Máirtín Ó Muilleoir
South Belfast · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“Go raibh maith agat as an cheist sin. I think it must. I followed the Public Accounts Committee under my colleague Mr Swann, and I read the devastating October hearing when Ofgem appeared.”
“While the areas it will investigate will be wide-ranging, it will necessarily include key areas in which there has been huge public interest, including the development and roll-out of the RHI scheme by the then Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment; the signing off of the scheme by the then Department of Finance and Personnel; th…”
“I thank Mr Clarke for that question. I know that Mr Clarke was at the PAC hearing that Robin Swann had the wonderful occasion to chair. I would have paid money to attend that because it was certainly a difficult session for the PAC.”
“In relation to the question asked, I want to speak in particular of the seven months that I have been in the Department of Finance. I have been deeply impressed by the commitment, diligence and alertness of my officials to the RHI scandal. I mentioned previously alerting the Comptroller and Auditor General.”
“Ba mhaith liom buíochas a thabhairt don Chomhalta as an cheist sin. I think that any inquiry will ask what went wrong, where it went wrong, who was accountable and what happened. In that context, I am totally convinced that the decision to involve Ofgem in the RHI scheme was a major mistake. Ofgem has failed.”
“Therefore, I wish to reassure the public by setting out the steps that I think must be taken to ensure absolute openness and transparency. The arrangements I have detailed in this statement are intended to ensure this.”
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“I thank Mrs Long for her question. I thought that that was Stephen Farry's idea yesterday.”
“<BR /> <BR />I hope that the commission of investigation that is being suggested and proposed by the Taoiseach comes about and that it has an all-island brief. In the time ahead, there will be ample opportunity to test the resolve of the NCA on this issue. Like the Executive, the Minister of Finance, Assembly Members and the Finance Committee, the NCA will be will be tested on its delivery, and the officers I met understand this. In this test, they are determined to succeed.”
“Go raibh maith agat as an cheist sin. I thank the Member for his question. I met the NCA in Lisburn last Thursday. Finance Committee members will know, as they have been briefed repeatedly, that the NCA remains on course. All of us share the frustration of how slow and meticulous these investigations are, which is of necessity. That said, the NCA has delivered in the course of the inquiry, as it pledged to us, and has reported back to the Finance Committee and to me. While the nature of our discussions have to remain confidential, I am pleased that there has been no let up in the NCA's intent to not only find out what happened in terms of the Project Eagle sale but to bring those involved to book.”
“The Member might have been at a different debate, but Sinn Féin in this House — if I may speak for Sinn Féin for a moment, Mr Speaker — and I, as Minister of Finance, will do everything in our power to get the people the result they deserve, which is to have the truth and have the wrongdoers brought to book.”
“The Member may have been at a different debate yesterday but I would say this to him: the debate I was at yesterday, and how I voted, was to support an all-island commission of investigation into the NAMA/Cerberus deal in the sale of Project Eagle. The Member is new to the House, but I have spent the last 24 months probing this issue and it is my contention and resolve to get to the heart of the corruption regarding the Project Eagle deal. I remain absolutely determined and will not be deflected from my desire and resolve to deliver what the people want, which is the truth about the sale of Project Eagle.”
“<BR /> <BR />The people who I meet are confident that the FBI and the SEC have the resources to get to the truth of what happened. I have said this before, and I will say it again, Mrs Overend: it is my opinion that getting to the truth will not be easy, and I really think that we need an all-island investigation. However, I have a lot of faith in the agencies — starting at the level of the FBI and the SEC, and then, of course, the NCA and the gardaí — bringing to book and to justice those who are guilty of what I believe was wrongdoing,”
“They believe, as do most of us in the House, that there was something rotten in how the deal was fixed, formed and brought over the line, as well as in how £7 million ended up in the Isle of Man. Businesspeople who I meet are heartened by the fact that people are revolted by that and determined to get at the truth. <BR /> <BR />There is an added layer that will, I think, give the Member some heart and confidence in how we are viewed abroad. Those in high positions in corporate boardrooms in North America also welcome the fact that, on the American side, the purchase of Project Eagle by Cerberus is the subject of intense investigation by the FBI and the SEC. They are two almost parallel but separate lines of investigation.”
