Máirtín Ó Muilleoir
South Belfast · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“Go raibh maith agat as an cheist sin. I think it must. I followed the Public Accounts Committee under my colleague Mr Swann, and I read the devastating October hearing when Ofgem appeared.”
“While the areas it will investigate will be wide-ranging, it will necessarily include key areas in which there has been huge public interest, including the development and roll-out of the RHI scheme by the then Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment; the signing off of the scheme by the then Department of Finance and Personnel; th…”
“I thank Mr Clarke for that question. I know that Mr Clarke was at the PAC hearing that Robin Swann had the wonderful occasion to chair. I would have paid money to attend that because it was certainly a difficult session for the PAC.”
“In relation to the question asked, I want to speak in particular of the seven months that I have been in the Department of Finance. I have been deeply impressed by the commitment, diligence and alertness of my officials to the RHI scandal. I mentioned previously alerting the Comptroller and Auditor General.”
“Ba mhaith liom buíochas a thabhairt don Chomhalta as an cheist sin. I think that any inquiry will ask what went wrong, where it went wrong, who was accountable and what happened. In that context, I am totally convinced that the decision to involve Ofgem in the RHI scheme was a major mistake. Ofgem has failed.”
“Therefore, I wish to reassure the public by setting out the steps that I think must be taken to ensure absolute openness and transparency. The arrangements I have detailed in this statement are intended to ensure this.”
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“I, too, thank the Member for his supplementary. This issue of payment to subcontractors and those farther down the line has really been in use since the Celtic tiger collapsed and a lot of people were left in the lurch. It has come up on my watch on several occasions, so there are a lot of people concerned about this, especially where public money is being spent. Our purpose when carrying out infrastructural investments is that we get the money paid promptly to the main contractor, but we want that money to be cascaded down through the entire value stream and worker stream of the contract. I want to make sure that that happens. Patsy McGlone had a separate meeting with me as the head of the all-party group on construction, and we touched on this issue and the issue of retentions.”
“Most recently, this has included the successful rollout of project bank accounts, as the Member will be aware. However, it also includes other practical measures, such as a requirement for project managers to monitor subcontractor payments at monthly progress meetings with the contractor. There is also a requirement for the client, main contractor and subcontractors to honour payments as they fall due by signing a fair payment charter.”
“It is public procurement policy that first-tier subcontractors are paid within 30 days, and the Central Procurement Directorate (CPD) has implemented a range of measures to ensure that subcontractors are paid promptly.”
“When I reduced to zero the rates for community and amateur sports clubs, that was welcomed universally, but we are also going to have to find a way to say that we think we can find extra money, not more reliefs, from the community to fund the services that the community needs and demands.”
“I am happy to look at all those issues, and this is another issue that has come up in relation to the immediate payment of rates. I am looking forward to the day when some Member stands up and says that, because we need more money for education, for health or for economic regeneration, they are suggesting somewhere that we remove a relief from. I am not going to be that person just yet, although I will have some views on it next week. I am not happy to review the change suggested by the Member at this minute, but I am sympathetic. On the other hand, someone will have to pay the rates to keep this society going forward.”
“I do not think that anyone believes that rate reliefs are sufficient in their sector, but, of course, farms and related buildings are not subject to rates at all. As well as that, for a farmer who needs to live on or near his or her farm, a reduction of 20% is applied to the capital value of the farmhouse. To use the term that Mr Durkan used, there are, in my view, generous reliefs for agricultural land and for farmhouses at this time.”
“I think that, like everyone else, they have to make a contribution to keeping the lights lit in the public services that we have. I have received the letter, and I am happy to receive any further representations, but I would not make any promises. I would not make any withdrawals on this particular answer just at the minute.”
“Ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabhail leis an Chomhalta as an cheist sin agus as a chuid físe. I thank the Member for his visionary powers, because it just so happens that his Committee has written to me to ask whether I would consider rate relief for credit unions. That followed hot on the heels of the first letter that I received, also from the Committee, asking for relief from corporation tax for credit unions. I have no doubt that they will mount up as well. The Member, in his city, has made a big contribution to the credit union movement on this island. I think that credit unions do a great job for society and the community. I am happy to look at it. I am a member of a credit union. When they are managed prudently, they sometimes make some money and distribute that to their members.”
