but I will certainly keep in touch with him on the issue. As he is aware, there is no obligation in statute on the Executive to make that payment, but I am aware that many Members feel that there is a moral commitment. Unfortunately, moral commitments are not exactly the same.”
“It is of interest that, in recent years, it is the large companies and, in some cases, large multinational companies such as Citigroup in this city that have made a strong stance in support of diversity. I have no doubt that they will, in the appropriate time, make their views known.”
“I am confident that, in this little part of this small island and these islands, we will see marriage equality. <BR /> <BR />Yes, this issue does come up in the US. It comes up in San Francisco, which is probably the capital of diversity in the US. I was there last week. There is a great belief that the prosperity of Silicon Valley, San Francisco, is based on what Richard Florida refers to as the three T's — technology, talent and tolerance. Each is equally important to me. You will find that many of our friends in the US, to use your words, are disappointed that we have not made enough progress on this issue, because it is seen very much as a civil rights issue in the US. I have no doubt that many of the companies that I have met would be heartened.”
“Yes. The Member should not be disappointed about these matters. As another famous Atlantan said:”
“Yes. I thank the Member for her question. As she may have read or noted, I brought forward to the Executive, not last week but the week before, a proposal that I be allowed to bring forward a consultation on a marriage equality Bill. That was voted down in the Executive, and, therefore, I cannot proceed, as Minister, with that Bill. I therefore hand the baton, as it were, over to the private Members. I know that a number of private Members wish to bring forward a Bill on marriage equality, and that, of course, will have my support.”
“I believe that more can be done, and I hope to get a response from the boord to the letter that I sent. Perhaps we can widen out the discussion to include the US.”
“I think that emerged as a complaint rather than a question. I have recently written to the boord, and I am happy to widen the discussion to include its approach to the US. If it is any help, I will make myself available as a resource. I have been promising to go to Atlanta, in particular, and Nashville, and I have never made that visit.”
“Mo bhuíochas fosta leis an Chomhalta. In the US, as the Member will know, 33 million people ascribe themselves as having an Irish-American identity and about seven million as Scots-Irish. The opportunity to leverage the great sympathy and support that we have among that Scots-Irish cohort in the US has still not been fully seized. I believe it is not only about tourism. It can translate into educational links, economic partnerships and investment. <BR /> <BR />The greatest impact that we can make when we travel to the US is not when we deliver a message that is targeted at just the Irish-American or the Scots-Irish but when we talk about Planter and Gael together; that is the type of message. Scots-Irish and Irish-American together are much stronger than either apart.”
“It may be austerity lite, but it is continuing, and it is a direct instruction and mandate from London over which we have no say — that is, that we have to cut our resource budget by 4%. <BR /> <BR />I know that UCUNF went to the dance with the Conservative Party. I do not know how relations are. Maybe you have moved on to another partner, but if you have any influence, I suggest you apply it to Mrs May and Mr Hammond to say to them that we are under enough pressure in balancing our budgets, building our economy and building a shared future without this 4·1% cut.”
“I am always hopeful that, when Mr Smith gets up, he will tell me that he has been speaking to the Treasury and has made representations, to use the word of Mr Attwood, in relation to the Budget cut. <BR /> <BR />It is not a 4·4% cut next year, but over the period of this mandate, between now and 2020, the resource budget will be subject to a 4%-plus cut from London. That, indeed, is a major challenge to all of us. As you know, wages are going up at least 1%, and there is pressure for an additional increase above that. So, we are under enormous challenges. <BR /> <BR />I said to Mr Gauke, when we met in London last week, that the greatest thing he could do to provide an economic stimulus would be to say that there would an end to that austerity agenda, because that is the austerity agenda continuing.”
“If inflation goes above 2% — that has been the watchword for Governments across Europe — and surges ahead, in my view it will certainly be bad news for those who are at the bottom of the economic ladder and those who are already struggling with their household bills. Some of that we have control over, but much of it we do not. In the time ahead, I think you will agree, we need to make sure that our own economy picks up pace and speed and provides more jobs and opportunities, so that we are not caught in the vice of growing inflation at the same time as the recession that is about to hit us as well.”
