Máirtín Ó Muilleoir
South Belfast · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“Go raibh maith agat as an cheist sin. I think it must. I followed the Public Accounts Committee under my colleague Mr Swann, and I read the devastating October hearing when Ofgem appeared.”
“While the areas it will investigate will be wide-ranging, it will necessarily include key areas in which there has been huge public interest, including the development and roll-out of the RHI scheme by the then Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment; the signing off of the scheme by the then Department of Finance and Personnel; th…”
“I thank Mr Clarke for that question. I know that Mr Clarke was at the PAC hearing that Robin Swann had the wonderful occasion to chair. I would have paid money to attend that because it was certainly a difficult session for the PAC.”
“In relation to the question asked, I want to speak in particular of the seven months that I have been in the Department of Finance. I have been deeply impressed by the commitment, diligence and alertness of my officials to the RHI scandal. I mentioned previously alerting the Comptroller and Auditor General.”
“Ba mhaith liom buíochas a thabhairt don Chomhalta as an cheist sin. I think that any inquiry will ask what went wrong, where it went wrong, who was accountable and what happened. In that context, I am totally convinced that the decision to involve Ofgem in the RHI scheme was a major mistake. Ofgem has failed.”
“Therefore, I wish to reassure the public by setting out the steps that I think must be taken to ensure absolute openness and transparency. The arrangements I have detailed in this statement are intended to ensure this.”
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“Pope Francis, of course, is one of the pre-eminent opponents of austerity in the world. I assure you that the community and society that we live in is not just an economy; it is a society made of people, each of whom has their own needs and ambitions. We will certainly grow the economy, not as an end in its own right but as a means of providing for all our people, including the most disadvantaged. <BR /> <BR />I do not believe that anyone in the House accepts the claim of Prime Minister Cameron that we are all in this together in our approach to the recovery. In fact, the truth, as expressed by the bishops of the Anglican Church ahead of the general election last year, is that:”
“I am determined that, under this Executive, the vulnerable people in our society will not be abandoned in a latter-day 'Raft of the Medusa'. <BR /> <BR />Pope Francis articulated the same issues when he said:”
“The Westminster Government's austerity programme is self-defeating. I note that the Tories stood locally across 18 constituencies in the last election in May and did not manage to get 10,000 votes across all those constituencies. They have no mandate in the House. Therefore, I believe that our opposition to austerity is a view shared by Members across the House. It is also a view shared by many eminent people whose opinions are well worth listening to. It is interesting that, in recent times, the head of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) — many people might put the blame for where we are with the IMF — Christine Lagarde has argued:”
“In particular, I am proud that we are delivering the most generous welfare protection in these islands, with over £500 million specifically to ensure that the most vulnerable people in our society will be protected from the worst excesses of the Tory Government's austerity agenda. We are blocking the bedroom tax, preventing the imposition of water charges and keeping student fees affordable.”
“The expenditure set out in these Supply Estimates will see investment in high-quality public services and, most importantly, a commitment to oppose the austerity programme being driven by the Westminster Government. I aim to work with all our local communities to create a prosperous, shared society and help to grow a stronger economy with opportunity for all. <BR /> <BR />These Estimates are the means by which the Executive’s Budget, which was agreed in January this year, will be brought into effect. I am on record as saying that I believe that that Budget will serve our people well.”
“Le linn na díospóireachta inniu faoin rún tábhachtach seo, tá mé ag súil go gcluinfimid guthanna mórán daoine as achan taobh, agus iad ag úsáid na díospóireachta seo chun ceisteanna tábhachtacha ábhartha a thabhairt chun solais. <BR /> <BR />During today's debate on this important resolution, I expect that we will hear many voices using the debate to raise important and relevant issues, and I look forward to that. Ón tús, is mian liom an uaillmhian atá agam a thabhairt le fios go soiléir go ndéanfaidh an Coiste Feidhmiúcháin seo beart de réir a bhriathair i rith mhandáid nua an Tionóil seo. <BR /> <BR />From the outset, I wish to make clear my ambition for this Executive to deliver over the new mandate.”
“Those requirements have their origins in the Executive’s Budget for 2016-17, which was approved by the Assembly on 19 January 2016, as well as the demand-led annually managed expenditure (AME). On behalf of the Executive, I request and recommend the levels of Supply set out in this resolution under section 63 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998. <BR />Accelerated passage is required for the legislation, and there is provision for this specific instance in Standing Orders. I understand that the Committee has agreed to grant accelerated passage. I thank the Chair, Emma Little Pengelly, and members from all sides for that permission, and I place on record my appreciation of their early start to this mandate in agreeing this important step in the process.”