“He should be aware that I do receive a fair bit of correspondence on this. It strikes me as genuine correspondence from people who are in hardship, who have moved into a new home, as you say, maybe a generation ago. They find that it is not easy or possible to rent the home. They have no family who wish to use it, and, therefore, they have been left with a problem that is not easily resolved, and they end up paying a bill each year for which they do not feel they get a reward. I am not minded right now to increase the threshold, but I am aware of that hardship. If the Member wants to write to me, maybe we can explore certain instances within that.”
“I vowed not to introduce more reliefs in the short time ahead. We will come forward with some proposals around small businesses. If the Member wants to write to me in that regard, he may do so.”
“That said, if the farmhouse is in poor repair and is no longer habitable without substantial restoration work, it can be removed from the valuation list and rates will not be payable. In assessing whether a property can be occupied as a home, Land and Property Services will take into account the character of the property and whether a reasonable amount of work would render it habitable.”
“I can appreciate that farmers who vacate an old farmhouse will not be happy paying rates on it whilst it lies empty. However, this is something that all owners of empty homes face, and they have the same choice of letting it out, selling it on or continuing to pay the rates. If we were to grant an exemption, I think that it would have to apply to everyone holding a vacant residential property. To do so would lose the Executive many millions of pounds a year in revenue, and that money, as I said earlier, helps pay for essential public services and investment — health, education and everything else that we have responsibility for. Our local councils would also lose out.”
“They should not be waiting for the Assembly to do more, and we will do more; they should be asking us to partner them in every way possible. Now is not the time, in my view, to sit on your hands.”
“The Alliance Party is always extending and expanding my powers into other Departments. As you know, I and my party wish to see a stepping-up of the pace of transfer of powers to councils in particular. I am a fan of the 11 councils, and I have met them to ask them if they will do more, and if they do more, we will meet them halfway. <BR /> <BR />The vital thing for all of us at the minute — I say this to every Assembly Member because I know that you are deeply engaged in your constituency — is that we need the councils and councillors to be more ambitious in the time ahead. Part of that is that they need to have more powers, but they should not be held back. I meet some councils that are not as ambitious or bold as others. My view is that every council needs to be as bold as possible in its vision and plans for the future.”
“Any proposals that I bring forward will have that at their very heart. <BR /> <BR />We will try to get the balance right. We want to raise revenue for these vital public services that everyone is demanding. No one is suggesting that we cut the funding to any front-line services. If we have to raise that revenue, we will need to find a fair and proportionate way to do that.”
“I am hopeful that we will do that next Tuesday. I want to cover a number of areas, and some of them came up in the study carried out by the University of Ulster. In particular, it said that the existing small business rate relief scheme is too diffuse and not focused enough, and I am taking that on board. I also like a proposal that they brought forward, which was about a special focus on geographical areas that perhaps have not prospered as much as we would like. So, I hope to bring forward those proposals next Tuesday, I believe. There will be plenty of time for the Assembly and the Executive to consider them. I hope that there will be buy-in. I think that everybody realises that the worst of the recession is over, thank goodness. We have an opportunity now to accelerate the recovery and move forward at pace.”
“They say that, if we do more for the hospitality providers, it will help tourism. Then we will get another example of a joined-up economy and joined-up government. I listened very carefully to the presentation that they made. I caught just a little bit when I attended the Finance Committee and Hospitality Ulster and NIIRTA were making a presentation there as well. I have to say that I do not agree with everything that they said, but I hope that, in short order, we can bring forward proposals that are more focused on independent retailers and, in particular, on the hospitality sector.”
“Thank you for raising that issue. I have visited Bangor as well. I had a lunchtime meeting with those involved in the hospitality business. It started out quite well; then, after 30 minutes, we got on to rates, and the second 30 minutes were more heated and contentious. <BR /> <BR />The problem is that we want to raise that £1·2 billion. We are trying to share the burden in an equitable fashion, but we have a tax on business, and that is called rates. I am not in favour of another raft of temporary measures, but I am impressed by the proposals put forward by Hospitality Ulster and NIIRTA under Glyn Roberts. I have listened very carefully to them, and I think that they talk a lot of sense. Hospitality is a big part of the small, independent economy of north Down, and Bangor in particular.”
“It is my intention to put forward more recommendations in that regard.”