“Go raibh maith agat. I thank the Member for her supplementary. It is, perhaps, worth putting on record what happened yesterday. The House united, through a majority vote, to ask for a full investigation into the NAMA/Cerberus deal and to say that it would support all investigations. <BR /> <BR />The Member will be aware that I spoke yesterday about meeting the National Crime Agency (NCA), but the NCA is not the only law enforcement agency investigating. An Garda Síochána and, in the States, the FBI and the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) are also investigating. <BR /> <BR />As I travel, it is my opinion that businesspeople, particularly in North America, look on this deal in two ways.”
“Ba mhaith liom ceist 1 agus 7 a thabhairt le chéile. With your permission, Mr Speaker, I will answer questions 1 and 7 together. <BR /> <BR />I have written to the Taoiseach and the Finance Minister in the South of Ireland, assuring them of my Department's full cooperation with any investigation by the Irish Government into Project Eagle and the National Asset Management Agency (NAMA)/Cerberus deal. I have not had any specific contact with the Public Accounts Committee — it has not been in touch with me — but I will, of course, offer any support that the PAC needs in the conduct of its inquiry, inquiries or investigations. The Member can rest assured that all efforts and investigations to reveal the truth of what happened with Project Eagle, and what happened subsequent to that in relation to NAMA and Cerberus, will have my total backing.”
“I am very happy. Leslie Cree could have advised you on this one. He did a great job on the Committee as well. This question was asked many times of the Department. The Department's answer — you will see it in Hansard — is that it has no record of any due diligence being carried out in relation to any of these nominations.”
“<BR /> <BR />My colleague Mr Allister finished off by railing against political influence and the hint or smell of political influence over this deal. I can assure him that I have no fear about all the investigations. I suspect that the investigations by the Assembly may not be as thorough as we would want because we do not have the powers. I think that we would all agree with him on that. I hope that he supports the all-island approach to the matter, as we do. <BR /> <BR />A LeasCheann Comhairle, an bhfuil mo chuid ama istigh? Ba mhaith liom buíochas a thabhairt do gach duine arís as a gcuid pointí.”
“If he does meet the NCA, the FBI or the gardaí, he will be sure that there will not be any veto by anyone over the criminal investigations. That is why Sinn Féin has supported a commission of investigation from the Irish Government and why we are arguing that it has to be cross-border. <BR /> <BR />Steven Agnew referred to the criminal and the political and pointed out the dichotomy. He insisted that we can do more to reveal political shenanigans in relation to this deal. Mr Agnew, we all agree with doing that in the pursuit of truth. It is about finding the correct mechanism to do it. I am sure that the Green Party would support the idea of the commission of investigation in Dublin being truly all-Ireland.”
“Mr Maskey said that the Sinn Féin amendment is superior because it is not as narrow as the motion or the amendment from the SDLP. He talked, as Mr Carroll did, about the disgraceful burden on ordinary people. <BR /> <BR />Mr Chambers referred to public confidence. What we are doing today, Mr Chambers, in part will send out a message to our supporters from all parties that we want to, as you say, lance this poisonous boil. <BR /> <BR />Mr Mullan rightly pointed out that we are talking about the greatest financial scandal in a generation and the biggest property deal in the history of this state. For those reasons, it is absolutely essential that, as he says, we get to the truth. He suggested that the Executive should not be allowed a veto on the investigation. Perhaps he is on the Finance Committee and has met the NCA; I do not know.”
“Mr Farry said that, in Dublin, the Taoiseach reached out to other parties and asked for a united front and a coming together in relation to the investigation. That decision by the Taoiseach came late in the day, but the point is well made, and I hope that there is some common ground here. While I have no doubt that there may be some party politicking going on — I would never do that — there is some common ground in that we all want to get to the truth of this situation.”
