Máirtín Ó Muilleoir
South Belfast · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“Go raibh maith agat as an cheist sin. I think it must. I followed the Public Accounts Committee under my colleague Mr Swann, and I read the devastating October hearing when Ofgem appeared.”
“While the areas it will investigate will be wide-ranging, it will necessarily include key areas in which there has been huge public interest, including the development and roll-out of the RHI scheme by the then Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment; the signing off of the scheme by the then Department of Finance and Personnel; th…”
“I thank Mr Clarke for that question. I know that Mr Clarke was at the PAC hearing that Robin Swann had the wonderful occasion to chair. I would have paid money to attend that because it was certainly a difficult session for the PAC.”
“In relation to the question asked, I want to speak in particular of the seven months that I have been in the Department of Finance. I have been deeply impressed by the commitment, diligence and alertness of my officials to the RHI scandal. I mentioned previously alerting the Comptroller and Auditor General.”
“Ba mhaith liom buíochas a thabhairt don Chomhalta as an cheist sin. I think that any inquiry will ask what went wrong, where it went wrong, who was accountable and what happened. In that context, I am totally convinced that the decision to involve Ofgem in the RHI scheme was a major mistake. Ofgem has failed.”
“Therefore, I wish to reassure the public by setting out the steps that I think must be taken to ensure absolute openness and transparency. The arrangements I have detailed in this statement are intended to ensure this.”
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“Tá an-áthas orm bheith anseo leat inniu, go háirithe agus Conradh na Gaeilge ag stocaireacht ar an taobh eile den bhóthar. <BR /> <BR />There is much that is laudable and admirable about the motion brought forward by Ms Lockhart and the amendment brought forward by Mr Lyttle. In fact, some might say it is a very sweet deal for the Education Department. However, as we heard from other Members, it would be a bitter blow to the Department for Communities, to the Department for the Economy, which deals with jobs, to our friends in the Health Department and even to our friends in the Department for Infrastructure who deal with cycling if we were to accept the motion or the amendment, as we would be accepting that the money that will come by and by from this sugar tax will go only to Education.”
“I thank the Member for his question. I hope he is thankful to me for letting him in by my brevity. I support many of the measures that his party has championed around reducing the cost to our society of division. Of course, these matters do not fall to my Department, but I have made clear to every Department I deal with, including those of Minister Givan, who has just joined us, and Minister Weir, that where they can bring people together they should do so, and I believe that there is a cost saving in that.”
“I am happy to repeat to Ms Bradley that I am content that the position I took around the contingency plan and the position that we outlined is correct. Without going into the politics of it, time will tell whether we have huge challenges ahead in terms of offsetting the impact of the efforts to push us out of Europe.”
“I thank Ms Bradley for her question, and I will repeat myself again. When you examine the decision I took on the EU referendum, setting aside party politics, it was about saying that there was no upside economically in this particular vista for us, if there was a vote to leave or if we were forced to leave on the back of a vote in England and Wales. I stand over that. If you view the work that I did around my contingency paper, you will see that it is reflected in the predictions in the document to which you refer.”
“The OPW has 16,000 works. You can see them all online in a beautiful online catalogue, but we do not even have an online catalogue for all the artistic treasures that we have. <BR /> <BR />If I may, Mr Speaker, I will share one quick story, which will take less than two minutes. When Dr Denise Ferran came in to view the art collection, she discovered one of her own artworks which she did 30 years ago. That was good, but as an added bonus she discovered a work by her husband Brian Ferran, which we had bought in 1967. I hope that we can match the Office of Public Works in the South and have a really vibrant online catalogue as well as getting the works out to the public.”
“Mr Speaker, I thought I was Simon Hamilton for a moment there; I got carried away.”
“— his collection in the 60s, but I do not think he would be very pleased with what we are doing today, which is disinvesting and divesting ourselves of our artists. I hope that the Member will come back again —”
“<BR /> <BR />I hope that the little panel of experts that I brought together, which includes Roisin McDonough, the CEO of the Arts Council, Paul Seawright, who is a great artist and the head of the Belfast School of Art, Deirdre Mackel from west Belfast and Paul Terrington from PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC), will come forward with some ideas around liberating the Government art collection and starting to restore it. I do not think that we have bought any of the artwork produced by our local artists in this century. Terence O'Neill revived —”
“After four years, when the graduates leave Ulster University, they have a beautiful end-of-year show. Representatives from the Office of Public Works (OPW) in Dublin come up to buy some of the work, but we do not buy any of it. We used to; we used to believe in investing in our artists. It would be a small amount of money, but artists have to eat too. We need to put our money where our mouth is and we need to invest in our artists, but we then need to share their fabulous work with the rest of the community.”