“<BR /> <BR />Everything that I put forward must have Executive agreement, and, of course, the Assembly Committees will have their say as well. With the permission of the Assembly and the Executive, I will take some measures, and I hope that they will emphasise the fairness of the rating policy. We are talking here about business rates for non-domestic properties, but there is also the question of how we get a fairer system of domestic rates. We bring in £1·2 billion at the minute, and I know that you would like to see fairness. <BR /> <BR />There is also the idea of seizing opportunity. If young people are looking at an empty shop unit, whether it is on the Ormeau Road, in Ballymena or in Enniskillen, and saying that they would love to set up a business there, how can we give them the spur and encouragement to do that?”
“I thank the Member for his supplementary. I had the great pleasure of visiting Portrush the week before last to see the early preparations for the Open. I was very impressed by the commitment of not only Royal Portrush but the community to making sure that the benefits of the Open will be felt in Portrush, in particular, and across the region not only in 2019 but in the period ahead. It was very clear to me that there are still a number of properties in Portrush — you mentioned there, but it is true across the piece in many of our villages, towns and cities — that we want to encourage people to bring back into use, especially retail properties. In that regard, the urban development grant, which I do not have responsibility for, will, I think, play a huge part. That shows the necessity for joined-up government action.”
“Accordingly, I would like to bring forward a more targeted scheme, and I will bring proposals to the Assembly later this month — next week, I hope — on a range of measures that, taken together, will help to stimulate economic activity.”
“It is an almost empty Chamber, which does not do these questions justice. With your permission, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle, I will take questions 1 and 13 together. <BR /> <BR />The business rate relief scheme will be continued for another year to allow time for the recommendations from the policy evaluation to be introduced. This work was undertaken, as you know, by Neil Gibson's economic policy unit at the University of Ulster — it is not actually his economic policy unit, but he heads it. The study found that although the current scheme was a useful intervention during the recent downturn, it did not have an enduring economic impact on the local economy or those who gain from it. It was simply spread too thinly.”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I think that I was supposed to say, "I ask Members to support the measure, and I commend the regulations to the Assembly".”
“I hope that people are as positive when I come to the House suggesting ways to bring in more money to provide services to our community as they are today. <BR /> <BR />I agree with the Chairwoman that this is a good news day, from the First Step Stimulus package this morning to sorting out and giving additional support to our community amateur sports clubs.”
“<BR /> <BR />I will finish with a point that John O'Dowd made. This will cost us and our community £750,000, and it is the right decision. Given the positive impact that community amateur sports clubs have on community and society, the benefits are boundless. At the same time, someone has to take up that slack. We are transferring that over to all ratepayers. With regard to what Mr Smith and Mr O'Dowd said, we need to find a way to bring in more money in the time ahead. It is wonderful to be popular and to relieve clubs or other bodies of a rate burden — in this case, I am pleased that we can introduce 100% rate relief for community amateur sports clubs — but we will have to knuckle down and find ways to bring in more money.”
“I thank Mr Swann for bringing me down to Cullybackey and introducing me to people who are involved in a community amateur sports club. They show the positive benefits that community amateur sports have on the community for health, well-being and community solidarity. <BR /> <BR />I thank all Members who contributed to the debate. I take on board very seriously the point raised by the Chairwoman of the Committee and Philip Smith that we need to make sure that we are not in any way creating a situation that will make it more difficult for businesses in the hospitality sector to do well. Mr Wells mentioned golf clubs, and we may return to that in the future. I think that we have struck the correct balance. We are giving help to community amateur sports clubs that do not have bars, and they will get 100% relief. I think that that is right.”
“It would be cuckoo not to include our friends in the pigeon-racing fraternity.”
“<BR /> <BR />An interpretation provision is also provided in regulation 3 to ensure that the use of the terms "occasional licence" and "protection order" are consistent with their meaning in the Licensing (Northern Ireland) Order 1996. <BR /> <BR />Now that the technical overview has been provided, I very much look forward to hearing Members' comments. I commend the regulations to the Assembly.”
“<BR /> <BR />I will now turn to the technical detail of the draft regulations. Regulation 1 contains the citation, commencement and interpretation provisions. The rule will come into operation the day after it is affirmed by the Assembly. Regulation 2 provides that the reduction in the normal rate in accordance with article 31(3) and (4) of the Rates (Northern Ireland) Order 1977 shall be 100% for a hereditament that is occupied by a community amateur sports club and is not a hereditament on which a person may under licence, other than an occasional licence, or a protection order sell intoxicating liquor by retail, or in respect of which a club is registered under the Registration of Clubs (Northern Ireland) Order 1996.”