“The Main Estimates and Statement of Excesses were laid in the Assembly on Wednesday 1 June 2016. <BR /> <BR />The resolution before the Assembly relates to the supply of cash and resources for the remainder of the current year — 2016-17 — as detailed in the Main Estimates. A Vote on Account was passed by the Assembly in February, which provided initial allocations for 2016-17 to ensure the continuation of services until the Main Estimates could be presented to the Assembly for approval. This resolution, and the Budget Bill that I will introduce later today, request the balance to complete the total cash and resource requirements of Departments and other public bodies for 2016-17. The balance to complete amounts to almost £8 billion of cash and over £8·6 billion of resources.”
“Nuair a shocraigh muid na rúin seo, ní raibh a fhios againn go mbeadh an áit líonta le brón as siocair an tsléachta in Orlando agus bás Darren Rodgers. Ach cuirfidh mé mo ghuth le guthanna eile a ardaíodh. When we organised today's business, we did not know that it would be a day filled with sadness because of the slaughter in Orlando and the death of Darren Rodgers. I add my voice to those voices that were heard earlier in regard to those deaths. <BR /> <BR />As you have set out, a Príomh LeasCheann Comhairle, the debate covers the Supply resolution and Excess Votes in respect of the Department of Finance and the Northern Ireland Assembly Commission. The resolution seeks the Assembly’s approval of the 2016-17 spending plans of Departments and other public bodies, as set out in the Main Estimates.”
“Deimhním, a Cheann Comhairle, go bhfuil mé toilteanach oifig an Aire Airgeadais a ghlacadh, agus dearbhaím téarmaí an ghealltanais oifige a leagtar amach in sceideal 4 de Acht Thuaisceart Éireann 1998. I confirm that I am willing to take up the office of Minister of Finance and I affirm the terms of the Pledge of Office as set out in schedule 4 to the Northern Ireland Act 1998.”
“I almost regret standing, a Cheann Comhairle, but I could not stop myself. Would you say that the decision of Concentrix to build new premises on the Lagan at Maysfield is a failure? Would you say that Allstate's decision to build new premises on the Lagan is a failure? Would you say that the innovation lab of Google and PWC's headquarters on the Lagan are a failure? Has there been any ray of light over the last few months? Of course, all those projects have been supported by the Executive.”
“I hope that we will pick up the pieces, move forward confidently, continue our support for renewables and, as we enter consultation with the small-scale providers, come up with a scheme that satisfies them and their customers.”
“There is no avoiding the fact that, over the last nine months, the discussion on the issue has been really disappointing, in that the Chair was not treated with courtesy and respect and was not given the information that he asked for over many months. While we will disagree on the vote later, we have a clear approach, and I hope that that continues. <BR /> <BR />Finally, I thank the Minister. Not all of the cards fell his way in recent months. Not only were there terrible job losses across the North but the goalposts were moved by the Department of Energy and Climate Change in London, and we are paying the price for that.”
“It would be useful if the Minister used his good offices to talk to NIE to see whether, even in the midst of a consultation, there is a way in which we could help some of the key projects that are stuck in the logjam but could have a real impact on jobs and investment. I do not know whether the Minister has had a chance to do that today, but I hope that he will come back on that. <BR /> <BR />I finish by thanking the Committee, its staff and the Clerks for all the help that they have given us. The Chair has shown exemplary leadership. Today, there was a little incident at home, but I believe that Mrs McGlone is as tough as her son and that everything is well there.”