“The other conviction that I have, and I hope that Members will support it, is that we need to invest in our young artists. Earlier, Mrs Overend mentioned travelling and trying to promote business and make business contacts, but culture counts. People say that they want to come and take up jobs in this jurisdiction because they know that there is a strong cultural base, yet we do not invest in our artists.”
“Some Ministers heard that there was a Government art collection only last week when it was mentioned on the radio. I had lots of people rapping the door trying to get some of the beautiful Neville Johnsons, William Conors and other wonderful pieces. <BR /> <BR />We have 1,400 pieces of magnificent work in our art collection. My desire is to liberate it so that it is not the preserve of Ministers or senior civil servants but can be seen when you visit your local hospital, health centre or job advice centre. My desire is that we make sure that the collection — this wonderful treasure that we have — is shared with our citizens. <BR /> <BR />I have brought together a panel of experts, led by Dr Denise Ferran, who is the president of the Royal Ulster Academy and also an artist.”
“<BR /> <BR />Yes, I will bring some ideas forward. For me, the key areas are independent retailers and anything that helps to build our tourism product. Hospitality, tourism and independent retailers are the key areas, and I will hopefully be able to bring some suggestions to you.”
“That goes back to Mr McGrath's earlier question about Downpatrick. Other areas, such as Banbridge, were mentioned. How do we bring life and vitality back to town centres, which have taken a bit of a hammering over recent years? I have been to Portadown town centre and Newry town centre. Some of this is to do with out-of-town supermarkets, but much of it is to do with there not being enough support for town-centre businesses. <BR /> <BR />I am therefore looking seriously at a new approach to the small business rate relief that would focus on the independent retailers, because they live locally. The money that they bring in is distributed around the economy. Every pound that we spend locally has a 70p benefit to the economy, whereas every pound that we spend in the large supermarkets may have only a 15p or 20p benefit.”
“Capital is very scarce and hard to get, and I would not like to think that entrepreneurial young people are being put out of business because of rates. If the Member wants to come forward with thoughts on the issue, I will look at them sympathetically. Of course, it will be a matter for the Assembly to decide on, but the matter does require looking at sympathetically.”
“We have a very complex, complicated and generous rate relief system, but, notwithstanding that, if we do not get the entrepreneurship piece right, we will not be able to build our economy at the pace at which we wish to build it. I am therefore happy to look at ways in which we can encourage entrepreneurial hubs. We have at least two in Belfast: the Propeller PR idea and Entrepreneurial Spark in Lombard Street. I think that there is one in Ballymena as well, and, if we can look at innovative ways in which to make it worthwhile for people to set up businesses, especially by way of clustering, I am happy to look at that. <BR /> <BR />I am convinced that one of the ways in which to grow our small businesses is to keep them alive for as long as possible.”
“I thank the Member for his supplementary. I do not rise often enough to say that I am very pleased that there has been investment in the north-west, so you can be sure that, on this occasion, I am very pleased to hear that. I hope that it is just the start of a series of investments that we can all agree on. I know that Ballykelly was discussed in my Department earlier today. We are working on other pivotal, transformative projects, not least two roads into the north-west and Magee college, but I believe that the efforts by Eglinton to try to focus on manufacturing in order to get an extra impetus and stimulus to leverage the asset that it has is the right way forward. I hope that we can stand here in the time ahead, Mr Robinson, and commend it on winning that contract for manufacturing, which I know that it is chasing.”
“In my view, it is essential. If we want to reap the benefits of the tourism infrastructure we are putting in place, never mind reap the benefits of our efforts to grow the economy, we need to have more flights coming into the two large local airports.”
“I thank Mr Robinson for his question. I met the Economy Minister yesterday, and among the topics we discussed was the need to try to improve connectivity. He recently visited Germany; you know that the prize we were seeking for a long time was a direct link from Belfast to Germany. I believe that the Berlin flight has started. I have a relative in Germany; he is not very interested in coming home, but he if were, it is now a lot cheaper and easier to come back to Belfast. I think that the Minister is pleased that we have delivered that. The use of the air connectivity fund is a matter for the Minister. <BR /> <BR />I also met recently Brian Ambrose at the City Airport, Graham Keddie at the International Airport and, of course, our friends in the smaller airport in Eglinton. All of them, I know, are determined to get more connections.”