“<BR /> <BR />I feel that my Department has struck the correct balance between the range of interests at play at this particular time in ensuring that the extra relief is targeted towards sports clubs that meet the criteria that are laid out in the regulations that are before you. <BR /> <BR />Looking to the future, I know that my officials are looking at other possible adjustments in this area; for example, the wider treatment of golf clubs — raised repeatedly by Mr Wells at the last Committee — which is an area that is not without its inconsistencies and was discussed as part of the Committee's policy consideration. Those other areas are not, however, the subject of the debate. The scope of the subordinate legislation is, as Members know, fairly limited and largely dictated by the primary legislative provision.”
“It was the intention at that time to use the new power to enhance support to unlicensed community amateur sports clubs, subject to final consultation. <BR /> <BR />An eight-week targeted consultation took place earlier this year, which aimed to strike the correct balance between the views and interests of sporting organisations and the wider business and hospitality sector. These regulations now implement those consultation proposals, and I am happy to say that they will secure an increase to 100% rate relief for community amateur sports clubs without a licensed bar area on their premises.”
“As an deis seo a thabhairt dom an rún seo a chur os comhair an Tionóil inniu. <BR /> <BR />The regulations that are before you are the Rates (Increased Reduction for Recreational Hereditaments) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2016. Before turning to the content of the regulations, I think that it is important to provide Members with some brief background and context to the statutory rule. <BR /> <BR />The rule is made under a new enabling power that is provided by the Rates (Amendment) Act (Northern Ireland) 2016. That Act came before the House in the previous mandate at the beginning of this year. It amended existing rating legislation in order to provide a power to enhance rate relief subject to criteria prescribed in subordinate legislation.”
“All parties here have supported Professor Bengoa's work in trying to make sure that we manage change in the health service rather than manage crisis. Three officials came from the Basque Country, including the deputy Finance Minister, who, for what it is worth, ended up singing with the Belfast Community Gospel Choir and the former Minister of Justice on Friday night. They bring a really fresh perspective to matters fiscal, because the Basques raise all their finances and then pay Madrid. As you know, we have a different system, whereby the block grant comes here. In the Basque Country, that system engenders and nurtures a very entrepreneurial society. We have a memorandum of understanding with the Basques in other areas, including health. We have started a discussion with them, which will be of benefit to all of us.”
“I have no doubt that yesterday in London we got a more sympathetic hearing to requests that we made around our individual Budgets and the need to call a halt to austerity and have a fiscal stimulus. We received a more receptive ear to that message because we spoke together, so I thank the Ministers for forming a coalition — a Celtic coalition — on that matter. <BR /> <BR />It is also important to thank the chair of Newry, Mourne and Down Council, Councillor Fitzpatrick, because her council hosted the pre-meeting of the three Finance Ministers in Newry, in the heart of the area that will be affected most by a Brexit, if it happens. That shows that councils are working with the Executive to deliver. <BR /> <BR />In terms of the Basque autonomous region, we saw today the fruits of that work.”
“I thank the Member for controlling her giggles and for that question. The support that we have received from the Scottish Finance Secretary, Derek Mackay, and the Welsh Finance Secretary, Mark Drakeford, has been very refreshing. As I have said previously, when we speak with one voice, we represent 10 million people. More than that, it is true that when we speak together, the Treasury listens.”
“I refer the Member to Hansard to read the same answer.”
“I know that the Opposition fret about the process and how the process has changed, but the most important issue of all is that this system delivers for ordinary people, as it has today. As I said, Chris Conway of Translink is outside the door, because it has delivered for him. It has also delivered for roads maintenance, which I know will bring cheer to many of those who are still concerned that we do not budget adequately for roads maintenance at the start of the year. I know that that is a point that you have brought up, a LeasCheann Comhairle. It will bring some succour and comfort to those people that we are delivering. I am happy to focus on the minutiae and on process, but, ultimately, I want my focus to be on delivery, and that is what we are doing today.”