“I know that there has been some suggestion here that political interference — "political influence", I think was the term used — might stop the NCA in its tracks; I do not believe that that is the case. I believe that the NCA is pursuing this in a dogged, diligent and meticulous manner. The NCA is resolved to try to bring a case against those who were responsible for the fraud that, I believe, was at the heart of the deal. Of course, the evidence of that is the £7 million in the Isle of Man. <BR /> <BR />It is worth putting it on record that Stephen Farry defended Judith Cochrane's record on the Committee. While she and I did not agree on every decision that was made, she made a really positive contribution to the Finance Committee and to the investigation.”
“When I raised the question over many years, the Labour Party, when in government, supported Mr Noonan in not having an investigation of NAMA. Worse than that — it was an insult to the Committee — NAMA refused repeatedly, as mentioned by others, to appear in front of us. Of course, the allegations that were made at the Finance Committee by politicians from all sides have been proven to have merit, and NAMA now has to answer them. <BR /> <BR />Ms Pengelly, the Chair of the Committee, has asked that we stand aside, I think she said, and allow the NCA to investigate the matter. I think that we are all agreed that the NCA will do its job and will have the full support of me as Minister of Finance and, I think, of every Member of the Assembly. I should add that I met the NCA in Lisburn last Thursday.”
“<BR /> <BR />John O'Dowd said that the place for putting those responsible for wrongdoing was the courts. We would agree with that, but, at the same time, none of us will hold back any arm of the Assembly or Executive if they wish to engage in further investigation. The point is made by all sides that, if justice is to be done — truth is one thing, and I hope that we get to that; we will try to do so — it will most likely be done by the agencies of the state, the NCA, an Garda Síochána, and the FBI or the SEC in the States. <BR /> <BR />Claire Hanna spoke, and I welcome the fact that the SDLP's sister party in the South of Ireland, the Labour Party, has now agreed to support a commission of investigation into the NAMA/Cerberus deal and Project Eagle.”
“Mr Beggs, I think that some of the Members would like me to refer to their comments, so let us do a little bit of that. <BR /> <BR />Philip Smith opened. I do not think that anyone would disagree with him that there is a need to build confidence in these institutions; in fact, I think that accountancy practitioners, solicitors and those in high business in this country would agree with you that this affair — the NAMA/Cerberus scandal — has been damaging to all sectors of our community. Those of us who are involved in public life have been trying to do that. From my communications and dialogue with business in particular, I am confident that I enjoy the support of the business community. They know that we are determined to get to what some people call the truth or core of the NAMA/Cerberus deal.”
“Absolutely. Here is the context, a LeasCheann Comhairle. The bankers and speculators who were responsible for wrecking the country and were at the heart of the NAMA deal had their debt forgiven and are now back living high on the hog. This lady and people like her right across the country are suffering and having their lives destroyed by the same banking practices, but no one has managed to make them whole. Someone mentioned the £7 million in the Isle of Man at the heart of this: would it not be wonderful if we could do something with that to help ordinary people?”
“She then speaks about her personal health difficulties:”
“That lady had no one to call. She was not connected to the golden circle to have her debt forgiven. She continued:”
“What actually happened to those ordinary families across this jurisdiction and across the country? This lady writes:”
“For the record, I will oppose the right of that individual to inflict that development on the Market. My colleagues in South Belfast who have supported that development should, perhaps, when they talk about who was involved in NAMA and what happened, think about whether they are the doing the right thing in supporting the golden circle rather than the people of the Market. <BR /> <BR />Let us talk about the other side of that coin. One of my constituents wrote to me about being caught in negative equity. We know that in one case the banks lent recklessly to speculators, but they did not suffer; they were made whole again. At the same time, banks encouraged ordinary working families to take out loans and more money, telling them, "It'll be OK. You can pay it back".”