“The big parties — in fact, all parties — are, I think, united in their belief that there needs to be continued support. Let us approach the consultation seriously and look at the options ahead, including, since it is an all-island electricity market, the all-island refit. From my conversations with colleagues, everyone is up for ensuring that we continue to hit the ambitious renewables targets that we have set ourselves. <BR /> <BR />Secondly, I mentioned to the Minister today that the NIE and SONI moratorium had held up a lot of connections to the grid. Some are intimately connected to job creation and investment, including the Dale Farm solar energy plant in Cookstown.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leatsa, a Cheann Comhairle, as an dóigh ar chaith tú le cúrsaí anseo. Ba mhaith liom buíochas a thabhairt duit agus gach beannacht a ghuidhe duit as an dóigh chothrom a raibh tú ag déileáil le gach duine. <BR /> <BR />I wish you well, Mr Speaker, as you move on. Some of us may not be back on 12 May, but I believe that you will be here to chair the first meeting of the new mandate. I thank you for your fairness and the courtesies that you have shown. You had a bit of a reputation, Mr Speaker, for being tough on the Sinn Féin Benches. I have survived, at least until tonight, so I will be on my best behaviour. <BR /> <BR />I have two quick points. First, you can be sure, Mr Agnew, that support for renewables will continue in the new mandate, whether I am here or not.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. With the indulgence of the Deputy Speaker on your last Question Time, Minister, I congratulate you on your short but successful tenure. We got some things over the line in south Belfast. <BR /> <BR />Given the two-hour traffic jam that is the story of south Belfast every morning, is the solution not to take the Belfast rapid transit (BRT), which will be a great success in east and west, and — whoever is Minister — expand it into the south of the city, perhaps right from the city centre to Carryduff?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire. It is appropriate to wish the Minister well on his last Question Time. Your legacy will depend on how you answer the next supplementary. Is it the case, based on your answer, Minister, that the ancien régime, which you can translate as "old guard", at Maghaberry, with its resistance to change, is on the back foot or is a thing of the past?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Has the use of FTC that we have seen in universities been a good use of that money? Is that something that we can focus on in the time ahead? I am thinking in particular of Ulster University and Queen's University, with its new law centre and students' centre.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Mo bhuíochas fosta leis an Aire. Guím gach rath ort, a Aire, is tú ag éirí as do phost. I wish the Minister well as he finishes his last Question Time as Minister of the Environment. <BR /> <BR />Minister, you and I have discussed Belfast City Airport and the inquiry. Are you disappointed that we did not get a resolution in this mandate? Will you lend your support in the new mandate, whatever your position is — hopefully you will be back — into getting a resolution to this thorny issue?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Mo bhuíochas fosta leis an Aire. Níor luaigh an tAire Líofa, ach tá súil agam go ndéanfaidh sí sin. Ar mhaith leat, a Aire, tréaslú le gach duine a rabh baint acu le láidriú na Gaeilge le linn do thréimhse? Tá ráfla láidir ann go mbeidh tú ag glacadh páirte i Rith 2016 a thagann arais i mbliana. <BR /> <BR />The Minister did not mention Líofa, which she is certainly entitled to do because it has been one of the great successes of her tenure. Will she join me in congratulating the Irish groups that have strengthened the Irish language during her tenure? Rith 2016, the biennial run, comes back to Belfast this year. Minister, there is a strong rumour that you will take part; maybe you will let us know.”
“Ba mhaith liom ceist a chur ar an Aire. Amárach, tosaíonn mí na Gaeilge. Le linn do thréimhse chuir tú béim mhór ar chúrsaí Gaeilge agus ar chur chun cinn na Gaeilge. Ar mhaith leat, is tú ag breathnú siar, labhairt ar chuid de na ceachtanna a d’fhoghluim muid?”
“Perhaps you could tell us about the importance of that visit and your trip to the west coast.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Mo bhuíochas fosta leis an LeasChéad-Aire. <BR /> <BR />My thanks to the deputy First Minister for his answers. You mentioned the importance of the US, and you head to the US shortly. I was in New York at the weekend, and you will be happy to know that our friends in business and Irish-American politics are looking forward to your upcoming visit. I am too diplomatic to say that they are more interested in the fact that the First Minister will make her first visit as First Minister.”
“It is important that some of the other engineering companies take up some of the slack from Bombardier, because those are highly prized and valued apprentice schemes.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his full statement. <BR /> <BR />First of all, we should emphasise and echo your statement of standing with the workers and management of Bombardier in this city today. All of us from all parties will, despite our differences, do our best in the days ahead to boost the fortunes of Bombardier. In that respect, I will travel to New York later this week to meet the New York City Comptroller, who owns millions of dollars of stock. <BR /> <BR />Minister, you have said that, as the manufacturing sector grows, you might try to pivot or move some of the workers who are being made redundant into some of those jobs. Can I ask you also to look at the apprentice schemes? I am particularly concerned about the plant at Newtownabbey and the plants at Dunmurry.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Minister, it is midterm break, so there is no homework this week. That is the good news. <BR /> <BR />You mentioned the Ulster University Economic Policy Centre. Neil Gibson was with the Enterprise Committee this morning, and he is very strong on the concept that derelict land should be taxed and rated on the basis that it will spur economic regeneration. He used the example of Crossgar, where I do not go often enough, where there is an empty site in the centre of town that inhibits economic development in other shops. Are you minded at this stage to give any direction to the incoming Executive about derelict sites on our main streets and in our city centres?”