“We tell every Department to try to make allocations, as the Economy Minister did for the renewable heat incentive (RHI), in their own Department and that, if it is going to come forward with a bid, it has to be really serious, thought-out and value for money. The key point is that we do not want shopping lists or wish lists. If a Minister comes to me with a real pressure, we can discuss in concert with other Executive colleagues how that is met. <BR /> <BR />The system that we have today is evidence of that working. We now have a situation in which the key pressures facing the Executive in toto — the Executive across the board and not just one silo of education, agriculture or health — have been dealt with in an efficient and timely manner that exhibits value for money.”
“I thank the Member. I am going to bring a little bit of illumination into your life. You are absolutely right: the system has changed. The system that you and your colleagues would have been used to was a system in which people immediately drew up bids, usually as long as their arm and usually chancing their arm, and every Department said that it really could not do without moneys to meet these pressures. What we have come up with is an entirely different system. It is an Executive united in common purpose, where, every day, there are engagements with other Departments. In fact, in some of those Departments, we now have working groups that are trying to look into the future and predict problems coming down the tracks so that we can budget efficiently and effectively.”
“I said earlier, and I repeat, that I am pleased with the focus that the Economy Minister has brought to the issue. I am pleased with the strategies that his officials are working on. I look forward to the Economy Minister being in a position in the near future to come forward and give him, me and the House some comfort over how we are going to get to grips with the issue.”
“In fact, I think that there is an imperative on us to make sure that that does not happen because every pound that we spend in dealing with the overspend on RHI is a pound that we take away from vital front-line services.”
“I thank Mr Allister for his question. I am confident that it will not be repeated. I did not find money in this monitoring round, if you recall. I found it in June, when we placed £20 million in the centre as a sort of contingency because we did believe that that pressure would come this year. We estimated that perhaps there would be another £30 million. I am not sure, Mr Allister, whether you were in and caught the questions earlier. The Minister for the Economy, who has responsibility for this area, managed to make internal reallocations so that, thus far, at least we have not faced an additional £10 million pressure. I will repeat this because perhaps you were not in. He can be sure that it is my intention not to have this particular issue rolling on for 19 more years.”
“However, I want to stress that this is a small intervention of peace-building projects, and I hope that, next year, if the Executive agree, we can bring forward a much larger stimulus package that would make a real impact in many more constituencies and be much greater in scale than what is envisaged here today.”
“If Ministers had all the money that they requested from me, many more projects would be triggered and would be going ahead to start to receive the investment that they require. I am confident that we have projects ready and waiting. <BR /> <BR />The Member is exactly correct. If these projects cannot be delivered in a five-month period, they will not be delivered before the end of the financial year. That, therefore, precludes any project that would have to start from ground zero, as it were. We are talking about oven-ready projects, and I think that you will find in your constituency and certainly across Departments that Ministers have projects ready and waiting to come forward.”
“I thank the Member for his question. He and I are on the same page when we say that we are disappointed that it took a long time to get social investment fund money out the door. Whatever the misgivings and discussions in the Chamber, I think that he will be pleased that, in recent months, we have started to see letters of offer issued, whatever the questions around some of those, and we are seeing that injection of funds that was envisaged from day 1. He can take it from me that the £5 million that we have set aside for community regeneration projects will be spent between now and April. It is different from the funds that he referenced in one key respect, which is that it is for capital expenditure only. I am confident because, when I meet Ministers, they always have key projects that are in a queue waiting.”
“Like him, I hope that Translink goes from strength to strength and that rural services are not diminished in the time ahead but in fact are strengthened. This injection of funds into the fleet will be helpful towards that objective.”
“Ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabhail leis an Chomhalta as an cheist. I thank Mr McPhillips for his question. He could have caught the chief executive of Translink at lunchtime. He was outside the Building with buses that did not look terribly new to me, and he was there for a photocall in the wake of the news that I gave today, which is that we have put money aside from our stimulus package to buy buses. Some of those buses will be bought locally, which will give a boost to the local economy. I do not have the exact details of how the money will be spent. I think that the Member will be pleased that it will lead to an enhancement of the fleet, and it will mean that we truly have a 21st-century fleet to serve our people.”
“I thank the Member for her question and would be happy for her to put that question to Peter Weir. I welcome her welcome of the extra injection of capital funds into schools.”
“We will make sure that it opens up a discussion and conversation with the British about how we grow the economy in the time ahead and how they make sure that we have all the fiscal measures to do that, not just corporation tax. We are very much on course; it is not on the back burner at all.”