“The Irish Government have a special obligation to make a case to the British Government at this early juncture about how best the crisis unfolding around the EU referendum can be handled. I have no doubt that the document to which you refer, with its very long title, would be helpful to the Irish Government in that regard.”
“I thank the Member for her supplementary. As she will know, I am never surprised when people agree with me; that does not happen very often, mind you. I think she will accept that the case I have made for remaining in Europe is based not on the politics — set the politics to the side for the moment — but on the detrimental impact that it would have on our community, our economy, our tourism and our education sector. I think that that is held up by the evidence in the document that she refers to. What I will say — I perhaps have the privilege of doing this, since I am not wearing a political hat for this discussion — is that there is a real need for all of us to speak to, in particular, our partners in the Irish Government, which is one of the reasons why I was a bit more circumspect than Mrs Little Pengelly in that regard.”
“I did not see anything additional there, but it is, I suppose, added evidence that we are set on a course that, I think, will be very challenging in the time ahead.”
“I thank the Member for her question. A good sign of the importance of a document is how long the title is and how difficult it is to pronounce it. The Member will be aware that, when I came into this post, I commissioned my Department to carry out contingency planning on the effects of a "Leave" vote in the EU referendum. I think that that contingency planning, while relevant only to my Department, emphasised and highlighted the veracity of the report prepared by Neil Gibson for Oxford Economics about the potential downside of a "Leave" vote in all aspects of our economy — tourism, manufacturing, trade and services. I think that the issues highlighted in that document reflect that.”
“I have asked that the three other bodies involved — the European Commission, the Irish Government and the British Government — match the intense effort we have put into this. I do not want to get into a blame game, but someone needs to match our efforts. This money is vital and urgent, and we need to get it released. In my view it is shameful that the money is logjammed at this stage.”
“The €120 million I refer to, Madam Chairwoman, relates particularly to INTERREG funding, but you are right: the Peace money is going to come on stream and the Peace letters of offer will be ready to go out when the panels meet in short order. I do not want to get into blaming anyone for the hold up, but I have said that we have done our bit. InterTradeIreland, which is waiting for over €10 million to support small business in the border region, has done its work, and the letters of offer are ready to go. <BR /> <BR />The health boards on both sides of the border have done their work and are waiting for vital money to fund cross-border health initiatives. The Donegal, Derry and Strabane councils have done their bit on the greenways and are waiting for €15 million of funding to make that happen. We all have stepped up to the plate.”
“What I have said to all 11 councils is, "Press on, move forward, build the type of community you know your ratepayers are entitled to and we will support you." <BR /> <BR />I hope all these issues are resolved in the time ahead, Mr Smith, but, for now, let no one suggest that the councils should pause for a moment in doing the work that they can do in leading economic growth.”
“I thank Mr Smith. I will not be over two minutes with this particular answer. That issue also came up at the meeting of councils last week. I want to see them have more powers and more competencies and to see them be able to step up. I also said to them, "Don't hesitate, don't delay, don't make any excuses". They have enough genius, ability, talent and resources to make a difference in their communities. I understand everyone is often focused on the next day and more powers, and sometimes the fact is that government is not joined-up enough.”
“With your permission, Mr Speaker, if I could continue. <BR /> <BR />The Executive, the Finance Department, the Special EU Programmes Body (SEUPB) and the INTERREG panels have all stepped up to expedite those funding applications. In fact, I think they have done Trojan work to speed up the process to ensure that money is released to the peacemakers, the bridge builders, the entrepreneurs and the job creators on the ground. I respectfully suggest that their efforts need to be matched by the Irish Government, the British Government and the EU Commission. Notwithstanding the grave difficulties surrounding the EU referendum, all three of those institutions should commit to releasing this €120 million as soon as possible.”
“I think most of us thought that we had done marvellous work on expediting the application process. All the bodies had stepped up, including councils and the INTERREG partners, to ensure this money got out the door. At present, we have €120 million of letters of offer for cross-border job, environmental and health projects, and they are logjammed in the system.”