“If you had said it was the Bank of Ireland, I may have been more solicitous to your question. In all seriousness, my Budget is my Budget, so the rate of inflation will not affect the cash that we have at hand. However, you know the dangers of inflation. It will put pressure on the public wage bill, because people will say, with much justification, that the cost of living is going up and, therefore, I need an enhanced wage bill. Inflation may push up the cost of food — we have already seen that — and some of this is a consequence of Brexit. I am not sure what side Mr Smith was on at the time — whether he was for "Remain" or "Leave" — but I suspect that he is all for "Leave" now. Some of the spike in inflation is and will be due to the uncertainty surrounding a Brexit. <BR /> <BR />Is a little bit of inflation good? I think it is.”
“I have an open mind on the issue, and I am quite happy for people to bring proposals forward, but, of course, they will not go to me; I suspect that they will go to the Executive Office or Minister Hamilton first.”
“I thank the Member for his supplementary question. A young councillor whom you may know called Tim Attwood is a strong advocate for city deals. I met him at a meeting that I had with the councils in Lisburn, and I attended a partnership panel chaired by the Minister for Communities, Paul Givan, recently where we engaged with councils. I have an open mind on city deals, and I know that some of our friends across the water have embraced them more vigorously than we have. I have said previously to Councillor Attwood that if councils want to bring forward proposals, they should. <BR /> <BR />I have certain reservations about falling back and asking our friends in London to grant us and be dependent on them for a stepping-up of the pace of growth in Belfast, Derry or other areas.”
“I do not spend a lot of time making representations, but my record shows where I stand on councils having the ability to match their ambition in the time ahead.”
“I thank the Member for his question. I do not make a lot of representations to other Departments; usually, they make representations to me. However, since my appointment, I have had a scale of engagement with councils that, I think, you would accept is unprecedented for a Finance Minister. I have visited Mayor Wales in Mid and East Antrim Borough Council and Lord Mayor Kingston in Belfast City Council. I have been to see Chairperson Fitzpatrick in Newry, Mourne and Down District Council several times, and I have visited Fermanagh and Omagh District Council. I am, I think, a booster for councils, and I am an advocate for more powers. Yes, I would like to see the rapid speeding-up of their ability to make a major contribution to the economic growth of our area.”
“However, I am not happy that the British will not guarantee letters of offer and contracts that are signed off after a departure. They need to guarantee them so that we can plan to build, as I said, 100% of the house, not 60% of it. That might work where you are from, but, where I am from, we build the roof as well.”
“There is a great saying in Irish, aithníonn ciaróg ciaróg eile, which means that one beetle recognises another. However, I certainly do not recognise myself as a scaremonger, but I know one person in the House who has a good reputation in that regard. <BR /> <BR />The issue remains, Mr Allister, although it is great that you have the certainty that no one in London can give us. Brexit means Brexit, but it is an omnishambles that has got more confusing in the last seven days. Regardless of what you wish to happen, I am interested not in scaremongering but in getting the facts and getting a guarantee. As I said to Mr Smith and others, I am happy with the guarantee over Peace and INTERREG money until the date of an exit.”
“However, he needs to go further and say that he will stand over letters of offer, particularly for large infrastructure projects, signed after that. Then, he needs to tell us how he will fill the gap in the time ahead.”
“We need the British Government to close that gap as well. They need to guarantee that all the funding we receive at the moment under EU programmes will continue to flow here. I say that particularly in relation to many of the groups that I met — whether they were from the Bogside, Tiger's Bay or south Armagh — at Greenmount College. They are already looking ahead — some to Peace and INTERREG, some to other funds — and asking, "What happens if we are pushed out of Europe? Who will guarantee the funding to the Cedar Foundation, the WAVE Trauma Centre or Relatives for Justice?". The answer is that the British are refusing to guarantee that. <BR /> <BR />I accept it when Chancellor Hammond says that, until exit, he will stand over signed letters of offer.”
“I accept their guarantees, despite my earlier comments to Philip. When the British Government say that they will guarantee the moneys until an exit, if it happens, I accept that. However, there are two areas that we disagree on. <BR /> <BR />The first relates particularly to large infrastructure projects. If the letters of offer are not issued by the time of an exit, which could be March 2019 for our friends in England and Wales, the Government will not guarantee funding. That is a gap, and they need to fill it. As well as that, they need to give us a guarantee now that, when the CAP money disappears, they will replace it. That is essential because 10% of the payments for agriculture from the EU that go towards what you call the UK end up here. A Barnett consequential would mean that only 3% ended up here.”
“Ten INTERREG letters of offer will issue in the week beginning 7 November, which is this week. I believe that they are now in the post or have gone out. They include the Swell project, which comes under the environment theme; the Co-Innovate/InterTradeIreland SME project; five health projects; and three greenway projects. On 2 November, the first Peace II steering committee committed to £13·4 million for the Victims and Survivors Service. I apologise for that long answer.”