“The debt disappeared, and the individual was made whole in terms of his debt. He then got a bonus payment by receiving all the land and property of John Miskelly. While ordinary people have gone through hardship, damage, lengthening unemployment queues and emigration, what has happened? He is back this week, in the Market area of south Belfast, with an office development — a monstrous office development — in a working-class street. I do not think that there is a precedent anywhere in Europe for a development like that going right in the middle of somewhere like the Market estate. The person responsible is living the life that he lived before the crash. <BR /> <BR />We see that tale of one city, where the golden circle has done well and is doing well.”
“I will illustrate that with a tale of two cities. One of the developers — one of the speculators — who alone racked up around €0·5 billion in debt and owned property across this jurisdiction and further afield, received a loan from the Anglo Irish Bank that was guaranteed against his shares in the bank, so that, when the loan went bad, he lost nothing, which was another example of the golden circle at work. Whilst living in exile — as a tax exile — he received a call from a gentleman who, we know from 'Spotlight' and other sources, was at the heart of the controversy and was told to come back to Belfast. He was told, "We will sort out your debt", and he came back. We know that Our Lord healed the lame, but the miraculous work done with that debt was truly breathtaking.”
“We know today that we were told at the time of the property crash by the bankers, by Mr Noonan and the Irish Government and by others in positions of power that we would all be in this together and that, if there were hair shirts to be worn, they would be worn by everyone. However, in the years since, the reality has been that the suffering and hardship has been the monopoly of working-class people and middle-class people. In fact, those who wreaked havoc on this country through their speculative deals and their reckless behaviour, whether bankers or large property developers, have in fact done well.”
“Is deas bheith anseo leat inniu, agus ba mhaith liom buíochas a thabhairt do gach Comhalta a ghlac páirt sa díospóireacht inniu. I thank all the Members who contributed to the debate, and I have no doubt that this discussion will run in the House and outside it, despite the fears of the previous Member to speak, who spoke about discussion or debate being closed down. <BR /> <BR />In essence, as was touched on by many Members, this is a discussion around who benefited from the NAMA/Cerberus deal and also around who benefited from the recession that blighted this island and who suffered. It is really a tale of hair shirts and silk shirts.”
“It is gathering it without political interference, without "Remain" or "Leave" having any bias towards it. These matters will take some time to resolve, and Lord Morrow and I would both like to see a conclusion to this which is in the interest of all our people. I am a "Remainer". I will not call him a Brexiteer, but he certainly supports "Leave". The facts will become clear as time moves on. I think that he will agree that we need to get facts that are independent of political interference. Let us collect them in the middle, let the Executive take cognisance, and let us all take decisions based on those facts.”
“I admire your confidence; confidence has been used a lot here. The Buddhists have a great saying about living in the moment, so I always try and lead from the here and now and live in the moment. What I find amazing is that, regardless of Lord Morrow's certainty on this particular issue, the Tories in London cannot agree among themselves. Mr Davis said there was going to be a hard exit, a hard border; Mrs May, the Prime Minister, had to correct him. Liam Fox is busy insulting "fat and lazy" businesspeople, instead of preparing for the exit that you believe is coming. <BR /> <BR />I prefer to say, "Let's keep the options open", but, at the same time, we have set up in the Executive an inter-departmental group that is gathering information.”
“If we had stimulus here of our own making or as a consequence of a Barnett consequential and a decision by Mr Hammond, those are the sort of projects — much more than just a bridge over the Lagan — that we could bring forward swiftly.”
“The South West College in Enniskillen was one of the most impressive visits that I have made since my appointment as Minister, and it is effectively ready to go. I think that would be a great project. Belfast City Council has a number of cultural projects close to the Ulster University that I would like to see happen, and there are some smaller game-changing projects, including an Cultúrlann in West Belfast that I would like to see happen as well. <BR /> <BR />In your own constituency, there is a little cycle and pedestrian bridge over the Lagan. I do not want to encourage you in baiting — never mind beating — the Ulster Unionists, but as you know, a previous Minister announced that cycle and pedestrian bridge, got full planning permission and then did not build it.”