“In relation to Peace funding and, in particular, INTERREG funding ,which I know is of grave, deep interest to Members, the statement from the British Chancellor, Mr Hammond, on 12 August falls short, as you know, of what I would have liked to have seen, particularly in relation to Peace and INTERREG cross-border programmes. The Chancellor made a commitment to underwrite project approvals and letters of offer and contracts made in advance of the autumn statement on 23 November. I believe that this is insufficient because it leaves €1·1 billion in other European funds at risk in the time ahead; funding for contracts that we expect to be signed off post-November. <BR /> <BR />It is important to say that I am also concerned about the €500 million that was to go out before 23 November.”
“Go raibh maith agat as an cheist. As we left the meeting, the councils said, "You are going to be our champion", and I said that I would be champion for the councils that want to borrow, invest and build their cities, towns and villages. So I commend the great work that is being done to rationalise councils, but the people who want to take the next step forward are those who I would really like to partner in government. <BR /> <BR />EU funding came up at the meeting and was raised by some of the representatives from Newry, Mourne and Down — I do not know whether I have that order correct.”
“I am not necessarily against that, but, in the here and now, the Executive control Invest NI's grant allocation, so we could influence that. We have good strong local influence over the transport infrastructure. We control the rates and we should have, within our gift, enough powers, resources and ability to make a difference in our council areas. If people want to come up with other ideas, I am happy for them to pursue those, but the things that I am interested in are what will really make a difference today and tomorrow.”
“Ms Hanna, I see that you bumped Philip McGuigan down the list, but he may come back later. <BR /> <BR />A city deal did come up, but the young gentleman who brought it up, Councillor Tim Attwood, was outside the meeting for the bit that I was at. I know that he is an advocate for a city deal, a business zone, a city zone or even a west Belfast zone in his constituency. I have an open mind in that regard. I told the councils that have no problem with them exploring alternative ways of building up their council area, whether Belfast, Derry or Ballymena, but, in the here and now, we can deliver short-term to medium-term transformative projects, policies and strategies in each council area from our own resources. <BR /> <BR />If we ask the British Government for a city deal, that will bring us down a different path.”
“I see more and more evidence of the amalgamated councils wanting to step up and increase the pace of investment. When I said at that meeting that I would be a champion for councils that wish to step up at the Executive table, I think that I echoed the views of every Member here who would like to be a champion for their local council and step up for them if they will step up as well.”
“I view the meeting as the beginning of a new conversation with local authorities. I was delighted to see so many mayors present and represented, as well as CEOs. I heard their ideas and plans for economic development in their areas and outlined some of the alternative funding sources that could help them realise their ambitions. My Department stands ready to assist our councils in this regard. I will continue to engage with councils on this and other issues and I look forward to attending the next partnership panel meeting led by Minister Givan between Executive Ministers and local government elected members on 12 October. <BR /> <BR />I met mayors from all parties in Lisburn civic centre last Thursday, and I think that this is an issue that crosses party political boundaries.”
“Ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabhail leis an Chomhalta as an cheist. I had a very positive meeting with council mayors and chief executives last Thursday, 22 September. It was perhaps the first time that any Minister had had the chance to meet all the councils; as you know, they have just reorganised. We discussed the range of options available to councils that could facilitate greater investment.”
“"Any piece of land" might be a bit too generous, even for me, but, in this case, it is certainly a reasonable proposition. I know that Mr McGrath will bring that forward. If the Member wishes to join him in that, I am content. There are certainly a number of issues with government buildings where they are not doing what they could to build community in the areas that they are in. In this case, I am certainly happy to investigate whether we can do exactly what you are talking about.”
“I thank the Member for his supplementary. As Carla Lockhart did in relation to a health centre in Banbridge, you are making commonsensical points about joined-up government and how government should help to revive our town centres. You have my pledge that I will do all in my power to bring the council together with my officials to make sure that the arrangement in Rathkeltair House — the pronunciation was 50:50; I got it wrong — is to the benefit of the town.”
“Thank you, Mr McGrath. I thought that you might help us by mentioning the word "Rathkeltair", so that we would find out whether it is pronounced "Rathkeltair" or "Rathkeeltair". <BR /> <BR />I am advised that neither my officials nor the staff in Rathkeltair House — is it "Rathkeeltair"? — are aware of any contact enquiring about the use of the land for the promotion of access between businesses and Downpatrick town centre. However, Mr McGrath is obviously, I presume, working on the issue as a constituency issue with local traders. I am happy to discuss the issue further with Mr McGrath if he wishes to write to me or bring it up directly with me in my office. We are always willing to consider any plan that would help our town centres, which are under considerable pressure.”