“People were in over their head and did not let us know in time. I do not like criticising officials, but where the public purse is involved, we have to insist that lessons are learned and that the Minister comes back in future to assure us that this will not happen again.”
“Finally, and I know that he will come back when we finish, the fact that the Minister has had to come today shows the seriousness of the situation, and I really hope that lessons have been learned and will be learned through the review that he mentioned. Without being cruel, I hope that those responsible for monitoring this scheme are not responsible for monitoring any other renewables schemes. I hope that, when we come forward with alternatives to the renewable heat incentive scheme in the time ahead, we can look back at this mess — this dog's dinner — having ensured that it will not happen again and that those responsible have been brought to account. <BR /> <BR />There has been talk about something having been skewed in the applications, but, for me, the blame lies, and I hate saying this — I hate saying this — in the Department.”
“However, when it comes down to that Hobson's choice of either continuing to spend money just in this sector on a scheme that has been mismanaged and has got out of control or cap it and rein it in, then we have to vote for its suspension.”
“All I can say to those in the sector who have been in touch with me over recent days is that we have fought for the compromise of two weeks but the sums are huge. We are told that the difference to the Budget is £95 million over five years, or almost £20 million a year extra, because the scheme has grown so much bigger than was ever intended. That represents such a blow to the Executive and to our Budget, especially the economic development budget, that we have to make that Hobson's choice of finishing the scheme at the end of February or suspending it in order to look at it again, so that we have the money to stimulate the economy in the time ahead. The renewables sector has been a boon to the entire economy, and we hope that it will be improved and do well.”
“The Committee and the Minister should have been told much earlier that we had a funding crisis and that, if we did not act immediately, it would just get worse. I hope that we can learn from this and, if the scheme is suspended today, come back in a new mandate for a fresh look at not only the renewable heat incentive but ROCs and the problems with the renewable obligations.”
“The renewable heat initiative was a scheme that got totally out of control. It seems to me that there was no one at the wheel. There was no one watching or giving advice in a timely fashion.”
“Gavin McGuire of the Federation of Master Builders was on to me as well, as was a private nursing home in north Belfast that had planned to install renewable heating. We are not blind to the pain that is out there or to the real consequences of this. <BR /> <BR />When I spoke to the Minister last Tuesday, after we had gone through a full two-hour meeting about this debacle in the Enterprise Committee, I implored him not to close the scheme today. In fact, he has not done that, and there has been a compromise. We are getting until the end of the month. While that is not satisfactory for everyone, it represents a compromise. <BR /> <BR />Three points sum it up for those of us in Sinn Féin. One is that, without a doubt, this is a dog's dinner. The situation should never have been allowed to get to this point.”
“I implore the Minister to sort it out, because it infects the entire relationship between the Committee and the Department. That relationship should be vigorous, vibrant, constructive and positive, even though, of course, we have a duty to scrutinise what the Minister does. <BR /> <BR />Over recent days, I, too, have been lobbied by all sorts of people, including the social enterprise sector. Aisling Brady of the Donaghmore District Community Association has been lobbying, because that community association decided that going into renewables was a good idea. As government money retracts, they thought that perhaps they could have other enterprises, and they will be hit by this.”
“It is that there is a pattern of the Committee not being informed and not being properly brought up to date with what is happening in the Department. This is not the only issue on which it happens, but it is the most egregious example of us being kept in the dark. For me, it is not good enough. At meeting after meeting over the past six or seven months, the Chair has had to tell us that he has not received information in a timely fashion or has not received information at all. For me, that shows a disrespect to the Committee that we really need to get beyond. I am not happy with that, and, even though I may go into a different Division Lobby from the Chair later, when the debate finishes, that disrespect towards the Chair needs sorted out.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Éirím go tromchroíoch, nó níl romhainn inniu ach rogha an dá dhíogha, mar a thuigfeas an Cathaoirleach. <BR /> <BR />I rise with a heavy heart, because it really is, as they say in Irish, rogha an dá dhíogha — the lesser of two evils or Hobson's choice. Whatever decision we take today will ensure that some people lose out. Small companies have brought in orders hoping to install renewable heating; some people are waiting to bring it into their business. However, if we do not take a decision today, the hole in the budget gets bigger, and the money available to us in the future from the block grant to build the economy is less. <BR /> <BR />I want to make one point that, I think, has come out in all the contributions of members of the Enterprise, Trade and Investment Committee.”