“After that meeting, we guaranteed that letters of offer would go out for the moneys that I have direct responsibility for: INTERREG and Peace funding. You will be pleased to know that government does not stop just because I am out of the country, and letters of offer issued last week to INTERREG and Peace projects.”
“I thank the Member for his question. Two Fridays ago, we met at Greenmount campus in County Antrim to discuss EU funding. Representatives attended from across the North and further afield. They are worried not only about EU funding but about government investment plans. I said then — I will say it again — that this Executive is 100% committed to the flagship projects. That includes the A5, the A6, the Belfast transport hub, the mother and children's hospital, the college at Desertcreat and the regional and subregional stadia. <BR /> <BR />The groups that gathered want that reassurance because they understand that it is not about EU funding only; we need a joined-up approach to growing the economy.”
“There is no certainty that that money would be delivered and that letters of offer would be signed off before there is an exit — if there is an exit — by the British from the EU. <BR /> <BR />I have enormous sympathy with you being caught between the NIO and the Executive or me, but I assure you that you will always find a safe berth here. You should place your trust in the Finance Minister at all times.”
“In all cases where there is a difference of opinion, Philip, do not believe the NIO or the Treasury. When David Gauke had that meeting, he had the Secretaries of State for the devolved regions in there as well, who were reasonably mute during the meeting. The situation is summed up by the following analogy: if I wanted to build a house and had the money to build 60% of it, that would great, but would I really do it if I did not have a guarantee on the other 40%? Some of our transport projects in particular, which date out a while, would perhaps not even go out to tender, and Europe would not request bids for them, until 2018. There is no certainty on that 40% so that you can build 100% of your home.”
“<BR /> <BR />The York Street interchange project remains a priority for the Executive and for me, and the Member will have heard me say that publicly. In view of that, a joint working group involving my Department, the Strategic Investment Board and the Department for Infrastructure has been established to look at that project.”
“Thank you, Mr Smith. As you are aware, I met David Gauke, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, on 24 October. The British Treasury continues to refuse to guarantee that it will replace EU funds that are lost after the exit from the EU — if it happens. The British Government need to underwrite not only funds up to the point of leaving the EU but income streams that would have been available to us afterwards. There remains considerable uncertainty for projects without that guarantee of continued funding and without confirmation of the date of leaving the EU — if that happens. "Considerable uncertainty" is diplomatic language; I was away for a short period, and I see that things have become even more confused in my absence.”
“Receipt of that certificate can result in a firm being excluded from public procurement competitions for up to three years.”
“Cinnte. Bless you to the Chair of the Committee as well. Glacann mo Roinn agus an Coiste Feidhmiúcháin an-dáiríre le comhluchtaí nach n-íocann a gcuid fo-chonraitheoirí in am. Feictear seo sna hiarmhairtí do ghnólachtaí a ghlacann páirt i gcleachtas den tseort sin maidir le conarthaí Rialtais, nó d’fhéadfaí teastas míshásúil feidhmíochta a bhronnadh orthu. D’fhéadfaí go gcuirfear cosc ar na gnólachtaí a fhaigheann a leithéid de theatas cur isteach ar chomórtais soláthair phoiblí ar feadh tréimhse nach faide ná trí bliana. The failure of a firm to pay its subcontractors promptly is a matter that the Executive and my Department take very seriously. The ramifications for firms that engage in such practices in government contracts reflect that, as they may be issued with a certificate of unsatisfactory performance.”
“Mr Aiken, I am very happy to encourage that to happen if it is not at the minute. I have met the key group from the construction industry at least twice. I have gone out to visit some of the representatives, including those from the quarry industry, on-site in Maghera and east Belfast. In concert with Executive Ministers, I am resolved to, first, make sure that we green-light, start and deliver projects. The other thing is that we need to get the money spent. I would like to encourage anything that helps transparency in that. I think that the industry accepts that there is really no sense at all in our trying to provide an economic stimulus to the construction sector by green-lighting projects if the money is not then spent and allocated promptly.”
“The Member will know that it can sometimes be a burden on those farther down the work chain if they are waiting for retention money when it does not really make much sense. So, yes, I think that, with public money, we are good at making sure that we have the right impact and that people are paid promptly, but I am happy to look again at the maintenance side if the Member thinks that we are perhaps not just as efficient as we would like to be in that sector.”