“As I know from my discussions with the business community — I have met maybe 15 or 16 different business organisations, chambers of commerce and so on — a surprising number of infrastructure projects are ready to go. They are not, perhaps, entirely over the line, with full planning permission, but when I meet with my ministerial colleagues, I find that there are projects sitting ready in each Department that they have had to hold back. <BR /> <BR />We have started a conversation in the Executive about creating our own stimulus locally, so whether it is through a stimulus of our own making or as a result of Mr Hammond's actions and the Barnett consequential, there is a series of projects that I would like to see realised.”
“First, if there is going to be a fiscal reset in the autumn statement and a new approach to austerity, I hope that there will be additional investment in infrastructure. We will not reach the cloud cuckoo land of trebling infrastructure spend. I do not know which particular portal it was going to be transported to Earth from, but we are never going to have the money to treble infrastructure spend, as the Ulster Unionists seem to want. But, there could be a stimulus from Mr Hammond in the Autumn. <BR /> <BR />Secondly, he could take his foot off the austerity pedal. He could say, "We are not going to oblige you to have a 4·1% real-terms reduction between now and 2020". Regrettably, he has not brought me into his confidence, but we will be keeping the Treasury under pressure on those issues.”
“I thank the Member for her question. For the Treasury to have had that level of engagement with me would mean that they have been speaking to me more than they have been speaking to any of the other devolved Administrations, more than they are speaking to the Opposition and more than they are speaking to one another. Every time I turn on the TV, Mrs May, Mr Davis and Mr Fox are arguing with one another, not to mention Mr Boris Johnson. <BR /> <BR />You can take it that it is my contention that the British Government can do two things to help.”
“If I were to say that I am going to speak to the Health Minister today, that might indicate that I have not spoken to her yet, so I want to be careful about that. I will make sure that, today, we talk to the Health Minister. The ball will be in her court — you can be sure she will bat it back — but I agree that it needs to be resolved and I will try to get it resolved.”
“For a minute, I thought that the Member was going to raise the vexed issue of rates, which we are always troubled and concerned about. I thank the Member for being present at a meeting with retailers from Banbridge in Gordons Chemists just outside the town some weeks back and for a run through of all the issues. The issue you highlight is that a government asset that is now redundant is not being used to provide some parking for the town centre. I have given a commitment to speak to the Health Minister, in whose estate that particular property sits. I will come back to you as soon as possible. It will take joined-up government — and you know how challenging that is for us — but I would like to think that we could resolve the issue regarding a car park that will help retailers in the centre of Banbridge.”
“I am happy to keep the Member abreast of developments. Mr Brokenshire has not responded yet; he has only received that particular letter from us. It may require much persuasion or pressure. The Member's party has more sitting Members in another House than our party has, and they may have a role to play in this as well by putting pressure on the Treasury and Westminster.”
“I am sympathetic to the plight of the individuals involved but I do not have the money in my budget and I cannot think of who I would take it from to serve this particular cohort. The NIO has the resources and a moral obligation to resolve the issue.”
“I thank the Member for his question. It leads to an issue that you never want to hear in politics, which is the moral obligation. There is a belief among many Members that there is a moral obligation that the equal pay settlement should have covered those who served in the PSNI and the NIO. Moral obligations sometimes do not make it into budgets because we do not have the resources that we would like to have, as the Member understands. It is my firm view that the responsibility for the issue lies with the NIO and the British Government. I have written to Mr Brokenshire, who was recently appointed to the position of Secretary of State, and have asked him to pick up his obligations in the matter.”
“He should also note that, while the Committee has asked whether I have any communication of any type that might shed light on the matter, I have not. I am happy to have the opportunity to put that on the record. <BR /> <BR />Let me say one other thing. When I hear the party of Conall McDevitt and Declan Boyle come here and lecture others about the ethics of politics, I am not concerned because I have confidence in the people and their ability to see behind party politicking. I also have confidence in the people and those who serve them to make sure that they will get the answers that they deserve on this matter.”
“Mr McCrossan has been here only a short while, so he should try to keep his manners in the House, and we will keep our manners with him.”