“I think, Minister, you will agree that there are some parts of Belfast, including the Malone conservation area, where dereliction is really spoiling the entire environment. I came out of St Bride's Church on Saturday and saw beautiful listed homes derelict at Sans Souci Park and Wellington Park. As we come to the end of the mandate, Minister, will you meet some of the residents of that area to discuss your ideas and your commitment and to perhaps put together their ideas and those of other Departments to see what could be done in the time ahead about that dreadful dereliction?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Mo bhuíochas fosta leis an Aire as na geallúintí sin, go háirid as an athbhreithniú atá beartaithe aige. I thank the Minister, especially for the review that is promised and for underlining his commitment.”
“In eight hours of Budget debate, we have had only one proposal from our colleagues in the SDLP on what they would do differently: they would raid the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister of £800,000. They are telling us tonight that they would not take that from the Victims and Survivors Service. As Minister of Finance, can you tell us how many jobs would go if we were to take £800,000 out of the OFMDFM budget and whether the unions have been consulted on that? It seems that there are to be no redundancy payments for this as there are no costs attached. Is that unprecedented, and have you any idea where this idea came from? Unless I missed something, it just does not add up. Are there any other great ideas about what they would do differently?”
“I think that a short intervention would be in order, if I were allowed.”
“Will the Member take a short intervention?”
“I do not know whether that will be in the prosperity plan, when we see it, but, to me, raiding £800,000 from OFMDFM and making 20 people redundant is kindergarten economics.”
“If it is to come from savings, that is interesting because, then, the SDLP's position is that the only thing that should be different in the Budget is that there should be more efficiencies. I think that everybody would sign up for that. If there is to be a bold — we heard that word used earlier — ambition behind the prosperity plan, which we are still waiting for, let us know what it is, because we would like to see an alternative. There is no monopoly on budgets, so tell us where you would remove the money from. Would it be from the Culture Department, from DOE, from DRD or from the economy? Where will you take money from to give you that additional spending power, or is there no additional spend intended?”
“The only suggestion so far is that you will take £800,000 from OFMDFM, perhaps closing down the Victims and Survivors Service — that is £800,000 — or making 20 people redundant. You want to give that to the women's centre childcare unit, which, in fact, is being sorted out. However, you make a fair point: you have suggested that, out of a huge budget, you will take £800,000 from one Department and put it into another. <BR /> <BR />After all of the talking tonight, are you saying that you have laboured long and hard over this but will not tell us how you would move money between Departments? Do you want to spend more on health? You seemed to be saying that in your earlier suggestions. If it is more than £4·8 billion, where is it coming from?”
“Thank you. I was waiting with bated breath to hear about the prosperity plan. I am happy to have a health debate. I do not know whether the Member is proud of the fact that we have set aside £4·8 billion for health, but I am. If he thinks that anyone on this side of the Chamber or the other side of the Chamber is not going to demand and insist on delivery, he has not been listening to what we have been saying today when we challenged the Economy Minister on some of the problems within DETI. We will insist on proper delivery and excellence in every Department. <BR /> <BR />However, I am still waiting to hear what the SDLP would do.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. As we work out how to spend this £4·8 billion, do you agree that it would be beneficial to the community if the Minister, in conjunction with the Minister of Education, found a way to tackle the long waiting lists for autism assessments? I know that there is a gathering this week in Stormont — maybe it was today — on that issue. Many of my constituents are in limbo: they are unable to get a child assessed and are therefore unable to source the correct educational route for the child.”
“So, from my point of view, does this Budget deliver everything and is it a wish list for everyone? No, it is not. Is it a good day's work? It is a very good day's work. When I listen to Eileen Evason and others who are at the coalface of delivering change and a fair deal for those who are on the dole, those who are seeking work and working families, I think it is a good day's work. I support the Budget, and I am proud to support it. I think that we have done well, and we will do better in the time ahead, especially as we unite to build the economy.”
“The reasons why administration costs have increased have been spelt out and are on the record. If we allow for the additional work and contingencies that OFMDFM has taken on — for example, responsibility for advertising and other things from Departments — like every Department, OFMDFM has reduced its administration budget between 2012 and 2015-16.”
“Minister Morrow spoke positively last week, and I hope that he will find the £800,000 this week that we need for those hard-pressed women's centres and thus resolve the issue. But who will go into the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister in the morning and tell them that they are losing £800,000 from their budget? Who will hand out the 20 P45s to the 20 workers? Who will go to the Victims and Survivors Service and say that we are going to take away its entire budget of £800,000? It is my belief that they have not looked at the figures. They say that OFMDFM administration costs are going up at 23%, but they have not looked at the complexities or the programmes that it has taken on board since 2012-13 and the logical reasons for that.”