“You really should spend more time listening to me, Stephen, and stop watching the news. I think that you will find that concerns on those issues have been exaggerated. <BR /> <BR />Is it a time of turbulence? Yes, it is, Mr Farry. Is it difficult for our public-sector workers to take on more responsibilities? Yes, it is. Despite that, the evidence that I have — I have travelled round many offices and activities that my Department is involved in from NISRA and the LPS to those who work with me directly, our economists and those working on European funding — is that business continuity is there to see. Rest assured, Mr Farry: you should not listen to any warnings in that regard.”
“I thank the Member for his question. I advise him not to listen too much to warnings. Listen to the AERA Minister when she comes in.”
“I cannot, but I am happy to get that figure for the Member. I suspect that, at the top grades, we have about 120 civil servants. I am happy to report to the Member in writing on exactly what wages those people get.”
“Yes, I can. I do not think that I mentioned the figure earlier in response to Mr McCausland, but the global figure for savings in the wage bill is around £150 million. I know that the Opposition are always interested in contributing to the debate on the Budget and where money should be spent, but they should acknowledge for a minute that the reason that there is additional money to spend on front-line services is the prudent way that we have managed the voluntary exit scheme. People leave with good packages, they are rewarded and thanked for their contribution, and we take the money that we save and put it right back out — right back out — to build the shared and prosperous future that we wish to see. In that regard, it is around £150 million saved per year that goes right back into the Budget.”
“Instead of sniping at those who have been ill during the year, we should reinforce our determination to build an excellent public sector and provide our people with the front-line services that they need.”
“I thank the Member for his question. I am always concerned when we get sickness figures, and I studied them in depth at the time. I resisted the temptation that the UUP could not resist to have a dig at the public sector and the Civil Service. In my opinion, our public sector performs heroics every day, whether it is in our museums, our art galleries, our libraries, our hospitals or our schools, and we need to stand behind the Civil Service and applaud and commend its work. <BR /> <BR />Sickness levels are higher than I wish them to be. However, I wonder whether the Ulster Unionist Party would like to give us its sickness tables for the year and compare them with the Civil Service. People get sick. It is a tough job that people do in the public sector.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Civil Service has done its bit; it has lost over 10% of its workforce under the voluntary exit scheme. However, I hope that people in the back-office jobs who want to retire in the years ahead will have the opportunity to do so and that, without affecting the quality or the excellence of the service, some of those back-office jobs can go. In that respect, Mr McCausland, I think that you will acknowledge that the digital revolution that we are in the midst of gives us the opportunity to do jobs more efficiently and, perhaps, not with the same number of staff.”
“The Member concentrates on the NICS — I understand that, as I have responsibility for the Civil Service — but he will know that the voluntary exit scheme extends beyond that. The reason that we can make the books balance, the reason that Mr Givan was recently able to give extra money to libraries, the reason that I was able to pledge more money for life-prolonging drugs, the reason that we are able to put more money into entrepreneurship and building the economy is that we have reduced the size of government. We have made sure that our colleagues in the Civil Service and the public sector were able to exit with good terms and a great package, but, at the same time, if we have only nine Departments, we do not need as many people to provide the services.”
“The wage cost will materially reduce further in 2016-17 as the effect of the NICS voluntary exit scheme, which closed in May 2016, has a full-year impact.”
“I thank the Member for his question. The Northern Ireland Civil Service wage cost for the last four full financial years is as follows: for 2012-13, it was £927 million; for 2013-14, it was £951 million; for 2014-15, it was £943 million, and for 2015-16, it was £901 million.”
“<BR /> <BR />For my part, I agree, and Mr Farry said — I am not sure whether I caught Mr Ford saying it — that it is essential, if we are going to get to the truth, that the commission of investigation has to have a wide ranging all-island brief. I hesitate to say that it has to go off the island as well, because some of the goings on and shenanigans happened in other jurisdictions, but I agree with Mr Farry that the commission of investigation needs to be all-island and we need to make sure that it can do its work north of the border as well.”
“There are many masters when there is a good decision like that. <BR /> <BR />My approach, as the Member knows, is one of inclusion. The Finance Committee has not decided the most appropriate way forward for it. The Executive have many ways to continue to support the many investigations into this matter and I hope that they step up and support all the investigations. I have no hesitation in saying that if parties want to gather together and consider a way forward they should do that. However, Mrs Long, perhaps the way to do it is through the Finance Committee where all parties are represented. The Committee is taking its own counsel as regards its next best steps.”