“No. You have moved from having confidence in the Minister's opinions to being concerned about the Minister's point of view on these matters. Let me assure Mr McCrossan that, when I come to work each morning and face the issues of balancing the Budget; of finding £4·6 billion to fund the heath service; of making sure that our schools have the resources that they need; and of making sure that we are building, according to our plans, the art galleries, libraries and community centres that we need, the NAMA revelations about Jamie Bryson and Daithí McKay are very low on my totem pole. <BR /> <BR />It is worth stating again — I thank the Member for the opportunity — that I had no involvement in and no knowledge of the connections and communications between Mr McKay and the other individual, Mr Bryson.”
“I personally am confident, and one of the reasons why I am confident is that I see, at every turn, people from all professions, not least from the political profession but also from the highest ranks of business, accountancy and law who think that it is incumbent on us and that it is essential that we do not let them down. <BR /> <BR />I will say only one other thing to Mr McCrossan. Neither he or nor I have seen the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, but it is my feeling at this stage that, while I am very much in favour of an all-island commission of investigation, it will be down to the FBI, the NCA and the gardaí, probably in that order. It will be down to the law enforcement agencies finally to unravel and pull back the cloak that has surrounded the NAMA/Cerberus deal.”
“I thank the Member for his question. A lot of people are giving the Minister of Finance extra powers today and relying on me to do things that I am not empowered to do. I suggest to the Member that, rather than asking what my confidence is, he ask what is the confidence of the people of Ireland, North and South, and those further afield who were involved in the deal that we will get to the truth. We have to assume that people are confident. If they have trust in government and trust in the highest levels of business, law and accountancy, they have to be confident that we will get to the bottom of this scheme. If we do not, the upshot will be that we have let the people down.”
“They are supportive. I met many of the groups at the Rainbow Project centre earlier this year, and they would like a question on sexual identity to be included in the census.”
“I am minded to include a question on sexual identity, but, as with all matters related to the census, we will need the buy-in of the Assembly and the Executive. The next Irish census will be in 2021, and I suspect that they may go in the same direction. At this stage, I am minded to include a question on sexual identity.”
“Ba mhaith liom buíochas a thabhairt don Chomhalta as an cheist seo a chur. Last year, the statistics and research agency NISRA ran a consultation to assess what questions needed to be in the next census. Of the respondents who expressed an opinion, the vast majority indicated the need to have sexual identity data collected through the census. The NISRA response to the consultation was published in August, and research will now take place to test whether a sexual identity question could be included in the next census. That research will be completed by 2017-18, after which NISRA will publish the results and make a recommendation. <BR /> <BR />The census will be subject — this is the part that everyone else here likes — to the approval of the Assembly, which will provide the opportunity for full legislative scrutiny.”
“Very few redactions were retained, mainly relating to data protection issues. We released the name of the third nominee from the former Minister to Minister Noonan for the NAMA advisory committee. <BR /> <BR />I stand over the integrity of the 3,100 staff in the Department of Finance. I believe that all those people, especially those who have been working on the issue, want to see the truth about the Project Eagle deal coming out. You can be assured that every member of my staff will, like me, cooperate fully with any inquiry. There will be no hidden corners, and no information will be held back. That is what I have done since my appointment, and we will continue that. My staff are equally committed to that end.”
“Mr Ford wants me to take on new powers, and Mr Allister wants me to be transported to the past. Let me tell Mr Allister what I have done since my appointment in relation to the NAMA Project Eagle deal. I have been in touch with the NCA and asked for my own meeting to make sure that they have the full cooperation of my Department, that there is no other information that they need and that I am kept aware of how the investigation is proceeding. We also did a forensic audit of all the information relating to NAMA that was in our files, and we ensured that any additional information could be handed over to the Committee and that the authorities had all the information. We were able to hand over some additional information, Mr Allister, without redactions. In my view, those were unimportant redactions, and we were able to remove some of them.”
“However, I would not give up on the fact that, among the many givens, any commission of investigation set up by the Dáil or the Taoiseach or any individual appointed by the Taoiseach to scope it out will have the influence or ability to find out the information that they need north of the border.”